For they were jolly good fellows

It will be a shame if the Liberal Party’s 75th anniversary celebration this weekend is overshadowed by a growing scandal about old horses being sent to the knackery. But let’s be kind and celebrate the party’s two greatest achievements. First: sidelining and snuffing out communist infiltration into Australian democracy. More than an honourable mention is also due to B.A. Santamaria and the Catholic Social Studies Movement. Scroll down to the audio file at this link to hear Labor leader H.V. Evatt’s comical reliance on the word of Vyacheslav Molotov that the Petrov documents – which named members of the Opposition Leader’s staff – were forgeries. This was the moment Evatt lost the support of his own party; it was possibly also the moment he finally lost his faculties. Robert Menzies’ rebuttal (audio at the same link) was calm and utterly devastating. The compromised ALP was banished to oblivion for a generation. By a strange twist of timing, however, Reds are again under our beds but this time they’re Chinese. Being Chinese, far more of them fit under there.
———-
Second: the triumph that wasn’t. In the 1960s, the late Bert Kelly laid the foundations – he would say, modest foundations – for a genuinely free trade mentality to begin driving economic policy in the post-Menzies era. Oddly, he succeeded at the grand policy level only as an influence on Gough Whitlam whose tariff cut in 1973 was culturally shocking at the time. Although Whitlam is given credit as a technocrat capable of thinking outside of the labour movement box, I’ve always believed the cut was more a function of his Mandarin upbringing (the instilled loathing of dirty commerce and its Liberal practitioners) than it was an impartial dalliance with laissez-faire rationalism. Malcolm Fraser had several other Dries to deploy and draw from intellectually – John Hyde, Peter Shack, Jim Carlton, the younger John Howard, Kelly (qua columnist) – but he played it safe as a traditional Australian dirigiste. Even so, it was the Dries who kept the market fires burning in the 1970s, culminating in the Campbell Inquiry and its now storied report. A floating exchange rate, foreign banks and deregulation of the banking sector followed. Alas for the Dries, none of it happened under a Liberal prime minister. But it was Liberals who made it possible. Nobody knows what Paul Keating was doing in the 1970s but it wasn’t deep thinking about marketising the Australian economy.

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344 Responses to For they were jolly good fellows

  1. Fisky
    #3188579, posted on October 19, 2019 at 8:11 pm

    Jesus dotty you aren’t getting this at all – the reality is closer relations are destroying OUR liberties and forcing all levels of society to align closer to the CCP.

    No Fisk.

    Look at your own government.

    We could close ourselves off to China tomorrow and we’d be pretty much the same in terms of civil liberties.

    Our own government is the putative and virtually sole cause of our hampered state of liberties in Australia.

  2. Fisky

    The university cannot shut the academic up.

    Oh yes they can dotty. In myriad ways. Making them totally unwelcome at staff events. Denying promotions. Cutting their classes Even risking unfair dismissal if they really want them out. dismissal

  3. Fisky

    So anyway, from now on every time there is a material crackdown on free speech by the CCP, guess who gets dragged over here to explain why they fully support the CCP. That’s right dotty!

  4. Making them totally unwelcome at staff events.

    You can’t be fucking serious. The VC is going to turn up at school drinks on friday with Chinese minders and put salt in their beer?

    Denying promotions.

    If the Chinese already decide who gets promoted at unis, they’ve already taken over.

    “The university” per the VC has stuff all to do with in school staff promotions. The heads and so on would all have to go along with it. You’re telling me this ends if we just increase our taxes a little.

    Where have I heard this before?

    Even risking unfair dismissal if they really want them out.

    That’s not going to happen.

    Imagine the court case. It would blow the lid of this sort of thing and make it go public.

  5. Arky

    You are right.
    I finally concede.
    We should not have tariffs.
    The way to deal with China is a total embargo.
    Free trade rules.
    Feel free to trade freely with any of the other 194 countries in the world.
    Except maybe North Korea and Iran.

  6. Fisky
    #3188587, posted on October 19, 2019 at 8:18 pm

    So anyway, from now on every time there is a material crackdown on free speech by the CCP, guess who gets dragged over here to explain why they fully support the CCP. That’s right dotty!

    Just despicable.

    You blatantly, demonstrably lied about wage growth and now you smear and carry on with no consideration of other people’s personal lives or careers.

  7. jupes

    No they’re not. We’ve got corrupt MPs and one whinging Chinese consul.

    Yeah. Plenty of them but not one of them has been charged. We have a state government signing up to “Belt and Road”. We have university departments bought and paid for by the Chicoms. We have university professors helping them develop military technology. We have ex-Prime Ministers shilling for the Chicoms. We have a major political party advocating defence cooperation. We have sold Darwin Port to the evil fucks and we have imported a million of them to live here.

    What could possibly go wrong?

  8. As for “wait until it effects you” [you said it first], Arky, you want to end all exports to China – which would wipe out hundreds of thousands of high paying, private sector jobs within months.

    Jobs that see large royalty, corporate tax and income tax revenues.

    We’d go massively into national debt and unemployment would skyrocket.

    …and the Chinese regime would still be in power.

    Maybe you don’t care because you are a foreigner.

  9. jupes
    #3188592, posted on October 19, 2019 at 8:25 pm

    No they’re not. We’ve got corrupt MPs and one whinging Chinese consul.

    Yeah. Plenty of them but not one of them has been charged. We have a state government signing up to “Belt and Road”. We have university departments bought and paid for by the Chicoms. We have university professors helping them develop military technology. We have ex-Prime Ministers shilling for the Chicoms. We have a major political party advocating defence cooperation. We have sold Darwin Port to the evil fucks and we have imported a million of them to live here.

    What could possibly go wrong?

    Very well said.

    All my point is this:

    Don’t put taxes up. It won’t help!

  10. Arky

    Seriously a libertarian making the Jerbs! argument?
    How many fucking times have you come on here mocking anyone making that argument?
    Are you for fucking real?

  11. Arky

    Anyway.
    Keep supporting China.
    I have heaps more videos to link to I want on record here.
    What the fuck, They are already going to sell my organs to fat German fucks if I ever go there.

  12. Arky
    #3188597, posted on October 19, 2019 at 8:28 pm

    Think of the jerbs!

    251,000 jobs in the mining sector.

    That doesn’t include services to mining.

    35% of exports (roughly) is from mining.

    This is not something to be flippant about.

  13. Arky

    The jerbs! The jerbs! Won’t anyone think of the jerbs!

  14. Arky

    Dude, you cannot come on here making that argument.
    You mocked it for a decade.
    Fuck off.

  15. Arky
    #3188599, posted on October 19, 2019 at 8:30 pm

    Seriously a libertarian making the Jerbs! argument?
    How many fucking times have you come on here mocking anyone making that argument?
    Are you for fucking real?

    They are high paying, unsubsidised private sector* jobs that pay for a heap of foreign exchange and a lot of welfare bums and public servants/teachers salaries.

    *In fact, mining faces a negative effective rate of protection.

  16. Arky
    #3188602, posted on October 19, 2019 at 8:36 pm

    The jerbs! The jerbs! Won’t anyone think of the jerbs!
    Arky
    #3188604, posted on October 19, 2019 at 8:36 pm

    Dude, you cannot come on here making that argument.
    You mocked it for a decade.
    Fuck off.

    You’re a moron. Protectionism destroys MORE jobs than it creates.

    You want protectionism (or seething hatred of an awful regime) to put 1% of the population – not the workforce out of work – in jobs that are not leeching off other industries or businesses.

    This is just pig headed, reckless and bloody awful.

  17. Arky
    #3188600, posted on October 19, 2019 at 8:34 pm

    Anyway.
    Keep supporting China.

    Despicable nonsense.

    You are now demanding we put 1% of the population (THE POPULATION, NOT THE WORKFORCE) out of work, (excluding services to mining, which, on top of the massive layoffs, with multiplier effects, in total would be absolutely horrific); and it won’t do a damned thing to end the CCP’s regime.

    Utterly, utterly stupid and asinine.

  18. Arky

    Won’t anyone think of the jerbs!

  19. Arky

    You are a despicable shit.

  20. Arky

    high paying, unsubsidised private sector* jobs

    ..
    See how high paying they are once there there is no alternative supply chains to China.
    What the fuck do you think Trump is trying to do? What the fuck do you think those aldi bags of cash are trying to stop?

  21. Arky
    #3188626, posted on October 19, 2019 at 8:47 pm

    high paying, unsubsidised private sector* jobs

    ..
    See how high paying they are once there there is no alternative supply chains to China.
    What the fuck do you think Trump is trying to do? What the fuck do you think those aldi bags of cash are trying to stop?

    One belt one road (even if they pull it off, it has a huge lead time anyway) won’t mean China controls world prices. They put a train line through Burma…and; BHP or Gina probably still want to ship straight to Shanghai to the economic buyer because they don’t pay inter modal plus rail freight fees.

    Not even OPEC could control the price of oil.

    There is no way a buyer can dictate terms to the rest of the world. It is impossible to be a monopoly buyer in the world economy. Maybe an exception is US defence hardware.

  22. Arky
    #3188620, posted on October 19, 2019 at 8:44 pm

    You are a despicable shit.

    No, I am honest, forthright and I have shown empirical evidence of my assertions.

  23. Arky

    Why do you want so much, so desperately, for our supply chains to run through China?

  24. Err, if they are selling to China? Thermal coal to China; we’ve banned this in some States, haven’t we?

    If want vertical integration, we can stop treating business and consumers (personal income taxpayers) like shit.

  25. Arky

    China stands accused of a gruesome trade in human organs. It’s difficult to prove, because the victims’ bodies are disposed of and the only witnesses are the doctors, police and prison guards involved. Even so, the evidence supports a damning verdict.

    The charge is that many prisoners of conscience—Falun Gong members, Uighur Muslims, Tibetan Buddhists and “underground” Christians—have been subjected to medical testing and had their organs forcibly removed. Those organs have fed an enormous trade in organ transplants.

    – Wall Street Journal.
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-nightmare-of-human-organ-harvesting-in-china-11549411056
    Read it all Dot.

  26. Arky

    China stands accused of a gruesome trade in human organs. It’s difficult to prove, because the victims’ bodies are disposed of and the only witnesses are the doctors, police and prison guards involved. Even so, the evidence supports a damning verdict.

    The charge is that many prisoners of conscience—Falun Gong members, Uighur M*slims, Tibetan Buddhists and “underground” Christians—have been subjected to medical testing and had their organs forcibly removed. Those organs have fed an enormous trade in organ transplants.

    – Wall Street Journal.
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-nightmare-of-human-organ-harvesting-in-china-11549411056
    Read it all Dot.

  27. Arky

    Free trade is good right?
    Should I be able to impinge on your right to pre-order an organ from China?
    Dot?

  28. I don’t want to buy liquor from a hijacked truck, or any other ill-gotten gains either.

  29. Arky

    Zheng Qiaozhi — we will call him George — still has nightmares. He was interning at China’s Shenyang Army General Hospital when he was drafted to be part of an organ-harvesting team.

    The prisoner was brought in, tied hand and foot, but very much alive. The army doctor in charge sliced him open from chest to belly button and exposed his two kidneys. “Cut the veins and arteries,” he told his shocked intern. George did as he was told. Blood spurted everywhere.

    The kidneys were placed in an organ-transplant container.

    Then the doctor ordered George to remove the man’s eyeballs. Hearing that, the dying prisoner gave him a look of sheer terror, and George froze. “I can’t do it,” he told the doctor, who then quickly scooped out the man’s eyeballs himself.

    George was so unnerved by what he had seen that he soon quit his job at the hospital and returned home. Later, afraid that he might be the next victim of China’s forced organ-transplant business, he fled to Canada and assumed a new identity.

    First-person accounts like George’s are understandably rare. The “transplant tourists” who come to China are naturally told nothing about the “donors” of their new heart, liver or kidney. And those who are executed for their organs tell no tales.

    Experts estimate that between 60,000 and 100,000 organs are transplanted annually in China. Multiply that number times the cost of a liver transplant ($170,000) or a kidney transplant ($130,000), and the result is an eye-popping $10 billion to 20 billion.

    ..
    https://nypost.com/2019/06/01/chinese-dissidents-are-being-executed-for-their-organs-former-hospital-worker-says/
    – New York Post.

  30. Arky

    Zheng Qiaozhi — we will call him George — still has nightmares. He was interning at China’s Shenyang Army General Hospital when he was drafted to be part of an organ-harvesting team.

    The prisoner was brought in, tied hand and foot, but very much alive. The army doctor in charge sliced him open from chest to belly button and exposed his two kidneys. “Cut the veins and arteries,” he told his shocked intern. George did as he was told. Blood spurted everywhere.

    The kidneys were placed in an organ-transplant container.

    Then the doctor ordered George to remove the man’s eyeballs. Hearing that, the dying prisoner gave him a look of sheer terror, and George froze. “I can’t do it,” he told the doctor, who then quickly scooped out the man’s eyeballs himself.

    George was so unnerved by what he had seen that he soon quit his job at the hospital and returned home. Later, afraid that he might be the next victim of China’s forced organ-transplant business, he fled to Canada and assumed a new identity.

    First-person accounts like George’s are understandably rare. The “transplant tourists” who come to China are naturally told nothing about the “donors” of their new heart, liver or kidney. And those who are executed for their organs tell no tales.

    Experts estimate that between 60,000 and 100,000 organs are transplanted annually in China. Multiply that number times the cost of a liver transplant ($170,000) or a kidney transplant ($130,000), and the result is an eye-popping $10 billion to 20 billion.

    ..
    https://nypost.com/2019/06/01/chinese-dissidents-are-being-executed-for-their-organs-former-hospital-worker-says/
    – New York Post.

  31. Tel

    Oh yes they can dotty. In myriad ways. Making them totally unwelcome at staff events. Denying promotions. Cutting their classes Even risking unfair dismissal if they really want them out. dismissal

    Yes dismissal! They can Ridd themselves of problematic opinions.

  32. Arky

    Zheng Qiaozhi — we will call him George — still has nightmares. He was interning at China’s Shenyang Army General Hospital when he was drafted to be part of an organ-harvesting team.

    The prisoner was brought in, tied hand and foot, but very much alive. The army doctor in charge sliced him open from chest to belly button and exposed his two kidneys. “Cut the veins and arteries,” he told his shocked intern. George did as he was told. Blood spurted everywhere.

    The kidneys were placed in an organ-transplant container.

    Then the doctor ordered George to remove the man’s [email protected] Hearing that, the dying prisoner gave him a look of sheer terror, and George froze. “I can’t do it,” he told the doctor, who then quickly scooped out the man’s [email protected] himself.

    George was so unnerved by what he had seen that he soon quit his job at the hospital and returned home. Later, afraid that he might be the next victim of China’s forced organ-transplant business, he fled to Canada and assumed a new identity.

    First-person accounts like George’s are understandably rare. The “transplant tourists” who come to China are naturally told nothing about the “donors” of their new heart, liver or kidney. And those who are executed for their organs tell no tales.

    Experts estimate that between 60,000 and 100,000 organs are transplanted annually in China. Multiply that number times the cost of a liver transplant ($170,000) or a kidney transplant ($130,000), and the result is an eye-popping $10 billion to 20 billion.

    ..
    https://nypost.com/2019/06/01/chinese-dissidents-are-being-executed-for-their-organs-former-hospital-worker-says/
    – New York Post.

  33. Arky

    Are these stories about organ harvesting true?
    Or are they part of some anti- China propaganda?
    What weight should be put on it and what should be done?
    If true, what part does this play in repressing the Chinese people, and how is free trade with such a system even possible?

  34. You tell me Arky.

    Anyone who gets hospitalised in China might benefit from this awful practice.

    Do we ban all travel to China?

    Regardless,

    We’re better off if we simply abolish tariffs here in Australia. We can be free traders, even if no one took Trump up on his offer.

  35. Arky

    Multiple lines of evidence
    The tribunal heard evidence that some hospitals in China offer organ transplants with very short waiting times. This would be impossible without a large bank of people with known tissue types who can be killed to order, said Nice, a former UK judge who previously prosecuted former Serbian president Slobodan Milošević at the UN’s International Criminal Tribunal.

    The tribunal was told of an investigation run by another campaign group, the World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong, in 2018. The group asked researchers to pretend to be doctors and ring up senior transplant doctors in Chinese hospitals to try to book transplants. Some were offered waits as short as one or two weeks. In nine of the 12 hospitals contacted, doctors verbally confirmed that the organs would be sourced from Falun Gong members.

    Some websites advertise in English for foreign patients to visit Chinese hospitals for transplants, says David Matas, a Canadian human rights lawyer. Selling organs to foreigners is against an international convention known as the Declaration of Istanbul.

    Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2206874-prisoners-in-china-are-still-being-used-as-organ-donors-says-inquiry/#ixzz62nK0UYu4

  36. jupes

    We’re better off if we simply abolish tariffs here in Australia. We can be free traders, even if no one took Trump up on his offer.

    Is it still free trade if we abolish tariffs and the other country applies tariffs to our products?

  37. Arky

    Violating this ethical principle by selling organs from executed prisoners to foreign (and Chinese) patients might seem enough to make China a pariah in the international transplant community. But this is only one part of China’s terrible transplant secret. Reputable international investigators have gathered evidence that Chinese prisoners of conscience, mainly Falun Gong practitioners, Uyghurs, house Christians and Tibetans, are murdered for their organs. Falun Gong practitioners, who make up the bulk of the millions of Chinese citizens in “re-education through labour (laojiao)” camps, are subject to medical tests to examine the health of their transplantable organs. This process creates a living organ bank where foreign patients and wealthy Chinese citizens can be matched to potential donors, who are then killed on demand so that their organs can be transplanted. This reverse matching process guarantees a suitable organ within a very short waiting period.

    – Journal of medical Ethics.
    https://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2016/05/09/chinas-terrible-transplant-secret/

  38. Arky

    I love China language and culture, and her people.
    I do not want to bring out these things on this blog.
    But the blockheaded stupidity and refusal of some here to face up to what it is makes it so.
    I hope people do not think these things reflect the average Chinese person. They do not.

  39. Is it still free trade if we abolish tariffs and the other country applies tariffs to our products?

    We still benefit, and in the most significant manner.

    The benefits of liberalisation for Australia come largely from internal productivity gains.

    We have nothing to gain in net terms from countervailing tariffs.

  40. Arky

    He asked if it was still free trade.

  41. jupes

    We still benefit, and in the most significant manner.

    So you agree it’s NOT free trade. Good.

    “We” is not everyone. There are losers when another country can flood the country with cheap goods while imposing barriers to Australian goods. You need to acknowledge the bleeding obvious.

  42. Stimpson J. Cat

    Maybe you don’t care because you are a foreigner.

    I think this line really shows your true colors Dot.
    Very clearly.
    For everyone to see.

  43. JC

    Arky
    #3188686, posted on October 19, 2019 at 9:37 pm
    I love China language and culture, and her people.
    I do not want to bring out these things on this blog.
    But the blockheaded stupidity and refusal of some here to face up to what it is makes it so.
    I hope people do not think these things reflect the average Chinese person. They do not.

    I think the average Chinese doesn’t give a shit about the regime and just get along with their lives as best they can. There maybe residual empathy for the government because most people think it was this regime that got them out of the depths of disparity only 30 years ago. But even after all this, they’re well aware of it’s repressive nature.

    The treatment of minorities has serious cause for concern though.

    However, let’s not be too “fragile” about the treatment of Chinese minorities at the Cat. More than a few here wouldn’t have an issue with their treatment because of their religious background.

  44. JC

    We” is not everyone. There are losers when another country can flood the country with cheap goods while imposing barriers to Australian goods. You need to acknowledge the bleeding obvious.

    That has almost zero effect on Australia as the stuff we sell to them has close to zero constraints. We export commodities and import high tech goods. But let’s not under emphasize the commodity exports. Mining is VERY high tech and extremely capital intensive, which is one of the hallmarks of high tech. Even our rural exports are very high tech in the way they are produced and then sent on. People should not underestimate this accomplishment.

  45. Arky

    However, let’s not be too “fragile” about the treatment of Chinese minorities at the Cat.

    ..
    It is an indication of the nature of the beast you are dealing with though, JC.
    ..

    More than a few here wouldn’t have an issue with their treatment because of their religious background.

    ..
    Yep. maybe right for the wrong reasons.
    A failed China might be much worse for us than a successful one. It isn’t a good or easy problem this one.
    It isn’t a purely economic one either.

  46. There are losers when another country can flood the country with cheap goods while imposing barriers to Australian goods. You need to acknowledge the bleeding obvious.

    No, this is not true at all. Nor have you thought about who the losers are.

    This is contrary to the empirical data and theory.

    You cannot dump continuously. No one does it. No one can do it.

    If the trade is in horizontal industries (say cars between the US and Japan), the US government might subsidise production of US made cars, which get “dumped” in Japan and they end up paying for Japanese consumers owning cars.

    How could you see this as a loss? The Japanese industry might suffer but the US taxpayers pay for Japanese taxpayers/consumers cars. The country doing the dumping is paying!

    This sort of thing is severely limited as producers produce in both nations to arbitrage foreign exchange.

    It is unlikely to happen at all in vertically integrated trade. The same firms own the supply chain. Whatever transfer pricing they use does not effect the final margins they make. If you are losing to other affiliates, it is probably because your trade barriers are higher.

    Since Chinese and Australian trade is in dissimilar products, if they dump at all, it is to our benefit and they cannot depress local industry in a significant manner.

    90% of the benefits of trade liberalisation in Australia come from dynamic, internal productivity gains. This is by virtue of being a small economy with a large export base. A lot of what is exported is funded by FDI from elsewhere (Peabody Coal [NYSE: BTU], for example).

    Then there are local exporters like Autoliv (Swedish owned) who import unfinished goods from overseas, then export finished goods.

  47. JC

    Arky

    A disturbing number of people posting at the Cat would do eggsactly to Mus lems what the Chinese are doing.
    It’s not to suggest you’re in this group. Let’s not sugar coat where some people are on this very subject.

    It just happens they oppose this because it’s China.

    For this alone China should be slammed with sanctions but they’re getting to be 20% of the world economy and therefore very hard to do in a short period of time. Power politics can’t really be ignored.

  48. Arky

    Since Chinese and Australian trade is in dissimilar products, if they dump at all, it is to our benefit and they cannot depress local industry in a significant manner.

    ..
    I can go into any agricultural or engineering supply shop and see products made in China that I used to help make.
    They weren’t just made by us, they were designed by us.
    I know where the blueprints were drawn. Not only did the making of the product go to China, but the blueprints and tooling went too.
    That is relatively low tech mechanical stuff from forty years ago.
    Imagine the wholesale transfer of technologies since then.
    To a place that executes dissidents.
    Insanity.
    Wholesale, global insanity.

  49. Your wages and productivity went up too.

    Would you like to be paid the same as the Chinese Arky?

    Imagine the wholesale transfer of technologies since then.

    Imagine if America extended IP rights to roughly four times their original terms because Disney “lobbied” (corrupted) a one time pop singer and amateur skier.

    China is straight up stealing sometimes, but America does not come into this with clean hands.

  50. JC

    Copyright has 100 year lifespan in the US. Patents less, but you can obtain a patent if you sneeze in a particular way. Legal firms in America actually specialize in combing through patents to extract money when there exists zero economic benefit. It’s parasitical behavior.

  51. Arky

    It just happens they oppose this because it’s China.

    ..
    No, I think people are fed up with the whole thing.
    These economic arguments don’t hold with the ordinary man anymore.
    They see endless middle east wars, they see oxy and other synthetic drugs flooding into previously middle class towns from Chinese factories, they see the attacks on Trump from FBI and democrats, they see Biden walking out of China with 1.5 Billion, nominally in the name of his son, but they know what it is for. They see a referendum held in Britain to leave the EU frustrated by career politicians. They see the cheap shitty apartments thrown up in their cities and they see the universities flooded with overseas students while their children can’t even get an apprenticeship.
    Come the next big recession, this stuff will explode.
    The socialists who take control after that will care not one whit for libertarian ideology.

  52. Arky

    China is straight up stealing sometimes, but America does not come into this with clean hands.

    ..
    This was the pertinent part of my comment:

    To a place that executes dissidents.

    ..
    And it just rolled straight off your brain, and you went right back to the economic argument.
    That is a problem.

  53. Come the next big recession, this stuff will explode.

    This after you made a joke about throwing 250,000 miners out of work.

    The socialists who take control after that will care not one whit for libertarian ideology.

    Then why are you so flippant, and demanding higher taxes (tariffs)?

  54. Arky

    I want lower taxes.
    You know that. Stop lying and equating tariffs with the overall tax burden.

  55. Arky

    Particularly specific tariffs to deal with one and only one particular problem.

  56. Arky

    And Trump agrees with me, not you.
    I trust Trump over you any day of the week, and twice on Friday.

  57. And it just rolled straight off your brain, and you went right back to the economic argument.
    That is a problem.

    …and YOU just made a comment about technology transfer.

    IF YOU WANT TO EMPHASISE SOMETHING, MAYBE CAPS OR BOLDING?

    To a place that executes dissidents.

    THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT, PRINCESS MOONBEAM.

    Are you going to invade?

    They’d nuke.

    Are you going to sell them shit?

    They don’t care.

    Are you NOT going to sell them shit?

    They don’t care.

    Increasing taxes on the poorest Australians (as tariffs are typically inequitable) will not do a damned thing to dislodge the awful, awful CCP from power.

  58. Arky

    He is really very, very good.

  59. Stimpson J. Cat

    To a place that executes dissidents.
    And it just rolled straight off your brain, and you went right back to the economic argument.
    That is a problem.

    This is because to Dot, the Chinese all look the same.
    And when I say look the same,
    I mean they all look like economic units.

  60. Arky

    They don’t care.

    ..
    For a regime that doesn’t care, they go to an awful lot of trouble to influence what happens.
    1.5 billion to Biden’s son.

  61. Trump is trying to get a deal over technology transfer, not human rights.

  62. Arky

    You happy your vote elects someone in Australia, and then some Chicom stooge hands then bags of cash?
    But you know, they don’t really care what we think or do, right?

  63. Arky

    1.5 billion to Biden’s son.

  64. Stimpson J. Cat
    #3188743, posted on October 19, 2019 at 10:36 pm

    To a place that executes dissidents.
    And it just rolled straight off your brain, and you went right back to the economic argument.
    That is a problem.

    This is because to Dot, the Chinese all look the same.
    And when I say look the same,
    I mean they all look like economic units.

    Like I said, Trump wants IP issues sorted, not human rights abuses.

  65. JC

    For a regime that doesn’t care, they go to an awful lot of trouble to influence what happens.
    1.5 billion to Biden’s son.

    Power politics. Can’t be ignored. That’s why they pay Keating 100 k a year. 🙂

  66. Arky
    #3188746, posted on October 19, 2019 at 10:38 pm

    You happy your vote elects someone in Australia, and then some Chicom stooge hands then bags of cash?
    But you know, they don’t really care what we think or do, right?

    I don’t vote for CCP sympathisers.

    You are conflating meddling in our politics with the inability of our trade policies to convince them to stop human rights abuses.

    They’ll meddle regardless, they want to be a great power.

    If we sell them stuff or not, or tax ourselves or not, they’ll keep on oppressing their own.

  67. Arky

    I don’t vote for CCP sympathisers.

    ..
    That is why I phrased it as your vote, as in your preference flow.
    All you have done tonight is talk shit and put both of us on a list in Beijing.
    Thanks for endangering me, yourself and my family you complete c*nt.

  68. Delcon

    I wonder, had Menzies not outlawed the Communist Party in Australia, would it have still been so tricky so spot the Commies and their sympathisers in our Parliament.
    We all know about the Greenies.
    Many of us know about Labor.
    Increasingly, stuff emerges now about the Liberals. Exhibit A: Gladys Liu.
    Now, exhibit B: Julie Bishop promoting China’s Belt and Road.

  69. A lot of women are inherently socialist and anyone who runs for public office is suspect.

  70. Fisky

    You can’t be fucking serious. The VC is going to turn up at school drinks on friday with Chinese minders and put salt in their beer?

    You’re an autist, dotty. You have no idea how human organisations work. That’s your problem.

  71. Really?

    “Made to feel uncomfortable”

    This is spastic woke leftist screeching.

  72. Crossie

    C.L.
    #3188034, posted on October 19, 2019 at 11:36 am
    Dot, isn’t here an argument for tariffs when it comes to technical industries?

    Why just technical industries? Aren’t all industries and jobs contributing to the GDP?

  73. Crossie

    Arky
    #3188288, posted on October 19, 2019 at 3:08 pm
    It is like Brexit.
    Most people no longer believe that being part of a trading bloc run by totalitarians is of personal benefit. But more importantly they can smell where it is all going and are prepared for it to even cost them more to get out from under.
    Make all the economic arguments you like.
    Free people don’t like these large blocs that won’t let them go.
    Whether it is the USSR, the EU, or the China bloc.
    People aren’t buying your shit anymore.
    We see what they are, and the types who apologise for them.

    Well said.

  74. Crossie

    Fisky
    #3188294, posted on October 19, 2019 at 3:15 pm
    I do not think there was stop of trade between English and Germans until war started 03/09/1939

    Britain had very high tariffs on countries not part of their Empire, dufus.

    And when they joined the post WWII Germans in the EU we lost a lot of export business to UK. Not exactly a plus, was it?

  75. Iampeter

    Anyway.
    Keep supporting China.

    No one is supporting China. Well, except for clueless leftists like Fisky, Arky and any others who reject, or don’t even know about individual rights and therefore reject capitalism.
    What’s being opposed is the imposition of new taxes that will hurt Western countries, by idiots in the West, who don’t know what a “tariff” is or how it works, so they think they’re hurting China.

    We” is not everyone. There are losers when another country can flood the country with cheap goods while imposing barriers to Australian goods. You need to acknowledge the bleeding obvious.

    Those losers will all be in the country imposing the barriers while providing us cheap goods. You really need to learn how economics works.

  76. Iampeter

    So anyway, from now on every time there is a material crackdown on free speech by the CCP, guess who gets dragged over here to explain why they fully support the CCP. That’s right dotty!

    You don’t know what “free speech” even means and while you’re not wrong re CCP being a threat to it, your opposition to it makes no sense given your stated political beliefs are as authoritarian as anyone in China.

  77. Crossie
    #3188827, posted on October 20, 2019 at 7:10 am

    C.L.
    #3188034, posted on October 19, 2019 at 11:36 am
    Dot, isn’t here an argument for tariffs when it comes to technical industries?

    Why just technical industries? Aren’t all industries and jobs contributing to the GDP?

    The argument for tariffs is Keynesianism.

    Do you think Rudd’s stimulus worked?

  78. Crossie

    jupes
    #3188592, posted on October 19, 2019 at 8:25 pm
    No they’re not. We’ve got corrupt MPs and one whinging Chinese consul.

    Yeah. Plenty of them but not one of them has been charged. We have a state government signing up to “Belt and Road”. We have university departments bought and paid for by the Chicoms. We have university professors helping them develop military technology. We have ex-Prime Ministers shilling for the Chicoms. We have a major political party advocating defence cooperation. We have sold Darwin Port to the evil fucks and we have imported a million of them to live here.

    What could possibly go wrong?

    Perfect storm which is already here. China has nowhere to go but to annihilate Hong Kong and when they do the world will recoil in horror. End of China.

    Furthermore, China is not indispensable because they invent nothing, they steal all intellectual property. Goods can be manufactured anywhere and will be in the near future.

  79. Crossie

    Do you think Rudd’s stimulus worked?

    Of course it did, for the Chinese.

  80. RobK

    China is not indispensable because they invent nothing, they steal all intellectual property.
    Once perhaps. Only a fool would underestimate her capability today.

  81. Crossie

    RobK
    #3188861, posted on October 20, 2019 at 8:04 am
    China is not indispensable because they invent nothing, they steal all intellectual property.
    Once perhaps. Only a fool would underestimate her capability today.

    What new technology have they come up with? Medicine? Theories about anything?

    For example since the garment industry has been handed over to them there has not been any innovation in fabrics.

  82. Iampeter

    Furthermore, China is not indispensable because they invent nothing, they steal all intellectual property. Goods can be manufactured anywhere and will be in the near future.

    You can manufacture outside of China but the cost of the goods you produce will mean no one will buy them.
    In any case, even if not for the regulatory and tax burden forcing manufacturers into China today, more and more manufacturing will still eventually be outsourced to developing countries for comparative advantage. That’s a good thing and a sign of increasing prosperity.
    In the meantime, China is going to go back to the good ol’ days of poverty given the collectivist policies of Xi and we should continue consuming their cheap goods in exchange for our overvalued currencies to help them along the way quicker.

  83. RobK

    Crossie,
    In many fields of advanced technology China is right up there with the best. 5G, swarm technology, batteries, exotic magnets, the list is long. Much of the cutting edge stuff is not yet main stream but dont be deceived into thinking they are in anyway backwards. On top of that they have an unequalled capacity for production in practically every field .

  84. Crossie

    RobK
    #3188897, posted on October 20, 2019 at 8:35 am
    Crossie,
    In many fields of advanced technology China is right up there with the best. 5G, swarm technology, batteries, exotic magnets, the list is long. Much of the cutting edge stuff is not yet main stream but dont be deceived into thinking they are in anyway backwards. On top of that they have an unequalled capacity for production in practically every field .

    So why then do they need to send their best and brightest students to American and Australian universities?

  85. RobK

    So why then do they need to send their best and brightest students to American and Australian universities?
    Shear weight of numbers, Crossie. China has more PhD graduates in a year than we have undergraduate students. It’s a big country, it’s a big economy and it’s not yet fully developed in its potential. It is maximising its comparitive advantage, we are squandering ours.

  86. Tel

    So why then do they need to send their best and brightest students to American and Australian universities?

    Because Chairman Mao murdered people for wearing glasses, for reading books, for playing a musical instrument, or any other thing that made them remotely intellectual. Mao’s great contribution to human knowledge was telling a billion people to go whack sparrows with sticks.

    A nation does not recover from that erasure in one generation … might take a while.

    5G, swarm technology, batteries, exotic magnets, the list is long.

    Every one of those invented outside China and then copied, even the “5G” which is not a technology but a marketing term. I don’t begrudge people copying, it’s a natural human instinct to do so, but going from a follower to a leader is not easy.

    On top of that they have an unequalled capacity for production in practically every field.

    They have a lot of people, and a high level of obedience which lets them produce big things quickly (using copied technology). Western countries would have plenty of surplus capacity if we stopped hang wringing over silly things like Global Warming, but it’s a bit of a question as to what we might put that surplus capacity towards.

    Consider the idea that keeps coming up of high speed train from Sydney to Canberra. We could build it but who would use it? Politicians could make themselves luxury carriages I suppose, but why get involved in big national pissing contests? Let the Chinese build big things if that’s what they want to do.

  87. RobK

    A nation does not recover from that erasure in one generation … might take a while.

    That’s true. They are working on it.
    I’m not suggesting China is superior, just that it’s not incapable, not to be under-rated.

  88. Tel

    For example since the garment industry has been handed over to them there has not been any innovation in fabrics.

    There’s been a huge jump in microfiber applications. Although originally invented in Japan, it was slow to find interest in the clothing industry but turned up as microfiber cleaning cloths. More recently it has been getting into a lot of clothing, and it’s probably only been in the past 10 years or so that synthetic microfiber T-Shirts have been more pleasant to wear than natural cotton. We could argue over details, but a lot of that has been driven by the Americans and the Japanese and trying to find alternatives to cotton.

    Also bamboo fibers are getting popular. There are two forms, the older is chemically extracted cellulose using bamboo as a source (mostly the leaves which are otherwise waste material) and then spun into Rayon. This was invented in China … but only in as much as they took existing production of Rayon and grabbed a local material as a source of cellulose. In the USA you can’t call this “bamboo fiber” you must call it Rayon.

    The other more interesting form of bamboo fiber is based on “microbial retting” or using bacteria to partially digest the bamboo (a.k.a. letting it rot) and leave behind natural fibers which are spun using similar techniques to the way cotton is handled. My understanding is that this product is mostly coming from Bangladesh but the Chinese are at least partly involved in that one. As any cheese maker can tell you, the management of bacterial decomposition is trickier than it looks. You need tight control over which organism turns up on the day … because a fungus, for example, can rapidly break down the fiber that is your end product.

    So yes there’s been significant innovation … with a little bit of that coming out of China.

  89. Arky

    It’s a big country, it’s a big economy and it’s not yet fully developed in its potential. It is maximising its comparitive advantage, we are squandering ours.

    ..
    I don’t think some people get the actual size difference.
    Nearly 1.4 billion people.
    It is all of Europe + USA + Canada + England + Australia.
    And it isn’t anywhere near fully saturated with modern technology yet.
    Once it is, say goodbye to any advantage you thought you had.

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