Unless, of course, they want a free sex-change operation

Australia’s most decorated soldier Ben Roberts-Smith tells potential recruits NOT to join the armed forces.

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83 Responses to Unless, of course, they want a free sex-change operation

  1. This is what we’ve come to. Seems only a matter of minutes. Depressing.

  2. FelixKruell

    “Most decorated” soldier – sure. Might have been worth mentioning that he also happens to have been accused of war crimes plus a bunch of domestic stuff…

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    I have no addiction for the Daily Mail, so unfortunately no idea what he said. But at least I could read it here: https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/australias-most-decorated-soldier-ben-roberts-smith-tells-potential-recruits-not-to-join-the-armed-forces-as-the-war-hero-calls-for-the-militarys-top-brass-to-be-sacked/ar-BBWL0lg.

    What he said is not new, it’s been going on for decades, the Defence Department and Veteran’s Affairs will fight tooth and nail against even the most minor of claims, as if the money was coming out of the employees own pay packets. I have first hand experience.

  4. jupes

    Might have been worth mentioning that he also happens to have been accused of war crimes …

    Indeed. That is where ADF leadership has really lost the plot.

  5. jupes

    What he said is not new, it’s been going on for decades, the Defence Department and Veteran’s Affairs will fight tooth and nail against even the most minor of claims, as if the money was coming out of the employees own pay packets.

    Well sure, they are bureaucracies so they behave in a typical bureaucratic manner, however they do have a duty to the taxpayer as well.

    The far bigger problem as I see it, is that the ADF no longer produces warriors, rather they produce civilians in uniform. There is more psychological support available now both in the service and post service, yet PTSD and veteran suicide are at crisis levels.

  6. Roger

    The former soldier believes the heads of the Australian Defence Force are putting themselves ahead of servicemen and not providing the assistance that veterans need.

    ADF heads are not just letting veterans down, they’re letting the country down.

    There are qualified riflemen in the reserves who would like to go full time but aren’t being admitted because they’re not female or indigenous.

  7. Iampeter

    He’s right that people shouldn’t be joining the armed forces today but I don’t think he gets to the real reason for it.
    The real reason is that we don’t know how to fight and win wars. We’re so consumed by altruism that we have more care for enemy civilians than our own soldiers and it’s for THIS reason that our top brass should be sacked.

  8. candy

    Is it really that dangerous being in the Forces these days and how many people pay the “ultimate price”?

    There are tremendous career opportunities in the Forces for young people starting out, as well now Veterans have a new card that entitles them to cheaper groceries, holidays, health care, some 500 major retailers involved.
    Plus sex change operations. Really the Forces is a different kettle of fish these days. It’s a very good employer, as their ads indicate. Not so much about serving. I mean, where are the wars?

    Roberts-Smith is an exceptional solider though, SAS. A fine man.

  9. Publius

    I like the cut of his jib. Exactly the right response to ADF madness. Starve the beast.

  10. Tim Neilson

    Iampeter
    #3212385, posted on November 15, 2019 at 11:17 am

    I don’t think you ever quite got round to explaining how your value judgements on “altruism” apply to volunteer surf lifesaving.

    Please feel free to answer that question here – it’s not really O/T since it will illuminate exactly what your strictures against the upper echelons of the military are.

  11. C.L.

    Is it really that dangerous being in the Forces these days and how many people pay the “ultimate price”?

    When off-base, ADF chiefs pay the ultimate price for bread and milk.

  12. Roger

    I mean, where are the wars?

    Just over the horizon.

  13. RobK

    I would proudly stand by BRS any time.

  14. Old School Conservative

    There is more psychological support available now both in the service and post service

    Not according to several people calling the Alan Jones show and other 2GB presenters.

  15. Tom

    Iampeter
    #3212385, posted on November 15, 2019 at 11:17 am

    Excellent post!

  16. Roger

    There is more psychological support available now both in the service and post service

    Not according to several people calling the Alan Jones show and other 2GB presenters.

    It’s true that every soldier who is deployed receives a DVA white card entitling them to psychological treatment if necessary, but the complaints seem to go to the way the army treats veterans rather than external agencies.

  17. Rococo Liberal

    I would just like to point out that the Commando Welfare Trust has been established to look after a lot of the things Roberts-Smith is talking about.

    https://www.commandotrust.com/

    So don’t just whinge about the ADF, people, get your wallets out and give the Trust a donation.

  18. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    So don’t just whinge about the ADF, people, get your wallets out and give the Trust a donation.

    The Special Air Service Regiment has a similar trust.

  19. Bear Necessities

    “Most decorated” soldier – sure. Might have been worth mentioning that he also happens to have been accused of war crimes plus a bunch of domestic stuff…

    Yes accused is the word.

    It is the REO Speedwagon standard of evidence:

    “I heard it from friend who…
    heard it from a friend who…
    heard from a friend that……”

  20. FelixKruell

    Bear:

    Yes accused is the word.

    Yep. But given the accusations are being investigated by the AFP at the moment, maybe not quite as remote an accusation as you seem to think.

    The domestic violence accusations were also investigated, but not pursued.

  21. Disgusting smears once again. Accusations and even dead end allegations as evidence.

  22. miltonf

    ADF is just the latest skittle to fall during the long march through the institutions. Doesn’t matter who is in ‘government’, the deep state does what it likes. Are the dunnies in the PMs department still transexual friendly?

  23. Rossini

    Rococo Liberal
    #3212423, posted on November 15, 2019 at 12:10 pm
    Done just that!

  24. Pete of Perth

    It took more than 20 years for DVA to recognise that Dad’s declining health and death (2013) was primarily caused by his active service in SEA during the 60s to 72. He retired from the navy in 87. This year, Mum is now on a war widow’s pension. Mainly thanks to advocacy from a former sailor who served with Dad in the gun turrets. Many thanks to that man who lives near Brisbane. Dad loved being in the Navy. He believed he retired at the right time before the onslaught of imposed PC.

  25. Rex Mango

    Good to see him speaking up. Could imagine the only place worse to sign up right now would be the NT Police Force.

  26. Mother Lode

    Felix seems to have a reflexive blind faith in institutions.

    Cardinal Pell’s conviction seemed credible to him because it was a court. He even argued that Pell had not insisted on his innocence (or words to that effect) which suggested that he was wary of being caught out.

    Now he uses the fact the ADF brass are investigating Roberts-Smith as undermining his credibility.

    A bunch of shiny bums who are taking the word of enemy to rake an Australian war-hero over the coals. There are no end of Australians who were there saying it is not true, and some inbred goat herders among whom the enemy take refuge claiming otherwise. The ADF brass loves showing their wokedom and expect us to think them brave in their way because they don’t side with their own troops – but then they aren’t actually on the same side.

    Institutions are staffed by humans. The quality of the humans is the quality of the institutions.

    Cross dressers and perfumed quotas whose combat experience if from the Operation Bain Marie are investigating Roberts-Smith.

    Sweet cheeses.

  27. Chris M

    It’s so very noble to defend one’s country. But seems counter intuitive being sent to some war zone overseas while the government mandates wide open gates at home and won’t even name the opponents ideology.

    We have met the enemy and he is among us.

  28. Tintarella di Luna

    Rococo Liberal
    #3212423, posted on November 15, 2019 at 12:10 pm

    Thank you for that didn’t know about it

  29. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    It’s so very noble to defend one’s country. But seems counter intuitive being sent to some war zone overseas while the government mandates wide open gates at home and won’t even name the opponents ideology.

    The irony of that has not escaped me, indeed.

  30. max

    The historian Charles Beard warned that becoming the world policeman would mean “perpetual war for perpetual peace”

    We need to understand the “total” costs of war in order to appreciate the true dangers that war in general, and the New World Order in particular, pose to individual liberty.

    The nature of perpetual war has given rise to the sheer size and power of The Deep State, its control over nearly every aspect of our lives, and to near-totalitarian power.

  31. jupes

    The real reason is that we don’t know how to fight and win wars. We’re so consumed by altruism that we have more care for enemy civilians than our own soldiers and it’s for THIS reason that our top brass should be sacked.

    FMD! Well done Pete. Hit the nail on the head.

    He’s right that people shouldn’t be joining the armed forces today but I don’t think he gets to the real reason for it.

    I would think he does get it, but is constrained by his media position and personal circumstances. He is doing the honourable thing looking after his fellow ex-diggers but he is attacking the same pricks who have been attacking him.

  32. jupes

    It is also unclear exactly what Roberts-Smith’s gripe is with the ADF leadership. Once a digger discharges, he is no longer the responsibility of the army. That is why we have a Department of Veterans’ Affairs. The army is not the benevolent society.

    That being said, I understand that Roberts-Smith was not happy with the way he was discharged so maybe there is something there. However, the main fault of the top brass is their push to emasculate the army, leading to soldiers being mentally unprepared for war and then their disgraceful efforts to prosecute soldiers for trivial or imagined crimes once they return from deployment.

  33. Cui Bono

    Hey…the ADF leadership are just following orders. Why expect them to stand on principle?

  34. Tim Neilson

    jupes
    #3212522, posted on November 15, 2019 at 2:18 pm

    Jupes, please don’t encourage him.

    He’s wrong anyway. It has nothing to do with “altruism”. It’s got everything to do with identity politics and anti-western ideology.

    Consider the ABC leaping all over that bogus story about RAN personnel allegedly burning illegal immigrants. A commitment to “altruism” wouldn’t result in that kind of treasonous propaganda. A commitment to sabotaging the west does.
    Our gutless craven timeserving politicians bureaucrats and top brass will throw any number of our front line personnel under the bus to try to appease the ABC, Fairfax et hoc generis if need be, to try to insulate themselves from a bad headline. They don’t do it to help others.

  35. RobK

    The domestic violence accusations were also investigated, but not pursued.
    Sometimes the damage is not on the outside.
    This is exactly his point.
    To hell and back in our service. We are in debt to them.

  36. jupes

    Well sure, they are bureaucracies so they behave in a typical bureaucratic manner, however they do have a duty to the taxpayer as well.

    I just read in the West Australian that DVA has spent $33 mil on legal costs including $7.2 mil on barristers to take on veterans since 2015. Now THAT is indeed shameful and failing severely in their duty to the taxpayer.

  37. jupes

    Why expect them to stand on principle?

    Because they should not follow orders that destroy the ADF’s ability to defend Australia.

  38. jupes

    He’s wrong anyway. It has nothing to do with “altruism”. It’s got everything to do with identity politics and anti-western ideology.

    No it is altruism when the top brass care more for the enemy than their own soldiers.

    Consider the ABC leaping all over that bogus story about RAN personnel allegedly burning illegal immigrants.

    That’s the ABC not the ADF. Sure they are both run by lefties and are united on most issues but not all.

  39. FelixKruell

    Mother:

    Felix seems to have a reflexive blind faith in institutions.

    Not a blind faith. But some faith.

    I don’t judge him guilty, I just note that his accusations have been investigated by the AFP for over a year now. In any article about him and his views on the ADF, you’d think that would worth mentioning…

  40. Tim Neilson

    No it is altruism when the top brass care more for the enemy than their own soldiers.

    I can understand that altruism means caring for other people.

    But when someone starts caring about one group to the proportional detriment of another group, that looks to me like identity politics, not altruism.

    I don’t want to argue with you about it because I get the general point you’re making, so disputing with you about definitional issues would be wasting your time.

    But please don’t encourage Iamashiteater to tug his peen about “altruism”. That’s really sending your fellow Cat commenters over the top and into the no-man’s land of Dunning-Kruger level gibberish.

  41. John A

    Oh, it’s about something else stupid.

    Here am I reading the headline and thinking Doomlord has discovered more craziness of Commisar Daniel in Victoriastan on the subject of conversion (therapy, that is).

    🙁

  42. Mother Lode

    Hi Felix,

    The credibility of the case against Ben Roberts-Smith is something that has long been discussed on this blog, as well as the ever proliferating damp political correctness and excursions into social justice of the ADF brass with respect to him and many others.

    The reason it was likely not included in the story is because the issue goes without saying. Not merely as an aside, but the conduct of the ADF but precisely because of the investigation into Roberts-Smith.

    I don’t think anyone needs to be told.

    But your comment read (intentionally or not) as a substantial reason to deem whatever Ben said as suspect.

    Add to this the fact that the points he is raising echo what has been observed in multiple other sources.

  43. FelixKruell

    Mother:

    The reason it was likely not included in the story is because the issue goes without saying. Not merely as an aside, but the conduct of the ADF but precisely because of the investigation into Roberts-Smith.

    I don’t think anyone needs to be told.

    That’s not how journalism is meant to work – you don’t assume knowledge of that kind of thing, that goes to the heart of the story. You mention it.

    But your comment read (intentionally or not) as a substantial reason to deem whatever Ben said as suspect.

    It should be suspect. Somehow being investigated for war crimes may have ulterior motives in making comments about the ADF. Doesn’t mean he’s wrong. But readers should be told that history.

    Add to this the fact that the points he is raising echo what has been observed in multiple other sources.

    Then mention those sources. No issue with that. But it would be like asking Pell for comment on jury trials versus judge trials in sexual assault cases, without mentioning his current circumstances.

  44. A Lurker

    “Most decorated” soldier – sure. Might have been worth mentioning that he also happens to have been accused of war crimes plus a bunch of domestic stuff…

    Felix, are you naturally obnoxious or did you have to put effort into it?

  45. Bronson

    Felix you seem to equate journalism with some kind of Utopian view of their righteousness regarding the search for truth justice and the …well you know. How naive are you journalism is how to grind an axe to the shape and size you want to beat your ideological opponent around the metaphorical head. This article is nothing more that a teaser to entice persons like your good self to indulge in idle speculation about a case they know nothing about to elicit further outrage when other salacious gossip is leaked to use the proles.

  46. Mother Lode

    That’s not how journalism is meant to work

    We are on a blog.

  47. Mother Lode

    Then mention those sources.

    Yes, I am going to go back and compile a compendium of all previous conversations on this blog on this topic with annotations and links.

    The pathology is not that I don’t feel I need to, but that you think it is required.

  48. Tel

    Bad for national defense … but I can’t help thinking that this situation was completely predictable … and I’m fairly sure many people (including on this site) did predict it.

    Blaming the grunt with a rifle in his hand makes the high brass feel better about their Far Cups.

  49. Cui Bono

    Was there ever an example of these fine honourable officers resigning in disgust at the encroachment of political correctness?
    No, didn’t think so.
    They’re on the taxpayer teat. And can always explain it away as ‘well the civilian power makes the policy’

  50. FelixKruell

    Bronson:

    Felix you seem to equate journalism with some kind of Utopian view of their righteousness regarding the search for truth justice and the …well you know.

    I certainly think they should aspire to that. Don’t you? The author felt it relevant to mention his medals, but not his alleged war crimes.

  51. FelixKruell

    Mother:

    We are on a blog.

    We are. But the blog linked to an article. By a journalist (admittedly a daily mail one, so my expectations are way too high). My comment related to the article.

  52. RobK

    Training is discipline and reflexes, yet it can be difficult to predict.
    My father was an elite soldier who last wore his uniform after service in Indonesia, around 1950 when he married.
    He was never violent to his family but i recall an incident that will stay with me forever.
    In the late 60s my mother bought a ceramic baking dish, mat green with a big button knob for a lid. All six of us were just seated when dad sprang to his feet, grabbed the baking dish from the side board as he spied it for the first time. He lunged with it over to a nearby window before coming to a holt. We all looked at him, what was that about. He said: sorry, for a moment it looked like an anti- tank mine. He was a bit quiet that mealtime.
    I miss him.

  53. Mother Lode

    We are. But the blog linked to an article.

    You think the issue here is critiquing a j’ismists?

    And what else are you saying? Don’t listen to this guy because he is under investigation? In that case shouldn’t it also be balanced by a citing the deficiencies of the ADF? Including their new habit of prosecuting their troops?

    You can’t quite root out your deference to institutions, can you. You need them to somehow, ultimately, be protecting you. How nice. How bovine.

    This country is beset by the politicisation of every arm of government. But you seem to feel that we should frame the discussion in the terms that the compromised government departments would have us.

    Well here you go. The ADF is investigating Roberts-Smith. This bolsters his point that the ADF is a political organisation that doesn’t care for the people who are prepared to risk their life for the country, so it also doesn’t serve the country.

    Among the dainty frocks worn by corpulent but confused sagging men in constant need of affirmation, and the coiffured dilettantes who love them the military livery but eschew the hardship and comradeship that anneals men into warriors and fretting instead about diversidee and partial pressures of CO2, which they don’t really understand, and tallies of penises to vaginas, these men are just unwashed, rough spoken brutish animals.

    I would take these rough men over the fops any day and not give it a second thought.

    The compassionate side of me hopes you are never put in a position where your life is weighed against column inches and admonishing letters from SJW’s in the Herald.

    The other 95% of me has different ideas.

  54. FelixKruell

    Mother:

    You think the issue here is critiquing a j’ismists?

    The blog post was literally just the link to the article. Why are you surprised that I commented on…the article?

    Well here you go. The ADF is investigating Roberts-Smith. This bolsters his point that the ADF is a political organisation that doesn’t care for the people who are prepared to risk their life for the country, so it also doesn’t serve the country.

    Hallelujah! See how easy it is to include relevant information? Yes, it bolsters his point. But it also causes a reader to question whether he is being impartial in his attack on the ADF.

    For the record, I give our soldiers a lot of slack, and don’t seek to impose my armchair view on the difficult decisions they have to make in war. But I expect someone to draw and hold the line when it comes to war crimes. The someone in this case is the institution ( the ADF or the AFP) you seem to have issues with. Not sure who else you suggest monitor these things instead?

  55. jupes

    But I expect someone to draw and hold the line when it comes to war crimes.

    It’s not that black and white.

    A few years ago, a Talib was killed in a SAS raid. The troops on the ground didn’t have the machine that records finger prints, so a digger cut the hands of the dead bloke and brought them back to base so he could be identified. That way they would know exactly who they had killed for intelligence reasons.

    Oh dear. Apparently using your initiative like that is a war crime i.e. mutilating a body. The big brains at the ADF Investigative Service and other assorted fuckwits investigated this incident for four years. Yes, FOUR YEARS. In the end they came to same conclusion that Blind Freddy had reached after about 10 seconds. There was no crime committed.

    The stupid Brereton inquiry currently into its fourth year of trying to railroad Roberts-Smith at the request of the ADF top brass is just more of the same shit.

  56. Tel

    But I expect someone to draw and hold the line when it comes to war crimes.

    What about leadership crimes which are a bit more subtle and not so easy to draw that line?

    Let’s say a bunch of guys are put into a situation, given a job they don’t actually have the capability of doing. Like one of those wishful thinking Nation Building™ programs where they keep shooting until they win some Hearts and Minds™ and create Democracy™ and all that … but reality turns out to be real after all and they can’t do the impossible so they fail at that, in some way.

    That’s their fault, right? I mean they failed, so it must be their fault.

    Can’t be the morons who sent them there … those dunderheads are beyond question.

  57. Mother Lode

    The blog post was literally just the link to the article. Why are you surprised that I commented on…the article?

    Yeah, you really don’t get it, huh? We can read any article by Roberts-Smith and know the background. You are still arguing that his point is vitiated by the styling of j’ismists and ADF formalities. These things are pettifogging nonsense that you think so important that an article that does not proclaim it is deficient.

    See how easy it is to include relevant information…

    Do you realise how far back you might trace ‘relevant’ information. Every assertion rests on earlier ones. Point is they cease to be relevant. You can’t distinguish it though, can you.

    And even now as you claim to nevertheless be concerned by the idea of war crimes, you are still doing so by crediting the as particularly more credible, the sickly carnal indulgences of the institution.

    You really cannot grasp the idea that Roberts-Smith can be trusted, and the ADF is the problem.

    I doubt there is a person alive who would wish for your support in any thing that they cared about.

  58. Mother Lode

    I doubt there is a person alive who would wish for your support in any thing that they cared about.

    More poignantly perhaps – you would throw any ally under a bus just so you could claim to be impartial.

  59. A few years ago, a Talib was killed in a SAS raid. The troops on the ground didn’t have the machine that records finger prints, so a digger cut the hands of the dead bloke and brought them back to base so he could be identified. That way they would know exactly who they had killed for intelligence reasons.

    Oh dear. Apparently using your initiative like that is a war crime i.e. mutilating a body. The big brains at the ADF Investigative Service and other assorted fuckwits investigated this incident for four years. Yes, FOUR YEARS. In the end they came to same conclusion that Blind Freddy had reached after about 10 seconds. There was no crime committed.

    Necessity is (still) a defence to anything but murder.

    Since it was not murder, it was lawful death in combat, then given the perilous situation of armed combat, then that’s not a war crime.

    Furthermore, under Federal law, how could they ever prove the fault element? There was no criminal intent and the troopers were acting morally to fulfill their duties.Even the physical element is arguably not what it may seem to be at face value.

    The post mortem amputation was done in furtherance of the enforcement of law and order.

  60. FelixKruell

    Mother:

    Yeah, you really don’t get it, huh? We can read any article by Roberts-Smith and know the background

    Just not this one. That was my point.

    Do you realise how far back you might trace ‘relevant’ information. Every assertion rests on earlier ones. Point is they cease to be relevant. You can’t distinguish it though, can you.

    Huh?

    You really cannot grasp the idea that Roberts-Smith can be trusted, and the ADF is the problem.

    What makes you think that? I haven’t made any call on whether he or the ADF can be trusted.

  61. FelixKruell

    Tel:

    What about leadership crimes which are a bit more subtle and not so easy to draw that line?

    Who guards the guardians has always been a problem. We have institutions to investigate those crimes too. If they’re not working, make that case.

  62. FelixKruell

    Jupes:

    Oh dear. Apparently using your initiative like that is a war crime i.e. mutilating a body. The big brains at the ADF Investigative Service and other assorted fuckwits investigated this incident for four years. Yes, FOUR YEARS. In the end they came to same conclusion that Blind Freddy had reached after about 10 seconds. There was no crime committed.

    Sounds like the ADF has some serious issues…(as well as being hideously inefficient and slow)

  63. jupes

    Necessity is (still) a defence to anything but murder.

    Since it was not murder, it was lawful death in combat, then given the perilous situation of armed combat, then that’s not a war crime.

    Furthermore, under Federal law, how could they ever prove the fault element? There was no criminal intent and the troopers were acting morally to fulfill their duties.Even the physical element is arguably not what it may seem to be at face value.

    The post mortem amputation was done in furtherance of the enforcement of law and order.

    Blah blah blah.

    Stop looking at combat from a legal perspective Dotty. That is what got us into this mess.

  64. Iampeter

    I can understand that altruism means caring for other people.

    But that’s not what altruism means. In any case, you can use whatever word you like, the point is our leadership will sacrifice our soldiers for the sake of the enemy. That’s the real issue. This is also why they engage in things like identity politics. Just another cause to sacrifice our soldiers instead of achieving victory and the safety of our soldiers. Self sacrifice is the ethical root of all leftist ideology.

    That’s really sending your fellow Cat commenters over the top and into the no-man’s land of Dunning-Kruger level gibberish.

    This already describes most Cat posters and certainly you as well.
    You’re just nutters LARPing political discussions and turning the Cat into Australia’s version of InfoWars.

  65. Iampeter

    But I expect someone to draw and hold the line when it comes to war crimes.

    Thinking in terms of “war crimes” is part of the problem.
    If someone engages in an act of war against your country, morality demands that your retribution has to be so total as to discourage them from ever trying something like that again.
    Whatever horror and death results from this is their responsibility for starting the conflict in the first place. So how could we have committed any war crimes?
    The issue is we don’t have clearly defined enemies and we don’t fight proper wars, so our soldiers are in place engaged in unclear, police-like actions, which are not the proper function of armies and soldiers. But I wouldn’t think of them in terms of war crimes. That’s not really a clear concept. That stems from the fact that you can’t really have international laws, the idea of which stems from the usual lack of understanding of what the purpose of laws are in the first place, which stems from a lack of understanding of more fundamental philosophical concepts and so forth. This is a waste of time to get into at the Cat, suffice to say that there’s really no such thing as “war crimes.” Just acts of war and righteous retaliation.

  66. Tim Neilson

    Iampeter
    #3212968, posted on November 16, 2019 at 5:52 am

    “Altruism” – regard for others as a principle of action (Oxford Dictionary)

    Was Quisling an “altruist” because he favoured the early 1940’s German government over his own people?
    The mere fact that our “elites” throw our troops under the bus doesn’t prove they’re altruists. They’re doing it in a stupid attempt to insulate themselves from criticism by ABC/Fairfax et hoc generis, who, again, aren’t motivated by concern for others but by hate and contempt for mainstream Australia.

    You still haven’t explained how your value judgements about altruism apply to volunteer surf lifesaving.

  67. Iampeter

    Altruism is the term coined by Auguste Comte to mean living for the sake of others. It doesn’t mean being benevolent or charitable, it means human sacrifice.

    In any case, you keep missing the actual point.
    You don’t have to use the word altruism if you don’t want to.

  68. Stop looking at combat from a legal perspective Dotty. That is what got us into this mess.

    Wrong.

    It means he walks.

    The ADF brass aren’t looking at this from a legal perspective, that’s the point.

    It’s a witch hunt.

    Those who you are blaming for this are whackos on a crusade to get scalps of good guys.

  69. Tim Neilson

    Altruism is the term coined by Auguste Comte to mean living for the sake of others. It doesn’t mean being benevolent or charitable, it means human sacrifice.

    Who to believe as to the meaning of a word in the English language – Iamashiteater or the Oxford Dictionary?
    Decisions, decisions.

    Here’s a thought – I might start to understand your analysis if you explained how your value judgements about altruism apply to volunteer surf lifesaving.

  70. stackja

    Why weren’t Army lawyers on the Kokoda Track to protect the Japanese?

  71. Iampeter

    Here’s a thought – I might start to understand your analysis if you explained how your value judgements about altruism apply to volunteer surf lifesaving.

    Sorry Tim, I can’t make heads or tails of your ravings and rantings. If there’s a point you’re trying to make why don’t you just make it?

    You’re always telling me how shit and stupid I am, why don’t you really impress me with your big brained genius?

  72. Tim Neilson

    Self sacrifice is the ethical root of all leftist ideology.

    Poor old Iamashiteater, once again displaying total ignorance of what’s really happening.

    The identity politics game being played by our elites comprises three groups (in the elite’s eyes, anyway):
    1. The elites – champions of all that’s true good and beautiful;
    2. Glamorous romanticised “minority groups”;
    3. The knuckle dragging swamp dwelling neanderthal mainstream Australians – who in the elite’s eyes include rank and file service personnel.

    To the elites, throwing rank and file service personnel under the bus proves how virtuous the elites are. There’s no “self” sacrifice about it, even through the collective prism of identity politics, because the elites don’t identify themselves with the rank and file. They’re sacrificing one “other” group, i.e. 3 above, to promote their own status among their fellows in group 1. The fact that they’re helping group 2, which they hate a lot less (and maybe don’t hate at all) to inflict serious damage on hated group 3 is a bonus.
    The wellbeing of group 2 is an irrelevancy. There’s never a word of complaint about the most hideous tortures inflicted by some group 2’s on others – because a purely intra-group 2 issue doesn’t give an opportunity to bastardise group 3.
    So no “altruism”on any definition of the term.

  73. Tim Neilson

    Iampeter
    #3213259, posted on November 16, 2019 at 12:59 pm

    Just tell me how your value judgements about altruism apply to volunteer surf lifesaving.

    Obviously you need assistance in thinking with any logic, so I’ll set out the propositions for you.

    As best I understand it, you consider that people shouldn’t act out of “altruism”.

    Volunteer surf lifesaving involves people sacrificing, at the least, a good deal of time,energy and effort – and in many cases risking and even losing their lives – for the purpose of rescuing others.

    So, as regards volunteer surf lifesaving, the possibilities as a matter of logic are:
    1. Volunteer surf lifesaving is not motivated by altruism (and if that’s your call, please explain why that is so);
    2. Volunteer surf lifesaving is motivated by altruism, so people shouldn’t do it;
    3. The proposition that people shouldn’t act out of “altruism” is erroneous – there are some cases in which acting out of altruism is a good thing.

    Feel free to explain why any of the above is incorrect.

  74. FelixKruell

    Iampeter:

    This is a waste of time to get into at the Cat, suffice to say that there’s really no such thing as “war crimes.” Just acts of war and righteous retaliation.

    Consider ‘war crimes’ my short hand for unacceptable conduct. In the case of the weird wars in the Middle East where we are acting more like policemen, that would be straying outside the rules of engagement we set ourselves. When that happens, I want someone to investigate and respond appropriately. Not just leave it up to the soldiers on the ground.

  75. Iampeter

    I’m still not sure what you want me to answer. Whether or not someone is being an altruist depends on why he is doing whatever it is he is doing. If you’re doing something because it’s in your interest to do so, as determined by your judgement, then it’s not altruism. This applies to lifeguards as much as it applies to accountants. Or mothers dying for their children, or soldiers throwing themselves on grenades to save their comrades.
    It would not be altruistic if done for the right reasons.
    But if you’re doing things for reasons other than your interests, like because your overbearing mother wanted you to be an accountant, or you believe saving lives at the beach is more important than something more productive you could be doing and you think being a good Christian means forgoing the former for the latter, then you are being altruistic/self-sacrificial.

    So it’s not a yes or no answer. It’s a “depends on the why and the context” answer.

    But why are you so hung-up on what word we use to describe self sacrifice? Seems to be a real sticking point.
    Also if you don’t drop the snide sneering, which given your total, embarrassing ignorance of all topics, you’re not in a position to engage in, I’m not going to bother responding anymore.

    I can only handle so much beclowment from Cat clowns.

  76. Tim Neilson

    If you’re doing something because it’s in your interest to do so, as determined by your judgement, then it’s not altruism. This applies to lifeguards as much as it applies to accountants. Or mothers dying for their children, or soldiers throwing themselves on grenades to save their comrades.

    How can you suggest that a mother dying for her child or a soldier dying for his comrades can possibly think it’s in their own interest? Unless they’re suicidal, I suppose.

    Similarly, you can’t seriously be suggesting that any surf lifesaver thinks it’s in his or her own interest to risk drowning in order to try to rescue someone else.

    You’re semantically disguising “in the child’s interest” or “in his comrades’ interest” as in the actor’s interest, unless the concept of “in your interest” just means whatever anyone’s got an impulse to do.

    But if someone’s got a motivation to please an overbearing mother, or whatever, or to do anything for someone else’s benefit out of any motivation at all, why is one impulse different than any other?

    Also how can you accuse a Christian believer of being “altruistic”? Christians believe that obeying God is the ultimate in self-interest. They WANT to obey God.

    To take another example, if we believe strongly that letting particular illegal immigrants into our country will be detrimental to us existing residents, then isn’t letting them in to respect their (supposed) “rights” altruistic? So shouldn’t we close the borders to prospective net recipients?

  77. Rockdoctor

    A few years ago, a Talib was killed in a SAS raid. The troops on the ground didn’t have the machine that records finger prints, so a digger cut the hands of the dead bloke and brought them back to base so he could be identified. That way they would know exactly who they had killed for intelligence reasons.

    A friend knows one of the guys involved in this. The story is: the Taliban were massing for another go and the SF boys had to go but couldn’t bring the body but needed to ID the guy they just eliminated. The guy that did it didn’t think anything of it and never realised it would become bigger than Ben Hur.

    Second point, the same friend was in Sorkh Morghab a couple of years before the Commando raid that ended up with the charges that were dropped. The locals he said hated us, some of his soldiers had rocks thrown by children at them as they knew they wouldn’t fire on kids chucking rocks. Pretty well much all their contacts came from that area. From what he heard the commando raid wasn’t criminal but was botched by an inexperienced team and should have never even gone past the investigation stage. However the ABC ran a big expose screaming war crimes even interviewing so called family members that turned out to be some others in the village because the remaining family couldn’t make it. Hmm riiigghhtt, no retraction or correction that I saw was made by the ABC but someone knee jerked & voila charges at a Defence Magistrate.

    Why do I bring these points up. I have never carried a weapon in a third word country, I have worked in third world countries and the experiences I have are similar to my friend when interacting with locals. Most live day to day, they will do anything to pay for the next meal or new clothes for their kids, they see us as rich. It is life outside our protected comfortable country that most of the world knows. These people are not bad per se just desperate. They will stretch the truth to get compensation and stretch it even further if the think they have an advantage, anyone who has haggled in Asia can relate. The piglet you just run over is always the prize pig and worth UDS$20 when you know it is the run of the mill piglet that can be bought for USD$2 at the markets. Hence the reason I always bring a healthy amount of skepticism to reports like this and why editors needs to snip more often. The rubbish our journalism schools are churning out certainly aren’t Carl Bernstein but a lot are running around with delusions of grandeur & the ADF is an easy target.

  78. Iampeter

    How can you suggest that a mother dying for her child or a soldier dying for his comrades can possibly think it’s in their own interest? Unless they’re suicidal, I suppose.

    Because people who have principles and take morality seriously will die for them given the right circumstance.

    Also how can you accuse a Christian believer of being “altruistic”? Christians believe that obeying God is the ultimate in self-interest. They WANT to obey God.

    You have to have rational reasons for wanting to do something. Religious reasons are NEVER a reason to do anything.
    Unless of course you want to evade actual morality and principles…

    Anyway what’s your point?

  79. Tim Neilson

    Because people who have principles and take morality seriously will die for them given the right circumstance.

    And that’s never “altruism” because…? The motivation for dying for one’s comrades in arms, or dying for one’s child, isn’t “altruism” but is “moral”?

    Someone doing something for the benefit of another that they don’t want to do, but they do because they believe it to be “moral” or “principled”, isn’t an “altruist” – then who is?

    You really are using mere verbiage to try (unsuccessfully) to disguise the utter invalidity of your position.

    Religious reasons are NEVER a reason to do anything.

    Oh no. You’re not going to try to resurrect your “existence exists” imbecility are you. Please tell me you’re not.
    The simple fact is that your attempted refutation of Christian belief has died of its own self beclownment many times on this blog. No-one claims that Christian belief can be proved to be true (and indeed claiming that would be contrary to the Bible), but the facile attempts of dogmatic atheists to prove it false are just an embarrassment to the concept of sentient life.
    A Christian who believes that doing something for others is in the Christian’s own interest may be mistaken, but they can’t be accused of “altruism” in your sense. (Except by you in your desperate flailing attempts to evade admitting the intellectual poverty of your assertions.)

    And why can’t we shut out illegal immigrants to avoid the taint of “altruism”?

  80. Iampeter

    Consider ‘war crimes’ my short hand for unacceptable conduct. In the case of the weird wars in the Middle East where we are acting more like policemen, that would be straying outside the rules of engagement we set ourselves. When that happens, I want someone to investigate and respond appropriately. Not just leave it up to the soldiers on the ground.

    Yep fair enough. This takes us back to the reason that no one should be joining our armed forces as they risk injury death and prosecution for being trained as soldiers but used incomprehensibly as policemen.
    I also wouldn’t support prosecuting any of our soldiers for any issues that arose as a result of putting them in such situations.
    I’d just oppose these kinds of engagements to begin with.

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