On the use of violence in society

One of the models that I use to organise my thinking of private-public trade-offs was developed by the Harvard economist Andrei Shleifer and various friends.  The basic story runs along the lines that all societies face a problem of bad behaviour – violence. So good societies suppress violence. Private violence (disorder) is suppressed by the state and state violence (dictatorship) is suppressed by mechanisms such as the rule of law and democratic accountability etc.

Good societies also develop norms against violence.

Ludwig von Mises explains this point in Liberalism:

 The liberal understands quite clearly that without resort to compulsion, the existence of society would be endangered and that behind the rules of conduct whose observance is necessary to assure peaceful human cooperation must stand the threat of force if the whole edifice of society is not to be continually at the mercy of any one of its members. One must be in a position to compel the person who will not respect the lives, health, personal freedom, or private property of others to acquiesce in the rules of life in society. This is the function that the liberal doctrine assigns to the state: the protection of property, liberty, and peace.

The terrorist attacks in New Zealand have revealed that a lot of people are somewhat disconnected from their moral compasses.  So let’s set out some basic principles:

  • It is wrong and immoral to celebrate the death of a fellow human being. I am guilty of this myself from time to time (Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, PW Botha …).
  • It is wrong and immoral to hate your fellow human being because they are different to you at some margin.
  • It is wrong and immoral to hate your fellow human being because their ancestors persecuted your ancestors.

Good societies develop norms and institutions that encourage better behaviour – cooperative behaviour – between individuals.

There is a lot of bad behaviour this weekend. From schadenfreude , to rationalisation, to political point scoring.  The social aversion to random violence and the social conventions that underpin that aversion need to be maintained.

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172 Responses to On the use of violence in society

  1. Behind Enemy Lines

    On the use of violence in society
    Posted on 1:17 pm, March 17, 2019 by Sinclair Davidson
    . . . good societies suppress violence. Private violence (disorder) is suppressed by the state and state violence (dictatorship) is suppressed by mechanisms such as the rule of law and democratic accountability etc. . . . The social aversion to random violence and the social conventions that underpin that aversion need to be maintained.

    So, what do we do when private violence is only selectively suppressed by the state? Or when the rule of law and democratic accountability fail to suppress de facto state violence? For example, last night’s politically-motivated violence against Fraser Anning will almost certainly go unpunished, just like all the far-left’s violence. What then?

  2. There is a lot of bad behaviour this weekend. From schadenfreude , to rationalisation, to political point scoring.

    I haven’t noticed any more than usual. I don’t think anyone on this site needs to be reminded to value the lives of other human beings.

    If you are suggesting that comments should be confined to support of the victims of terrorism, I think that is a strange dictum for a forum such as exists on Catallaxy Files.

    We live in a world that is exploding in terms of values, communications and conflict. We need to explore and examine every angle of this phenomenon. Examination of the motivation of the purveyor of this atrocity should not be off limits.

  3. stackja

    Leftists don’t like good societies.

  4. Sinclair Davidson

    What then?

    There is an election coming up. Vote for law and order candidates who are not idiots.

    I think that is a strange dictum for a forum such as exists on Catallaxy Files.

    My comments are being very general and are not solely directed at Cats.

    Leftists don’t like good societies.

    Indeed – the greatest threat to our way of life is not migrants.

  5. Behind Enemy Lines

    Sinclair Davidson
    #2961392, posted on March 17, 2019 at 1:34 pm
    What then?

    There is an election coming up. Vote for law and order candidates who are not idiots.

    Isn’t that how we got into our present situation?

  6. Watcher

    This web site has frequently published content explicitly denigrating and demeaning of muslims. It’s a bit rich to quibble now that a moron has acted on that messaging.

  7. Paul

    I think there’s well enough evidence around the world that unchecked immigration is exactly the greatest threat to our way of life. Quite simply our culture is superseded as we are seeing all over large swathes of the major metro’s on the east coast already and in further stages throughout Europe.

    One simply has their head in the sand if they cannot see this and the tensions it’s caused mostly because it’s rapid change. In one’s lifetime things used to change now we are seeing people grow up and finding the suburbs they grew up in unrecognisable from their childhood and hence shifting away.

    Using the NZ tragedy as an indirect way to imply that any disagreement on migration infers you support what happened is basically what this post is about and it’s a disgrace.

  8. Behind Enemy Lines

    Watcher
    #2961395, posted on March 17, 2019 at 1:37 pm
    This web site has frequently published content explicitly denigrating and demeaning of muslims. It’s a bit rich to quibble now that a moron has acted on that messaging.

    It also frequently publishes content explicitly denigrating and demeaning idiots. And yet . . . here you still are. What is one to make of that, I wonder.

  9. Sinclair Davidson

    Using the NZ tragedy as an indirect way to imply that any disagreement on migration infers you support what happened is basically what this post is about and it’s a disgrace.

    You are an idiot.

  10. rusty of Qld

    What if there are conflicting ideologues that heir adherents are brainwashed into following:
    1. Thou shalt not kill.
    2. kill those whom do not believe as you.

  11. Sinclair Davidson

    rusty of Qld – that is a law and order problem that Australia generally does not have.

  12. EvilElvis

    So when cultures clash that don’t share your enlightened principles you take the moral high ground and hide behind them? Libertarians….

  13. AussieMAGA

    Thank you for the reading, Brother Sinclair.

    Please turn your Bible to Hayek 3:16 where Brother Rafe will commence with the second reading.

  14. faceache

    Demography is everything.

  15. Cynic of Ayr

    Sinc said…

    It is wrong and immoral to celebrate the death of a fellow human being. I am guilty of this myself from time to time (Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, PW Botha …).
    It is wrong and immoral to hate your fellow human being because they are different to you at some margin.
    It is wrong and immoral to hate your fellow human being because their ancestors persecuted your ancestors.

    1 Muslims do this all the time, with tremendous glee and celebration. Therefore, they are wrong and immoral.
    2 Muslims do this all the time. They hate infidels, merely because they are not Muslims. Therefore, they are wrong and immoral.
    3 Muslims do this all the time. The Crusades are brought up as justification for Jihad – not that much justification is required. Therefore, they are wrong and immoral.
    Jeez, Sinc, you’re getting stuck into the Muslims today!

  16. Sinclair Davidson

    Demography is everything.

    I really love this argument. All my life I’ve been told this. “White people are being outbred by not-White people”. What a pathetic argument. Are you too lazy to bonk the missus and have a few more sprogs? Too important? Too impotent? Not only the the solution to this “problem” easy, it’s fun too.

  17. Tel

    Vote for law and order candidates who are not idiots.

    That narrows it down a bit.

    The ALP are out, because they are closely linked with unions who declare if you don’t like a law, just break it, doesn’t matter.

    The Greens are out because they are fruit loops. Likewise Animal Justice, and the rif-raf parties.

    The Nationals are out, because they largely sit on their dates and do nothing.

    The Liberal Party have on the whole acted like idiots, even in NSW where they have gone nuts on spendthrift projects that nobody ever asked for.

    I don’t mind AC, and the LDP. Neither of them are strong “law and order” platforms, although both of them support the concept of rule of law. Too many politicians see a bigger police force as more lawful, when I think it’s much more than that. Right now we have way too many laws, such that it’s difficult or impossible to follow them all. Getting rid of half would be a good start … strengthen the remaining half.

    It is wrong and immoral to hate your fellow human being because they are different to you at some margin.

    Agreed. Problem is any criticism is now interpreted as “hate” so we end up not being allowed to point out obvious cultural incompatibilities that cause serious friction. I don’t have many principles, but one of them is free speech … no one and nothing is beyond criticism. I don’t accept blasphemy laws, and I don’t accept that violence is a reasonable response to being offended.

    I also believe in freedom of conscience so people have an absolute right to change their religion (or abandon religion completely) if they personally decide what they were brought up with is not what they really deeply believe. That’s not negotiable with me … so while I don’t hate people for being different, I’m unwilling to allow others to use violence as a means to trap people inside their group either.

    It is wrong and immoral to hate your fellow human being because their ancestors persecuted your ancestors.

    Based on the “don’t be an idiot” rule above, it’s stupid to blindly ignore the cultural reasons why various ancestors persecuted each other. If you don’t understand what’s going on … you have nothing to work with. You can have multiple ways to run a society … but it certainly won’t work to try and run every different way all in the same place and time. There has to be some basic principles that everyone follows, and I don’t hate the people who think differently, but I sure won’t just bend over and do whatever they want simply because someone falsely accuses me of being “a hater” or whatever bullshit they are throwing this week.

  18. The social aversion to random violence and the social conventions that underpin that aversion need to be maintained.

    This is a strange post.

    I feel that the post is reflecting upon the Christchurch tragedy. But the atrocious violence of the shooter was hardly “random”. Nor have I seen any comment on the latest threads (maybe I’m wrong) that betray any sort of approval of what happened.

    So, what exactly is this post about? I really hope it is not about the need for self censorship.

    These tumultuous times need analysis, not censorship.

  19. Sinclair Davidson

    Cynic of Ayr
    No. You are wrong.

    “Muslims” do not do this. Plenty of people do this. Some are Muslims, others are Christians, yet others are Jews, some are white, black, mixed race. And so on.

  20. Muddy

    It is wrong to ACT upon any hatred you may feel, regardless of its origins.
    We are entitled to think what we like and mutter to ourselves and our pet iguanas if we so choose.

    Despite popular opinion that we only need to be edjamuhkated, attempts at thought control using the coercion available to the state has not thus far brought us to a kumbaya moment. It is very unlikely to either.

    Beyond that, I must admit that I do not understand the point of your post, Professor.

  21. Are you too lazy to bonk the missus and have a few more sprogs?

    Sinc, you know very well the reasons for decline of the birthrate as societies become more affluent, women enjoy more freedom and work opportunities, the poor do not need support of many children in their old age, strict religious rules are relaxed regarding contra conception, etc etc.

    Declining birthrate is, in fact, good for the survival of our species in respect to the limited resources (arguably) of our planet.

    If you want to contest the arguments of Douglas Murray, Mark Steyn & Christopher Caldwell on the very real threat for the West in the declining birthrate in western nations in comparison to Islamic countries, please do so.

  22. Tolerating the intolerant.

    How has that worked out in past times? I wonder.

  23. Chris M

    It is wrong and immoral… bad behaviour…

    If you are an Atheist according to who or what? You have no basis to even begin to explain such concepts. And you must agree that whatever this moral concept means to you it is likely to be quite different to the next person – whose belief is equally valid as yours.

  24. Sinclair Davidson

    please do so.

    I just did. I called “Bullshit”.

    I have faith in the institutions that hold society over the call of tribe or clan.

  25. EvilElvis

    I must admit that I do not understand the point of your post, Professor.

    You’re not an orphan there, Muddy.

  26. A Lurker

    “Muslims” do not do this. Plenty of people do this. Some are Muslims, others are Christians, yet others are Jews, some are white, black, mixed race. And so on.

    I think if you started counting skulls over the last two thousand years there are two ideologies that would dominate the podium, although Genghis Khan and Tamerlane would give them both a run for their money.

  27. Sinclair Davidson

    If you are an Atheist according to who or what? You have no basis to even begin to explain such concepts.

    Of course you do. Religion etc. are mechanisms of social control to encourage cooperation. See Harari on the stories we tell our selves to create a better world.

  28. Sinclair Davidson

    I think if you started counting skulls over the last two thousand years there are two ideologies that would dominate the podium

    The biggest threats to our way of life are liberal heresies. Communism, socialism, fascism. The latter however has been so comprehensively defeated that it is a trivial problem now.

  29. I have faith in the institutions that hold society over the call of tribe or clan.

    Wow! Big call, mate.

    At the present time, the institutions – especially law & order – are holding the fragile line in western countries. I believe that is basically because the present demographics. Sadly, I do not believe they will hold when those demographics change in a fundamental way. This is because some cultures – particularly fundamentalist religious cultures – do not (generally) integrate at the most basic level – intermarriage. Intermingling of peoples is the most successful way of assimilating difference.

  30. Tel

    I think it’s also fair to point out that all property rights are fundamentally backed by the threat of violence in defense of that property. With strong social norms in favour of one particular configuration of property rights (there are many possible options) this institutional violence can be minimized because most people most of the time follow the established norm. However, if you don’t have strong norms, and people no longer respect the established configuration of property rights the only options are strengthen the institutional threat of violence (i.e. give more powers to the police state) or abandon your property.

  31. Sinclair Davidson

    This is because some cultures – particularly fundamentalist religious cultures – do not (generally) integrate at the most basic level – intermarriage.

    Not seeing it. Religious people tend to have firmer views on law and order than others.

  32. Tel

    The biggest threats to our way of life are liberal heresies. Communism, socialism, fascism. The latter however has been so comprehensively defeated that it is a trivial problem now.

    Fascism is the embrace of big unions, big business, and officially sanctioned religion under the umbrella and control of centralized state power. The word has been comprehensively deprecated … but if you think this structure of governance has been defeated I’d say do a bit more reading and pay attention to what’s going on around you. The corporatist state is more powerful than ever … and it seems people love it that way, or perhaps only pretend to, but probably that makes no difference.

  33. A Lurker

    The biggest threats to our way of life are liberal heresies. Communism, socialism, fascism. The latter however has been so comprehensively defeated that it is a trivial problem now.

    I dunno, 270 million is not to be sneezed at.

  34. Sinclair Davidson

    Tel – I understand the combination of state control over private resources to be fascism too. But it is not a short hop, skip and a jump from the excessive regulatory state to actual fascism.

  35. Sinclair Davidson

    Impressive to be sure. Yet over 1400 years and including colonial expansion and empire building etc.

  36. Religious people tend to have firmer views on law and order than others.

    Surely yes! Their institutions of law & order!

    This is a generalisation, of course. Jewish populations have adapted through the ages so that their followers can live and flourish within many cultures. There are other examples. Others, such as Islamic populations have strong sanctions against intermarriage and tolerate western institutions, while seeking exemptions where feasible. Indeed, some of the authors quoted above (Steyn, Murray etc) believe that, as their numbers grow, so do their demands re exemptions – both social & legal. From recollection, I think they argued that at 10% of the population, the pressure on (western) institutions becomes precarious.

  37. John Constantine

    First Saturday in April is the opening of the stubble quail season.

    The older demographic of Mediterranean gents that used to keenly attend the opening have dwindled, and Lebs have taken their place.

    Only three Friday nights to go until the day where traditionally carloads of armed strangers, some in camouflage gear drive up to isolated farmhouses at breakfast time to see if there is a chance of a shot in the back paddock.

    Nothing ever really goes wrong, but over time you notice that integration is not occurring and that the carloads of armed strangers are now happy to chat amongst themselves in their native tongue on your doorstep instead of english, which never used to happen.

  38. Elle

    I really love this argument. All my life I’ve been told this. “White people are being outbred by not-White people”. What a pathetic argument. Are you too lazy to bonk the missus and have a few more sprogs? Too important? Too impotent? Not only the the solution to this “problem” easy, it’s fun too.

    Well said.
    Too lazy and selfish, I say.

  39. Why is my last comment “under moderation”?

    I am always considered in my comments & this post was particularly inoffensive.

    [Comments containing a word from a list go into automoderation. Your post had such a word. Sinc]

  40. Sinclair Davidson

    I think they argued that at 10% of the population, the pressure on (western) institutions becomes precarious.

    Yes _ I’ve heard the 10% number before and the argument before. And … I’m not buying it. Is there any empirical evidence of this having happened?

  41. Thank you – I see it was released from moderation.

  42. None

    Not seeing it. Religious people tend to have firmer views on law and order than others.

    The original comment was referring to inter marriage not kaw and order. You know like Christiana marrying an atheist, atheists marrying Buddhists. How common is Muslim marriage to non Muslim? Marriage is one of the greatest binders of any society because it binds families across religious, tribal cultural, language and other divides ( something gay marriage can never do by the way). Traditionally it’s been the working class that’s more likely to inter marryhere in Australia – in other words marry outside of their ethnic group or religious denomination etc.. The working class has been generally far more inclusive then their goody two shoes inclusive Elite Masters (this is why the Greens is the party of rich old white males). What do the Muslim ghettos in Europe tell you?

  43. Elle

    There is a lot of bad behaviour this weekend. 

    What has happened has certainly divided usually like-minded peeps.

    We are fascinating creatures.

  44. EvilElvis

    Too lazy and selfish, I say.

    I’m not sure why anyone would play the man on what is a factual observation. We should be drawing a line from the institutional keepers of society that have fought tooth and nail to emasculate their host cultures resulting in demographic shifts and low birth rates.

  45. max

    “Muslims” do not do this. Plenty of people do this. Some are Muslims, others are Christians, yet others are Jews, some are white, black, mixed race. And so on.

    Come on. Where have we seen the equivalent of Muslims out in the streets shooting off guns and celebrating a massaccre ? I don’t know of Christian or Jewish crowds out on the streets slapping each other on the back when they hear of Muslims being slaughtered. Or are you thinking of individual Cats saying they are not surprised that someone in NZ has hit back. It’s a bit of a stretch to see Mr Anning’s comments in this light, too.

  46. Tel

    But it is not a short hop, skip and a jump from the excessive regulatory state to actual fascism.

    It’s happened pretty darn quick in the past. Look how fast the big corporates jumped into political correctness and public virtue signalling. Remember only 20 years ago people could go to a comedy act and see something funny? People were not afraid to admit at work they might support free market concepts? How little of the public discourse even remotely considers what’s going on here.

    Your argument is that sure we are on a slippery slope but hey the slope might be slightly longish so don’t worry about it, we can call that “comprehensive defeat”. That doesn’t comfort me a whole lot.

  47. Sinclair Davidson

    How common is Muslim marriage to non Muslim?

    Let’s play the word substitution game here?

    How common is Jewish marriage to non Jewish?
    How common is practising Christian marriage to non practising Christian?
    How common is atheist marriage to non atheist?
    How common is [insert any identifiable group here] marriage to non [insert any identifiable group here]?

  48. Yes _ I’ve heard the 10% number before and the argument before. And … I’m not buying it. Is there any empirical evidence of this having happened?

    Obviously, no contemporary western country has yet seen its institutions overthrown – because those comparative numbers have not been reached. From recollection, the argument is based on observation of the increasing pressure as numbers increased – particularly the emergence of “no-go zones” for police in French/Swedish etc municipalities. The latter is so well documented & any search of the internet will document it.

    I will drag out my copies of the writers mentioned previously, but the Formula 1 race beckons soon on TV. Please don’t make me waste the afternoon proving my point!

  49. Sinclair Davidson

    Or are you thinking of individual Cats saying they are not surprised that someone in NZ has hit back.

    I think many people here have guilty consciences. Actually I’m thinking of a lot of social media I’ve read over the weekend, including the Cat and Facebook and twitter and also the MSM too.

  50. Sinclair Davidson

    Obviously, no contemporary western country has yet seen its institutions overthrown – because those comparative numbers have not been reached.

    Hmmmmmmmm. Please – go watch the grand prix.

  51. rickw

    Not seeing it. Religious people tend to have firmer views on law and order than others.

    Most people who have opinions on this don’t live in the right (wrong) places.

    They don’t see the insertion and complete lack of integration of an alien culture.

    There is a big fat politician built fault line right through Australia and it is only going to get fixed one of two ways.

    De-islamification or Civil War. Neither of these would happen quickly, but they are inevitable.

  52. None

    Happy to play the substitution game Sinclair.

  53. How common is Jewish marriage to non Jewish?
    How common is practising Christian marriage to non practising Christian?
    How common is atheist marriage to non atheist?
    How common is [insert any identifiable group here] marriage to non [insert any identifiable group here]?

    Sinc, what have you eaten for lunch???

    Just about every category above renders examples that are common – at least in my experience.

  54. Lilliana

    Not seeing it. Religious people tend to have firmer views on law and order than others.

    Yes law and order as per there own culture. Not that of the nation they may be residing in. They are citizens in name only living in ethic enclaves, nations within nations, waiting for a critical mass so they can start agitating for more “rights”. For gods sake look at the UK and Europe.
    And the idea that the answer is to out breed them is just plain stupid.

  55. Sinclair Davidson

    Your argument is that sure we are on a slippery slope but hey the slope might be slightly longish so don’t worry about it, we can call that “comprehensive defeat”.

    No – I think my argument is that the slippery slope we’re on is not going to end up in fascism. A different set of high social costs but not central and southern Europe of the 1930s and 1940s or South America in 1950s and 1960s type costs.

  56. Leo G

    The terrorist attacks in New Zealand have revealed that a lot of people are somewhat disconnected from their moral compasses.

    I interpret that to mean the incident may prompt us to display our ethical weaknesses and to act in ways affecting others (without ethical bearings).
    Sure. The incident and its consequences present ethical challenges which vary according to a person’s situation.
    Of course, I’m commenting from a position of relative safety. It’s been instructive to see the faux pas of some who are more exposed. Our PM, for instance, appears to have reached for the wrong ideological compass and appears even more lost than last week.
    BTW, those basic principles are really just ethical decisions you have made on the basis of principles not stated. For instance it is not necessarily “wrong and immoral to celebrate the death of a fellow human being”- it depends on salient factors. Any funeral is a celebration of a death.

  57. JC

    Where have we seen the equivalent of Muslims out in the streets shooting off guns and celebrating a massaccre ?

    Celebrating? No, but a lot of them look pretty satisfied with what they had done.

  58. Sinclair Davidson

    Any funeral is a celebration of a death.

    A funeral is a celebration of a life.

  59. cohenite

    I have faith in the institutions that hold society over the call of tribe or clan.

    That’s the point; both the left and islam subvert, infiltrate and destroy those institutions. For the left its Gramsci.

    Peter Hammond documented the impact of increasing muslim populations in non muslim countries in his book Slavery, Terrorism and Islam – The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat: simply put as the % of muslims increase so does every marker of social strife from enclaving and disenfranchisement of non-muslims in muslim dominated areas, criminality, terrorism, demands for and actual introduction of elements of sharia law, use of non-muslim infrastructure such as human rights legislation and bodies to facilitate Islamic values and sharia law.

    Clive Kessler, emeritus professor of sociology and anthropology at the University of NSW, details how essentially every muslim either actively/violently or passively supports the replacement of Western secular, democratic values with sharia law. The 15% of muslims who do not do this are what Kessler calls modernist, reform-minded and democratic. That is they are not muslims.

    Not doubt there are many muslims who believe islam can undergo a reformation like Christianity. I don’t think it can. I think islam is a military ideology masquerading as a religion or more precisely a cult.

  60. Sinclair Davidson

    Where have we seen the equivalent of Muslims out in the streets shooting off guns and celebrating a massaccre ?

    Thankfully the New Zealand terrorist attack clip got taken down.

  61. Sinc, my first thought was that you are just placing the Devil’s Advocate today.

    However, I think the terrible event in NZ has unbalanced a lot of people. I encountered some flack from a friend because I had dared to read the shooter’s Manifesto (actually I could only get through 26 out of the 74pp). As a person who “has to understand” the ebb and flow of human affairs, I was flabbergasted at this response.

    If we are going to censor our understanding of history, we are in deep s–t!

  62. rickw

    And the idea that the answer is to out breed them is just plain stupid.

    Apart from the fact that it gives you more boots on the ground in the Civil War.

  63. Tom

    The biggest threats to our way of life are liberal heresies. Communism, socialism, fascism. The latter however has been so comprehensively defeated that it is a trivial problem now.

    And yet the streets (and social media) are full of fascist Brown Shirts — comically calling themselves “Antifa” — who are denying ordinary citizens’ right to free expression, shutting down political rallies they don’t like and intimidating anyone who speaks against the mob. And, in most cases, they’re defended by the state.

    As well, the role of the “news” media, especially the TV networks, in the past 48 hours in enforcing Correct Thinking about terrorism has been disgraceful and its incuriosity about the motives of the New Zealand mass murderer astonishing. It is utterly useless as a source of credible information.

    It’s what I imagine it was like living in the Soviet Union in the 1970s, with the media seeing its role as providing disinformation on behalf of the state.

  64. None

    The 2010 counter terrorism white paper quite clearly stated that Islamic terrorism posed the greatest threat to our national security. Now that paper was flawed in many ways because it showed the very distinct divide in our security and intelligence community as to cause and mitigation but it was unanimous in identifying the threat and I am not aware that that has changed significantly in recent years given the rise of ISIS, Lindt etc. There may be an emerging threat from fringe nutters like Neo Nazis or antifa but I don’t think that they will ever approached The Body Count of Islamic terrorism because they are not supported by a widespread mainstream entrenched Global ideology or as one scholar terms it: a total World system, namely Islam. Again that doesn’t mean that every Muslim is a terrorist because clearly they are not but all Islamic terrorism is fuelled by Islamic ideology and theology which is supported by Muslims.

  65. Chris M

    Of course you do….

    So explain how then. Can’t tight?

    I really like your views on Economics Sinc but when you get in these trolling moods on other topics is gets quite weird.

  66. Sinclair Davidson

    vicki – I’m not censoring anyone.

    In fact I get into a lot of strife because I don’t censor opinion.

    My point is very simple – a lot of people are behaving badly following the NZ terrorist attack. Not just here at the Cat either.

  67. JC

    Cronkite , get real. The real issue is leftism that’s the cancer in western countries. Everything else metastasizes from this scourge.

    At this very moment the D’rats who have a chance of winning the three seats of government in the US appear to be batting for socialism and green leftism in a pretty big way. In May this year, Australia will go to a government that sounds like it’s plagiarizing most of Corbyn’s policies, and the electorate appears to be happy to go along with it – at least the majority of voters will. You’re a certifiable doctor, so you ought to know what is a proper diagnosis.

  68. Tel

    I really love this argument. All my life I’ve been told this. “White people are being outbred by not-White people”. What a pathetic argument. Are you too lazy to bonk the missus and have a few more sprogs? Too important? Too impotent? Not only the the solution to this “problem” easy, it’s fun too.

    Some women might feel inclined to do more in their life than operate as baby factories … hence deciding that a smallish family of one or two kids is sufficient. People familiar with modern medical breakthroughs might have heard of “birth control” which is legal and easily available these days, thanks to socially liberal policies and a moderately free market pharmaceuticals industry. People not familiar could be interested in asking their GP about the possibilities.

    I support a woman’s decision to have a small family if that’s a better lifestyle choice. Having fewer children means more resources go into the upbringing of each child … on the whole you get better educated adults. It’s known as a “Type I” survival strategy, and depends on low infant mortality, with good return on investment for the effort you put into the upbringing of your child. It’s a balance between quality of life, and simply living to reproduce.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_curve

  69. None

    Yes thankfully the New Zealand terror attack clip got taken down even though there are countless copies out there still. I for one am glad that I was never tempted to view it but now we have images of the usual blood thirsty protests in places like Pakistan and Bangladesh. Now imagine if we held such protest here after the Lindt siege or Curtis Cheng’s assassination or even after Bali.

  70. My point is very simple – a lot of people are behaving badly following the NZ terrorist attack. Not just here at the Cat either.

    OK, fine. But I just haven’t seen it – thus my comments.

    But, in any case, your insinuations in your original post were, I think, OTT.

  71. Sinclair Davidson

    Tel – indeed. I’ve mostly heard the outbreeding argument from men. When I have heard it from women my first question is always how many kids do you have? I eventually ask that of males too.

  72. rickw

    So good societies suppress violence.

    No. They ensure that violence is not suppressed, but rather appropriately controlled and directed. Punishment for misuse. No punishment for appropriate use.

    Castle doctrine laws are an example of directing rather than suppressing.

    Gun confiscations are an example of attempting to suppress. Inherently unjust of course, you deprive people of the ability to threaten violence or do violence when it is appropriate eg. Defending themselves in their own home.

  73. None

    No I’m definitely with Sinc on the children argument. But libertarian ideology actually discourage family formation. It’s one of the many reasons why I’m not a libertarian because the family that is one of the strongest bulwarks against state authoritarianism and libertariansism don’t support ( no I said support not mandate) the natural family. Australian libertarians are probably among the most anti-family proponents in our country.

  74. max

    JC, those are military in uniform. A bit different to ordinary people rushing on to the streets in spontaneous glee at a massacre or a bombing. I don’t recall Christians or J**s in similar displays, nor would they find support for their actions in the received wisdom of their sacred traditions if they did.

    Thankfully the New Zealand terrorist attack clip got taken down.

    Yes, that tends to undermine your point.

  75. JC

    JC, those are military in uniform.

    True, that makes it much better. I’m now convinced.

  76. cohenite

    Head prefect I did say both the left and islam subvert the institutions of the West. If you think the left is worse than islam then I’m not going to argue with you except to say that islam has been doing it much longer than the left.

  77. Sinc, if you had have argued that discussion of the shooter (& his motives) should be avoided because he fundamentally wanted to be an “accelerant” of societal division on immigration etc – I would have agreed to some extent.

    But your generalised implications (even accusations) were unwarranted.

  78. Chris M

    there are many muslims who believe islam can undergo a reformation like Christianity. I don’t think it can.

    The Moslem reformation has been underway for at least five decades now. Many are returning to the literal teachings of the Koran, hence the global rise in violence. The outcome is the opposite of the Christian reformation – as would be obvious if you’ve studied both books.

  79. JC

    Cronkite

    How does 2.6% of the population undermine the 97.4%.

    What you should be arguing is how 25% of the population who are hard leftist lunatics are impacting the rest? And they are!

  80. JC

    If you think the left is worse than islam then I’m not going to argue with you except to say that islam has been doing it much longer than the left.

    The left is worse in every single way possible. It’s not even a contest. We can turn off the immigration tap any time we want.

  81. Iampeter

    It is wrong and immoral to celebrate the death of a fellow human being. I am guilty of this myself from time to time (Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, PW Botha …).
    It is wrong and immoral to hate your fellow human being because they are different to you at some margin.
    It is wrong and immoral to hate your fellow human being because their ancestors persecuted your ancestors.

    I don’t think this is a good principle on the matter at all.
    If you can’t celebrate the death of evil people then on what moral grounds are you opposing the death of good people?
    You can’t both sympathize with the victim and the perpetrator.
    Morality requires you to be able to tell the difference and justice requires you to judge people accordingly.

    The better principle on this would be, that men are rational and volitional beings and those who want to live by their own judgement, to the best of their ability, are the moral among us and should be respected.
    Those who are irrational, delusional, want to cheat reality and get away with it, are the immoral ones among us and should be hated righteously.
    Those who cross the line from merely being irrational, to using force against others, as the NZ shooter did, violate rights and should be punished in accordance with their crime. This guy makes a good case for why the death penalty should exist. He does not deserve to live out his days catered to in prison, believing himself to be some kind of notorious, anti-hero.

    In any case, all of the above requires the rejection of two thousand years of Christian altruism, which preaches the exact opposite, which is why we have all our problems today.

    People are not, “somewhat disconnected,” from their moral compasses, they have the entire concept of morality completely backwards.

  82. Sinclair Davidson

    But your generalised implications (even accusations) were unwarranted.

    What implications and accusations precisely are unwarranted?

    Is it incorrect to say, “The terrorist attacks in New Zealand have revealed that a lot of people are somewhat disconnected from their moral compasses.”
    or
    “There is a lot of bad behaviour this weekend. From schadenfreude , to rationalisation, to political point scoring. The social aversion to random violence and the social conventions that underpin that aversion need to be maintained.”

    Which one of those two statements is unwarranted?

  83. Leo G

    A funeral is a celebration of a life.

    It can be that too, celebrating a rite of passage.

  84. max

    True, that makes it much better. I’m now convinced.

    Boom, boom !

    I just let go with a couple of rounds from my Kalashnikov in the back yard.

  85. None

    Islam explicitly indicates that only males are allowed to marry people of the book (Christians and Jews) whereas women are not allowed to marry outside Islamic faith, unless the man converts to Islam. 

    And there’s a very simple reason for this it’s because every child born of the couple is automatically a Muslim and in the case of divorce which is easy peasy in Islam the child automatically goes to the father. You can’t have a child going to a non Muslim father. Just think through all the implications.

  86. rickw

    The Moslem reformation has been underway for at least five decades now. Many are returning to the literal teachings of the Koran, hence the global rise in violence. The outcome is the opposite of the Christian reformation – as would be obvious if you’ve studied both books.

    Yep, now the boot of colonialism is off their throat, they are getting right back to doing exactly what their book says.

    There is no theological basis for a reformation in islam. Any reformation needs to be founded in the contents of their book. It just isn’t there.

  87. Elle

    Sinc, I commend you for hosting a blog that clearly accommodates people who do not share your views. I don’t think there is any other forum like it. But you are South African born – tough as and with much testicular fortitude.

  88. None

    …Islam explicitly indicates that only males are allowed to marry people of the book (Christians and J-ws) whereas women are not allowed to marry outside Islamic faith, unless the man converts to Islam. 

    And there’s a very simple reason for this it’s because every child born of a Muslim ( either mother or father or both) is automatically a Muslim and in the case of divorce which is easy peasy in Islam the child automatically goes to the father. You can’t have a child going to a non Muslim father. Just think through all the implications. Good luck with the apostasy part.

  89. Elle

    *accommodates some, not all

  90. Leo G

    Morality requires you to be able to tell the difference and justice requires you to judge people accordingly.

    Broken compass.

  91. Is it incorrect to say, “The terrorist attacks in New Zealand have revealed that a lot of people are somewhat disconnected from their moral compasses.”
    or
    “There is a lot of bad behaviour this weekend. From schadenfreude , to rationalisation, to political point scoring. The social aversion to random violence and the social conventions that underpin that aversion need to be maintained.”

    Which one of those two statements is unwarranted?

    You chose to specifically criticise “rationalisation” , for instance. So..what’s so bad about rationalisation per se?

    The problem, Sinc, is that censoriousness is built into your post. And that has been apparent to many others who have commented in this thread.

  92. None

    Try again. I’m definitely getting a new phone:

    I’m definitely with Sinc on the children argument. But libertarian ideology actually discourages family formation. It’s one of the many reasons why I’m not a libertarian because the family is one of the strongest bulwarks against state authoritarianism and libertarianism doesn’t support (note I said support, not mandate) the natural family. Australian libertarians are probably among the most anti-family proponents in our country.

  93. Sinclair Davidson

    It’s one of the many reasons why I’m not a libertarian

    More likely you can’t get a girlfriend.

  94. Sinclair Davidson

    You chose to specifically criticise “rationalisation” , for instance. So..what’s so bad about rationalisation per se?

    Rationalising murder? People talking about pay back? Really?

  95. Muddy

    In a structural sense, the ideologies we lump together as ‘The Left’ have arguably caused more damage to our form of civilisation to this point in time than has Islam. The weakening from within has allowed external enemies such as Islam, an entry point, a less risky alternative to a frontal assault on strong walls. This undermining and rot from within will continue to weaken us, and keep open the side gate to Islam or other potential intruders.

    So yes, I agree that Islam is not the greatest existential threat that western democracies face. However it IS A THREAT, and in recent decades, a more visible one than the insurgents and traitors among us. The solution to the external enemy appears more obvious than the internal danger. Acknowledging the latter will involve bitter recriminations, and require something greater than the apathy and decadence of the previous five or six decades.

    The gate DOES need to be shut, or at the very least, guarded more responsibly.

  96. stackja

    Some immortalized while certain other bombers and car drivers less so? Why does the MSM make much of some events and less of others? Seems little solidarity with Christian and J-wish over some events.

  97. Tel

    And there’s a very simple reason for this it’s because every child born of a Muslim ( either mother or father or both) is automatically a Muslim …

    Hey that’s interesting … works the same way if you are Chinese.

    Beijing claims ownership of every expat Chinese family, anywhere in the world … and works on the “by any means necessary” principle to keep those people obedient.

    By the way … recently the Hindu’s started doing it. The current Hindu Nationalist movement frowns on anyone born a Hindu who might change allegiance. They don’t exactly threaten them with death, but let’s say they can make your life a bit uncomfortable.

  98. Cassie of Sydney

    “Muddy
    #2961634, posted on March 17, 2019 at 4:11 pm
    In a structural sense, the ideologies we lump together as ‘The Left’ have arguably caused more damage to our form of civilisation to this point in time than has Islam.

    I think that the greatest danger to the west is the toxic alliance between the left and Islam.

  99. Rationalising murder? People talking about pay back? Really?

    Well honestly, I really haven’t seen, read, or heard that.

  100. Watcher

    I note that some here refer to the murder of 50 people at prayer as hitting back. Those of you who cheer on this vile action deserve what you get. Calling you idiots is an insult to idiots

  101. Leo G

    I note that some here refer to the murder of 50 people at prayer as hitting back. Those of you who cheer on this vile action deserve what you get. Calling you idiots is an insult to idiots

    Why do you so insult yourself?
    If you were more observant, you might have noted that a commenter used the word “rationalise” out of context and that was highlighted by the host. That’s about as close as any here made to the reference you claim.

  102. Elle

    Watcher, it has been interesting to peruse the open forum and note those who think “meh” to the terrorist attack in Christchurch and in fact “cheer it on”. Very revealing … but not surprising, if you follow the open forum.

  103. Dr Fred Lenin

    One remarkable point about the Cristchurch incident , there is not ONE mention of Trump on the front pages of New York Times or Washington Post ,has someone found a cure for Trump Syndrome ?
    The disinformants are speechless ,someone has killed a bunch of their favourite people ,Good Gaia what disaster will be next ?

  104. Sinclair Davidson

    Fred – note my point about political point scoring.

  105. Boambee John

    JC at 1540

    The left is worse in every single way possible. It’s not even a contest. We can turn off the immigration tap any time we want.

    While the fascist left effectively controls government through their numbers in Parliament, their street thugs, and the bulk of the media, we can not turn off the immigration tap, ever.

    Sinistra delenda est!

  106. Keith Forwheels

    In recent decades Islam has been reweaponised by totalitarian technocratic elites as but one of a suite of levers by which to force the broad proletariat to demand to be stripped of their rights in the name of “safety” – they wish for people to demand their servitude and enslavement as a precondition to be able to live a peaceful life, but of course such “safety” is a mere illusion.

    This is not a “left” or “right” issue per se, the major policitical parties are effectively a unity ticket as they are the proxy agents for the cause. They share agreement on the overall direction of travel. All that separates them are differences over the speed of the voyage and which special interest groups are to be more enriched along the way.

    JC rightly says immigration could be turned off easily however that is never going to happen, because it’s not the point of how we’ve got here, or where it’s intended to go. It is intended, in fact, designed, to escalate.

    Knuckle Dragger rightly points out (on another thread) that it only gets worse from here, and to “gird your loins”. Correct. Unfortunately it’s only likely to happen as we’re all looking at the proximate percieved threat, not the underlying cause. And discussion of that cause is strictly forbidden. It should not be, and people who seek to understand it should not have their motivations questioned or denigrated.

    Assigning collective guilt to individuals based on any form of group identity is a weapon that is only ever ultimately useful to the destroyers who seek to divide and conquor while they hide in the shadows – once blood starts to flow in the streets of the countries where great political, economic, legal and religious traditions once flourished is when they really start to win.

    Are we there yet?

  107. cohenite

    The 21stC is and will continue to be the century of islam:

  108. Behind Enemy Lines

    And here we go, right on cue:

    Scott Morrison speaks out against Fraser Anning over egg-thrower hit
    Rosie Lewis
    THE AUSTRALIAN
    March 17, 2019

    Scott Morrison has called for Fraser Anning to face the “full force of the law” after he hit and punched a teenager who had egged him, amid growing condemnation of the Queensland senator’s divisive comments in the wake of the Christchurch terrorist attack.

    One of our elected representatives reacts – reacts – to politically motivated violence against him. And before the laundry’s dry, the Prime Minister himself is whipping on the magistracy to punish Anning under the full force of law.

    Anarcho-tyranny, here we are. Violence is wrong – wrong when you do it – so don’t you dare defend yourself!

    This next election is going to be a proper wild goose chase if I’m meant to ‘vote for law and order candidates who are not idiots’.

  109. Tel

    Rationalising murder? People talking about pay back? Really?

    You have committed to the idea of “Law and Order” but isn’t the justice system nothing more than a mechanism for institutional payback? Admittedly our legal system no longer includes the death penalty but we do take people’s lives away from them.

    Seems hard to believe you are against the concept of payback per say. Maybe you prefer a more organized process with checks and balances, instead of a vigilante who operates as instantaneously the executioner as well as the sole decision maker.

    What would Judge Dredd do?

  110. A Lurker

    Impressive to be sure. Yet over 1400 years and including colonial expansion and empire building etc.

    Yet little to no alteration in their fundamental behaviour – although, there was a lull for awhile when Atatürk implemented his reforms in Turkey (which held for a short while) and then there was a bright spot for a decade or two when women in Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan etc were allowed to wear western dress.

    Then the light was turned out, darkness returned, and that mountain of skulls just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

  111. Regarding demography and claims made by Mark Steyn et al that once you reach a critical percentage of Muslims, there is no turning back.

    Indian sub continent. Had to be busted up.
    South-East Asia (Malaysia, Indonesia)
    Former Republic of Yugoslavia (and the enclave of converts in Bosnia)
    Lebanon. Still majority Christian at the last census in 1932. Brigitte Gabriel has first hand accounts of what happens when Muslims reached critical mass.

    I’d say there was enough evidence to at least take Steyn et al seriously.

  112. faceache

    Demography is everything. Hey Sinc, I have 5 children, 4 grandchildren , so far. It was fun while it lasted you whippersnapper, you.

  113. faceache

    I won’t see it in my life time but in 50 years time the legislative bodies in many Western nations will be muslim dominated. Maybe by then some folks will realise that Sharia law is not great idea.

  114. candy

    Well, the shocking events make it more likely that political commenters, journalists and media people really can’t discuss immigration numbers, asylum seekers, Islamic terrorism or any terrorism, no matter the intent of just discussions and general talk.

    The situation is too fragile for that. Always possible another attack of some sort by some dangerous person. I don’t know whether journalists etc can be held responsible as the Left are saying about the Right, but I certainly understand reluctance to discuss issues that were formally discussed.

  115. rickw

    Scott Morrison has called for Fraser Anning to face the “full force of the law” after he hit and punched a teenager who had egged him, amid growing condemnation of the Queensland senator’s divisive comments in the wake of the Christchurch terrorist attack.

    Slo Mo gets more odious everytime he open his mouth.

    Peanut Head for PM!

  116. I certainly understand reluctance to discuss issues that were formally discussed.

    Certainly, Candy, I understand it – but I don’t accept it, & we shouldn’t accept it. If we allow the understandable deep communal grief to censor our examination of our future (and our present) – then we can only expect to be fatally constrained in determining our own destiny.

  117. jupes

    It is wrong and immoral to … import dangerous people with totalitarian beliefs into the country you have been elected to represent.

    It is wrong and immoral to … to accord equal status to a violent culture that you have encouraged to immigrate to the detriment of the people you have been elected to represent.

    It is wrong and immoral to … excuse the violence perpetrated by those immigrants against the people you have been elected to represent.

    It is wrong and immoral to … hide relevant, detrimental facts about immigrants, from the people you have been elected to represent.

    It is wrong and immoral to … appease violent immigrants to the detriment of the people you have been elected to represent.

    It is wrong and immoral to … display over the top outrage when someone you have been elected to represent commits a terrorist act against the totalitarian people who you have previously encouraged to immigrate, accorded equal status to, made excuses for, lied for and appeased.

  118. Watcher

    Here’s a fun fact. The biggest economy near us with the fastest growth will be second after China in total gdp in this region very soon. It’s indonesIa and its the biggest Muslim population on the planet. People here are the sort of Australians who make those people fearful. You can be sure that the NZ horror is well known to them.
    The sectarian themes on this web site really are awful

  119. None

    More likely you can’t get a girlfriend.

    Well that’s a relief Sinclair, given that I’m not a lesbian.

  120. bollux

    We don’t like them. they don’t like us. Now, tell me it’s a good idea to try and intergrate us.

  121. bespoke

    Sinclair Davidson
    #2961532, posted on March 17, 2019 at 3:11 pm
    I think many people here have guilty consciences. Actually I’m thinking of a lot of social media I’ve read over the weekend, including the Cat and Facebook and twitter and also the MSM too.

    I agree, it has been interesting seeing kittens who have declared them selves defenders of “whiteness” and others that have took every opportunity +1ing collective punishment etc suddenly silent, make meek irrelevant comments or change tact as if no one will notice what they said in the past.

  122. The Beer Whisperer

    There is a lot of bad behaviour this weekend.

    Standards have been loosened. Principles have given way.

    And the left have gone straight to condoning small violence without batting an eyelid. The mould is broken. Small time hood Jane Caro has called for monitoring of sexists, I kid you not. AOC is punishing dissenters within her own party. Betamale Beto is calling for punishment of climate “deniers”.

    Compare 2019 to 2022 and behold the expansion of intolerance. The time to fight insidious Marxism is now.

  123. Sinclair Davidson

    Tel – the point is that institutionalised pay back is institutionalised. These institutions are important.

  124. Seco

    Sinc is just trying to put some distance between himself and his contributors to the Open Fred in light of NZ. I suspect he’s been tapped on the shoulder by his employer, legal advisors or the law itself. I imagine we won’t see a Steve Kates post for a while unless it’s strictly on economics.

  125. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Watcher
    #2961395, posted on March 17, 2019 at 1:37 pm
    This web site has frequently published content explicitly denigrating and demeaning of muslims. It’s a bit rich to quibble now that a moron has acted on that messaging.

    Watcher, as an obvious troll, you are the only one in this whole interesting debate to suggest an active messaging of violence has ever been sanctioned or put forward in forums on this site. A genuine and considered incitement to do violence has never been permitted nor promulgated on this site. It is completely antithetical to the spirit and ethos of Catallaxy. You mistake examination of an issue in its full context, often with robust expression of opinion, with incitement.

    I suggest you ‘watch’ far more carefully and with your mind engaged in comprehending the process of a debate where freedom of speech within legal limits is actually exercised and many viewpoints are heard. Catallaxy is about reasoned debate, not incitement.

  126. Fat Tony

    Just read through this thread – there’s much discussion regarding the qualities of Islam and socialism.

    Russia (USSR/CCCP) had socialism inflicted on it in a big way – it (socialism) lasted 70 years.

    Does anyone know if any country in the last 1400 years has thrown off the yoke of Islam?

    As far as death tolls go, each ideology has probably accounted for similar numbers, though socialism did it in under 100 years vs 1400 years for Islam. If there is any “alliance” between socialism & Islam, when the falling out occurs, socialism will probably the last ideology standing. Socialism has form in mass industrialised extermination.

  127. Henry2

    Man bites dog. Thats the only thing that makes this latest event newsworthy. Can’t really change the nature of either.

  128. Mitch M.

    It is easy to trumpet freedom of speech when you do not have pay the potential cost. Give Sincs a break, he is sticking his neck out to let many here vent but if it goes wrong he is the one who pays the price. It might also pay to consider that many comments on this site are doing nothing to advance your preferred political options; quite the opposite.

  129. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    It might also pay to consider that many comments on this site are doing nothing to advance your preferred political options; quite the opposite.

    Mitch, if some comments turn people off a particular view being espoused, and if others argue against this view, or if they argue against the manner of its expression, as often happens, then surely freedom of speech and debate within a political democracy is doing its job?

    Sinc runs an honest forum of free expression which some anti-free speechers, for their own political purposes, may wish to see come to harm. Thus I have pointed out that if any comment has actually incited violence it must have been quickly expunged because I haven’t seen any.

    Sinc has made his own position on this and on other matters of civility and democracy quite clear and admonishes his ‘gentle people’ regularly re commenting within defined limits, as he is doing on this thread. As ever, he is receiving feedback in a civilized manner and putting forward his response to it. We expect no less and it is much appreciated, as is this site.

    Whilst our Doomlord does not expect people to agree with him, for his is a lived libertarianism, people over-stepping his site’s debating boundaries are quickly and permanently removed from the site. Just a few of the many examples: a fellow called ‘Popular Front’ was very soon sent back to where he came from. Stalking behaviour of any sort is also not tolerated, especially when applied salaciously to female commenters. And the site has specific software designed to repel a very crazy anti-Semite who tries constantly to reappear.

    Perhaps we now have a timely reminder that Sinc wishes to protect Catallaxy from likely attempts to further muzzle free speech in Australia. Assisting him to do that with occasional re-phrasing might be helpful as long as it does not entail outright self-censorship, for that would sink Catallaxy faster than a phalanx of violent Antifa trolls could ever manage to do.

  130. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    I agree, it has been interesting seeing kittens who have declared them selves defenders of “whiteness” and others that have took every opportunity +1ing collective punishment etc suddenly silent, make meek irrelevant comments or change tact as if no one will notice what they said in the past.

    Are you referring here to ‘kittens’ in the general media, or ‘Kittehs’ (the amusing term for female Cats) on Catallaxy, Bespoke? If the latter, which particular Kittehs do you refer to? I cannot offhand recall any woman here defending ‘whiteness’ as any sort of racial imperative; I recall only the term being used to demonstrate the ridiculous nature of current identity politics.

    Nor can I recall any specific instances of anyone, Kitteh or Tomcat, on Catallaxy endorsing a ‘collective punishment’ of any group of people and have specifically argued myself here that many Muslims in Australia, like those of other cultures and origins, are good and peaceful citizens. This was when I indicated how impressed I was by the entrepreneurial acumen, kindness and associated hospitality of the Muslim family running an Islamic-design carpet and tile Emporium in Sydney’s south where I went to make some purchases. This factual perspective however does not diminish the problems we have in Australia due to the non-integration of other Muslim immigrants, as was pointed out by others in further debate, and with whose views I also concur.

  131. calli

    There is a lot of bad behaviour this weekend. From schadenfreude , to rationalisation, to political point scoring. The social aversion to random violence and the social conventions that underpin that aversion need to be maintained.

    Of course. Processing the unthinkable is difficult for anyone with a functioning brain.

    And doing it against a screeching backdrop of media manipulation, handwringing-with-intent and political pointscoring makes it nigh impossible without voicing unpleasant thoughts as we work our way through it.

    That’s where this forum excells. Ideas proposed, argued, discarded. Freedom to indulge in “bad behaviour”, if you like.

    Our would-be controllers would far prefer us to shut up and accept the party line. No thanks.

  132. Tel

    I agree, it has been interesting seeing kittens who have declared them selves defenders of “whiteness” …

    Examples?

  133. calli

    What is “whiteness”?

    Seriously.

  134. bespoke

    Ask Elle, Tell

    Lizzie, Iv defended broad criticism of the Cat and will again but you have tendency how you what things to be not how they are. I only speak for myself and until Sinc appoints you spokes person for the Cat and hands longs serves medal that you desire, spare me the motherin I don’t need it.

  135. Elle

    I’m a defender of whiteness?
    I defend my J*wishness when told to prove my family perished in the Holocaust – told to support my “claim” when I stated a fact.
    I have defended some angry old white men. Is that what you’re referring to?

  136. Deplorable

    Tel – the point is that institutionalised pay back is institutionalised. These institutions are important.
    Bet you won’t think that way when Shariah is the institution Since.

    Murder by some has been the way of humans from the start, it seems some are defective. In this day and age we should be able to discuss and try to understand why these events happen by examining all points of view and evidence without being called stupid names from those who would virtue signal. Censorship or insulting others is no the answer .

  137. bespoke

    Elle
    #2962304, posted on March 18, 2019 at 9:08 am

    Id do you the same curtesy with your accusations against others.

  138. Elle

    Waiting for you to tell me about this defender of whiteness BS, bespoke.

  139. Elle

    Id do you the same curtesy with your accusations against others.

    Very revealing, bespoke.
    No others – plural. Not accusations either.

  140. John Stankevicius

    Dear Vicki

    I refer to your post and wholly agree. My thoughts are the the perpetrator of the violence has been pushed too far. I expect this could become a more common occurance. What I see is a white male who has continually been verbally and mentally assaulted/abused and continually been put down by the media and bloggers. Talking to people face to face is the only safe way to express your thoughts with out being branded as a killer/rapist/mentally sick etc etc (Eg Soviet and China Style) .

    The media with the politicians are pushing normal everyday people to extremes.

    As I see it the Muslim community are being manipulated by the media to be see as holier than art though while our Chirstian beliefs/values are being as I see it degraded.

    This has to stop as our society is tearing itself apart as per Christchurch .

  141. Alex Davidson

    I tend to agree with Seco (#2962104).

    However I also think we need to be very seriously questioning the extent to which the state uses (or more correctly, abuses) its monopoly on the use of violence in society. It might be fine and dandy if it were adequately “suppressed by mechanisms such as the rule of law and democratic accountability etc.”, and its function was limited to “the protection of property, liberty, and peace” a la Mises.

    But it isn’t. In this age of hyper-regulation and hyper-taxation, the state has extended its use of force, backed up by the threat of violence, far beyond these limited goals. The road to peace is surely one where violence is only ever acceptable in defence of life, liberty, and property. Allowing an exception to this rule in the case of the state has not only already taken us far down the slippery slope, but also undermines the case for consistent moral standards. How do you teach a child that something is wrong when they see the state engaging in it all the time?

  142. Confused Old Misfit

    Does anyone know if any country in the last 1400 years has thrown off the yoke of Islam?

    I thought that the Spanish had more or less managed it.

  143. Fat Tony

    Confused Old Misfit
    #2962424, posted on March 18, 2019 at 11:23 am
    Does anyone know if any country in the last 1400 years has thrown off the yoke of Islam?

    I thought that the Spanish had more or less managed it.

    Did they ask them to leave nicely or were angry words exchanged?
    Aren’t the Moslems claiming Spain now as their heritage, a land that is rightfully theirs’?
    They will get it back.

  144. stackja

    Spain to split up? Divided not stand against North Africa?

  145. Confused Old Misfit

    Did they ask them to leave nicely or were angry words exchanged?

    If memory serves I recollect that it came to the exchange of some very strong, and in many cases deadly, blows.

  146. Sinclair Davidson

    What I see is a white male who has continually been verbally and mentally assaulted/abused and continually been put down by the media and bloggers.

    Nah. He is just a terrorist.

  147. Sinclair Davidson

    In this age of hyper-regulation and hyper-taxation, the state has extended its use of force, backed up by the threat of violence, far beyond these limited goals.

    This is true – we often call out that behaviour. In fact we prefer calling out that behaviour to what has happened over the weekend.

  148. bespoke

    Elle
    #2931025, posted on February 11, 2019 at 8:29 pm
    LOL indeed, Nick. Really?
    If only the women haters here realised that the women on this blog have your back and fight for you guys every fucking day. We defend you blokes – your whiteness, your maleness – it can’t be lost. You are our past and future that I hold onto.
    Why the resistance?
    Why the criticism?

  149. Cynic of Ayr

    Sinc. Cynic of Ayr
    No. You are wrong.
    “Muslims” do not do this. Plenty of people do this. Some are Muslims, others are Christians, yet others are Jews, some are white, black, mixed race. And so on.

    Jeez, Sinc, where have you been?
    Muslims do not do this! Other people do this!
    Are you sure? Are you really, really sure that no Muslim does this?
    Their books insist that they do all of these things. This is the teaching. Millions obey the teachings and the books. Granted, millions do not obey the teachings and the books. However, that changes nothing in those that do.
    Remember 9/11. The videos of the Muslim Iraqis in the streets celebrating. The women were laughing.
    Remember the videos of the dead US pilot they dragged through the streets? Celebrations!
    I can’t list the number of times the Muslims have brought up the subject of the Crusades. I don’t care if the Crusades were justified or not, but the Muslims bring it up.
    Muslims do all these things. To be sure, others do so too, but on an amateurish basis. The IRA gave up. They couldn’t compete!
    Remember, I simply said they do. You said they do not.
    That’s simple nonsense, completely opposite to the direct evidence of millions of words of reporting,and hours of video, during the last few years.
    I don’t like where this is descending to. You have directly insulted and attempted to ridicule quite a few commenters here, on the subject, and others, whilst at the same time, being virtuous about “loving your fellow man”.
    Some say (simplistically) “Islam started it, a few years ago.”
    You’re onto them like a rat up a drainpipe!
    Some of you statements would trigger the fuck out of some snowflakes, but fortunately, there are very, very few snowflakes here.
    You suggest someone should bonk his Missus more often, asking if he was impotent. This in a Blog subject you started, on the wrongness and immorality of hate, or dislike.
    Sinc, I don’t know you. Never met you. I know nothing about you. Only know of you here.
    In the past, an interesting and likeable feller to read. Lately, not so much.
    You seem to have wandered off into some social area that does not become you, and you seem far too emotional about it.

  150. Mitch M.

    Assisting him to do that with occasional re-phrasing might be helpful as long as it does not entail outright self-censorship, for that would sink Catallaxy faster than a phalanx of violent Antifa trolls could ever manage to do.

    The most demonstrable defense of free speech is to put your name to your words. Most if not all here post anonymously so spare me the free speech must reign mantra.

  151. notafan

    Not just Spain but France, italy, Australia and many Eastern European countries have repelled muslim invasions, used in the historical war context.

    Took the Spanish 800 years though

  152. Elle

    Thank you, bespoke. You finally found it.
    I was indeed defending angry old white men.
    Guilty as charged.

  153. Iampeter

    You have committed to the idea of “Law and Order” but isn’t the justice system nothing more than a mechanism for institutional payback?

    “Law and order,” means objective, clearly defined, knowable and repeatable process.
    Payback on the other hand, is arbitrary use of force. That is a crime by proper definition.
    The whole point of a rights protecting government is to remove arbitrary force and replace it with objective, retaliatory force.

    What would Judge Dredd do?

    Judge Dredd is not an example of law and order, but arbitrary force that typifies the anarchy of dictatorships.
    He is an anti-hero, from a dystopian work of fiction, not an idealized version of how things should be or something.

  154. bespoke

    Mitch M.
    #2962539, posted on March 18, 2019 at 1:53 pm
    The most demonstrable defense of free speech is to put your name to your words. Most if not all here post anonymously so spare me the free speech must reign mantra.

    Been there, dealt with the doxing, harassing but your right the people that still do have the guts deserve more credit.

  155. Elle

    Within the context of what was being discussed or argued; I was defending old white males who have become a rich target for the far left, specifically the feminazis and their supporters.

  156. Elle

    Nought wrong with me doing that.

  157. Snoopy

    jupes
    #2961972, posted on March 17, 2019 at 8:19 pm

    Well said.

  158. bespoke

    It was plea of solidarity so people would stop picking on you, Elle.

  159. notafan

    You are right sinc about the people moaning about not enough children

    Yes taxation makes it more difficult

    Seems to me those that moan the most aren’t prepared to sacrifice lifestyle

    and yes I had four and paid for a Catholic education for all of them

    many of lives little luxuries went without for my pearls of great price

    The great reduction started with the pill, in the 1960s, long before burden of taxation was the newest excuse

  160. bespoke

    notafan

    To few like you and Jordan Peterson in the public sphere that’s the problem. Most like me only learn when its to late and just go with the flow.

  161. notafan

    sorry to hear it bespoke

    the terrorist should have shut up, gotten married and had a few of his own, if he really was concerned but no he was looking for an excuse to go on a killing spree

  162. Elle

    It was plea of solidarity so people would stop picking on you, Elle.

    Really, bespoke?
    Who was picking on me?

  163. Elle

    To few

    Too few, bespoke.

    To is a preposition with several meanings, including “toward” and “until.” Too is an adverb that can mean “excessively” or “also.”

  164. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Not just Spain but France, italy, Australia and many Eastern European countries have repelled muslim invasions, used in the historical war context.

    Took the Spanish 800 years though

    and in the end they had to deport them en masse

  165. bespoke

    notafan

    Dont be most of the stuff was my doing just some guidance may have helped. I have a little sister doing what you did, she’s a champ. I don’t get the population panic though I recon it’s only natural when the need to isn’t there.

  166. notafan

    and in the end they had to deport them en masse

    they did indeed

  167. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    until Sinc appoints you spokes person for the Cat and hands longs serves medal that you desire, spare me the motherin I don’t need it.

    Liar. You mentioned ‘long service medals’ not me. As for me ‘desiring’ such – bullshit, they are all entirely your particular fabrication. I have specifically said the only value in long service here is that you get to know over a long period who stands for what and who has said what, and when.

    If I really let lose on some illiterate people, you inane waffler, you wouldn’t be calling it motherin’.

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