Quality not quantity

My good friend David Leyonhjelm had an op-ed in the AFR on Friday (reproduced below) where he makes the argument that Australia should have good quality migrants. This is one of the areas where I disagree with LDP policy – we should definitely have bad quality migrants. No … wait.

We hear this sort of argument all the time – but it is a strange argument for libertarians to be making. What is a good quality migrant? Obviously those Wits University graduates from South Africa are awesome. But after that? Definitely no Canadians.

But here is the thing – Australia does take good quality migrants.

The Skill stream accounted for 68.4 per cent of the total 2017–18 Migration Program outcome.
At the major group level of the Australia and New Zealand Standard Classification of Occupations (ANZSCO), the top three major occupation groups for primary visa grants in the Skill stream were:
• Professionals (66.1 per cent),
• Technicians and Trades Workers (13.3 per cent)
• Managers (8.8 per cent).
Within the Skill stream:
• the Employer Sponsored category had an outcome of 35,528 places. It comprised 32.0 per cent of Skill stream outcomes, with 29,307 places (82.5 per cent) under the Employer Nomination Scheme (ENS) and 6221 places (17.5 per cent) under the Regional Sponsored Migration Scheme (RSMS);
• General Skilled Migration (GSM) had an outcome of 68,111 places. GSM comprised 61.3 per cent of Skill stream outcomes;
• the Business Innovation and Investment Program (BIIP) had an outcome of 7260 places (6.5 per cent); and
• the Distinguished Talent category had an outcome of 200 places (0.2 per cent).

Over 2/3 of migrants are skilled – coming to boost the economy.  Now you could argue that 100% should be skilled – okay – but the notion that we have to worry about the quality of the immigration is a furphy.

 

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91 Responses to Quality not quantity

  1. Arky

    Over 2/3 of migrants are skilled

    ..
    Nearly a third of migrants have no skills?
    Hopeless.
    And why the hell are we spending so much time and money on education, “the clever country, errrr derrrrr, whaaaa?” and still have unemployable something, something – studies bums graduating and having to import doctors.
    Whole damn thing stinks.

  2. Arky

    There should be one qualification for coming here, and it is this: you love the damn place and would die to defend it.

  3. Chris M

    the notion that we have to worry about the quality of the immigration is a furphy

    Sure, keep telling yourself that. All cultures equal, two legs bad, all that. Because living in Melbourne your lying eyes might start to mislead you.

  4. How does a rational employer determine his recruitment policy?
    Something like this:
    a) Determine the optimum number of new hires
    b) Establish the criteria consisting of MUSTS i.e. new hires must be of good character, must be fluent in the local language, must have a track record of loyalty to previous employers etc.
    c) Establish the criteria consisting of WANTS i.e. define the skills, attitudes, etc. that the firm requires most.
    d) Choose the required number of new hires established in (a) above, interview those selected from submitted CV’s, and choose those who best fit the specification.
    Why should a sovereign nation’s immigration processes be any different?

  5. Shy Ted

    And 18,000 muslims, I mean, refugees, every year, plus family reunion bolllocks and so on says no, we’re not.

  6. Dr Fred Lenin

    Walk up Swanston Street Melbourne at noon any weekday and count the European looking people ,you would think you were in zHonkers or Calcutta . Go to Northland and count the Europeans . The place is full of Asians and bloody mosques , mail box women every where . Used to be Australian Melbourne did now its white only in the suburbs the left polllies live in with their green comrades .

  7. Malcolm Thomas

    You are wrong, Sinc. The ‘skill stream’ includes many u skilled. secondary visa holders. In any case, as the PC showed, many older ‘skilled’ migrants are likely to impose net costs on incumbent Australians.

  8. Sinclair Davidson

    Why should a sovereign nation’s immigration processes be any different?

    Basically it isn’t.

  9. Lilliana

    Why are we importing en mass? The population ponzi scheme is destroying this country. The newbies skilled or other have no social contract with this country and it shows.
    Arky#2961459, posted on March 17, 2019 at 2:17 pm is right.
    Treating labour like a paper clip – just another factor of production – is destroying the west. We are being torn apart by cuckoo’s. Look at Melbourne and Sydney. They are no longer Australian cities and there is no going back. The notional that all cultures are wonderful is insanity. Look at the UK, and Western Europe how much more evidence do you need!!!!

  10. Cynic of Ayr

    Some good points. I’d say that basically, your statement is that two thirds are good, and it doesn’t matter at all what the other third is. Perhaps they can just be “irritants”, as that insidious prick Waleed Aly says they are.
    The problem is that only a very, very few of that final 1/3 need be out and out criminals (the Australian idea of criminal, that is, not the islamic idea of criminal) and cause some really irritating damage to people and property.
    Here’s a list of the irritations,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Australia
    I haven’t gone to the trouble of removing the non-islamic irritants, as I would then need to post the list instead of the web address.
    I’d guess these irritants were part of the 1/3 of immigrants who aren’t regarded as good immigrants?
    Not that many really, as a proportion of islamic irritations world wide, but is/was it worth it Sinc?
    What’s the magic number of innocents killed, to make immigration worthwhile? How many do we tolerate being killed or injured?
    “Well, yeah, there’s been a few killed and injured, but hey! we have some rather neat accountants and plumbers in exchange!”

  11. Sinclair Davidson

    The problem is that only a very, very few of that final 1/3 need be out and out criminals

    Unilike the colonial period when all permanent migrants were criminals?

  12. sfw

    I live in NE Vic, there has been a slow but steady increase in population over the past 10 plus years. Most of the increase is white Australians. They get to the point where they feel like strangers in the land and society they were born in. Recently spoke to a couple in their 60’s from Glen Waverley, they grew up there, married there and bought a house and lived there, thought they would die there, but now the shops, the streets, the signs are predominantly Chinese. In poorer areas such as Coolaroo, Sunshine, Springvale the new people are not Chinese but muslims and Indians and a few others, the Aussies who are left (and there’s not many) are lost, they are a minority in the place they spent most of their lives.

    White flight is real and it’s happening here.

    A few weeks back I caught train in Sydney, the railway platforms were a sea of foreign mainly Asian faces. The signs were mainly in (I think) Chinese characters. The point is it doesn’t matter how skilled the intake is if you destroy the local culture. Nobody minds a few different faces and cultures here and there but when entire suburbs and large parts of cities are no longer recognisably ‘Australian’ the game is over.

    I guess highly educated elites who livc in very expensive suburbs and have little or no contact with the migrants don’t really care, they can eat in a new cuisine restaurant, have their car washed cheap and have all those little jobs done by migrants. They care not for the locals who have lost their culture and residential areas.

    As and aside, since Amanda Vanstone decided we needed a bit of what America has and started to import Africans, has anyone noticed and African takeaway in every shopping strip? I haven’t, I guess a diet of millet doesn’t really lend itself to good food.

  13. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Over 2/3 of migrants are skilled – coming to boost the economy.

    Absolute lies. They are not coming to boost the economy, they are coming to boost themselves and our politicians are importing them in an attempt to prop up a sagging economy suffering from the boomer bust.

    And anyone that objects to this scripted replacement is a racist.

    If politicians addressed the true root cause, low birth rates and allowed actual debate about western decline rather than suppressing debate then they could be addressed. Instead we find politicians of all colour blindly buying into the argument that GDP must be propped up at any cost.

    western islamification is not the cause of western decline, it is a symptom of western decline.

  14. Y

    Go to the shops in Tarneit and you tell me who the colonisers are.

    Except this time, with no tradition of liberal democracy or the rule of law.

    What could possibly go wrong?

  15. Judith Sloan

    You are missing the main point., Sinc

    They may come under skill categories but that doesn’t make them skilled. See Bob Birrell on this point. The proportion of overseas born graduates from Australian universities who work in professional/managerial jobs is half the proportion of local graduates. The employer sponsored scheme is the worst with no real English language requirements.

    Sinc, the migration program is a complete mess n terms of both quantity – way too many – and quality.

    I’ll write an entry.

  16. Elle

    They are not coming to boost the economy, they are coming to boost themselves

    I came to Australia because my skill base earns me twice as much here than in the land of the long white cloud.

    Australia is the lucky country*

    *Used favourably. Unlike in the book The Lucky Country (1964 author Donald Horne) where the phrase was negative within the context of the book.

  17. Sinclair Davidson

    They are not coming to boost the economy, they are coming to boost themselves …

    Dear god. Noooooooooooooo. People acting in their own best interests? Adam Smith’s invisible hand at work?

  18. HarryC

    Someone’s manifesto refers to a video hosted by a New Zealand mosque. It’s this one. To be clear, the mosque hosted this video on their Facebook page – it is not right-wing propaganda. The title here is “Quality not quantity”. Seems on topic.

  19. JC

    Absolute lies. They are not coming to boost the economy, they are coming to boost themselves

    There is so much wrong with this statement I really don’t know how anyone could untangle it. No one comes here or has come here “to boost the economy, you nitwit. Everyone who’s come here after the transportation period, has come to boost themselves. Why else would you come?

  20. Iampeter

    Now you could argue that 100% should be skilled – okay – but the notion that we have to worry about the quality of the immigration is a furphy.

    Exactly. Regulating immigration is as arbitrary, collectivist and therefore leftist, as any other rights violating government intervention.

    Dear god. Noooooooooooooo. People acting in their own best interests? Adam Smith’s invisible hand at work?

    Welcome to the consequences of two thousand years of Christianity.
    These same people, who don’t believe one should be acting in their self interest, are then puzzled by why socialism keeps winning.

  21. Is this the sort of economic logic that Sinc teaches at RMIT?

  22. duncanm

    C’mon Sinc .. dig a bit deeper. You’re supposed to be an academic dealing with numbers and stuff.

    Lies, damn lies and statistics.

    Look at the report on Net Overseas Migration, the numbers for permanent migration are (pp 9):
    * Skilled – 36.9k
    * Family – 32.6k
    * Humanitarian – 11k
    * Other – 5.3k

    The other skilled numbers are made up from 457, working holidays, etc.

    Our permanent migration is more like 40% skilled.

  23. Dr Fred Lenin

    I suppose if two thirds are usefull the taxes they pay would go to keeping the one third who are on welfare and rorting the welfare system . Thats sort of economics isnt it ? . Where is the gain ? Exceptfor keeping a lot of highly paid public employees in a job looking after the non productivee migrants .

  24. Oh come on

    I thought for a moment that iampeter was on the cusp of producing a comment that didn’t contain an utterly moronic statement, but then…

    Welcome to the consequences of two thousand years of Christianity

    Keep trying, petey.

  25. Tezza

    In economies and cultures, everything happens at the margin. The 30-odd percent of migration that is not skilled has clearly changed enormously over recent years, with many of those migrants now coming from what Paul Collier calls ‘culturally distant, low trust’ countries of origin. Many also are non-English speaking tertiary students who are having a significant impact on the quality of the Australian tertiary sector (not to mention the apartment market).
    If all of these 30% wanted nothing more than to embrace core Australian values, that would be great. Somehow it doesn’t seem to be turning out that way.

  26. stackja

    I know migrants who came here to make a better place for their children. They worked hard at any job they were give. I am skeptical of those recent migrants who seemed to only want an easy life of welfare. Quality is those who want to help themselves but at the same time help Australia.

  27. stackja

    Liberty Quote
    What politicians maintain as the necessary costs of government are increasingly sensed as unnecessary costs of ‘over-government’. And its taxes, originally seen by William Pitt as income tax, and accepted for a few years as payment for a good bargain, are being subconsciously but finally resented as too high for the quality and relevance of services available at lower cost and higher quality from competing supplier in the market.

    — Arthur Seldon

  28. Ubique

    Perhaps someone could rate the quality of those hundreds of immigrants or their offspring who volunteered to fight as Australian jihadists for ISIS.

  29. Elle

    Quality is those who want to help themselves but at the same time help Australia.

    Indeed. Proudly became an Australian citizen, pay taxes here and worked the accent so I don’t sound sully enymore.

  30. Tabitha

    Can Sinc ever get out of the economic bubble in which he does all his thinking? Values matter. Culture counts for something. Someone’s economic output means nothing if half the people coming are disgusted by the West and seek to change it.

  31. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    There is so much wrong with this statement I really don’t know how anyone could untangle it. No one comes here or has come here “to boost the economy, you nitwit. Everyone who’s come here after the transportation period, has come to boost themselves. Why else would you come?

    That was Sinc words. We have this magnetic things called welfare. Maybe someone can look up the moslem unemployment numbers. While you are at it, the incarceration rates, the EU ones from memory are eye opening.

    Sinc’s answer of just have more babies, is about as meaningful as the just say no to drugs mantra.

    The issue is statistical and requires policies that are not just about baby bonuses and cheap childcare.

    Policies of gender equality, murder of unwanted babies are the primary reversible causes of low birth rates.

  32. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    So from the above official figures we are currently importing 2.6m per decade in a country of what 25m.

    Anyone might be forgiven to think our economies should be booming with all these new worker… but its not is it. Nor is it going to, is it. Why is that?

  33. Fisky

    It’s very strange how productivity has absolutely tanked since we started the Big Australia push in the early 2000s. Wages have hone nowhere for 7 years. How could this be?? The immigration ponzi scheme was supposed to enrich everyones!!1

  34. Roger

    Unilike the colonial period when all permanent migrants were criminals?

    Incorrect. Free settlers began arriving from c. 1815 and soon outnumbered convicts.

    Over 2/3 of migrants are skilled – coming to boost the economy.

    Aren’t they coming to boost themselves, particularly those from the sub-continent and other lesser developed countries – and who can blame them? But by the time they’ve been swept up into the tax- welfare churn and the cost of infrastructure and services for each migrant and/or migrant family is calculated what is the boost to the economy? It’s not as if they’re all entrepreneurs creating wealth.

  35. Leo G

    So if “good quality” people are “economy boosters” does that imply “economy booters” are “bad quality” people.
    I don’t think so. Surely, the quality that matters is the quality of the migrant program, not the migrants.
    This clarification suggests a government obligation to select a mix and quantity of migrants according to the particular set of skills etc that optimise the benefits to the economy- regardless of how arbitrary that might appear.
    As if the government was really that wise.

  36. Why should a sovereign nation’s immigration processes be any different?

    Basically it isn’t.
    And what, pray tell, is the algorithm used to determine the optimal number of immigrants Australia requires?
    What method is used to ensure that all immigrants are fluent in the language of the land?
    By what means is “good character” determined”?
    What method is employed to determine the skills required? Does Australia at present need people scholarly in nuclear physics?
    What happens when the quota for a particular skill has been filled?

  37. MPH

    Skills aint skills. Does anyone truly believe that a ‘professional’ from a third world shithole economy meets the standard expected by an Australian consumer of their work product? If that were the case the country of origin wouldn’t be a third world shithole…

    I think Stackja captured it perfectly. It’s fine to want to better yourself, but you shouldn’t be allowed to do it at others expense. You have to overall contribute more than you take to be a quality addition, otherwise Australia is depleting and diluting the capital generated by previous generations.

  38. Rabid Koala

    Over 2/3 of migrants are skilled

    Setting aside the fact that it is actually 4/10 that are skilled, what is their skill and why cannot unemployed or underemployed Aussies be taught the same skill?

  39. Over 2/3 of migrants are skilled – coming to boost the economy. Now you could argue that 100% should be skilled –

    It’s more than just skills. I’d argue that 100% should be committed to becoming Australians and should demonstrate as such for a period not less than 10 years before being granted citizenship or permanent residency.
    The minute we devalue citizenship ( as most libertarians and sundry leftists do) we are fvcked.

    okay – but the notion that we have to worry about the quality of the immigration is a furphy.

    Tell that to the 13 year old girls in certain suburbs who can’t go to the shops on their own anymore because they’re afraid of being cornered by 2/3rds skilled immigrants.
    Tell that to the driver whose car gets bumped from behind but is afraid to get out to see the damage because of the 2/3rds skilled occupants of the other car.
    Tell that to the people who can’t walk down the street they’ve previously walked down since they were kids, because the 2/3rds skilled new arrivals might get upset.

    If you’ve formed your opinions on bulk numbers rather than the experiences of individuals, then you’re a libertarian in name only and believe the collective is above the individual.
    Change my mind.

  40. Neil

    Why do we need to import Doctors and Dentists?

  41. Behind Enemy Lines

    Quality not quantity
    Posted on 2:08 pm, March 17, 2019 by Sinclair Davidson
    Over 2/3 of migrants are skilled – coming to boost the economy. Now you could argue that 100% should be skilled – okay – but the notion that we have to worry about the quality of the immigration is a furphy.

    Sinc, I try to be civil, but this is madness. The usual suspects are lying to you with statistics. Come spend a few weeks at street level in everyday ordinary Australia, and you’ll be baying for a complete end to immigration by the end of the month. Forget the ‘statistics’. Just look around you. Here in the second decade of the millennium we’re no longer getting the cream of the crop. Sure, there are some absolute champs, and some useful entrepreneurs. As for the remaining 80% of what I’m seeing, it appears we’re just swamping the welfare rolls with countless backwards, peasant, welded-on ALP perma-voters. Plus a sizable fifth column of Chicom speculators in real estate and politians.

    They need to go home. And Australia’s welcome mat needs to be put in the bin.

    No wonder heritage Australians are getting fed up. I can’t believe heritage Australians haven’t risen up.

  42. Boambee John

    Sinclair Davidson
    #2961499, posted on March 17, 2019 at 2:42 pm
    The problem is that only a very, very few of that final 1/3 need be out and out criminals

    Unilike the colonial period when all permanent migrants were criminals?

    Actually, that is not true Doomlord.

    Even in the First Fleet, there were non-criminals. Transportation ended in 1868, with WA the last receiving colony. It ended in NSW in the 1840s, and other colonies between those dates. Somewhere around 164,000 convicts had arrived.

    The colonial period ended on 1 January 1901 with Federation.

  43. Squirrel

    “Obviously those Wits University graduates from South Africa are awesome. ”

    I had a (now retired) truly excellent dentist with qualifications from Wits, but at the other end of the employment scale, I sometimes wonder why we are importing people to do high-skilled….. tasks like wrangling supermarket shopping trolleys and staffing petrol station cash registers – surely that can’t all be explained away as necessary due to “job-snobbery”/dole-bludging etc. by other Australians.

  44. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    There’s nothing wrong with a bit of migration. Bring in the best and brightest when you have a booming economy benefits everyone. Nobody can seriously argue against that.

    That’s not the issue.

    The issue is we don’t have a booming economy we have an ageing and downward sloping economy. We have a cycle of deflation that is going to play out for the entire century.

    Any amount of “stimulus” supply or demand will eventually be overtaken by declining workforces. We can see this process has been unfolding in Japan for 2 decades.

    Nothing seems to scare economists and politicians more than the deflation word.

    What’s more scary is the logical end point of declining population, which comes not from an exogenous shock but by individual choices to reduce birth rates and that is extinction. That’s a fair way away but it’s the logical outcome of the current course.

    Long before that comes marginalisation. Long before that comes shrinking markets which means less demand, less opportunity. Fewer and fewer bright people, fewer and fewer geniuses. Less consumers, shrinking markets, less taxes, less power.

    By importing vast numbers of very different people, some completely incompatible with our values and ideals to replace the shrinking population, politicians and the elites are sending a very clear message:

    and that is, f*ck you, you and your kind, your values, your heritage, the lives that were sacrificed by your ancestors to create our prosperity don’t matter. You are fungible, you are replaceable, to us you are just an economic unit to maintain some magic numbers and to protect our wealth and power.

    An increasing number of people are hearing this message loud and clear.

  45. Crazyoldranga

    Unilike the colonial period when all permanent migrants were criminals?

    Really Sinc? Really? Like the crusaders killing Muslims back in the day? Really mate? And you are an”educated” man. Damn.

  46. Davey Boy

    Hmmm. Trusting the stats from our gubmint now are we. You know, just like those on the success of plain packaging. Har, har. And BTW didn’t DL once call Mr Davidson a Commo?

  47. rickw

    Over 2/3 of migrants are skilled – coming to boost the economy.

    The “economy” is not an end unto itself.

    What’s the point of all this if Australia isn’t actually Australia anymore?

    I have a friend who has just returned from almost 20 years of expat assignments.

    “What the heck happened?! This place has become a complete shithole!”

    (Traffic, African Gangs, Terrorist Attacks, Social disharmony etc. etc.)

    Oh, and his parents were immigrants.

  48. David Brewer

    A few distinctions necessary:

    The numbers for primary visa grantees are not a good indicator on their own. How many secondary visas were issued against each category of primary visas and what do those people contribute and/or cost?

    The net migration figure is useful for some purposes but not others. It’s good for assessing the strain put on schools, hospitals, public services, transport etc. Net migration of 80 to 100 thousand a year to Sydney, i.e. nearly 1 million people per decade if it keeps up, poses huge problems.

    For some purposes, especially to assess cultural impacts, the gross immigration figure is more important. Gross immigration to Australia is over half a million a year.

    The cultural impact/strain also depends on qualitative factors: how different, and how acceptable or unacceptable to the people already here, are the cultures represented in the gross inflow?

    At the extremes we have crime, terrorism, hate preachers etc. that are relatively rare but cost our society dear in lives, money, disruption, inconvenience, and losses of rights, freedom and privacy for all of us. To assess risks here you need not only to look at percentages but absolute numbers from specific risk groups and the rates of specific problems arising in those groups.

  49. Pyrmonter

    @ Sinc

    Free settlers outnumbered convicts from very early in Australian colonial history; and there were never convicts in some parts of the country (very few, if any, ever in Vic; none in SA)

  50. Muddy

    Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)
    #2961799, posted on March 17, 2019 at 6:20 pm

    David Brewer
    #2961863, posted on March 17, 2019 at 7:02 pm

    Solid comments, both of you. Thanks.

  51. MikeS

    Unilike the colonial period when all permanent migrants were criminals?

    Some of the criminal offences were by modern standards, bordering on the trivial. Three of my ancestors were convicts (it’s OK, my great grandmother was a nun, so all good).

    One had snatched a ‘tunic’ from a clothesline. For that, at 17, he was transported – effectively for life. If only he’d simply done the equivalent of ‘egg’ a politician or ‘glitter’ a conservative journalist, he’d have been OK.

  52. Realworld

    Think you’ve been in your ivory tower too long Sinc, you may know a bit about economics, but choose to be totally blind to culture. Islam is a cancer, most (not all ) that come from third world shit holes helped create them – and a “non-discriminatory” immigration policy is the dumbest phrase ever uttered, and in no way democratic. Give us a bloody say on who comes in – and 90% would not allow islam or third world thugs. I cannot understand your attitude, or the elites that rule us, can only assume its the same quilt ridden virtue signalling that has bought us the war on carbon farce. Your views are in the minority, not that I’m holding my breath for a referendum.

  53. One ScoMo doesn’t make a Spring

    SFW : not sure if all your comments are correct but can relate to a few.

    I have had to compete with ‘quality’ migrants for job roles. It seems because they come from Ireland or England or Europe they speak different and hold some major management formula. Well behold they are just as dumb as the rest of us. The result is salary increases are held to inflation plus the odd $ bonus (once you get through the hoops). My beef: the immigration issue does not always lead to betterment of the community yet it can never be challenged, some bloggers in this website appear to know all about the markets yet never competed globally for their roles in the market place and our betters know all and no nothing. MSM are not just pathetic but redundant in dealing with real issues in the community.

    I’ll have another beer now please. Rant over and out.

  54. jupes

    Quality means no Muslims and no Chicoms.

  55. jupes

    And no Sudanese of course.

  56. bollux

    How can another Australian make me so f…ing angry by just thinking like this!

  57. bespoke

    Neil
    #2961691, posted on March 17, 2019 at 4:52 pm
    Why do we need to import Doctors and Dentists?

    Pom’s

  58. bespoke

    Sure lets compare the blokes that built the Snowy to…..

  59. Leo G

    Unlike the colonial period when all permanent migrants were criminals?

    My family descends from migrants who all came to Australia during the colonial period. None were convicts. Of that number, our family name belonged to a chap named George who was born in Alsace during the military occupation following Napoleon’s les Cent Jours and who accompanied his brother Philip, recruited in the 1830s by the Australian Agricultural Company to work in New South Wales.

  60. Tim Neilson

    But here is the thing – Australia does take good quality migrants.

    The Skill stream accounted for 68.4 per cent of the total 2017–18 Migration Program outcome.
    At the major group level of the Australia and New Zealand Standard Classification of Occupations (ANZSCO), the top three major occupation groups for primary visa grants in the Skill stream were:
    • Professionals (66.1 per cent),
    • Technicians and Trades Workers (13.3 per cent)
    • Managers (8.8 per cent).

    This is world class naivete.

    Just because the program has something called a “skill” stream doesn’t mean that anyone coming in under it has any skills.

    If it were called the “credentialled” stream, that would probably be more accurate.

    If we ran a sweepstake on what percentage of “skill” stream migrants’ alleged “skills” were a mickey mouse diploma from a Dawkins university or a private provider I’d take high field.

  61. jupes

    Unilike the colonial period when all permanent migrants were criminals?

    Now think for minute and imagine that all those criminals and their overlords were Muslim.

    What would Australia look like now?

  62. Tim Neilson

    (it’s OK, my great grandmother was a nun, so all good)

    There’s got to be a good story behind that.

  63. Leigh Lowe

    Sinclair Davidson

    #2961499, posted on March 17, 2019 at 2:42 pm

    The problem is that only a very, very few of that final 1/3 need be out and out criminals

    Unilike the colonial period when all permanent migrants were criminals?

    Not strictly true.
    75% were convicts and 25% were screws.
    The latter cohort poisoned the place.

  64. Leigh Lowe

    Pyrmonter

    #2961864, posted on March 17, 2019 at 7:02 pm

    @ Sinc

    Free settlers outnumbered convicts from very early in Australian colonial history; and there were never convicts in some parts of the country (very few, if any, ever in Vic; none in SA)

    SA proudly boasts it never had any convicts.
    But, in modern SA, one in twelve residents is a serial killer.
    And they produced the Pie Floater and Christopher Pahn.
    What does this tell us?

  65. Leigh Lowe

    “Obviously those Wits University graduates from South Africa are awesome. ”

    After you complete your second year there, are you officially a Half-Wit?

  66. MikeS

    (it’s OK, my great grandmother was a nun, so all good)

    There’s got to be a good story behind that.

    She arrived as a red headed, 16 year old postulant from Dublin in 1886. Took the veil and lobbed into a convent in Lismore. It seems that around 1895 another batch of nuns arrived from Ireland and started throwing their weight around.

    Family legend has it that she got the shits with Lismore, the convent and the Catholic church all at the same time. One year later, she was married to a grazier at Moree and went on to have four kids. Not sure if she would have passed the skilled migration tests today.

  67. Whalehunt Fun

    Send them back. Queen Isabella proved it can be done.

  68. max

    Gary North:

    Christians should not become advocates of closed borders to those who are coming here to work. Obviously, revolutionaries may accompany the immigrants, but trained revolutionaries are going to get into a free nation anyway. The borders are not that tight, and they cannot be made that tight. We are not Communist nations.

    To close borders is simply to treat everyone as potentially guilty and thus to destroy a free society, while not really ending the threat it purports to end.

    We cannot tighten the borders enough to stop a motivated terrorist, and the more we tighten, the more we destroy freedom for everyone else.

    Because modern humanism’s theories of government self-consciously exclude a public religious confession as the basis of civil government, the West has broken with its past. The freedom of the European medieval city was based on a Christian covenantal confession; without this explicitly Christian confession of religious agreement, the medieval city might not have developed.
    In the modern world, this covenantal basis of civil jurisdiction has changed drastically. Because citizenship is based on blood (birth), or passing an examination (written or verbal test), or some other non-theological characteristic, the modern world has been threatened by the rise of mass democracy, the politics of “one man, one vote.” For instance, mass democracy and the tax financed welfare State have combined to make immigrants a threat to the citizens of a prosperous nation. Immigration barriers were the product of the so-called Progressive movement in the United States, which flourished from the late 1800’s until about 1920. Each new resident is viewed by taxpayers as a potential drain on tax-supported welfare services. Taxpayers want only potential taxpayers to enter the nation. Public goods create a fear of immigrants.

    If citizenship were by Christian confession, immigrants would be welcomed as potential converts to the faith, just as visitors to a church are welcomed. They could join the civil covenant through covenantal adoption by God.

    Since immigrants could not vote—meaning “vote themselves into our pocketbooks”—until joining the civil covenant, they would not be a threat economically. Because they would work, they would be an asset. Because citizenship in the United States is automatic through birth inside the national borders (U.S. Constitution, Fourteenth Amendment), immigrants have become an economic and political threat, for their children will become citizens upon reaching adulthood and become eligible to vote.
    Because of compulsory tax-financed education, their children drain our school budgets. The welfare State, coupled with citizenship by birth, has made immigrants a liability. This situation is radically anti-Biblical and immoral, yet it is the politically inevitable outcome of mass democracy, socialist ideas, and citizenship by birth. A century ago, a liberal was a person who favored open borders—free trade, free immigration—and a minimal State. Today, he favors restricted immigration, high tariffs, and a maximum State. Some liberals in the United States are now considering raising tariffs, abandoning a major belief of nineteenth-century liberalism. Freedom of movement has steadily been sacrificed on the altar of the welfare State. In ancient Israel, citizenship was by covenant and family, so strangers could live in the cities and share God’s blessings on the whole society.

    Christian civil citizenship must be confessional, but with open borders. To screen civil citizenship in terms of anything other than Christian confession is to make “undesirable” foreign residents a threat.
    There were no passports in the West before 1914. Few Western nations had rigorous immigration laws. There was also no mass democracy or socialism. People who would obey the laws and work hard were seen as a benefit. But mass democracy and the rise of socialist ideology changed all that. With the progressive income tax came immigration barriers in every nation. The welfare State is illiberal with regard to work-oriented immigrants. To the extent that welfare State thinking has become common among Christians, they too have adopted the closed-border mentality.

    We don’t have an immigration problem, we have a socialism problem. Or we could say immigration is a problem only because of our socialism.

    We spend our time and virtually all our precious resources in crisis mode against outward symptoms and not against the root causes. We are so self-deceived. We think if we allow a few thousand refugees into this nation we are going to diminish our culture. What culture? Our Christian culture? You mean the Christian culture that Christians have sat and watched for a century and half slowly erode with progressivism, socialism, public schools, social security, no-fault divorce, abortion, and $22 Trillion in national debt? Through radical pietism, premillennial pessimism, rapture escapism, dualistic two-kingdoms withdrawal and “natural law”? You mean the Christian culture that Christians have diminished and eroded already by themselves?
    There is nothing about our culture that a relative handful of even Muslims could destroy that we Christians have not ourselves destroyed already. Who needs Muslims when we’ve got Christians like these? They don’t come here because they want to destroy our strong Christian roots. We don’t have many left in our civil society. If they’re coming here as terrorists because of our foreign policy, or if they’re coming for welfare handouts, then they’re coming because we have departed from Christian culture and biblical law. When we loathe them, we are loathing ourselves, for it is socialism and military intervention we are protecting.
    If we want to have a Christian culture, then follow biblical law. No more military intervention without a clearly just cause. No more standing armies in 100+ countries. No more socialism permeating a hundred aspects of our daily lives without a peep from most Christians.

    https://americanvision.org/12731/should-we-accept-the-refugees/

  69. Fat Tony

    No Moslems.

    Indonesia started with 1 – and look at it now.

  70. Rabid Koala

    Unilike the colonial period when all permanent migrants were criminals?

    Letting your white supremacist slip out there Sinc?

    In fact, now that you have pointed out that white criminals made a one of the greatest countries on Earth I do recall that America too was once a dumping ground for white criminals too…the real question is if non whites cannot even manage to build a comparable civilization to what white criminals can manage then why should they be allowed into Australia?

    If your ivory tower colleagues find out you had a free thought though you will find your tenure disappears. Your secret is safe with us.

  71. classical_hero

    Damned lies and statistics.

  72. Nob

    You need to be open to intelligent unskilled people with entrepreneurial ambition too.

    That gives society some dynamism. Poor people on the make.

    I’m not that great a believe in the govt deciding what skills the country needs.
    Things change so rapidly.

  73. 2dogs

    Unilike the colonial period when all permanent migrants were criminals?

    In those days, convict assignment greatly reduced the rate of recidivism.

  74. Rabid Koala

    You need to be open to intelligent unskilled people with entrepreneurial ambition too.You need to be open to intelligent unskilled people with entrepreneurial ambition too.

    Plenty of Aussies with entrepreneurial ambition

  75. struth

    So much naivety in Sinclair’s comment and belief in government as to astound.

    Hey Sinc, BoM aren’t fudging temperature records either.
    Skilled Migration is just a part of immigration numbers and so called “quality” immigrants are only a part of that.

    Mr Davidson we have a government that deviated along time ago, from being democratic, and decided, with out asking Australians to “Grassby” the nation.
    From that point on, during a Whitlam labour Government, we were stuffed.
    Now that has shown to be completely ruinous to a nation, government will not retract from it and therefore would rather shut the terrible old colonial class of whites up, who are complaining about being car jacked and blown up.
    The cheek of the bastards.
    Christchurch was just a matter of time, and was always going to happen.
    Now, Mr Sinclair, the only way out of this, which matters not to the elite living politician, is to increase “diversity” Migration, ( or “anyone not white and Christian” as we see with your old country’s farmers), to outnumber these tedious, mouthy white pricks who dare stand up against what was an undemocratic assault on a young nation with a strong Christian and western culture at the time.

    I would suggest to you, that a Libertarian you seem to be, more than a conservative.
    Maybe that has a little to do with you being an immigrant to a nation that once understood what institutions and culture gave it the advantage over the country you came from, and maybe you might understand better if you understand that the reasons for our success as a nation was passed down to us, and we do understand the damage certain attacks cause.

    Anyyway, the point is, that our government made a disgusting anti democratic move when it came to Al Grassby, and now they are trying to eliminate those by bombarding the country with “others” who they denied a voice, who are now complaining about it.

    If you believe any figures coming out of government these days, you need your head read.

    Surely the outrageous response to the Muslim shootings in Christchurch compared to the reaction when it’s the other way around , and what they are trying to portray the shooter as, gives you some idea that it might not be a level playing field around these parts anymore.
    So, do you really feel comfortable displaying you naivety for all to see , in such a fashion?

    This is without me commenting on the pure furphy that immigration of it’s self is an economic stimulus.
    Bollocks.
    There needs to be PRIVATE SECTOR jobs needing workers.

    Or could all you smarties again tell me why Venezuela just doesn’t import a million curry munchers to fix their mess?

    Did you have that solid conservative view instilled in you?

  76. Mr. Black questions the need for immigration.
    This is a video posted on the FB page of a New Zealand mosque. It is not “propaganda” but is indeed factual. I present it here not to suggest it is good, bad, or indifferent, as it is simply fact.
    It does however answer Mr. Black’s question as to the need for immigration, as indeed it may answer other questions which have arisen recently.

  77. Eyrie

    Why would anyone believe ANY “official” statistics?
    Bureaucrats make up the numbers they beleive their political master want to see.
    I know of one Federal government agency that tells complete lies based on completely bogus raw numbers WHICH THEY KNOW are seriously wrong but continue to do it because it suits their and their political masters’ purposes.

  78. Neil

    So are you saying we should import cricketers for the Australian cricket team instead of training local talent?

  79. struth

    Karabah.

    Your video gives western governments an “out” by claiming declining western birth rates somehow necessitate Islamic immigration.
    It does not.
    It states a declining population cannot sustain it’s culture.
    Poppycock.
    Australia was a stronger , more united culture when there were 10 million people in the country.
    We can decline in numbers substantially from our population now, and still maintain our culture.
    Our culture is not dying because of lack of numbers, it is dying because it is being diluted and divided, unnecessarily by governments, who are interfering too much in the commerce and industry of our nation and is too large, therefore taxing people out of having kids.
    In all cases, look to the government to be the problem, not the people.
    Global socialism is purposefully bringing down western populations through taxation and other impediments while screaming about the birth rate as an excuse to dilute and destroy western culture, so as to make global control a done deal.

  80. Cynic of Ayr

    CoA. The problem is that only a very, very few of that final 1/3 need be out and out criminals
    Sinc. Unilike the colonial period when all permanent migrants were criminals?

    Jeez Sinc, that’s a desperate straw clutch, which doesn’t address my comment in the slightest way!
    Perhaps you shoulda gone back a bit further, to when the Romans immigrated into Britain. Same relevance.
    Situation remains the same. What’s the magic number of Immigrant Criminals to Immigrant Professionals ratio, that makes a few deaths and injuries acceptable .
    If you want to bring them in, that’s fine, but you have to accept the down side, and that may – God forbid – be personal one day.
    My own Doctor is an Indian. Great bloke. But Indians don’t score well on the terrorist chart, do they?

  81. Sinclair Davidson

    Jeez Sinc, that’s a desperate straw clutch

    You should know by now that I’m often flippant.

    More seriously peeps – this whole notion of peaceful invasion that we keep hearing about and comes up often in the thread is just rubbish. Pure conspiracy theory stuff.

  82. Eyrie

    No conspiracy required Sinc. Just a birthrate differential. Think of it as evolution in action.
    I presume you can handle exponentials in mathematics?
    We’re doing it to ourselves.
    Now read “Caliphate” by Tom Kratman. Available free on Amazon.

  83. jupes

    this whole notion of peaceful invasion that we keep hearing about and comes up often in the thread is just rubbish.

    Wow. So what do you think is happening in Europe? Do you think Muslim immigration has changed places like Birmingham, Molenbeek and Malmo for the better? How about Fairfield in Sydney?

  84. Sinclair Davidson

    Just a birthrate differential.

    You didn’t see my comment on this yesterday. Gird your loins. Bonk the missus. Pump out a few sprogs. You slacker.

    Do you think Muslim immigration has changed places like Birmingham, Molenbeek and Malmo for the better?

    There is a law and order problem. We should target unlawful behaviour and criminality not ethnicity.

  85. There is a law and order problem. We should target unlawful behaviour and criminality not ethnicity.

    Were the Vikings a “law and order problem”? The Mongols? The Huns?

    It’s all very well to try to solve a “law and order problem” after locally born citizens have been killed, gang raped or bashed. Prevention is better than cure. We shouldn’t be bringing in people who are highly likely by reason of their culture and values to start trashing our society. If they’re never allowed in they can’t create the “law and order problem” in the first place.

  86. jupes

    There is a law and order problem.

    No it’s a cultural problem. Islam is not only antithetical to western culture but breeds terrorists at a rate that proportionally increases as the Muslim population increases. Islam is not committing crimes against us, it is going to war against us.

    Libertarian theory is utterly useless in the face of Islamic reality.

  87. struth

    More seriously peeps – this whole notion of peaceful invasion that we keep hearing about and comes up often in the thread is just rubbish. Pure conspiracy theory stuff.

    Have you heard of the UN and Antonio Gutterres?

    It’s no conspiracy theory when they admit what they are doing and it ‘s all there for you to read.

  88. struth

    There is a law and order problem. We should target unlawful behaviour and criminality not ethnicity.

    During ww2 would you be for or against German immigration into this country?

    Most Germans would probably be fine.
    Worth the risk?

    When we are actually at war with Islam overseas and they are committing acts of terror against innocent westerners, and ra-ping etc, in Islam’s name, should we be taking in Muslims?
    Do you think as a western man you have some responsibility to your women folk to keep them safe from this threat?

    Based on the failure of the Sudanese gangs to assimilate and respect the country and people supporting and supplying them shelter, is it OK for me to state now, we should have no more of them.
    Importantly this is not based on the colour of their skin, but of their culture.

    Why do these people earn more of your concern than their victims?

  89. the notion that we have to worry about the quality of the immigration is a furphy
    and…
    There is a law and order problem.

    Are these statements compatible?

    Only by a Baghdad Bob level of denial about what’s happening in certain suburbs of Melbourne and Sydney.

  90. There is a law and order problem. We should target unlawful behaviour and criminality not ethnicity.

    All well and fine in a mono culture.
    What happens when a (newly arrived) group claims our laws are unjust to them? (say, criticizing religion)
    Maybe we compromise to keep the order eh?
    But what happens when 3, 5, 20 different cultures live side by side?
    How does one even begin to apply the law let alone write them justly for all concerned?

    Inviting people of different cultures to live with us and telling them that it’s ok for them to keep their culture because “diversidy is our strenff” is naive and ignorant of history and reality.

  91. stackja

    Sinclair Davidson
    #2961499, posted on March 17, 2019 at 2:42 pm
    The problem is that only a very, very few of that final 1/3 need be out and out criminals

    Unilike the colonial period when all permanent migrants were criminals?

    Just saw this. My ancestors came here one side as convicts. They became farmers. The other side came here for a new life and added to society. Many recent people came here it seems to create problems.

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