Their holy mission is to use the coercive power of the State

This has set the left ablaze: Attorney General William P. Barr Delivers the 19th Annual Barbara K. Olson Memorial Lecture at the Federalist Society’s 2019 National Lawyers Convention. It is almost impossible to have imagined more destructive despicable people than those who now inhabit the left. They want power only for themselves because they see only themselves as having virtue and good will. Everyone else is an enemy, and not just an enemy, but immoral as well. I must confess that I find everything about the modern left disgusting and immoral if it comes to that.

The closest I can come to understanding what they stand for is observing at close quarters our friends on the left. They are in a constant state of self-righteous fury. They are like old Testament prophets who rage against the evils of the world. It is a disposition that is inlaid, they are always on the lookout for some evil to correct. No lies or deceit, no amount of fake news, disturbs them. Nothing they aim to achieve will make this a better world, but only worse. These people are nutters but dangerous nutters for all that. There is no reasoning with such people. To those who lead them into such madness they are known in the trade as useful idiots. They are always the first to be disposed of comes the revolution.

Barr sets things out as I see them myself. Perfectly reasonable to me, but the left have gone mad with anger (their favourite mode of existence). See if you can identify what their problem is. Only an excerpt of a much longer speech of which this is a representative sample.

As I have said, the Framers fully expected intense pulling and hauling between the Congress and the President. Unfortunately, just in the past few years, we have seen these conflicts take on an entirely new character.

Immediately after President Trump won election, opponents inaugurated what they called “The Resistance,” and they rallied around an explicit strategy of using every tool and maneuver available to sabotage the functioning of his Administration. Now, “resistance” is the language used to describe insurgency against rule imposed by an occupying military power. It obviously connotes that the government is not legitimate. This is a very dangerous – indeed incendiary – notion to import into the politics of a democratic republic. What it means is that, instead of viewing themselves as the “loyal opposition,” as opposing parties have done in the past, they essentially see themselves as engaged in a war to cripple, by any means necessary, a duly elected government. . . .

The fact of the matter is that, in waging a scorched earth, no-holds-barred war of “Resistance” against this Administration, it is the Left that is engaged in the systematic shredding of norms and the undermining of the rule of law. This highlights a basic disadvantage that conservatives have always had in contesting the political issues of the day. It was adverted to by the old, curmudgeonly Federalist, Fisher Ames, in an essay during the early years of the Republic.

In any age, the so-called progressives treat politics as their religion. Their holy mission is to use the coercive power of the State to remake man and society in their own image, according to an abstract ideal of perfection. Whatever means they use are therefore justified because, by definition, they are a virtuous people pursing a deific end. They are willing to use any means necessary to gain momentary advantage in achieving their end, regardless of collateral consequences and the systemic implications. They never ask whether the actions they take could be justified as a general rule of conduct, equally applicable to all sides.

If political philosophy interests you, read the entire speech.

This entry was posted in Philosophy, Politics. Bookmark the permalink.

74 Responses to Their holy mission is to use the coercive power of the State

  1. Tom

    Absolutely nothing interests tribal leftards except having power over other people. Fascist totalitarianism is the wellspring of political correctness.

  2. Tel

    Their holy mission is to use the coercive power of the State to remake man and society in their own image, according to an abstract ideal of perfection.

    Except that their own image keeps changing, and any post-modernist can tell you that there IS NO abstract image of perfection because every culture creates it’s own norms. The leopard can’t change it’s spots … but the chameleon sure can!

    What makes great art? A golden dunny? Paint splattered on the wall? A plain woman with a half smile?

    No one knows what makes great art … but a heck of a lot of people will earnestly tell you they know a lot better than you do.

    I agree that the modern “Progressives” are all about power … you could say perhaps that all politics is about power including right-wing politics but there’s power with structure and principle … and then there’s personal power to be able to arbitrarily cast aside any principle at any time. The truth is we are ruled by men, and not by laws, and that’s always been the case. However, some men choose to rule themselves by methodology and by consistency, and when we have enough of these, structure and order emerges and we call that “rule of law” as a shorthand for people who have made agreements amongst themselves to stick with their principles. Sometimes we have leaders with an internal urge to dominate at all costs, to do “whatever it takes” … while other times we have leaders who do only the minimum they feel necessary then gracefully step aside. Both of these are rule by men … different kinds of men.

  3. Elderly White Man From Skipton

    The desperate Trumpet seems to not notice that the majority of people providing evidence of his attempt to use Ukraine’s Government as an agent of his 2020 campaign are either Republican or unaligned. Effectively, POTUS corruptly held USAid funds as a campaign finance bargaining chip. His own staff, Ambassador/donor, veteran and NSC office and a string of State Dept veterans on the record on this, unequivocally.
    We can only wonder what crimes are being committed that go unrecorded.

  4. Elderly White Man From Skipton
    #3217311, posted on November 21, 2019 at 9:07 am

    The desperate Trumpet seems to not notice that the majority of people providing evidence of his attempt to use Ukraine’s Government as an agent of his 2020 campaign are either Republican or unaligned.

    Whoa, big surprise there, champ.

    The Bidens are connected to a racketeering company in the Ukraine.

  5. Tom

    EWMFS, I know that, as a leftard, you can’t help yourself, so let’s just stick to the facts.

  6. C.L.

    Fantastic summary.
    And another by Ace of Spades editorist J.J. Sefton:

    Beyond the politics of all this is the fact that individuals like Vindman, Volker, Yovanovitch as well as the other names we’ve come to know and loathe like Page, Strzok, McCabe, Ohr and all the rest represent a cancer on the republic. Vindman’s actions and attitude underscore their belief that they control the direction of the nation, and not the people or the politicians they elect for a few years at a stretch. In the case of the State Department and the Intelligence Community, given all we have learned over the past three years and longer, America’s national security would not be affected negatively in any significant way if the CIA, NSA and the State Dept. were simply abolished. In fact, you could argue that it would improve. And what of all the other federal agencies and departments that control our lives and issue edicts and rules that have the full effect of law, despite the fact that none of the people issuing them have ever been elected and its damned near impossible to fire them? Collectively, they have the same damned attitude of Vindman. It’s a fatal conceit that is already having dire consequences on the body politic.

    I’ve been thinking the same thing for a long time.
    America has SEVENTEEN “intelligence agencies.”

  7. FelixKruell

    How studiously you’re ignoring the impeachment hearings of late Steve…I wonder why?

  8. C.L.

    The US networks have scaled back their impeachment coverage because nothing has happened and nobody is interested. As far as ambassadors go, Chris Stevens is unavilable for comment.

  9. stackja

    Skipton and Felix tag team for Dems.
    Deep State don’t like DT.
    I am shocked!

  10. Well over a year ago, maybe over years ago, I said that the US is potentially heading towards a civil war. The Left have never abandoned their roots, which brought about slavery and the first Civil War. It may not be quite like the first Civil War, but a civil war none the less.

    The elites of the Left constantly remind everyone as to how superior they are and have been inculcating a new form of slavery, that not only of the body but also of the mind. They have been very successful so far.

  11. struth

    The closest I can come to understanding what they stand for is observing at close quarters our friends on the left.

    These people are nutters but dangerous nutters for all that.

    Maybe you need some new friends.

    They are fighting a war against our civilisation, they started it, they own it.
    Having friends on the left might have been fine when many were still nationals and just confused idiots hating on the top end of town, but they have crossed a line.
    To still be friends with the enemies of your civilisation, validates them and they never suffer any consequences for their actions.
    Ditch them.
    You’re treating them with way more dignity than they deserve.
    Get new friends for the sake of your civilisation , and let them know why you have ditched them.
    Let them roll around in the shit that is their anger , delusion and depression.

  12. struth

    How studiously you’re ignoring the impeachment hearings of late Steve…I wonder why?

    Better than just swallowing MSM lies and edited media briefs by dems.
    You could end up looking like quite the knob.
    You owe me two XXXX slabs.

  13. Alan

    Tom’s link seems like a dead end, but was actually saved within the address:
    The Evidence That Joe Biden Committed Bribery

  14. Iampeter

    Their holy mission is to use the coercive power of the State

    Well, yea. That’s the ONLY thing you can with the State because it is nothing but coercive power.

    Political philosophy seeks to answer the question, to what end should the coercive power of the state be used?
    Those of us who are Right Wing, believe it should be used to protect individual rights.
    Those who are Left Wing, whether they be conservatives, or progressives, or anything in between, believe the function of government is to sacrifice individuals to a greater good. Things like the nation state, god, environment, etc.
    So you’ve taken a mundane fact for a post heading because you think it reveals some profound truth, but it just reveals the usual rock bottom level of discourse.

    As to the appalling speech by this AG, it was a hot mess to say the least. Veering from political illiteracy, like not knowing what rights are, through to bizarre conspiracy theories, like The Resistance!!111!1
    Not to mention the unintentionally hillarious partisanship given that conservatives and progressives are not fundamentally different movements. If you support Barr, or Trump, you are no different to someone who would support Bernie or Warren. You guys just disagree on technicalities. On the fundamental question of what the coercive power of the state should be used for, you are all in total agreement.

  15. Iampeter

    The desperate Trumpet seems to not notice that the majority of people providing evidence of his attempt to use Ukraine’s Government as an agent of his 2020 campaign are either Republican or unaligned.

    Or were Trump appointees.
    This is the same level of ignorance as when they failed to take note that the “Russian collusion” investigation was spearheaded by the Trump DoJ.

    The reality of the “Deep State” is that it only exists to the extent Trump has created it.

  16. Elderly White Man From Skipton

    Frank: just catching up are you?

    Others: Trump is a crook. This is not at all political. It’s simply a fact. Pompeo and Pence and Bolton will likely confirm what is already on the record.

  17. Roger

    American politics is passing strange.

    Joe Biden seeks a kid pro quo from the Ukrainian government using American tax payers’ money and yet remains the Democratic party’s preferred nomination in the primaries.

    Donald Trump refuses to seek a quid pro quo from the Ukrainian government and the Democrats seek to impeach him.

  18. FelixKruell

    Struth:

    Better than just swallowing MSM lies and edited media briefs by dems.

    Quite the contrary. The hearings give everyone a chance to see and read what the witnesses have to say, without any filters.

  19. The BigBlueCat

    Well, yea. That’s the ONLY thing you can with the State because it is nothing but coercive power.

    What did Lincoln say?

    and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth

    Governments do exist to coerce but that coercion should be to protect individuals rights, and not self-serving to the government. Pity the poor bugger who plows firebreaks on his own land to protect his own property during a fire season, only to be heavily fined by the government. Now that is a disgrace, immoral and not in the interests of that person’s property rights.

    The Democrats in the US have cast this aside – they see government as their own thing for power and not for the people. The US Constitution allows for the people to bear arms in order to fight an oppressive government – no wonder the Dems want to take guns away from people! But Deep State exists for both sides it would seem – plenty of evidence that the Dems are involved also (the current Shiff Show being a classic example).

    We should have a government that is only sufficient in size for the tasks our Australian Constitution provides. The government should work for us, not the other way around.

  20. Tom

    Thanks, Alan at 10.56am, for picking up the corrupt link to Manhattan Contrarian.

  21. JohnJJJ

    They are the modern Narodniks, city upper middle class who hate the people. As my mate, Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov, wrote “the Narodnik usually draws conclusions that point to some moral”.
    There is always a Lenin waiting in the background.

  22. Dr Fred Lenin

    John JJJ , you are right , I am here waiting in the wings ,ready to serve the people , quite a bit to the right of Granduncle Vladimir .

  23. struth

    The desperate Trumpet seems to not notice that the majority of people providing evidence of his attempt to use Ukraine’s Government as an agent of his 2020 campaign are either Republican or unaligned.

    The evidence please, as you then base all other assumptions as if there is any.

  24. thefrollickingmole

    CL

    I’ve been thinking the same thing for a long time.
    America has SEVENTEEN “intelligence agencies.”

    The book “legacy of ashes’ (even if it does deliberately overlook a couple of very good operations) is a great place to start if you want to educate someone on how stupid some of the intelligence work is.


    “Hey lets start a secret service organisation to do spy stuff”.

    “Who will we recruit”?
    “How about the blokes who were allied with our current enemies right up until they betrayed them
    “The ones who are dedicated to our overthrow and only making common cause until this little fracas is over”
    “Yes those ones, they are on our side now, and i can see no downside to allowing them in without background checks to carry out background checks on any future government employees’…..
    ….
    And thus the CIA/FBI was born.

  25. Elderly White Man From Skipton

    Struth: there is a thing called the internet. It has a thing called You tube. If you search impeachment, you can actually watch the evidence. You’re welcome.

  26. jupes

    The reality of the “Deep State” is that it only exists to the extent Trump has created it.

    Lol.

  27. jupes

    Joe Biden seeks a kid pro quo from the Ukrainian government using American tax payers’ money and yet remains the Democratic party’s preferred nomination in the primaries.

    In plain site. Bragging about it. On video. Worse, he withheld a billion dollars unless they stopped investigating his son’s company. He gave them six hours to do it and they complied.

    You can forget about such weird and wacky ‘crimes’ as ‘quid pro quo’. That is text book corruption. Trump was doing his duty to the American people to root out such abhorrent behaviour.

  28. Iampeter

    You can forget about such weird and wacky ‘crimes’ as ‘quid pro quo’. That is text book corruption. Trump was doing his duty to the American people to root out such abhorrent behaviour.

    By asking for a “favor” and creating his own shadow diplomacy channel with Ukraine via his private lawyer?

    Pretty sure that’s not the process a President follows if he wants to do his duty and end such abhorrent behavior.

  29. Alan

    Skipton 😀 That is funny. Now where have I heard that before?
    “You have to believe me because you can find it for yourself on the internet.”
    “The evidence please” – Oh the irony.

  30. Elderly White Man From Skipton

    Alan: you can see the actual evidence. It is that simple. Of course the Trumpets will demand that the only “evidence” would be if Trump himself said so. But I’m not sure even that would work unless he was in the same room, locking himself in a cell.

  31. struth

    Did you go look for the evidence on the internet Alan?
    I bet you didn’t.

    However, I have watched the proceedings on you tube.
    I did my homework, did you do yours?
    I have looked at the lack of evidence.
    There isn’t even a charge they can find.
    Trump has done nothing wrong, as a matter of fact, he has done what any decent person would expect him to do.
    He has worked within his rights and powers as a president with a country and president of that county that have a mutual obligation via a signed teaty to share information regarding corruption and criminal activity.
    Which BIDEN ADMITTED TO AND WAS FILMED DOING SO.
    Joe Biden, by openly bragging about his bribery and corruption forced the President to look into it.
    Decent republican voters are shittyy enough that Hillary isn’t behind bars with HUMA let alone letting someone off admitting his guilt in public.

    Other than that, most of it is bullshit unrelated to Trumpo.
    “How did you feel being sacked by Trump as Ambassador”?!!!!

    Or the classic “Heresay is better than evidence”

    This will come to nothing, and if the push too hard they’ll get a war, and they know it.
    They’re just used to having the media on their side, and too dumb to realise the ordinary folk are on the internet now and have tuned NBC off.
    The Dems have seriously not worked out the truth is getting out.
    That’s why they doctored the media releases.
    It’s embarrassing, it really is.
    Why would you do that in the age of the internet, unless you are a complete dunderhead.

  32. jupes

    By asking for a “favor” and creating his own shadow diplomacy channel with Ukraine via his private lawyer?

    “Asking for a favour?” Are you serious? Where’s the crime in that?

    Compare and contrast:

    In plain site. Bragging about it. On video. Worse, he withheld a billion dollars unless they stopped investigating his son’s company. He gave them six hours to do it and they complied.

    Try again fuckstick.

  33. struth

    Actually, I can now confidently say that this is now a Joy to behold.
    Trump has done it again.
    He plays these people for the fools they are.
    In getting Trump they expose their own criminals and criminality.
    It’s just so new to them, they have never had this before, and so are making huge fuckups .
    The deep state never had a light shine on them before.
    They’re insane with rage and not real bright at all.
    Now their unwarranted arrogance and hatred for the commoner sweats out of every pore and nothing can stop it.
    The hatred for people and their country is gob smacking.

  34. Colonel Crispin Berka

    It’s hard to take Dems’ outrage about the Ukraine Biden investigations seriously when they appear to be equally outraged at the size of Trump’s crib card handwriting.

    The evidence: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19393574/GettyImages_1188927586.jpg

    Some sample outrage: https://imgur.com/gallery/xR8TEAy

    Mind you, am a bit concerned he’d need reminders for so little information.

  35. FelixKruell

    Struth:

    He has worked within his rights and powers as a president with a country and president of that county that have a mutual obligation via a signed teaty to share information regarding corruption and criminal activity.

    And today’s testimony established that Trump had no interest in an actual investigation. Just that one is announced. Because this was about politics. Not corruption. Missed that bit on YouTube?

  36. cohenite

    Elderly White Man From Skipton
    #3217311, posted on November 21, 2019 at 9:07 am

    The trolls at this place are pathetic. All the people seeking to use the Ukraine for political and personal use were demorats; from the bidens, to the kerries and even peolosi, arguably the vilest woman in politics today, had relos on the payroll in Ukraine. There was a procession of demorat pollies going to the Ukraine demanding dirt on Trump.

    Speaking of trolls this bullshit:

    Well, yea. That’s the ONLY thing you can with the State because it is nothing but coercive power.

    Again this is bullshit although I concede most gov’t’s conform to it. The best gov’ts free up society, reducing bureaucratic interference and the various coloured tapes, to allow citizens to go about their business. Trump is the nearest thing we have to this ideal.

    Never Trumpers are pieces of shit.

  37. Elderly White Man From Skipton

    Struth: Trump is is deep trouble – because he tried corruptly to get a foreign government involved in his election and the evidence of that has been given in public. If Biden did as you say (I’ve not seen that evidence) then Trump’s DoJ is perfectly capable of indicting him. In fact they have the whip hand.

  38. jupes

    Can any of the stupid lefties on this thread explain that if they consider Trump’s “asking for advice” an impeachable offence, exactly how bad they consider Biden’s corruption to be?

    Death penalty?

  39. Tel

    Since this has become the Trump Impeachment thread … interesting conclusion here that the whole “whistleblower” complaint turns out to have been beyond the scope of the law that it was supposedly entered under (the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act of 1998).

    https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2019/11/httpsenwikipediaorgwikiintelligence_community_whistleblower_protection_act.html

    This law provides an intelligence official with a legal means within which to report misdeeds in the world of intelligence operation, funding, etc. It has nothing to do with government activities that are not intelligence activities. There was nothing in the now famous 25 July call between Trump and Zelensky that was intelligence business. None. Remember – the two presidents ARE NOT intelligence officials.

    IMO the complaint was and is invalid and should not have been entertained at all by the IC IG. The original opinion by DoJ on this matter was correct. pl

    The turcopolier is quite correct on this one. The whole impeachment is based on misuse of this “whistleblower” complaint …

  40. Tel

    … even if you accept that Eric Ciaramella is a genuine “whistleblower” and that’s a huge stretch in itself.

  41. Chris

    We can only wonder what crimes are being committed that go unrecorded.

    Indeed. Show me the man I will show you the crime.

  42. Iampeter

    “Asking for a favour?” Are you serious? Where’s the crime in that?

    You’re right. There’s absolutely no context around that conversation whatsoever. He was just asking for a light. Also, you must believe the Hillary Foundation is a legit charity…

    Compare and contrast:

    In plain site. Bragging about it. On video. Worse, he withheld a billion dollars unless they stopped investigating his son’s company. He gave them six hours to do it and they complied.

    Try again fuckstick.

    What am I supposed to try again? If Biden is corrupt the President can order the DoJ to open an investigation of him. Or the DoJ could do it themselves. They shouldn’t need the President to tell them how to do their jobs.
    Far as a I can tell there is no such investigation so…tell me about that favor the President was asking from Ukraine again…

    Can any of the stupid lefties on this thread explain that if they consider Trump’s “asking for advice” an impeachable offence, exactly how bad they consider Biden’s corruption to be?

    Yea because Trump supporters are totally not leftists. They just want the state to regulate trade, immigration, tech companies, engage in record breaking bailouts of farms their tariffs have bankrupted and pass record breaking spending bills.
    Not leftists at all…

  43. Elderly White Man From Skipton
    #3217430, posted on November 21, 2019 at 11:37 am

    Frank: just catching up are you?

    Others: Trump is a crook. This is not at all political. It’s simply a fact. Pompeo and Pence and Bolton will likely confirm what is already on the record.

    Ooh yes these impeachment proceedings are totally not backfiring at all.

  44. Chris M

    Hang the top six (we know who they are), the next level gets 30 years plus seizure of all assets etc. Until this is dealt with seriously – as a coup – the treasonous anti-democratic deep state will carry on.

  45. Chris M

    Ukrainian members of parliament have demanded the presidents of Ukraine and the United States, Volodymyr Zelensky and Donald Trump, investigate suspicions of the legalization of $7.4 billion by the “family” of ex-President Viktor Yanukovych through the American investment fund Franklin Templeton Investments, which they said has ties to the U.S. Democratic Party.”

  46. candy

    Yea because Trump supporters are totally not leftists. They just want the state to regulate trade, immigration, tech companies, engage in record breaking bailouts of farms their tariffs have bankrupted and pass record breaking spending bills.

    Iampeter is right there in a way. Trump is looking after citizens and their livelihood as best he can and protecting borders etc to give citizens a fair chance. And trying to get rid of corruption at the top.

    The Dems are interested in sexism, racism and climate change and opening up borders so that only the well off and elites get the chance to succeed , and seem riddled with corruption at the top.

    In a sense the Dems and Repubs have changed places. So Iampeter is kind of correct really. Good on him for spotting the way things have changed.

  47. jupes

    You’re right. There’s absolutely no context around that conversation whatsoever. He was just asking for a light.

    He was asking him to investigate an obvious case of corruption. Of course you lefty fuckwits don’t like that.

    What am I supposed to try again? If Biden is corrupt the President can order the DoJ to open an investigation of him. Or the DoJ could do it themselves. They shouldn’t need the President to tell them how to do their jobs.

    Or he can ask the Ukrainians to investigate. Both countries have agreed to root out corruption. There is no high crime or misdemeanor in that.

    Yea because Trump supporters are totally not leftists. They just want the state to regulate trade, immigration, tech companies, engage in record breaking bailouts of farms their tariffs have bankrupted and pass record breaking spending bills.

    Flail … flounder … Try again to answer the actual question fuckwit.

  48. jupes

    “Ukrainian members of parliament have demanded the presidents of Ukraine and the United States, Volodymyr Zelensky and Donald Trump, investigate suspicions of the legalization of $7.4 billion by the “family” of ex-President Viktor Yanukovych through the American investment fund Franklin Templeton Investments, which they said has ties to the U.S. Democratic Party.”

    No no. Look over there. Trump asked for a favour!

  49. BorisG

    I am not a fan of these leftists and their attempts to reverse people’s choice. Yet it is not their fault but their luck that Trump has turned out to be the most corrupt president in recent memory.

    Most Republicans will now continue to defend an indefensible. Sure a few will defect but most likely nowhere near enough of them to remove him from office.

    A parallel chapter which is likely to emerge soon is criminal prosecution of a rogue lawyer Rudi Giuliani (who was a brilliant mayor of NYC and I thought would make a great president. Little I knew). To save their skin, Trump and Giuliani will likely try to throw each other under the bus. It will be fun to watch.

    And then there is John Bolton. Fasten you’re seat belts.

  50. BorisG

    The next step is for trump to distance himself from Giuliani, just like he did previously with Michael Cohen.

  51. Colonel Crispin Berka

    Okay I’ll have another go at the guardhouse lawyer routine.

    The impeachment committee could let the suspension of aid thing slide since its arguable as commander in chief and as a president with veto power over spending bills and foreign policy authority he can suspend one payment for any or no reason. The problem isn’t so much the quid as the quo.

    What will make or break the case is interpretation of 18 U.S. Code § 201 (b) (2) (A):

    (2) being a public official or person selected to be a public official, directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity, in return for:
    (A) being influenced in the performance of any official act;
    …shall be fined under this title or not more than three times the monetary equivalent of the thing of value, whichever is greater, or imprisoned for not more than fifteen years, or both

    Dems have not proven that his actions met all parts of that crime.
    Firstly, although it is very suspicious that we haven’t seen the actual transcript or heard the real phone call recording, there is nonetheless no evidence so far that Trump ever explicitly linked the aid to the investigation in communication with Ukraine. So it was not done “in return” for anything, at least not that can be proven.
    The next hurdle for Dems is the interpretation of “thing of value personally”. It’s only a personal benefit to the officer if they benefit in a way that not all other Americans benefit from. So if Reps argue that knowing Biden is corrupt is a legit public interest to American voters facing a new POTUS election, then Americans benefit as much as Trump does in revealing that fact – it’s not a “personal” benefit.
    Another important point is that asking for an investigation is not asking for a particular favourable result. Dems could argue that requiring Zelinksy to announce the investigation was a benefit, but again it is only advantageous to Trump if it persuades people to see it as tarnishing Biden’s image even before the conclusion of the investigation. Reps could counter-argue that the Ukraine investigation (humour me for a second) might potentially clear Biden before the election, so it still isn’t a benefit to Trump personally to ask for one. It could backfire in theory. So it depends on how stupid or easily persuaded American voters are by smearing and innuendo. (Heheh, hehehee, eh, don’t answer that one.)
    Really not clear what the interpretation will be on USC 201.

    They probably should not let him get away with the witness intimidation via Twitter, as that is certainly the thing he’s most provably done which is probably illegal due to its effect if not intent. But the Republicans may decide to turn a blind eye to this infraction and won’t vote to impeach him for it. Wrong, but likely. So unless quite a few Reps break ranks and decided to do the right thing and vote to impeach, he’s going to be sitting peachy.

    A funny part of the hearing is how much the Dems’ line of questioning last week and questions by Raja Krishnamoorthi yesterday have relied upon highlighting just how dearly other world leaders want to get a meeting in the Oval Office with Trump! They are trying to say that dangling the chance of a meeting is another type of quid that Trump was quo’ing with, but the only effect this is likely to have is to undermine their case. They want to impeach the guy that everyone else is so keen to meet. Rrrright. How is that working for them exactly? The tone from Krishnamoorthi yesterday was a deflated fumbing for words, like there was no energy left in the exercise.

  52. candy

    Trump has turned out to be the most corrupt president in recent memory

    Boris, what are the corrupt things he has done? Things that are illegal, and he should be jailed for.
    Exactly tell me what are those corrupt things.

    I think Trump is great. I have the belief he means the best for USA and here is there at the right time and the right place for America. Kind of based of feelings and intuition.
    No surprise, but I would be keen to know the exact details of corruption in a legal sense. Could you outline it please?

  53. RobK

    Boris,
    A couple of New Yorkers doing their business as appointed.
    They’re not finished yet.
    Watch and learn.

  54. jupes

    I am not a fan of these leftists and their attempts to reverse people’s choice. Yet it is not their fault but their luck that Trump has turned out to be the most corrupt president in recent memory.

    Three years and tens of millions of dollars worth of investigations and set-ups by multiple government agencies and what have they got? Sweet. Fuck. All. Trump is spotlessly clean.

    A parallel chapter which is likely to emerge soon is criminal prosecution of a rogue lawyer Rudi Giuliani (who was a brilliant mayor of NYC and I thought would make a great president. Little I knew). To save their skin, Trump and Giuliani will likely try to throw each other under the bus. It will be fun to watch.

    Then you’ll wake up with a pirate’s nightmare (half a mast and a jellyfish on your guts)

    And then there is John Bolton. Fasten you’re seat belts.

    The triumph of hope over experience. You idiot.

  55. jupes

    Okay I’ll have another go at the guardhouse lawyer routine.

    Don’t waste your time. You are hopeless.

    Dems have not proven that his actions met all parts of that crime.

    No. Dems have not proven that his actions met ANY part of that crime.

  56. BorisG

    I made my predictions. I may be wrong. I will not debate boring idiots like Jupes.

    Btw I partly agree with Candy that Trump’s policies, while far from ideal, are far better than of the current crop of his opponents. But it is only his fault that he gives his opponents a golden opportunity to impeach him.

    There is no joy in the fact that in the biggest democracy on the planet they have a choice between a corrupt megalomaniac and a bunch of lunatic extremists.

  57. jupes

    I will not debate boring idiots like Jupes.

    Loser.

  58. BorisG

    Loser.

    Yes you are. Thanks for admission.

  59. BorisG

    trumps supporter believe one of two things(or both): either that their god can do no wrong, or he is so vital for the survival of the west that he needs to be supporter regardless how horrible has actions are.

    And the US system is consistent with this. The fate of the president is decided not by the court but by the senate, which presumably represents the will of the people.

    This is different in Australia and other parliamentary democracies, where everyone is equal before the law.

  60. jupes

    trumps supporter believe one of two things(or both): either that their god can do no wrong, or he is so vital for the survival of the west that he needs to be supporter regardless how horrible has actions are.

    Trump has done no wrong and he is vital for the survival of the west. He has not committed any “horrible actions”. None. Only brain dead NPCs can see “horrible actions” where none exist.

    But keep going with your stupid fantasies Boris, you gormless twit.

  61. Mark A

    jupes
    #3241668, posted on November 22, 2019 at 1:20 am

    I picked Boris years ago for what his political leanings are.
    Have a lot of saved snippets.

    He retreated a little for a while after the elections but he can’t hide his true feelings, I don’t know why he even tries?
    That he does means that he himself feels that he is wrong but ideology won’t let him admitting it.

  62. struth

    TDS sufferers deluding themselves in public yet again.
    I laugh in your face and fart in your general direction.
    TDS means no proof required.

  63. Iampeter

    He was asking him to investigate an obvious case of corruption. Of course you lefty fuckwits don’t like that.

    Us right wingers don’t like gross abuse of government authority like the President of the United States asking a foreign government to investigate an American citizen.
    Even if there wasn’t financial aid being withheld to be used as leverage.
    Even if the American citizen in question wasn’t his top polling opponent in the next election.

    It’s lefty fuckwits like you that have absolutely no clue what’s going on and are mindlessly defending your corrupt leftist President, with no shame, no principles, no scruples, nothing.

  64. mh

    It’s lefty fuckwits like you that have absolutely no clue what’s going on and are mindlessly defending your corrupt leftist President, with no shame, no principles, no scruples, nothing.

    😆

  65. Us right wingers don’t like gross abuse of government authority like the President of the United States asking a foreign government to investigate an American citizen.

    No never. Governments never cooperate to catch criminals.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-crime-exploitation/dark-web-child-porn-bust-leads-to-338-arrests-worldwide-idUSKBN1WV1WW

  66. JC

    Plodes is suggesting the head of the executive – head of the fbi, over a dozen intel agencies, the state dept., the DOJ doesn’t have the authority nor the remit to investigate corruption.

    This is coming from the rational atheist. The objectivist rational atheist.

  67. mh

    Iampeter, stick to topics that are within the scope of your Ayn Rand correspondence course.

  68. “It’s illegal to cooperate with other legitimate governments to investigate crimes against persons or property”

    He’s just LARPing fellas.

    No actual Objectivist pushes this bullshit.

    Imagine if Ayn Rand said the FBI could NOT work in principle with MI-5 to catch scum like Kim Philby.

    What an insane left wing lunatic.

  69. Bar Beach Swimmer

    At one point in his speech William Barr rhetorically asks of the other side, ‘what if the shoe was on the other foot?’ Previously, in a posting by Steve Kates, the author (sorry, but I haven’t gone back to identify which post) argues that, to the Left, ‘there is no other foot’. And that is the problem. The two sides do not play by the same set of rules. As Barr argues, the Left now speak of The Resistance rather than The Opposition. Thus there will be no peace because the Left will not have it. So President Trump is right – there can be no giving ground to the other side. He must be always on the offensive all of the time to counter every underhand and despicable action perpetrated by his enemies.

    Speaking of which, I saw Senator James Pattison the other night on Sky. While he is clearly a deep thinker, learned and erudite worryingly, for this modern political climate, his demeanour is too thoroughly gentleman-like in this post-marquis-of-queensbury-rules age. One wonders if we can survive in the parliament or be destroyed by the Left or, for that matter, by the malevolent elements in his own side.

  70. Iampeter

    Plodes is suggesting the head of the executive – head of the fbi, over a dozen intel agencies, the state dept., the DOJ doesn’t have the authority nor the remit to investigate corruption.

    That is the exact opposite of what I’m saying.
    Precisely because Trump has the ability to order investigations into corruption but has not done so is why we know this call was not about “rooting out corruption.”

  71. Elderly White Man From Skipton

    Frank: I believe Sondland’s summary was plain: “2+2=4”, just as his answer to the quid pro quo question was “yes”.
    Tucker Carlson and others can spin all they like. There’s a Macy’s parade of witnesses, all aligned. The only ones missing are the staff Trump refuses to allow to be heard.
    The only people buying Trump’s spin are those who are totally careless.

  72. JC

    Plodes doesn’t seem to even understand the meaning of “opposite”.

  73. The BigBlueCat

    Elderly White Man From Skipton
    #3241848, posted on November 22, 2019 at 9:42 am
    Frank: I believe Sondland’s summary was plain: “2+2=4”, just as his answer to the quid pro quo question was “yes”.
    Tucker Carlson and others can spin all they like. There’s a Macy’s parade of witnesses, all aligned. The only ones missing are the staff Trump refuses to allow to be heard.
    The only people buying Trump’s spin are those who are totally careless.

    Sondland drew back and said quid pro quo was his perception only and said Trump specifically said “no quid pro quo”. But I think the testimony of Hill and Holmes is more problematic, where they have said they were immediately alarmed at the prospect of Trump apparently going after a domestic political opponent. But where is the Whistleblower? He’s probably not really needed anymore .. though it’s clear the issues go well beyond just Trump’s 2 phone calls with the Ukraine president.

    But no matter – if the house votes impeachment, it goes to the Senate where the GOP can finally call their own witnesses (Giuliani included). I though Shiff’s final summation was reasonable, but the whole hearing was unfair to Trump, even if he’s guilty as hell.

    But impeachment will take a 2/3rd majority of the Senate to complete the process – no-one sees that happening.

    I would have thought that Trump has a responsibility to investigate Biden on the basis of perceived corruption via Burisma, Hunter Biden and the sacking of the Ukraine special investigator. That Biden is not yet Trump’s actual opponent or is Trump’s potential opponent, isn’t really all that germane – the Dems hooked into Trump during the 2016 election when he was their actual opponent, though certainly, they weren’t POTUS at the time (Obama was not standing for re-election since he’d served 2 terms).

    I’d bet a dollar that the DoJ and the IG are both investigating Biden anyway – or at least assembling enough information to indict Biden. That the House Dems, Department of State, FBI and CIA are running interference for the DNC only makes the job a little harder.

    Time will tell. One can sense there is a plan to all these hearings and investigations.

  74. Elderly White Man From Skipton
    #3241848, posted on November 22, 2019 at 9:42 am

    Frank: I believe Sondland’s summary was plain: “2+2=4”, just as his answer to the quid pro quo question was “yes”.

    You’re lying. Trump specifically gave a direct order to his subordinates: NO QUID PRO QUO.

    You’re telling me a witness attesting to a denial is the same as confirmation.

    You are an illiberal, kafkaesque, totalitarian swine that hates freedom, rule of law and the truth.

Comments are closed.