Monday Forum: May 27, 2019

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3,364 Responses to Monday Forum: May 27, 2019

  1. Top Ender

    Please note that I am a god.

    Not “the God”. A god.

    Ask my cat. He is very sure.

    Especially around 530ish when I make food appear out of the magic box.

    Actually Mrs TE usually does that.

    She is my acolyte.

    However she does not know it.

    I do not require blind worship.

    Only basic acknowledgement.

    I am that sort of god.

  2. Nick

    Well said Leigh on both posts.

  3. johanna

    Fantasia is on now, on Go!.

  4. memoryvault

    Good evening Leigh.
    I wasn’t “dictating” anything to anybody, merely making a humble request that we get onto something other than an entirely pointless and unresolvable debate that is as old as Mankind itself.

    But by all means carry on if you must.

  5. max

    Marcia bloody Langton.

    Others on The Dumb panel smile and laugh.

    Marcia remains immobile, paralysed like someone in a Betty Bacall lookalike competition hearing the news that Bogy was spotted in a gay nightclub with the French police inspector

  6. Mother Lode

    Tintarella di Luna
    #3030953, posted

    Sorry Tints, could you post that again?

    I didn’t catch anything except “Roberto” and “comprehension”. I sometimes wonder…won…sorry, was I just talking?

  7. So if it turns out He doesn’t exist we’re locked in this pointless debate forever?

    No.
    For those doomed to nick’s joint. Hell is an eternity of pointless debates. Moderated by numbnuts.

  8. Arky:

    So I guess no one wants to talk about breasts, then?

    ..
    I don’t believe in breasts.

    You poor miserable bastard.
    Here – have a feel of these, you’ll quickly come to realise they’re for real.

  9. dover_beach

    No, he went to test a prediction made by Albert Einstein.

    A prediction involving the deflection of starlight by large mass objects like the sun as I stated.

    Which didn’t use or need the notions of cause and effect. That’s your choice of language to talk about it. Neither Einstein nor Eddington used it.

    The idea of prediction assumes causation. Again, this attempt to pretend that scientists do not trade on the idea of causation is laughable.

    I don’t mind your using the word, but your assumption that there are chains of discrete causes is not much use when talking about the world.

    Not at all. You cannot formulate a scientific hypothesis without presupposing causation. The same is true re experimentation where you attempt to institute controls and isolate a single variable to determine its effect on what is observed. And so on. Again, this attempt to pretend that causation is absent from science is laughable.

  10. Top Ender

    MEDIA FOOL OF THE WEEK

    PETER FITZSIMONS’ FALSE PROPHECY re ALAN JONES

    As the saying goes, it’s foolish to make predictions — especially about the future.

    In recent times Peter (“Look at me”) FitzSimons — he of the Red Bandana — has become the Fool of Sydney. He is forever moralising about this or that and telling people how to live their lives. It is as if Fitz is of the view that most Australians believe in the causes advanced by middle-aged millionaires who live in Sydney’s Lower North Shore and walk around with a red rag on their heads. It hasn’t worked. Voters rejected Fitz’s assertion that they should vote against Gladys Berejiklian’s Coalition government in the NSW State election last March as a protest against the demolition and rebuild of the Allianz Stadium in Sydney. Again, on 18 May voters rejected Fitz’s advice to bring down the Coalition government led by Scott Morrison. But there’s more.

    At 6.52am on the morning of Sunday 25 November 2018, The Red Bandannaed One announced the main story in his Sun-Herald column that very morning. Here’s the announcement:

    Peter FitzSimons

    @Peter_Fitz
    My Sunday column:
    ‘The walls are closing in’: 2GB management wants Alan Jones out https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-walls-are-closing-in-2gb-management-wants-alan-jones-out-20181123-p50hwz.html?btis … via @smh

    Jones has gone from being the biggest asset the station possesses – to being a massive liability.

    When readers — if readers there were — reached for the Sun Herald later that morning this is what they found in “The Fitz Files”:

    To cut to the chase, Alan Jones’s contract is up in the middle of next year, and current 2GB management does not want to renew it. There are a variety of reasons, but first and foremost is that Jones has in recent times gone from being the biggest asset the station possesses — and the greatest generator of profits — to being a massive liability.

    The record $3.7 million defamation payout to Toowoomba’s Wagner family is a big part of that. Jones’ repeated slurs of the family over years were simply shocking, most particularly when, as the court case showed, Jones had no basis for accusing them of “murder” at all. The reckoning is that if Jones is so wildly reckless as to engage in that kind of defamation in his twilight years as a broadcaster, just what might he do next, and how much would that defamation cost?

    The second factor is that with the advent of social justice warriors such as Sleeping Giants pursuing Jones’s sponsors online over being associated with his brand of bigotry, racism, misogyny and bullying — take your pick — many of those sponsors are not just running from Jones’s show, but all of 2GB. He has, in sum, lost the confidence of the management, and they want him gone.

    On Tuesday it was announced that Jones had signed a contract, at around $4 million per annum, to remain at 2GB Radio in Sydney for the next two years. It seems that 2GB management accepted Alan Jones’ error with respect to the Wagner family. Moreover, it has been unmoved by the leftist Sleeping Giants’ advocacy to get rid of him and has rejected Fitz’s view that Alan Jones is possessed of “bigotry, racism, misogyny and bullying”. Adam Lang, 2GB’s chief executive, drew attention to the fact that “Alan Jones has dominated Sydney radio” over two decades and said that “all of us at Macquarie are delighted that we will continue along for the ride [with Alan Jones]”. Which is a long way south of Fitz’s assertion of only six months ago that Mr Jones was “a massive liability” to 2GB.

    In short, the Red Bandannaed One is a False Prophet.

    Peter FitzSimons: Media Fool of the Week.

  11. bespoke

    bespoke
    #3030977, posted on May 31, 2019 at 6:47 pm
    The passive aggressive shtick is to obvious Peter.

  12. DrBeauGan

    Pick a strange attractor built from an ODE like the Lorentz Attractor would be the most well known. Start from your favourite initial condition and ask yourself where the system state will be after a long (but precise) period of time. Show your working to find that result.

    Smooth ODE, Tel. The problem is sensitivity to initial conditions.

    When the difference in the future state depends critically on the thousandth decimal point in the initial state, we have problems. But they are practical problems with measurements
    .

    Tossing a coin is not very different. Nobody thinks our inability to predict a head or a tail with high accuracy invalidates Newton’s laws of motion. We just don’t know the initial momentum, angular momentum, position and orientation to sufficient precision.

  13. Helen

    I see on the Oz they are suggesting the MUm and 4 who drove into an on coming tuck was deliberate.

    I am sorry for those kids who will never know the full sum of their short lives, what they could have been. I am sorry for the poor truckie who has to live with that horror for the rest of his life – and his family. I am sorry for the father of the kids who will never see them grow up.

    If it is true, it is bloody selfish.

  14. None

    So who was Jesus, then?

  15. Entropy

    Pirate Pete does have one impressive quality: despite being wrong, always, he has the ability to extract a wage from a dying newspaper. That and snagging a hot chick who earns more money than he ever could.

  16. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    If it is true, it is bloody selfish.

    suicide is always selfish… taking your kids with you is plain evil

  17. Nick

    When Warner gets booed, no doubt he will get a documentary made regarding the racist behaviour of supporters. Oh hang on.

  18. Cassie of Sydney

    “Helen
    #3030982, posted on May 31, 2019 at 6:51 pm
    I see on the Oz they are suggesting the MUm and 4 who drove into an on coming tuck was deliberate.

    I am sorry for those kids who will never know the full sum of their short lives, what they could have been. I am sorry for the poor truckie who has to live with that horror for the rest of his life – and his family. I am sorry for the father of the kids who will never see them grow up.

    If it is true, it is bloody selfish.”

    Not selfish……evil.

  19. Nick

    So who was Jesus, then?

    An avatar of God

  20. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Tossing a coin is not very different. Nobody thinks our inability to predict a head or a tail with high accuracy invalidates Newton’s laws of motion. We just don’t know the initial momentum, angular momentum, position and orientation to sufficient precision.

    but if we knew them down to plank I think we still wouldn’t be able to predict them

  21. Mother Lode

    Former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull has landed a new job in New York.

    Ha!

    I love the idea of the dome headed Neanderthal with a Messiah complex turning up to work on Monday morning and being told to do the hilariously patronising online inductions and being told he made mistakes.

    I know it won’t be like that, but it is hard to imagine him being welcomed among a group of highly motivated competent people.

    I expect that every comment he makes will be met with a “Thank you, Malcolm. That’s very…special.”

  22. Roberto

    Tintarella di Luna

    Roberto do you also apply a comprehension test? That would be useful too I’d say.

    Yes, there are other tests of literacy and numeracy. One of these requires that the candidates read a 5-6 page report and then write a one page précis of it. This is a pretty good tool for assessing the candidates’ comprehension skills.

  23. None

    Former PM has been hired by a New York firm “with an industrialist vision”.

  24. Cassie of Sydney

    “That and snagging a hot chick”

    She isn’t “hot”….whilst her husband is a buffoon, she is a dunce.

  25. Leigh Lowe

    Former Australian prime minister Malcolm Turnbull has been hired as a global senior adviser by New York-based investment firm KKR & Co.

    Topendertown!!!
    Boo, [email protected]

  26. John Constantine

    🐑💰 NEW AUSTRALIAN RECORD LAMB PRICE $345 💰🐑

    A new Australian record price for lambs was set at Griffith saleyards in southern NSW today.

    A draft of 82 second-cross Dorset lambs sold for a massive $345 a head.

    The lambs, which weighed an average of 92kg, were sold by Noel, Jodie and Shaun Hoskinson from Kikoira.

    The 10-month-old lambs were estimated to dress 43kg.

    It overtakes the record of $344 set at Dubbo in September.

    The meatworks are backgrounding the vicco media that the high prices in victorian yards last week were because rough weather in Bass Strait prevented 20,000 lambs from Tassie being shipped across. Don’t think that weather delay made much impact in Griffith.

    From July 1, new dentition rules allow the definition of lamb to include the first two permanent teeth to be erupted as long as they are not in wear. Basically lets the superheavies stay on feed until eruption, in theory allowing for lambs to push up towards 50 kilos dressed, which the American market seems to demand.

    New dentition plus this demand makes new records in the new financial year look likely.

  27. DrBeauGan

    The idea of prediction assumes causation.

    No It doesn’t. A prediction says that if you do certain things, you will observe certain things.

    Your commitment to a choice of language and inability to contemplate alternatives is a serious failing.

  28. Frank

    Why would someone who can travel between the stars (or galaxies) bother coming here?
    Or bother taking to us?

    Because they enjoy having the shapeshifting reptilian facade falter under the action of video compression algorithms? That and farming us so as to be the feasting upon our souls probably.

  29. None

    Peter Fitzsimon is the new Bob Ellis.

  30. Leigh Lowe

    Peter Fitzsimon is the new Bob Ellis.

    Bandana Man is drinking a gallon of claret a day and has arse cancer?

  31. None

    Gawd anyone who thinks Wilkinson is a “hot chick” must be a blind lesbian.

  32. memoryvault

    Here – have a feel of these, you’ll quickly come to realise they’re for real.

    Winston, hat post constitutes cruel and inhumane treatment.
    Consider yourself guilty of a war crime.

  33. C.L.

    “Kiddie packs.”

    A new phrase I heard on radio news today from a Cancer Council nazi who was commenting on reports that while tailor-made cigarette sales had declined, roll-your-own sales had increased. The CC gauleiter condemned tobacco companies for reducing the size of rollie packs to allow them to sell at a more attractive price. She is now calling for these “kiddie packs” to be banned.

  34. DrBeauGan

    but if we knew them down to plank I think we still wouldn’t be able to predict them

    Not true, Zippy. Persi Diaconis has demonstrated that he can get heads seven or eight times out of ten. He’s a Harvard statistician, but used to work in a circus. Also, there are machines which can toss a coin and get the same outcome every time. It’s a matter of precision in what constitutes a repetition. Persi has got it off pretty well. Machines can do it better.

  35. Mother Lode

    I don’t believe in breasts.

    Hmmm.

    If we consider breasts to be protrusions out from the body they elicit definite responses.

    But if we consider them instead as the remaining tissue when the rest of the body is recessed back they don’t. Yet in form they are equal. Indeed, that is how a sculptor creates the shape of a breast, bit we still see them as protrusions.

    Yes. Breasts are, philosophically, very problematic.

    (I think I just worked out a way to attract hormone soaked adolescents to the Philosophy Department – much healthier than what political and social studies are offering.)

  36. Geriatric Mayfly

    If it is true, it is bloody selfish.”
    Not selfish……evil.

    Should the very worst of this come to light, the uber feminists will be busy at work already, cobbling together as many mitigating circumstances as they can muster. One thing is for sure, the root cause will be a man.

  37. Leigh Lowe

    Saw that former ATSIC elder statesman, Geoff Clarke, on the TV tonight.
    A small matter of more than 1,000 fraud charges between him and other family members.
    Two separate OTT sound bites.
    In the first one he is quacking on about the oppression of indigenes.
    In the second one he is comparing himself to Ned Kelly.
    So even he is confused about his identity.

  38. Nick

    In the second one he is comparing himself to Ned Kelly.

    Ironically, Ned had less Irish blood than Geoff

  39. None

    Rollie packs have always come in kiddie packs.
    The link which someone posted above showed Elizabth was among the top suburbs with smokerrs. Elizabeth is unemployment central with multigenerational welfare families. Noone up there could afford $150 pw for tailors or even $80 or whatever it is now for a pouch. And yet our government fleeces 18billion a year from them.

  40. Geriatric Mayfly

    Why would someone who can travel between the stars (or galaxies) bother coming here?

    Because so many galactic communities have been invaded by the RoP. Which means shitholes are a universal problem.

  41. Mother Lode

    Peter Fitzsimon is the new Bob Ellis.

    The stains in Blob Ellis’ dressing gown could have fed an African village for a week.

    And his boxers a colony of dung beetles for a decade.

  42. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Not true, Zippy. Persi Diaconis has demonstrated that he can get heads seven or eight times out of ten. He’s a Harvard statistician, but used to work in a circus. Also, there are machines which can toss a coin and get the same outcome every time. It’s a matter of precision in what constitutes a repetition. Persi has got it off pretty well. Machines can do it better.

    it’s an illusion of perceived safety due to relative avoidance of boundary conditions. the machine may be able to replicate the coin toss but not indefinitely.

  43. Tel

    Smooth ODE, Tel. The problem is sensitivity to initial conditions.

    Don’t shortcut … you haven’t shown your working though. Sure the ODE is smooth, all you have to do is show the solution.

    Take integer initial conditions (precise to infinite degree) or any simple fractions you find convenient if you are hung up on that. Use an integer time between start and finish as well to avoid any argument over roundoff on that one.

    You don’t have to really build one … solution on paper will do fine.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_system

    Use those equations, very simple, can’t go wrong.

  44. C.L.

    Rollie packs have always come in kiddie packs.

    Not to my recollection.
    The Drum and Bank packs I remember (way back when) were the bigger sizes.
    The old tins for brands like Havelock were pretty small, though.

    I went through a Bank phase. Lovely aroma, awful after-taste.

  45. memoryvault

    Interesting snippet about smoking I learned just the other day.
    There is a total ban on the advertising of cigarettes and associated products, including rollie weed and papers. However if you go online you will find several businesses offering cigars that can be ordered on the web and posted to you.

    apparently cigars are exempt from the advertising bans, at least online.

  46. Mother Lode

    Why would someone who can travel between the stars (or galaxies) bother coming here?

    Beyoncé?

    Well, aliens will be…alien.

  47. Entropy

    Cassie of Sydney
    #3030994, posted on May 31, 2019 at 6:57 pm

    “That and snagging a hot chick”

    She isn’t “hot”….whilst her husband is a buffoon, she is a dunce.

    I was not aware that intelligence is a criterion. And of course time and motherhood will be cruel to even Jennifer Hawkins.
    Well, maybe not her.

  48. Empire 5:5

    Former Australian prime minister Malcolm Turnbull has been hired as a global senior adviser by New York-based investment firm KKR & Co.

    Cash, Neville. I need cash.

    https://youtu.be/G3VnX0hf_yM

  49. Entropy

    Gawd anyone who thinks Wilkinson is a “hot chick” must be a blind lesbian.

    I keep telling Mrs Entropy I could be a Lesbian.

  50. Arky

    Yes. Breasts are, philosophically, very problematic.

    ..
    We can imagine that a perfectly symmetrical pair of breasts exist.
    But if that perfect pair only exists in our minds, then it possible to conceive a perfectly formed pair of breasts that exist in both the mind and reality, which would be greater than perfect breasts that only exist in the mind: therefore a perfectly symmetrical pair if breasts exist in reality, and all we can do is hope they don’t have those really dark brown over- sized nipples because that would ruin everything.

  51. None

    Rollies came in two pouch sizes when I smoked. I rolled matchsticks so I always bought small pouch and even have a leather pouch to fit.

  52. DrBeauGan

    it’s an illusion of perceived safety due to relative avoidance of boundary conditions. the machine may be able to replicate the coin toss but not indefinitely.

    Sure. Because machines wear out and they stop replicating the initial state to sufficient precision.

  53. John Constantine

    The murray darling basin will still be cleared of Tory electorates and rewilded, under our unswerving compliance to signed transnational convention on the rights of the waterfowl of the coorong, but looky here…..

    The long-awaited, $60million South East Flows Restoration Project has been completed, and winter rains are expected to send water into local wetlands for the first time in years.

    The last contractors left Kingston two weeks ago after construction work on the 93 kilometre channel began in early 2017.

    Jointly funded by the state and federal governments, the system was designed to help with salinity management in the Coorong South Lagoon, increase flows to Upper South East wetlands and reduce drainage outflow at Kingston beach.

    Project manager Mark de Jong says water that otherwise would have ended up heading to the ocean can now be used to restore local wetlands.

    Water will be diverted out of the Blackford Drain near Kingston and will travel along the newly created flow path to the Coorong. Along the way it can be stored in wetlands like Tilley Swamp.

    “One of the purposes of the infrastructure is to make the best use of the water when it is available,” Mr de Jong said.

    “Rather than sending water out to the ocean we can use it along the floodway for wetlands en route and deliver it to the Coorong if it needs it as well.

    “Throughout the design process we’ve also had lots of discussions with landholders about what features along the alignment would assist their property drainage into the channel.”

    Nature Glenelg Trust manager Mark Bachmann said the original design was to include a drain only, but there was an opportunity to advocate for changes that allowed vital water to be stored in wetlands along the way.

    “This stretch between Blackford and Coorong via the Taratap and Tilley Swamp watercourses was actually the destination of a lot of the South East’s water originally – it’s a natural flowpath and was going back to the original days of settlement,” Mr Bachmann said.

    He said drainage programs over the past 150 years saw water flows to Tilley Swamp pretty much cut off.

    “That basically left thousands of hectares of former wetlands high and dry,” he said.

  54. C.L.

    Well there you go.
    I don’t remember the smaller rollie packs.

  55. Mother Lode

    I have the awful feeling that the brouhaha about God faith and logic was precipitated by a quote about atheists and agnostics nevertheless having irrational beliefs in a post of mine.

    Because I only came back late, I decided not to dip my oar in the matter.

    I was not trying to be controversial.

    Still, an energetic discussion. Kudos to all involved.

  56. Frank

    Gawd anyone who thinks Wilkinson is a “hot chick” must be a blind lesbian.

    Correct, she is not at all hot. But these things are relative, when stood next the gorilla she married her looks improve by comparison. Her sense of discernment radically atrophies however.

  57. Knuckle Dragger

    Lisa Wilkinson is 12 months away, at best, from becoming Magda Szubanski.

    There is a reason they never showed her arse in 15 years of breakfast TV.

    Jowly jowls ahoy!

  58. Tel

    Sure. Because machines wear out and they stop replicating the initial state to sufficient precision.

    Do the calculation on paper. I mean don’t tell me you are saying that mathematical equations start to “wear out” with usage.

    If maths wears out over time, what do we end up with at the end of that process?

  59. Top Ender

    Why would someone who can travel between the stars (or galaxies) bother coming here?

    Comforting thought.

    If they are coming here:

    – then they have mastered faster than light travel, and so we can too,

    OR

    – they have mastered travelling through warped space. Ditto.

    Or if not:

    – there are a lot of loons out there on Earth saying they are here.

  60. Knuckle Dragger

    ‘dark brown over-sized nipples….. ruin everything’

    Finally, a philosopher that gets it.

  61. Arky

    Sure. Because machines wear out and they stop replicating the initial state to sufficient precision.

    ..
    You are also assuming that all the things that we think of as constants do in fact remain constant, something you have absolutely NO PROOF at all of, and which is in fact unprovable, therefore this is something you believe without proof, therefore disproving both your statement above that you never believe things without having a reason to do so, and that a coin- flipping machine must be predictable.

  62. None

    They were 20/25g, larger was 50g. Drum certainly had two sizes. Maybe other brands didn’t.

  63. DrBeauGan

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_system

    You can see a little black dot rolling around the butterfly at that link, Tel. That’s showing the solution to the Lorenz ODE. All nice and smooth.

    The practical problem is, as I said, real life predictions are buggered by our ignorance of the initial conditions.

  64. Arky

    You are also assuming that all the things that we think of as constants do in fact remain constant, something you have absolutely NO PROOF at all of, and which is in fact unprovable, therefore this is something you believe without proof, therefore disproving both your statement above that you never believe things without having a reason to do so, and that a coin- flipping machine must be predictable.

    ..
    Therefore God exists.

  65. memoryvault

    Rollies came in two pouch sizes when I smoked. I rolled matchsticks so I always bought small pouch and even have a leather pouch to fit.

    Rollie weed came in 50 gram and 30 gram packs when I first started smoking it over 15 years ago.
    The only change since then was dropping the smaller pack down from 30 grams to 25 grams maybe four or five years ago.

    I think this had more to do with standardising pack sizes (50 gram = 2 x 25 gram) than the laws.

  66. Knuckle Dragger

    I’m curious as to what Wittgenstein would have made of the infinite paradox that is Raelene Castle.

    RA can’t afford a Super Rugby grand final, according to Sky earlier this arvo.

    Executive salaries will remain unchanged.

  67. None

    Wilkinson is 60 years old or thereabouts, But I bet her arse is smaller than yours.

  68. DrBeauGan

    Do the calculation on paper. I mean don’t tell me you are saying that mathematical equations start to “wear out” with usage.

    Which calculations, Tel? Those of Newtonian mechanics? What boundary conditions? Now you are being silly, although not quite as silly as Arky.

  69. Boambee John

    Roberto do you also apply a comprehension test? That would be useful too I’d say.

    Our tame seagull regularly has difficulties with comprehension.

  70. Knuckle Dragger

    Yeah nah, toots.

    Still rocking at 34″ round the guts.

    Thanks for noticing.

  71. DrBeauGan

    You are also assuming that all the things that we think of as constants do in fact remain constant, something you have absolutely NO PROOF at all of, and which is in fact unprovable, therefore this is something you believe without proof, therefore disproving both your statement above that you never believe things without having a reason to do so, and that a coin- flipping machine must be predictable.

    ..
    Therefore God exists.

    You are getting pretty desperate, Arky.

  72. Cassie of Sydney

    “And of course time and motherhood will be cruel to even Jennifer Hawkins.”

    Jennifer Hawkins is classy and beautiful…..two things that Wilkinson is most definitely not.

  73. Top Ender

    Amazing!

    ROAD SAFETY: On Fatality Free Friday, the Territory Government has said it’s considering ways to improve safety for pedestrians including installing more barrier fencing in dangerous spots and providing hi-vis garments for people sleeping rough.

    9 News

  74. dover_beach

    No It doesn’t. A prediction says that if you do certain things, you will observe certain things.

    Your commitment to a choice of language and inability to contemplate alternatives is a serious failing.

    You just did what you accused me of. You simply redescribed effects as ‘observing certain things’ and causes as ‘do certain things’ and yet the different words and phrases describe exactly the same thing, causation.

  75. Knuckle Dragger

    TE,

    That parody website you must be reading is a cracker.

    Points off for owning a cat, btw.

  76. Arky

    You have believe that universal constants don’t change over time.
    You have no evidence for that.
    Therefore you have contradicted yourself.

  77. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Sure. Because machines wear out and they stop replicating the initial state to sufficient precision.

    what you are saying is so long as we can avoid boundary conditions.

    your coin toss machine is setup to perform under a wide margin of error. now I did physics at uni and remember the constant struggle with precision, there is basically no such thing, there is always error. so long as your initial conditions are well within the margins of error than everything is fine but as soon as anything comes close to or compounds near a margin all bets are off.

  78. Helen

    Log Cabin for me to start with the fags. Became an expert in rolling dry tobacco. LOLs

    But

    Leigh Lowe
    #3031007, posted on May 31, 2019 at 7:08 pm

    Saw that former ATSIC elder statesman, Geoff Clarke, on the TV tonight.
    A small matter of more than 1,000 fraud charges between him and other family members.
    Two separate OTT sound bites.

    This is the grub who got off on a rape cahrge then lost when the girls ran a civil case then didnt pay the fine becasue – bankrupt. Corrupt all round.

  79. bespoke

    Watching Year One to further my education.

  80. Arky

    Either admit you take things on faith or prove that gravity is an unchanging constant.
    Go!

  81. Black Ball

    There is a God. He makes sure that Carlton were salary cap cheats and that they will never recover from this. Long may you suffer.

  82. Arky

    Also prove that the perfect breast things have nice nips.
    Go!

  83. DrBeauGan

    You just did what you accused me of. You simply redescribed effects as ‘observing certain things’ and causes as ‘do certain things’ and yet the different words and phrases describe exactly the same thing, causation.

    My definition of a (conditional) prediction did not use the term causation. So I don’t need the concept. You apparently do. It’s some sort of emotional attachment to a choice of language. Fight it.

  84. memoryvault

    Okay, enough for trivia night. Now to important matters.
    I watched John Wick 1 last night. Is John Wick 2 as good?

  85. John64

    Saw that former ATSIC elder statesman, Geoff Clarke, on the TV tonight.
    In the first one he is quacking on about the oppression of indigenes.
    In the second one he is comparing himself to Ned Kelly.

    Ahh;half Indiginee, half Irishman.

    Part of Patrick O’Dodson’s Mob.

  86. Arky

    Beaugan: I believe God doesn’t exist.
    God: I believe Beaugan doesn’t exist.
    Arky: Make it so.

  87. Tel

    You can see a little black dot rolling around the butterfly at that link, Tel. That’s showing the solution to the Lorenz ODE. All nice and smooth.

    A crude approximation at best. Not smooth either.

    You know I can tell you have never tried this.

  88. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Okay, enough for trivia night. Now to important matters.
    I watched John Wick 1 last night. Is John Wick 2 as good?

    yes

  89. Knuckle Dragger

    Indeed, BB.

    It’s like having a bottomless glass of rooooly good Scotch that just gets better with each episode of Carlton incompetence.

    If Malcolm Turnbull was Victorian he’d certainly follow the Boooos.

  90. Knuckle Dragger

    MV,

    Yes. Yes, it most certainly is.

  91. memoryvault

    Thank you Zippy.
    See you all in a couple of hours.

  92. memoryvault

    Thanks Knuckle Dragger.

  93. Steve trickler

    A 2016 interview that is still buried on YT.

    JLP interviews JBP.



  94. DrBeauGan

    your coin toss machine is setup to perform under a wide margin of error. now I did physics at uni and remember the constant struggle with precision, there is basically no such thing, there is always error. so long as your initial conditions are well within the margins of error than everything is fine but as soon as anything comes close to or compounds near a margin all bets are off.

    Sure, there is wobble in the most precisely made machine. The question indeed is whether you can reduce it enough to be close enough to the initial state of the last time it worked, which depends on how big the initial states are which lead to the same outcome.

    The state space for a coin toss is twelve dimensional, if it were two dimensional and we could see it, we’d get something like a rather fine checker board with alternating black and white squares. The white squares would lead to a head coming up, the black to a tail. If the machine is sufficiently carefully made, two consecutive operations would start off in the same square. That is, a sufficiently small perturbation of the initial state won’t change the outcome. We arent equipped to replicate the initial state to that kind of precision, except for Persi. Machines can be made that keep the perturbation small enough. But yes, there’s always some perturbation. This is real life.

  95. Arky

    My definition of a (conditional) prediction did not use the term causation. So I don’t need the concept. You apparently do. It’s some sort of emotional attachment to a choice of language. Fight it.

    ..
    So what you are saying is: His emotional attachment to the word “causation” caused him to use it?

  96. Knuckle Dragger

    This year is the 40th anniversary of the most disgraceful event that has ever marred the field of sporting endeavour in all of human history.

    I refer, of course, to the final minutes of the 1979 Grand Final, when Wayne Harmes – knowing full well he was out of bounds by about three metres in the forward pocket – chipped it into the goalsquare for some nobody who kicked it through, sealing a five point Carlton victory.

    Famously, the football was found to have been so far out of bounds it had bits of a spectator’s pie on it.

    I still can’t understand why the entire suburb of Collingwood didn’t invade next door Fitzroy, make it a vassal state and then launch west again, razing Carlton to bare, excrement-soaked earth.

    Bastards.

  97. Some History

    How do you make God laugh?

    Tell him your plans.

  98. DrBeauGan

    Arky
    #3031056, posted on May 31, 2019 at 7:55 pm
    Beaugan: I believe God doesn’t exist.
    God: I believe Beaugan doesn’t exist.
    Arky: Make it so.

    I have never said I believe God doesn’t exist, Arky. I’ve said I don’t believe He does. These are different. You may not be able to see this, but work on it.

  99. egg_

    Try Pascal’s wager then.

    Try Pascal’s wager for catastrophic global warming.

    Would God allow “catastrophic global warming” or is such a thought the height of Man’s arrogance, as Scientists were saying back in the early noughties, before it was politicised?

  100. Arky

    Yeah, yeah, the absence of belief isn’t the belief in absence.

  101. DrBeauGan

    So what you are saying is: His emotional attachment to the word “causation” caused him to use it?

    Pretty much, yes. It isn’t necessary to use it to talk about predilection, but Dover really, really wants to.

  102. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    This is real life.

    and that is the difference between a physicist and mathematician. the later easily falls into the trap of determinism

  103. Fleeced

    Who does the Left in Australia always copy every bit of bullshit from US politics? (I’m thinking of the NRL/anthem nonsense here, but they do it with everything).

  104. Boambee John

    From Wiki, to lighten the deep philosophical discussion.

    Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein (14 August 1916 – 21 January 1944) was a German night fighter pilot and flying ace during World War II. An ace is a military aviator credited with shooting down five or more enemy aircraft in aerial combat.[1] At the time of his death, Sayn-Wittgenstein was the highest-scoring night fighter pilot in the Luftwaffe and still the third highest by the end of World War II, with 83 aerial victories to his credit.

  105. DrBeauGan

    Arky
    #3031071, posted on May 31, 2019 at 8:10 pm
    Yeah, yeah, the absence of belief isn’t the belief in absence.

    You’re coming along nicely, Arky. Keep it up.

  106. Arky

    I have never said I believe God doesn’t exist, Arky. I’ve said I don’t believe He does. These are different.

    ..
    So atheists are just particularly annoying agnostics?

  107. Nick

    I still can’t understand why the entire suburb of Collingwood didn’t invade next door Fitzroy,

    Given their lack of education, they went to Footscray instead.

  108. Roberto

    I’m out on my usual evening walk. Fairly chilly and windy here at Milson’s Point. But a lovely view of Circular Quay and the Opera House lit up for Vivid.

  109. candy

    Dr BeauGan, perhaps a shapely 25 year old God believing barmaid who fell in love with you would convert you to believing in God? lol. you never know.
    God speaks to us in all different ways.

  110. DrBeauGan

    and that is the difference between a physicist and mathematician. the later easily falls into the trap of determinism

    There’s a difference between subscribing to a determinist theory such as classical mechanics and believing that you can exactly replicate initial states in the real world.

  111. Arky

    Like agnostics with a psychological difficulty in saying “I dunno”?

  112. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    chill out time

  113. DrBeauGan

    So atheists are just particularly annoying agnostics?

    There’s something in this. An atheist just says that he doesn’t believe something, while an agnostic won’t come out and say it. Bloody fence sitters. Destined for Hell, the lot of them.

  114. Mother Lode

    Okay, enough for trivia night. Now to important matters.
    I watched John Wick 1 last night. Is John Wick 2 as good?

    I preferred John Wick 1. It was new and fresh and was a whole new world. The next movie was shackled slightly by the first, and the world it presented was no longer new.

    It is kind of logical that the most interesting movies take us outward beyond what we have seen before, but sequels must go inward to build on what they establish.

    This is why the second Godfather was so good – it broke from the first to cover the earlier origin of the Mafia.

    For what it is worth, the third version often works out why the second didn’t work.

    Think Indiana Jones – where they focussed on his abstruse knowledge in the second crap movie but returned to the Judeo-Christian thing in the third.

    And, boy, did they screw up the fourth.

  115. C.L.

    Who does the Left in Australia always copy every bit of bullshit from US politics? (I’m thinking of the NRL/anthem nonsense here, but they do it with everything).

    It’s called apeing.
    And they’ve been doing it for 50 years.
    Indeed, the whole anti-American thing was imported from America.

  116. DrBeauGan

    candy
    #3031080, posted on May 31, 2019 at 8:16 pm
    Dr BeauGan, perhaps a shapely 25 year old God believing barmaid who fell in love with you would convert you to believing in God? lol. you never know.
    God speaks to us in all different ways.

    She’d have to have some better arguments than anyone here, Candy. No matter how shapely.

  117. egg_

    The issue with God is what type is he; Paul Davies lists from memory 3 possibilities:

    The universe is God
    God lives within the universe
    God is outside the universe

    The brain is consciousness
    Consciousness lives within the brain
    Consciousness is outside the brain

  118. C.L.

    Atheists discussing God must be the oldest and most boring of all the internet ‘debates.’
    It was on a par with Bush = Hitler in about 2002.

  119. Leigh Lowe

    I refer, of course, to the final minutes of the 1979 Grand Final, when Wayne Harmes – knowing full well he was out of bounds by about three metres in the forward pocket – chipped it into the goalsquare for some nobody who kicked it through, sealing a five point Carlton victory.
    Famously, the football was found to have been so far out of bounds it had bits of a spectator’s pie on it.

    He was a fair way over the line.
    Rumour has it that he had a pass-out ticket in his shorts after the game.
    But the prize for the most shameful act on that ground goes to Sheedy’s pet Dean Wallis in the 1999 prelim. Essendon 1 point down with 1 minute to play. Wallis takes on Carlton tacklers with a bloke free to the side about 60 metres out. That bloke being Dustin Fletcher who would have barrelled it to the approximate spot in the carpark where Wayne Harmes retrieved the ball from.
    That was pretty much Carlton’s last moment of glory in modern times, but.

  120. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    There’s a difference between subscribing to a determinist theory such as classical mechanics and believing that you can exactly replicate initial states in the real world.

    I can’t see any evidence that would give you cause to believe that.

  121. DrBeauGan

    Like agnostics with a psychological difficulty in saying “I dunno”?

    I’m pretty sure I don’t believe in God, Arky. I suppose I could be wrong about that, but I don’t think so.

  122. dover_beach

    My definition of a (conditional) prediction did not use the term causation.

    You are becoming more desperate with every reply, DrBeauGan. You are now saying that so long as you don’t use the term, causation, you can nevertheless employ the concept; as in, if you do A you will observe B.

  123. Boambee John

    Not sure whether Sayn-Wittgenstein was related to the philosopher, but we could debate it all night.

    Or someone with energy could look it up.

  124. Leigh Lowe

    Atheists discussing God must be the oldest and most boring of all the internet ‘debates.’

    The argument can be distilled to:-
    1. No-one can prove God exists;
    2. I will now attempt to prove that He doesn’t.

  125. candy

    She’d have to have some better arguments than anyone here, Candy. No matter how shapely.

    Perhaps she would not need an “argument”, DrBeauGan. She may be shapely and pretty and you say “thank you God”, and there you go.

  126. Arky

    Atheists discussing God must be the oldest and most boring of all the internet ‘debates.’
    It was on a par with Bush = Hitler in about 2002.

    ..
    Well I think it is interesting that two scientifically knowledgeable individuals like Bruce and ah shit, Beaugan, can both look at the same world, with the same understanding of the fundamentals of it and one can think “This God stuff is ridiculous”. and tother thinks: “Here is, undeniably, the work of a divine intelligence”.

  127. egg_

    “But we also have to accept our responsibility that some of the policies that we put forward clearly didn’t connect with enough people.”

    no… I think they connected with too many people

    Bob Brown Green climbing out from under a rock probably got everyone’s attention.

  128. DrBeauGan

    I can’t see any evidence that would give you cause to believe that.

    Well one is a theory that says IF you know the initial state exactly you can predict a later state exactly, while the other is the factual observation that human beings never know the initial state, or anything much else, exactly. These aren’t incompatible.

  129. Nick

    Leigh, my favourite moment was when my Historian uncle, called the docent over at the Essendon ‘museum’ to inform him that one of the years they had on the wall as an Essendon premiership year, had actually been won by Carlton. They had to re-do the wall 🙂

  130. cohenite

    Diaconis has demonstrated that he can get heads seven or eight times out of ten.

    When he controls the variables.

  131. Bar Beach Swimmer

    Nomadic Aboriginal bands and modern Australia comparable as nations?

    ML, your point reflects the recent phenomenon in the media of interchanging civilisation and culture when discussing aboriginal social organisation. No one could argue with the presence of a distinct aboriginal culture/cultures pre first contact. But to suggest that that type of social system is a civilisation is a misuse of that term.

  132. DrBeauGan

    You are becoming more desperate with every reply, DrBeauGan. You are now saying that so long as you don’t use the term, causation, you can nevertheless employ the concept; as in, if you do A you will observe B.

    Strangely enough, I see you as equally desperate to force your language preference into definitions. I’m not employing the concept, I’m not employing the term. You insist on translating what I say into your preferred language. “What you’re saying is…”

  133. egg_

    The argument can be distilled to:-
    1. No-one can prove God exists;
    2. I will now attempt to prove that He doesn’t.

    That would be the Scientific Meffod dating back to the C 7th Muslims, where curiously the proof of a true prophet/theory is their predictive ability.
    Per Bant above: God = time, pre existing the “Big Bang”.

  134. Arky

    Introduction
    Coin-tossing is a basic example of a random phenomenon. However, naturally tossed
    coins obey the laws of mechanics (we neglect air resistance) and their flight is determined
    by their initial conditions. Figure 1 a-d shows a coin-tossing machine. The coin is placed on
    a spring, the spring released by a ratchet, the coin flips up doing a natural spin and lands
    in the cup. With careful adjustment, the coin started heads up always lands heads up – one
    hundred percent of the time. We conclude that coin-tossing is ‘physics’ not ‘random

    .
    Isn’t this just, bloody obvious?

  135. Fleeced

    It’s called apeing.

    RACIST!

  136. DrBeauGan

    Diaconis has demonstrated that he can get heads seven or eight times out of ten.

    When he controls the variables.

    Yes. He’s just much better at repeating a manual action than most of us.

  137. egg_

    The argument can be distilled to:-
    1. No-one can prove God exists;
    2. I will now attempt to prove that He doesn’t.

    That would be the Scientific Meffod dating back to the C 7th Mo’s, where curiously the proof of a true prophet/theory is their predictive ability.
    Per Bant above: God = time, pre existing the “Big Bang”.

  138. DrBeauGan

    Isn’t this just, bloody obvious?

    No. Zippy is pretty bright, and he didn’t believe it.

  139. Knuckle Dragger

    I just know that if I keep paying attention to this whole atheist/agnostic/God/physics cage fight, there will eventually be a ‘phrasing’ moment.

  140. Leigh Lowe

    Leigh, my favourite moment was when my Historian uncle, called the docent over at the Essendon ‘museum’ to inform him that one of the years they had on the wall as an Essendon premiership year, had actually been won by Carlton. They had to re-do the wall 🙂

    Neither of them have had cause to bother the signwriters of late.

  141. Fleeced

    Isn’t this just, bloody obvious?

    But why? Why does the coin obey these laws? Why doesn’t it try to bend the rules?

  142. Mother Lode

    Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein (14 August 1916 – 21 January 1944) was a German night fighter pilot and flying ace during World War II. An ace is a military aviator credited with shooting down five or more enemy aircraft in aerial combat.[1] At the time of his death, Sayn-Wittgenstein was the highest-scoring night fighter pilot in the Luftwaffe and still the third highest by the end of World War II, with 83 aerial victories to his credit.

    Wrong one.

    Ludwig Von Wittgenstein is the one being talked about. Contemporary with Russell and Moore.

    Ravel wrote a piano piece for one hand for Ludwig’s brother, a pianist who lost a hand in the First World War.

  143. Fleeced

    I just know that if I keep paying attention to this whole atheist/agnostic/God/physics cage fight, there will eventually be a ‘phrasing’ moment.

    Eventually. But you might have to wait until the second coming 😉

  144. egg_

    Schrodinger might have something to say about that paper

    Can the arrow of time be reversed and Schrodinger lets the cat out of the box?

  145. Lilliana

    incoherent rambler

    One question about UFOs.
    Why would someone who can travel between the stars (or galaxies) bother coming here?
    Or bother taking to us?

    I’ve asked the same questions for years. Curiosity?

  146. Tel

    Which calculations, Tel? Those of Newtonian mechanics?

    Most ODEs run into the same problem … but for the sake of specifying something use the three equations of the Lorenz System, because those are heavily studied already, and linked above.

    What boundary conditions? Now you are being silly, although not quite as silly as Arky.

    I already said you can pick any initial conditions, but here I’ll pick some for you … these are not special, they are for demonstration purposes.

    Initial conditions (t=0): set x = y= z = 1
    Static parameters: sigma=10, rho=28, beta=8/3
    Give the x, y, z for t=1000.

    So all the critical variables are specified precisely, to infinite precision. The ODE itself is smooth (as you insist already and I don’t dispute) and the system of equations is well known and very simple.

    As a math dude you should hopefully be able to find a unique answer there.

    If you feel like claiming that an answer does not exist, feel free to outline why.

  147. Knuckle Dragger

    If you were driving between Alice Springs and Darwin and went through Tennant Creek, and not having been there before you’d stop and have a look.

    Then you’d go ‘Right, this is shit then’ and take off for your original destination.

    IR’s alien question explained.

  148. Leigh Lowe

    Staying out of thi. God thing
    I can visualise myself at the Pearly Gates with St Peter going over my record …
    Pete : “Well, a few misdemeanours Leigh, but overall not enough of the crimes Izzy Folau referred to that warrants me pulling the trapdoor, so everything seems in order … (shuffles paper, frowns) … except … were you, by any chance, logged into Catallaxy Files on May 31st 2019?”

  149. Tel

    The argument can be distilled to:-
    1. No-one can prove God exists;
    2. I will now attempt to prove that He doesn’t.

    Atheism is a statement of operational efficiency, not a statement of belief.
    1. No-one can prove God exists;
    2. If God had any direct and measurable influence over my life that would constitute proof that God exists;
    3. I am totally safe to ignore God because it won’t make any difference anyway.

    If you don’t believe me then Chant Krishna and Live! After all, chanting Krishna might make God love you, and no one can prove otherwise.

  150. Frank

    and that is the difference between a physicist and mathematician. the later easily falls into the trap of determinism

    Erm, they can be pedants too. Most importantly they can be shown to wrong and have to own it. In the case of the former, all that measuring of things seems tedious and more than a bit déclassé.

  151. egg_

    Eddington travels to Príncipe to measure the deflection of starlight (effect) by the gravitational influence of the sun (cause) and we are meant to believe that the concept of causation was never in play at all.

    It’s rather odd that the Moon is just the right size to perfectly eclipse the Sun in the first place.
    Our Moon is way oversized as far as natural satellites go.

  152. cohenite

    Actually to be consistent God is chaos which is unpredictable.

  153. Nick

    Neither of them have had cause to bother the signwriters of late.

    Carlton’s premiership wall is almost an ancient history exhibit.

  154. Armadillo

    Friday night is blokes night, not geeks night.

    Sinc, please allocate a seperate night for geeks.

    It’s bad enough that the Sheliahs started coming in here on a Friday. Now this? FMD.

  155. Knuckle Dragger

    All I can say is you blokes are lucky Nota and None aren’t back from vespers yet.

    There’d be virtual testicles nailed to operating fans by now.

  156. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Well one is a theory that says IF you know the initial state exactly you can predict a later state exactly, while the other is the factual observation that human beings never know the initial state, or anything much else, exactly. These aren’t incompatible.

    IF never happens. in physics with a measurement there is always +/-

  157. egg_

    Why would someone who can travel between the stars (or galaxies) bother coming here?
    Or bother taking to us?

    They come to probe back woodsmen?

  158. Bar Beach Swimmer

    Bruce of Newcastle
    #3030634, posted on May 31, 2019 at 12:29 pm
    Some perfectly normal well adjusted adults like cartoons too.

    Fantasia is on 9Go at 6:30 pm.
    First time I recall that it has been on FTA tv. I haven’t seen it yet

    It’s been wonderful!

  159. Arky

    It’s all geometry.
    Everything else is just speculative bullshit.

  160. Mother Lode

    The universe is God
    God lives within the universe
    God is outside the universe

    A God equal to the universe is redundant if equality means being identical. If they are equal but not not identical then there will be instances where the universe behaves not according to the universe but according to ‘God’.

    God only makes sense by being beyond the universe, science, logic.

    I still don’t understand why more people are not troubled by the philosophy of breasts.

    A God within the universe is no God since the universe is greater.

  161. DrBeauGan

    As a math dude you should hopefully be able to find a unique answer there.

    If you feel like claiming that an answer does not exist, feel free to outline why.

    The existence theorem assures us that there is a unique function that solves your problem, Tel. It cannot be expressed in terms of elementary functions, however. To evaluate it requires approximation methods. But if you’re prepared to do the work and to specify the required precision, I will happily encourage you to go there. The bloke who wrote the demo program running on the website you linked to did it.

  162. Knuckle Dragger

    The bus conductors copping it from the Windies in the World Cup. 7/78 after 17 overs.

    Chris Gayle just ran about eight feet from first slip to catch a gloved ball that ballooned up.

    Token chick commentator: ‘Well, Gayle was catlike moving around for that one.’
    Michael Holding: ‘Errrrr……’

    TCC: ‘Not happy with that description, Michael?’
    Whispering Death: ‘Perhaps a 12 year old cat.’

  163. Mitch M.

    Still on about God? And here I am wondering if circles really exist. More mundane but interesting.

  164. Boambee John:

    Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein (14 August 1916 – 21 January 1944) was a German night fighter pilot and flying ace during World War II. An ace is a military aviator credited with shooting down five or more enemy aircraft in aerial combat.[1] At the time of his death, Sayn-Wittgenstein was the highest-scoring night fighter pilot in the Luftwaffe and still the third highest by the end of World War II, with 83 aerial victories to his credit.

    Coincidentally, I have the book written by his radar operator in my library. Apparently he flew most of his victories over Germany in a Junkers 88 fitted with Schrage Musik cannon.

  165. Notafan

    Why would either of us do that KD?

  166. Knuckle Dragger

    Pakis 8/81. 18 overs. Batting like dogshit.

    The cynic in me would almost say – batting like deliberate dogshit.

  167. Arky

    I still don’t understand why more people are not troubled by the philosophy of breasts.

    ..
    Geometry. Told ya.

  168. Black Ball

    Fred needs more Carlton pile on. Doomlord, get in here.

  169. John64

    Leigh, my favourite moment was when my Historian uncle, called the docent over at the Essendon ‘museum’ to inform him that one of the years they had on the wall as an Essendon premiership year, had actually been won by Carlton. They had to re-do the wall Neither of them have had cause to bother the signwriters of late.

    Essendon in 2000 comfortably the best VFL/AFL team I have ever seen.

    Amazing they have been also-rans ever since.

  170. Tel

    IF never happens. in physics with a measurement there is always +/-

    That’s correct with a physical system.

    However, I’m happy to allow precise integer initial conditions in a mathematical model. As proposed above with the Lorenz system just set them all to 1 at time zero. Knowing the initial conditions to infinite precision does not make the problem any easier to solve.

    Arky’s argument about drifting constants is also a possible real-world problem that might be causing errors in our physics, but hey don’t even worry about that.

    I’ll give perfectly static constants, all chosen with infinite precision, and an overall integer time period and even with all of that out the way … there’s still a very, very significant problem … right in the guts of those smooooooth and simple ODEs, when you go and try to solve them. It’s the off-beat heart of chaos theory.

  171. Knuckle Dragger

    Smacking up the Godless heathens, Nota.

    A backhanded compliment, if you like. I don’t have the faith, and there are some days – not every day, but some – when I envy those who do.

  172. Knuckle Dragger

    9/83.

    Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. They were 2/50 earlier.

  173. max

    How many of the extended Wittgenstein family topped themselves ?

    Was it seven ?

  174. Biota

    Mother Lode
    #3031134, posted on May 31, 2019 at 8:59 pm

    God is wholly other. I cannot find God except he finds me first. From one of the philosophers, Aquinas?

  175. max

    I’ll bet the Wittgensteins barracked for the bombers.

  176. Knuckle Dragger

    ‘How many of the extended Wittgenstein family topped themselves?’

    If their Sunday lunch and Christmas conversations were anything like this thread I’d say all of them, and understand why.

  177. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Introduction
    Coin-tossing is a basic example of a random phenomenon. However, naturally tossed
    coins obey the laws of mechanics (we neglect air resistance) and their flight is determined
    by their initial conditions. Figure 1 a-d shows a coin-tossing machine. The coin is placed on
    a spring, the spring released by a ratchet, the coin flips up doing a natural spin and lands
    in the cup. With careful adjustment, the coin started heads up always lands heads up – one
    hundred percent of the time. We conclude that coin-tossing is ‘physics’ not ‘random

    .
    Isn’t this just, bloody obvious?

    no, because there is still error in the measurements, so the coin toss machine might have a wide margin of error and only miss one in a million tosses. once you know the margins of error you can calculate the likely chance of a miss.

    further to suggest you can capture all the initial conditions is an interesting idea but not feasible. the environment is not reversible so even the subtle changes in temperature along the trajectory has some input into the results even if they are miniscule.

    it’s a misnomer to call things physics laws, they are actually just descriptions with a high degree of confidence.

  178. Mother Lode

    How many of the extended Wittgenstein family topped themselves ?

    Not the brother who lost in hand in WWI. he spent the rest of his days bashing his head against a wall trying to cave his skull in, with a right-handed revolver beside him on a table.

    When he was eventually found dead in the ruins of a building after a bombing raid in WWII it was declared misadventure due to enemy action, even though the nearest bombing raid was 100 miles away three nights later.

  179. Arky

    further to suggest you can capture all the initial conditions is an interesting idea but not feasible.

    ..
    You presume you know all the variables:
    Weight of the coin. Force imparted by the spring. Acceleration due to gravity at that altitude. The rotational…
    Oh I see.
    The rotation on a coin flip can be quick enough that even really, really, small changes in variables can effect outcome.
    What’s the argument? That you could measure the variables down to the last atom’s weight, and the last molecular interaction in the spring, but that at a certain set of conditions it would still be 50/50?

  180. Knuckle Dragger

    Pakis done for just over 100 inside 22 overs.

    John the Bookie has yet to make an appearance.

  181. Leigh Lowe

    Knuckles, who is this cricketer called Mong you keep referring to?
    I have looked up Cricinfo and I can’t find his stats anywhere.

  182. Leigh Lowe

    Knuckle Dragger

    #3031154, posted on May 31, 2019 at 9:25 pm

    Pakis done for just over 100 inside 22 overs.

    John the Bookie has yet to make an appearance.

    Get on “3 wides in the second over”.
    It’s on!

  183. Boambee John

    Mother Lode at 2044

    Wrong one.

    Ludwig Von Wittgenstein is the one being talked about. Contemporary with Russell and Moore.

    I know that it is not the same person. I was wondering if they were related.

  184. Nick

    Knuckles, who is this cricketer called Mong you keep referring to?

    The Chinese teams’ wicketkeeper.

  185. Armadillo

    Coin toss to see who kicks off? Yeah, wait mate. It’s a bit windy outside here. Let’s go to the laboratory and throw it on a machine. Heads side up.

    And we wonder why science is despised. Some dickhead at University probably got a $100k grant to do this shit. FMD. No one actually cares.

  186. egg_

    I’m not the coin tosser,
    I’m the coin tosser’s son…

  187. bespoke

    C.L.
    #3031091, posted on May 31, 2019 at 8:25 pm
    Atheists discussing God must be the oldest and most boring of all the internet ‘debates.’
    It was on a par with Bush = Hitler in about 2002.

    Must be nice to be so certain.

  188. Knuckle Dragger

    LL,

    Well there’s the obvious one with a busted arse, but there’s a few going around looking for a shot at the title.

    Strange comment to make on a philosophy/physics blog though.

  189. Armadillo

    Get on “3 wides in the second over”. It’s on!

    Bookies are almost always the victims of stuff like that.

  190. Arky

    And we wonder why science is despised. Some dickhead at University probably got a $100k grant to do this shit. FMD. No one actually cares.

    ..
    The rat- creature bookie doesn’t care that you can predict the outcome of coin tosses.
    I’m suspicious.

  191. Boambee John

    Winston at 2103

    At last, someone has joined me in attempting to lighten up the evening! Thank you.

    Coincidentally, I have the book written by his radar operator in my library. Apparently he flew most of his victories over Germany in a Junkers 88 fitted with Schrage Musik cannon.

    Once Schrage Musik came along, air gunners became essentially additional casualties, particularly nose and mid-uppers.

  192. dover_beach

    Strangely enough, I see you as equally desperate to force your language preference into definitions. I’m not employing the concept, I’m not employing the term. You insist on translating what I say into your preferred language. “What you’re saying is…”

    Not at all. You are pretending that saying “if you do certain things, you will observe certain things” is somehow different to saying, “if you do A, you will observe B’ as if saying this does not imply that what is observed, B, is caused by A. It’s not as if you’ve explained how ‘if you do certain things, you will observe certain things” is fundamentally different to A causes B.

  193. DrBeauGan

    Still on about God? And here I am wondering if circles really exist. More mundane but interesting

    I solved this when I was a teenager and got into an argument with an attractive chick at a Mensa meeting. Well, I was young and innocent.

    It depends on what you mean by a circle and what you mean by exist. In one sense, a circle is a piece of language. You define it as a set of points. In the other sense, there are physical objects you can point at, like the top of a can of baked beans. The latter certainly exist in the ordinary sense of the word, but close examination shows they are never exactly circular.

    Do sets and geometric points exist? Well, within language they do. It is quite useful to describe the top of a can as being circular. The understanding that Zippy mentioned is that real life always requires a +/-. So there are no circles in the physical universe, but some things come close enough to make the language useful.

  194. Mitch M.

    Do sets and geometric points exist? Well, within language they do. It is quite useful to describe the top of a can as being circular. The understanding that Zippy mentioned is that real life always requires a +/-. So there are no circles in the physical universe, but some things come close enough to make the language useful.

    It was meant to be a joke and to illustrate the deceptiveness of natural language.

  195. Leigh Lowe

    Strange comment to make on a philosophy/physics blog though.

    Wake me up when we get to …

    One train leaves Chicago for New York travelling at 80 mph. Another train leaves New York for Chicago an hour later traveling at 66 mph. How far yadda, yadda, yadda.

  196. Biota

    Dr BG, the top of a baked beans can will be anything from a circle to an ellipse of varying size depending on your POV.

  197. rugbyskier

    I have an anecdote that provides an insight into the character of Peter Fitzsimons. I was at the domestic terminal at Auckland Airport during the 2011 Rugby World Cup waiting for a flight at the cafe opposite the security checkpoint. Peter Fitzsimons was wandering around the terminal pushing one of the small trolleys holding his cabin bag and when he decided to go through security he pushed the trolley past the sign saying “No trolleys beyond this point” into the channels leading to the checkpoint, then got his bag off the trolley leaving it blocking the entrance to the checkpoint and walked off to the security scanners.

    He couldn’t have cared less that he blocked the access to the checkpoint for all the other passengers in the terminal and thought that he was too important to go and put the trolley away, that was a job for some plebeian to do.

  198. Leigh Lowe

    max

    #3031149, posted on May 31, 2019 at 9:12 pm

    I’ll bet the Wittgensteins barracked for the bombers

    Hmmm.
    They sound a little bit Hahndorf to me.
    Probably Adelaide supporters I’d say.

  199. DrBeauGan

    Not at all. You are pretending that saying “if you do certain things, you will observe certain things” is somehow different to saying, “if you do A, you will observe B’ as if saying this does not imply that what is observed, B, is caused by A. It’s not as if you’ve explained how ‘if you do certain things, you will observe certain things” is fundamentally different to A causes B.

    Oh gawd. “If you do A you will observe B” is a piece of language which does not predicate that causes exist. If you want to use your “A causes B” as shorthand for the first sentence, then I don’t mind. But then you can’t assert that causes exist. They are just your preferred form of language and do not occur as perceived entities in the physical world.

    I’m getting a bit tired of explaining this to you.

  200. Mother Lode

    God is wholly other. I cannot find God except he finds me first. From one of the philosophers, Aquinas?

    Kind of my point. God transcends logic rather than existing within a world subject to logic.

    God could not be bound by logic since logic would describe states of affairs where He could not act God-like. Similarly it is not possible to test for the presence of God since it is not possible to empirically compare circumstances where he existed and where he did not.

    It is a bit like ‘nothingness’ – any attribute you give it means it is not nothingness. When you say ‘Excalibur’ does not exist you have to conceptualise as existing Excalibur first.

    But what about the breast thing?

  201. Knuckle Dragger

    Quick check of the footy scores. A quick break from the discussion of indecipherable abstracts, I thought.

    Sorely disappointed.

    McAvaney: ‘Gee, North are Tigering the Tigers!’

    It’s everywhere.

  202. Black Ball

    Richmond doing their best to replicate the deeds of Appin FC in their last year in 1995. Winless we were. Don’t look likely at all do the Tiggers.

  203. Biota

    But what about the breast thing?

    Hmmm, I need to feel my way around that!

  204. Knuckle Dragger

    Thank Holy God for that!!!!!

    ‘I need to feel my way around that’

    PHRASING!

    (h/t Archer)

  205. cohenite

    DrBeauGan

    #3031167, posted on May 31, 2019 at 9:36 pm

    I saw what you did there.

  206. dover_beach

    Atheism is a statement of operational efficiency, not a statement of belief.
    1. No-one can prove God exists;
    2. If God had any direct and measurable influence over my life that would constitute proof that God exists;
    3. I am totally safe to ignore God because it won’t make any difference anyway.

    Premise 1 is unfounded and premise 2 is ambiguous. Further, the distinction between ‘statement of operational efficiency’ and ‘statement of belief’ is incoherent. Statements of belief are truth-statements so they can be either right or wrong, but statements of ‘operational efficiency’ aren’t truth-statements at all but are concerned with the effort required to receive some desired result. So , if you’re saying that atheism has nothing to do with truth we are in agreement.

  207. Arky

    “If you do A you will observe B” is a piece of language which does not predicate that causes exist.

    ..
    State an instance where doing A and you will observe B and where A is not the cause of B.

  208. MatrixTransform

    as if you’ve explained how ‘if you do certain things, you will observe certain things” is fundamentally different to A causes B.

    Dude, yr refuting yr own argument

  209. egg_

    Harold Blum’s 1951 book Time’s Arrow and Evolution[5] “explored the relationship between time’s arrow (the second law of thermodynamics) and organic evolution.” This influential text explores “irreversibility and direction in evolution and order, negentropy, and evolution.”[6] Blum argues that evolution followed specific patterns predetermined by the inorganic nature of the earth and its thermodynamic processes.[7]

  210. MatrixTransform

    how can whiskey drinkers keep up if you wont pick a side and stay on it?

  211. Nick

    Bruce is aching to be on a Mardi Gras float.

  212. Nick

    The Paki opener is Fakhar Zaman. Of course..l

  213. Black Ball

    Obviously Brad Scott had lost his players. Only reason why he would be moved on. Disgraceful shit by the Roos. Should be swinging from lampposts these blokes.

  214. Leigh Lowe

    State an instance where doing A and you willobserve B and where A is not the cause of B.

    If you turn to face East at 7:10 a.m. tomorrow you will observe the sun rise.
    You turning to face East did not cause the sun to rise.
    Case closed.
    Now, can we get back to talking sport and hooters?

  215. MatrixTransform

    Don’t look likely at all do the Tiggers.

    Shit, how bad is it? I too ashamed to look at the tv

  216. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Once Schrage Musik came along, air gunners became essentially additional casualties, particularly nose and mid-uppers.

    Had the privilege of working with a former air gunner, in Lancasters, who had survived a Schrage Musik attack……

  217. Knuckle Dragger

    I had thought they’d wear themselves out by now, LL. No-one’s used the word ‘paradigm’ yet though.

    But they just keep going.

    It’s like watching seven cats trying to out-stare each other.

  218. Arky

    If you turn to face East at 7:10 a.m. tomorrow you will observe the sun rise.
    You turning to face East did not cause the sun to rise.

    ..
    Yes it did.

  219. Biota

    Spent a lot of time in my early childhood wondering if things were really there when you weren’t looking at them. Used to stand still then flick around fast to see if I could catch an object appearing. I was never fast enough so I still don’t know.

  220. Arky

    If you turn to face East at 7:10 a.m. tomorrow you will observe the sun rise.
    You turning to face East did not cause the sun to rise.

    ..
    How drunk are you anyway?
    Do you really think every time you face East the sun rises?

  221. Stimpson J. Cat

    Reminder that you should all possibly have a look at the new Gaiman Pratchett Good Omens TV Series finally out right now.
    😁

  222. Mark A

    Arky
    #3031181, posted on May 31, 2019 at 9:53 pm

    “If you do A you will observe B” is a piece of language which does not predicate that causes exist.
    ..
    State an instance where doing A and you will observe B and where A is not the cause of B.

    happens millions of times, well often enough to observe.

    Like I pushed the ped crossing button the other day to go through north and suddenly the green light came on for the other direction, (east) .

    Did I cause it?

  223. Knuckle Dragger

    Don’t look at it LL!

    Keep your eyes SHUT!

  224. Armadillo

    Just been reading a few articles on “Climate Bookmaking”. Not much there at present. Very small market with minimal bets. Don’t get me wrong, there has been massive bets (in the billions) laid by the UN and Governments worldwide with YOUR money. It’s all flowing one way. They can’t lose. Their mates get the cash, and they all feed off it.

    Flannery and Co, the Greens and the “Warmists” need to start putting their own money where their mouth is. So should the entirety of Hollywood. Show us your betting slip, or shut the fuck up.

    Seems to me that this might just be the ideal way to “close down the scam”.

    Flannery should have had at least a million on “the dams never filling again” @ $1.04 since it was so inevitable. Al Gore should be living in a cardboard box.

    The way to defeat these dickheads is via the market, and their own pockets. There is zero accountability.

    Note: Don’t offer a bet on a market they can manipulate via Government (for example, temperature records).

  225. dover_beach

    Oh gawd. “If you do A you will observe B” is a piece of language which does not predicate that causes exist. If you want to use your “A causes B” as shorthand for the first sentence, then I don’t mind. But then you can’t assert that causes exist. They are just your preferred form of language and do not occur as perceived entities in the physical world.

    If “if you do A you will observe B” does not predicate causes or effects or the relation between them, what does it predicate, and how is it substantially different to causation? You’ve been rather evasive on this point.

  226. Oh come on

    Was thumbing through the letters to the editor section of my local rag just then. A bloke has written in, responding to what sounds like the unhinged ranting of a vegan activist. He mocked them and their silly, deranged cult. He pointed out one or two flaws in their reasoning. His full name was published, along with the suburb and street he lives in.

    Bloody hell. He is going to be deluged with vile hate mail, scary envelopes containing unidentified white powder, the works. His home may well be drenched in red paint – maybe even fire bombed!

    Vegans are eminently mockable, but it’s best to do so anonymously; assuming you aren’t well armed (which virtually no one is these days). These people are genuinely fanatical and you mess with them at your peril.

  227. Leigh Lowe

    Do you really think every time you face East the sun rises?

    It does for me.
    Praise the Lord.

  228. Knuckle Dragger

    Oh God!

    It’s sucking in the normies!

  229. DrBeauGan

    Arky
    #3031193, posted on May 31, 2019 at 10:00 pm
    If you turn to face East at 7:10 a.m. tomorrow you will observe the sun rise.
    You turning to face East did not cause the sun to rise.

    ..
    Yes it did.

    Boy, do you have problems.

  230. Arky

    Like I pushed the ped crossing button the other day to go through north and suddenly the green light came on for the other direction, (east) .

    Did I cause it?

    ..
    The sentence said will.
    Does it happen every time you push the button?

  231. dover_beach

    If you turn to face East at 7:10 a.m. tomorrow you will observe the sun rise.
    You turning to face East did not cause the sun to rise.

    That is true but the denial depends upon a concept of causation.

  232. Leigh Lowe

    The Paki opener is Fakhar Zaman. Of course..l

    Furqhan Derya at number 3.

  233. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    These people are genuinely fanatical and you mess with them at your peril.

    Vegans and Greens are the new Fascists of this society.

  234. Stimpson J. Cat

    So there are no circles in the physical universe

    Oh yes there are.
    I have to watch you f$cking ding dongs going round and round in them every time this topic comes up.
    Lucky I already am mad otherwise it would be enough to send me mad.
    😁

  235. Leigh Lowe

    Knuckles, I did make an attempt to get us back to core business of sport and ladies bits, but to no avail.
    Done me best.
    I blame business leviafans and corporate behemoffs.

  236. DrBeauGan

    If “if you do A you will observe B” does not predicate causes or effects or the relation between them, what does it predicate, and how is it substantially different to causation? You’ve been rather evasive on this point.

    See LL at 9:57. Just for an example where your causality is quite definitely not predicated. My statement does not contain any metaphysics, it predicates nothing. It is a definition of a prediction.

  237. Arky

    I’m watching this stupid John Wick crap you idiots were going on about.
    it’s just van inferior Boon Dock Saints with that annoying Keano dickhead.
    Lift yer games.

  238. Fisky

    Vegans are inherently angry and unstable people, and a threat to the welfare of children. We should probably ban veganism.

  239. Knuckle Dragger

    Jesus wept.

    Norf Melb’n are going to cost me three weeks of perfect tipping in a row.

  240. Oh come on

    Last year in early December, (presumably) some vegan activists stuck a poster on one of the pillars of a freeway overpass above a heavily trafficked intersection near where I lived. The poster displayed a photograph of a pig and a caption underneath that read “I am not a Christmas ham. I am a person”

    That is literally what it said. That a pig is a person. Reasoning with the people who made this poster is impossible.

    There is one thing I know for certain, though – my love for Christmas ham is vastly stronger than their hatred of my diet.

  241. Mark A

    OK, a trivial factoid.

    Did you know, that there is only one country between Finland and North Korea?

  242. MatrixTransform

    a

    and how is it substantially different to causation?

    sematics doesnt cause god.
    the best argument for god, is no argument at all.
    Cats should agree on this … even Schrödinger’s

  243. Stimpson J. Cat

    If you turn to face East at 7:10 a.m. tomorrow you will observe the sun rise.
    You turning to face East did not cause the sun to rise.
    Case closed.

    Not if my eyes are covered because I am wearing two Pirate Eyepatches at the same time.

    Checkmate, fascists!!

  244. Stimpson J. Cat

    Vegans are inherently angry and unstable people, and a threat to the welfare of children. We should probably ban veganism.

    It’s happening Fisky.
    Be patient.

    The Spectator Index
    @spectatorindex
    BELGIUM: Doctors at Royal Academy of Medicine say parents who raise their children as vegans should be prosecuted
    10:17 AM · May 19, 2019

  245. DrBeauGan

    That is true but the denial depends upon a concept of causation.

    Doubtful. If you incline to the theory that the Earth rotates on its axis and throw in assumptions about the latitude and longitude of the observer, you can deduce the consequence of seeing the sun rise without any causes. Of course, you can insist on the rotation of the earth as “causing” the sunrise if you are desperate. Which you are.

  246. Armadillo

    I should also be running a market on political promises.

    If elected “I will……..do such and such”.

    Ok, show us your betting slip and post it on Twitter and Facebook, you lying cretins. Put your money where your mouth is.

    The betting market would make all these people more accountable.

    Note: Only allow bets whereby they can’t use YOUR money to win. They have to take a hit from their own pocket if they fuck up by promising something that they can’t deliver. The punters are soon going to figure out who is serious or not.

  247. Stimpson J. Cat

    I’m watching this stupid John Wick crap you idiots were going on about.
    it’s just van inferior Boon Dock Saints with that annoying Keano dickhead.
    Lift yer games.

    Go watch The Piano or Once Were Warriors.
    They are more your speed.
    😁

  248. Oh come on

    Vegans are inherently angry and unstable people, and a threat to the welfare of children. We should probably ban veganism.

    Haha it is true! And this is actually no joke. The vegans are a genuine threat to public safety and they will only become more dangerous. If you have decided that an animal such as a chicken and a human should be afforded identical rights, then of course you will feel justified in taking violent action to prevent the chicken [email protected] that goes on at Steggles and Ingham every day. You would view your actions as being as justifiable as the allied liberation of the [email protected] zi death camps in 1944-1945.

  249. Leigh Lowe

    Oh gawd. “If you do A you will observe B” is a piece of language which does not predicate that causes exist. If you want to use your “A causes B” as shorthand for the first sentence, then I don’t mind. But then you can’t assert that causes exist. They are just your preferred form of language and do not occur as perceived entities in the physical world.

    If “if you do A you will observe B” does not predicate causes or effects or the relation between them, what does it predicate, and how is it substantially different to causation? You’ve been rather evasive on this point.

    Pretty standard stuff.
    Brad Scott was always banging on about that in his half-time rev-ups.

  250. egg_

    If you turn to face East at 7:10 a.m. tomorrow you will observe the sun rise.

    Unless you’re facing the Walkie Talkie Skyscraper.

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