A message from Denis Hart

The burden of suspicion has fallen on the minority Muslim community in Australia because of the actions of extremists. That is not fair, and we should not allow it to continue.

We should let the law enforcement authorities investigate and prosecute criminal behaviour, whether by people of faith or none. Our job as Australians is to build and strengthen relationships in local communities.

In a good community, we can empathise with our neighbours. We can empathise with Muslim people in our community that they are in a difficult spot because of the actions of a small number of extremists.

From an op-ed in The Australian.

Let us appeal to our common humanity before we condemn our differences. Most people want to live their lives in peace, earn a living, and enjoy the company of their family and friends.

Update: I see some very strong views in the thread. Very disappointing.

Here is another way of looking at the issue.

KKK - ISIS

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745 Responses to A message from Denis Hart

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  1. Sally Moore

    Hear, hear Sinc, well said.

  2. phil

    No. I’ve had enough. Islam is completely incompatible with our way of life.

  3. whyisitso

    Denis Hart says: “We need to talk to each other to find the common values we share.”

    With Muslims that’s like shuffling through the putrid contents of the red bin trying to find that bit of chocolate one of the grandchildren lost.

  4. whyisitso

    Commenter Rosemary, in the linked article:

    My observation – there were no Muslim protests in Australia over the actions of their fellow Muslims in Rotherham, UK; there were no Muslim protests in Australia over the actions of Boko Haram; there were no Muslim protests in Australia over various non-combatant Westerners getting their heads lopped off in the Middle East by ISIS; there were no Muslim protests in Australia over the killing and abductions of Yazidi, Christian and other minorities by ISIS; I also recollect no Muslim protests in Australia about the terror attacks in London, Bali, Madrid, Mumbai, Philadelphia, and of course, New York. What I did observe is Muslims in Australia demonstrating about an asylum seeker getting murdered during a riot on Manus Island, about police raids in Sydney and Brisbane, and a demonstration about that young Muslim getting himself killed by one of our coppers (after he tried to kill them first).

    So true.

  5. Newbie

    The only ‘moderate’ Muslim is an apostate …

  6. Greigoz

    Sorry, the do-nothing moderates are just a Trojan Horse for the extremists. Until ALL the Muslim Leaders come out en-masse against the cancer growing in our suburbs, I’ll continue to distrust them.

  7. Zippy The Younger

    The burden of suspicion has fallen on the minority Nazi community in Australia because of the actions of extremists. That is not fair, and we should not allow it to continue.

    We should let the law enforcement authorities investigate and prosecute criminal behaviour, whether by people of politics or none. Our job as Australians is to build and strengthen relationships in local communities.

    In a good community, we can empathise with our neighbours. We can empathise with Nazis in our community that they are in a difficult spot because of the actions of a small number of extremists.

  8. A breath of fresh air – and a flicker of hope that we don’t get dragged into a vortex of fear and hate……………

  9. Nic

    I have little sympathy for those who come to a country owing to its freedoms and benefits and who work to destroy it. How many within that small minority are needed to wreck others’ lives forever?

  10. phil

    My threshold for the number of beheadings, amputations, whippings, honor killings, suicide bombings, assaulted police/military personnel, mutilated girls, rape victims imprisoned around the world has been reached.

    I’ve had female friends harassed on Cronulla and Bondi beaches, am subjected to riduculous airport security, have been threatened with stabbing on my way to work at Parramatta. As a former cop I have been threatened, had friends assaulted and a nearby station riddled with bullets.

    But lastly, if you want to deny my daughter the simple pleasure of feeling the wind in her hair, fuck you.

  11. C.L.

    From the article:

    There have been reports over the past fortnight of abuse and threats directed at both Muslims and Christians.

    This is a lie.

    The challenge for Australians is how we relate to each other on a personal level. Do we replicate the divisions and threats seen overseas, or do we respond differently?

    “We” didn’t do a damned thing to replicate overseas threats and divisions.

    So that’s a lie too.

    Rather than exclude or shun people because of their religious beliefs, we should reach out to them as fellow Australians.

    “We” don’t have to do anything of the sort. Muslims who come here have to “reach out” and become like us. Not dress like fucking idiots and stick their noses in the air to advertise their moral superiority.

    The purpose of terrorism is to divide and conquer. It is to shatter the trust that holds communities together and replace it with suspicion and fear. But distrust and fear only dominate if we let them.

    “We” are not morally responsible for terrorism.

    The next time you see someone of Muslim background say hello, smile and start a conversation.

    No.

    Australian Muslim leaders have a crucial role speaking out against violence and the Islamic State. We should support them in their important work.

    Australian “Muslim leaders” are anti-semitic lunatics.

    I support limited and measured military assistance from Australia to help defend the people of northern Iraq. But military solutions do not bring lasting peace.

    Hart wants support for Christians being exterminated to be “limited”? And military solutions certainly brought lasting peace to Germany and Japan.

    How can we counter violence except with armed force? But consider the fruits of war in Iraq and Afghanistan and other countries.

    Hart supports Saddam Hussein and the Taliban? Nice.

    The tension in the Middle East has again revived the views of some who see religion as divisive and threatening. But religion properly pursued is peaceful. Religious groups are no more than communities of people who share a common faith and values.

    Christians in the Middle East have been subjected to and are being subjected to a Holocaust.

  12. C.L.

    It is a mainstream belief among Muslims that Israel should be exterminated.

    So no, they are not just another minority we have to love.

    You also ought to be aware that conservative Catholic prelates have longstanding form for allying themselves with Muslims to garrison their own traditionalist social, sexual and familial beliefs in national and international fora.

  13. Newbie

    Idealists are thankfully first to be ‘liquidated’ … Keep on dreaming of your Utopian caliphate.

  14. JB5

    +1 C.L.

    Close the thread, any further comments redundant….

  15. Infidel Tiger

    Let us appeal to our common humanity before we condemn our differences. Most people want to live their lives in peace, earn a living, and enjoy the company of their family and friends.

    True, but the Muslim community seemed determined to end that.

  16. Insert Name

    Denis Hart says: “We need to talk to each other to find the common values we share.”

    It’s going to be a short conversation.

  17. Leo G

    The burden of suspicion has fallen on the minority Muslim community in Australia because of the actions of extremists. That is not fair, and we should not allow it to continue.

    The suspicion, though, is that the actions of the extremists is but a symptom of a wider problem of Islamic doctrine and of moral and political failure on our own part in failing to confront the consequences of denying evil.

  18. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    religion properly pursued is peaceful

    and moral.

    Let’s put the emphasis on ‘properly’.

    See Rosemary’s comment abstracted above for examples of how Muslims in Australia have improperly pursued aggression not peace and how they have deliberately eschewed moral responsibility for their the end result of some of their Imans and Koranic texts. Australians have had enough. Muslims need to put their own house in order and make it plain that they are doing so.

  19. Gab

    The next time you see someone of Muslim background say hello, smile and start a conversation.

    Sure.

  20. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    the end result – not their

  21. C.L.

    The Vatican has been triangulating a Catholic/Muslim voting bloc for several years now to defeat – or at least combat – various UN and other ‘initiatives’ relating to abortion, contraception and marriage. That’s why Denis Hart didn’t write an article when Jewish schools and individuals were being attacked in his very own city a couple of months ago. That’s why the entire Catholic Bishops Conference of Australia hasn’t said a thing about the extermination of Christians in the Middle East.

  22. Notafan

    How many Catholic Archbishops have been murdered by Muslims in the last five years?
    I can think of two.
    I admire the continuing offer but Christians should be proletizing muslims not encouraging more of the same.

  23. Notafan

    Not to mention shooting the Pope not so many years ago and threatening to kill the last and current popes.

  24. Gab

    And yet another “community leader” adds his voice to the appeasement. Yet another voice encourages the victimhood of muslims. Yet another voice believes the garbage about muslims being attacked here. Yet another white middle-aged man cowers in fear instead of speaking the bland truth. How nice of Hart to speak up for muslims while saying absolutely nothing about the Christians been annihilated in the Middle East and Africa.

  25. JMH

    There’s no such thing as a moderate muslim. They all desire the global caliphate. The Trojan Horse or the blades of grass that conceal the serpents – take your pick.

    I extend my hand to those who deserve it – not to those who want me dead.

  26. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    But lastly, if you want to deny my daughter the simple pleasure of feeling the wind in her hair, fuck you.

    Well said. This is the most obvious symbol of our difference in values, and one that Muslims could immediately remedy by asking their women to stop wearing the thing. Until 9/11 and the Muslim’s confrontational response to our outrage, female imprisonment in clothing and head-covering was in retreat as a religious obligation in ‘modernising’ Islamic nations. As I understand it no major sacred text of theirs actually prescribes the hijab. As for the other ‘coverings’ (shudder); such medievalism should never be encouraged, let alone someone in the full tent and grill being unquestioningly interviewed on the ABC last night. Such things have no place in Australia. It was like interviewing a Greenie politician still in a Koala suit.

  27. It’s tiresome how every time we discuss terrorism or Islamic radicalism we have to preface the argument with, “Islam is a peaceful religion – and most muslims are peaceful…” – blah blah blah… It reminds me of Seinfeld and the “Not that there’s anything wrong with that”. Except that was funny (and harmless).

    I can understand why some muslims would want to distance themselves from acts performed in the name of their religion. But if they are victims, they are victims within their own religion – not of the rest of society.

    There is nothing wrong with the instinctive “mental profiling” done by an ordinary citizen. Islam is over-represented amongst the “bad guys”, and as long as suspicion isn’t taken to absurd levels, it is statistically warranted. Many muslims who would never commit acts of violence still sympathise with those who do.

  28. Hamish Marshall

    I call bullshit on this idiotic appeasement. If there are significant numbers of Moslems out there who do reject sharia law (rather than wish to inflict it on the rest of humanity), then they need to say so, loud and clear. The Feds should be prepared to provide overt and covert protection to any Australian citizen of Muslim faith who is prepared to take up this challenge, but if there are no takers, their lives will end up in tears eventually. Roughly 50% of Australians want to retain their Judao Christian civilisation, 25% couldn’t give a stuff (keep me welfare coming you bastards) and 25% (Greens, trade unionists, academics, leftoid lawyers, journalists, local Islamists, Churchmen, doctors wives etc) are actively committed to its destruction. For the moment, we have the numbers if their continuous pushing comes to shove. Several years ago, the Pew Institute did a detailed evaluation of local Moslem support for sharia law, country by country, around the 3rd world and developed world (excluding China Japan , South Korea and Taiwan obviously) and in some Western countries there was under 50% support for sharia. Sinclair, all is not lost, if we are prepared to stop this infantile hand wringing .

  29. The Vatican has been triangulating a Catholic/Muslim voting bloc for several years now to defeat – or at least combat – various UN and other ‘initiatives’ relating to abortion, contraception and marriage. That’s why Denis Hart didn’t write an article when Jewish schools and individuals were being attacked in his very own city a couple of months ago. That’s why the entire Catholic Bishops Conference of Australia hasn’t said a thing about the extermination of Christians in the Middle East.

    Sad but true. There’s even a book by my otherwise beloved Peter Kreeft, Ecumenical Jihad.

    I’m still waiting for any sign that the Islamic community is willing to purify its own, a la the Catholic Church and the sexual abuse crisis. Maybe the Archbishop of Melbourne might like to give the Islamic community some pointers on how to clean up one’s act.

  30. Badjack

    Get Denis Hart to tell the Muslim leadership

  31. Breaking news: Regensberg truth-spotter and Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI asks to be reinstated!


    (don’t panic – it’s only Eye of the Tiber …)

  32. Badjack

    I don’t know who Denis Hart is but I presume he is considered to be educated, learned and smart.
    However, nous does not seem to feature when he talks about sharing ‘common values’. Perhaps he could outline in detail the values (common or not) that Muslims share with us.

  33. sfw

    The german population was silent up to and during WW2, the majority knew what was going on and tacitly approved and said nothing. The muslim population in Australia know what is going on and they say nothing because they tacitly approve. They can do no else or they would be denying the tenets of their religion.

  34. Leigh Lowe

    It’s all NTDWI
    The end.

  35. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Denuis Hart is a genuine idiot.

    What the hell does he think we have been DOING for the last 20 years?

    Now, what have the results been?

    Aside from 30 Wahabis and Salafi arabs imprisoned for terrorism, that is.

    Well, they have been two-fold. The vast majority of the South-East Asian muslim community have been peaceful and integrate, if slowly. I can think of one member of the SEA islamic community charged with a terrorist offence and he was a convert with an Indonesian wife – Jack Roche.

    The vast majority of the Middle-eastern islamic community have not been peaceful, refuse to integrate, and now form active terrorist organisations (and worse, massive transnational criminal organisations linked to Hamas, Hizb’allah, ISIS, AQ, JI, etc etc) inside this country.

    Yet, the larger Middle Eastern Christian communities are well integrated, have bugger-all organised crime, and form a backbone of the small business community.

    So it is not about race in any way, is it? It’s about religion.

    It’s about the extensive network of Wahabist and Salafist ideological groupings within the ME islamic community – and they have declared war on this society.

    Why?

    Because that is what the Wahabi and Salafi ideologies are about. They are the vanguard of conquest. It’s what they do and have always done. it’s not rocket science, there’s only 1,400 years of historical proof.

    What Hart does here is reveal himself as profoundly ignorant of both histopy and of the reality in which he lives – in other words, he has the standard ‘kumbaya redneck’ view of islam.

    Denis, old son, wahabis and Salafis are not Christians in funny robes. They are islams version of the very worst aspects of socialism. Think of a Wahabi and a Salafi as indistinguishable from a National Socialist true-believer and you are pretty much on the money.

    They openly state their intent, which is to do here what the National Socialists did in 1930s germany – conquer it for their ideology. It’s no secret. It’s proclaimed in the Wahabi and Salafi mosques every bloody Friday.

    And Hart very obviously has absolutely no idea of that reality.

  36. hzhousewife

    The thing that most disturbs me is the lying (taqiyya). Very hard to
    maintain civil society without trust.
    I also wonder whether Muslim women would wear the veil
    if there were no Muslim men. I think it is a cultural construct, not
    a religious issue, therefore can be modified to suit the country they
    are in.

  37. Giffy

    No.
    Not visiting a mosque.
    Not starting up a conversation.
    No such person as a moderate Muslim.

  38. Chris M

    From The Telegraph:

    Earlier this week, it was reported that Mr Choudary said he has no sympathy for Alan Henning, a volunteer aid worker captured in Syria whose life was threatened in a recent video released by IS.

    Mr Choudary is reported to have said: “In the Koran it is not allowed for you to feel sorry for non-Muslims. I don’t feel sorry for him.”

  39. Cato the Elder

    It was like interviewing a Greenie politician still in a Koala suit.

    LOL but so true. It’s costume dress up time, pantomime for the kiddies.

  40. Cato the Elder

    I think that the reason for the deafening silence from the (irrelevant) majority of “moderate” (read: secular) Muslims is that the fanatics have the Koran on their side – and the “moderates” know it. They might not want to personally practice everything that’s in there; but they know it’s there and they can’t bring themselves to come out and denounce it. Orwellian double-think, big time.

  41. thefrollickingmole

    Ok, in small letters could he explain (without referring to food) exactly why Muslim immigration is good for the broader Australian society?
    When less than 2% of the population appear to generate a massively disproportionate level of cost for what?

  42. Robert O

    Do students attending religious schools, colleges, get a reasonable secular education, or are they totally brain-washed?

  43. Matthew

    Except for a handful of ‘Judeo-Christian’ dispensationalists I doubt that there are many Australians that care about what God Muslims pray to.

    Indeed Muslim crime rates are probably more damaging to community relations than Muslim terrorism.

    Let’s say that it is all the fault of the racism and prejudice towards Muslims of vanilla Australians that this article implies. Yes, we are racist an LDP evil, and we cannot live equitably among the poor foreigners that we have brought here for our wicked ends. Does it not then behooves us to restrict immigration so that we do not victimise poor foreign peoples with our white Australian racism?

    Protect Muslims, restrict immigration.

  44. Senile Old Guy

    And yet another “community leader” adds his voice to the appeasement. Yet another voice encourages the victimhood of muslims. Yet another voice believes the garbage about muslims being attacked here. Yet another white middle-aged man cowers in fear instead of speaking the bland truth. How nice of Hart to speak up for muslims while saying absolutely nothing about the Christians been annihilated in the Middle East and Africa.

    Exactly.

    Hart joins the conga line of supposed “leaders” lecturing us kafir on how to be nice to, and not disturb or annoy, the supposed majority of moderate muslims. Where are the “community leaders”, kafir and muslim, lecturing the muslims in this country on how to behave? “Moderate” muslims may be the majority but they are very much the silent majority. The majority of the muslims in this country who are not silent, are clearly not moderate.

    The two police extended the hand of friendship and were stabbed and seriously wounded. They fired in self defence but many of the not-silent, not-moderate muslims are shouting that they murdered a young muslim boy who had merely made a mistake.

    By lecturing the kafir, Hart validates, yet again, the muslim claim to permanent victim status.

  45. Ellen of Tasmania

    Most people want to live their lives in peace, earn a living, and enjoy the company of their family and friends.

    I think that is very true. I think that is true about moderate socialists. I also know that moderate socialists will always support the socialist agenda – and inch by inch we cease to be a free, capitalist country. I know lots of moderate socialists who can’t conceive of a world without government schools, government health care, government welfare and so on. I know lots of moderate socialists whose first question when anything looks even remotely troublesome is “What is the government going to do about it?” But they aren’t communists. Not at all, not anywhere like it. But they don’t oppose any one particular move towards that end.

    In that sense, a ‘moderate’ is just someone on the journey. They’re in the carriage and they won’t stop the train and the train is on a certain line and it’s heading somewhere.

  46. incoherent rambler

    Let us appeal to our common humanity before we condemn our differences.

    See
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/cartoons/photos-e6frg6zx-1226796005926

  47. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Fleeced:

    It’s tiresome how every time we discuss terrorism or Islamic radicalism we have to preface the argument with, “Islam is a peaceful religion…

    Oh, it is. Islam is a religion of peace – by their definition of peace.

    That definition is ‘peace is the state reached when the whold world is subject to sharia law.’

    That is why you can see interviews where a savage who is still holding the dripping head of a small Christian child he has just murdered is lauded by his comrades for the ‘act of peace’ he has just committed, amid general shouts of ‘allah akhbar’.

    Lefties, the ignoratii and idiots (BIRM) hear the word ‘peace’ and apply THEIR definition. being morons, they never say ‘how you you define the term ‘peace‘ O wahabi mullah?’

  48. .

    Tough crowd, people on the open thread and here are calling all Muslims morally equivalent to the Nazis, which is obvious bullshit but good luck drumming sense into these people’s demented heads.

  49. Peter

    “Common humanity” is based around Common core values

    I will believe that we are some way toward shared core values when I hear Muslim leadership openly discussing the contradictions in their belief system and taking responsibility for the radicalisation of their people.

    That is nothing more than common honesty

  50. Gab

    I also wonder whether Muslim women would wear the veil if there were no Muslim men.

    Let’s talk fashion.

    Before Ayatollah Khomeini came along, Iran was a country that sought to imitate Western life including attire. Before the latter day totalitarian appeared, women in Iran wore mini-skirts, After 1979, minis were not acceptable and certainly not tolerated. Punishment was swift and the populace meekly accepted this and other hardline Islamic law.

    Here’s a young lady from Tehran “Tempting Tehran: This photo, from the 1960s, could be from any beach scene in the Western world, with a beautiful woman holding a seductive pose spread over a shiny sports car. Since the Iranian revolution in 1979, women, if at the beach at all, will be draped from head to toe in black and, at most fashionable, might brave the burkini. ”

    And this wave of intolerant Islam continued to infect the Middle East and beyond.

    Iraqi female students from the‘70s “during Iraq’s educational ‘Golden Age’ in which school enrollment reached 100% and illiteracy dropped, shows schoolgirls sporting skirts above the knee”.

    Women could play basketball and wear short shorts in Baghdad in the 1970s.

    All that’s gone now and the moderate muslims did nothing back then to stop this ebolic scourge spreading across the region. And they’re still doing nothing to contain the spread of this devastating pestilence today.

  51. James of the Glen

    Denis Hart says: “We need to talk to each other to find the common values we share.”

    Perhaps Hart means, extend your hand in good faith, and keep on smiling as you find yourself attacked and stabbed multiple times.
    It took several seconds for the Victoria Police and AFP officers to discover what were the shared values.

    Hart is part of the problem.

  52. Peter

    If we cannot expect honesty, then we have nothing in common but mutual distrust.

    That is the litmus test……. and it cannot function unilaterally.

  53. Adam

    The majority of the muslims saying nothing are fence sitters. They are happy to keep their heads down now, but if our country were taken over by this lot then they’d be more than happy to trade on their muslim status to their advantage in that situation. Which means they are just as bad.

  54. Milton Von Smith

    Denis Hart: useful idiot.

  55. Alfonso

    Denis, champion, Abdul Newman was a true, straight down the line, Koran and Hadith guided Muslim.
    He followed Islamic religious instructions to the letter.

    This might come as a shock, but those same documents unambiguously instruct him to kill infidels.

    Be interested to hear your views on how any Koran believing Muslim can be a moderate.

  56. Chris M

    people on the open thread and here are calling all Muslims morally equivalent to the Nazis

    Get educated dolt, read the koran. Moslem ideology is easily worse than the Nazi version.

    You can reach out to the Moslem and offer them friendship, help and aid – they will take the aid then cut your head off because that is what the demonic forces that wrote the koran command them to do.

  57. C.L.

    … people on the open thread and here are calling all Muslims morally equivalent to the Nazis …

    The belief that the Jews should be exterminated is mainstream.

    They want every Jew in the Middle East killed or sent packing.

    See Hitler’s Willing Executioners – whose thesis was not that every German gassed or butchered Jews but that they silently approved of their countrymen doing so.

    So don’t try your bullshit Godwin superiority here, Dot.

  58. Gab

    Let’s put things into perspective: Around 3% of the population here are muslim and yet the acres of print and hours of discussion yield nothing other than appeasement of this minority, kau tau-ing to their hysterical infantile demands and perpetuating their victimhood mythical status. Stop blaming all muslims here. Blame their useful western idiots, like Hart, for treating this minority like the Golden Child.

  59. C.L.

    And let it be repeated here that Pope Francis’s photo opportunity gifted to the Hamas terror gang in Gaza was one of the most disgraceful acts ever seen from a pope. Hamas is doctrinally committed to the extermination of the Jewish people. It was no different to Cardinal Pell traveling to Syria to have tea and scones with ISIS.

  60. Sinclair Davidson

    All been hit with the silly-stick I see.

  61. Fisky

    The next time you see someone of Muslim background

    …give them a good shove!

  62. Sinclair Davidson

    Fisky – an get done for assault. Good.

  63. Fisky

    Being serious now, I’m all for starting conversations, but I’m not sure what I’m meant to discuss with random Muslims in the current environment.

    “I think Israel is a magnificent country that should be preserved as a Jewish state forever. What do you think?”

  64. .

    C.L.
    #1460158, posted on September 26, 2014 at 10:29 am
    … people on the open thread and here are calling all Muslims morally equivalent to the Nazis …

    They are.

    Let me reiterate: ALL Muslims are morally equivalent to the Nazis of 1921-1945.

    It’s bullshit.

  65. Leigh Lowe

    OK, we’ve heard from Denis.
    But what does Lara Bingle have to say on the matter?

  66. Makka

    “No. I’ve had enough. Islam is completely incompatible with our way of life.”

    I’m with Phil. Islam is irredeemably abhorrent.

  67. Fisky

    Fisky – an get done for assault. Good.

    The “give them a good shove” meme is a running joke that dates back to toppling of Lenin statues in Ukraine. The sentence always starts “If/when/next time you see (insert undesirable here)…give them a good shove!” Denis Hart must be aware of it because he started his sentence in exactly the same structure but then clearly had second thoughts.

  68. Driftforge

    All been hit with the silly-stick I see.

    Ponder that, and note that this is a reasonably Libertarian weighted place, and a reasonably high IQ forum.

    This is the genteel version of this discussion. Elsewhere, what we see here is forming as emotion, not logic.

  69. C.L.

    Let me reiterate: ALL Muslims are morally equivalent to the Nazis of 1921-1945.

    It’s bullshit.

    Let me reiterate:

    See Hitler’s Willing Executioners – whose thesis was not that every German gassed or butchered Jews but that they silently approved of their countrymen doing so.

    Dot shelters in “all” like Bill Clinton hid behind “is.”

    You’re not fooling anyone, Dot.

  70. Driftforge

    Let me reiterate: ALL Muslims are morally equivalent to the Nazis of 1921-1945.

    What year are we up to? When did the Nazi’s first start killing people in their quest for power?

  71. .

    The total guilt thesis. Absolute shit.

    Equating Nazis with Germans?

    FMD.

    You’re not fooling anyone, Dot.

    Dot shelters in “all” like Bill Clinton hid behind “is.”

    What does dover beach say? Words have meanings.

    Buy a dictionary.

  72. Infidel Tiger

    Being serious now, I’m all for starting conversations, but I’m not sure what I’m meant to discuss with random Muslims in the current environment.

    “G’day Abdullah! How’s the Chattel and kids?”

  73. calli

    I don’t think Ellen’s observation was silly at all, Sinc.

    In that sense, a ‘moderate’ is just someone on the journey. They’re in the carriage and they won’t stop the train and the train is on a certain line and it’s heading somewhere.

    Whilst good ‘moderates’ lie supine and do nothing, that train they’re on is going to find the cliff. Same goes for the trajectory of the laws being enacted to supposedly protect us, if people like you and me don’t jack up and complain. Even if we do, I suspect that like the ‘moderates’ we are irrelevant after all.

  74. Alfonso

    ‘All been hit with the silly-stick I see.’
    Be interested to hear Sinc’s views on how any Koran believing Muslim can be a moderate.

  75. Chris M

    Re: Sinc’s update, will try to spell it out simply…

    The KKK are not representative of Christians because their actions are condemned by the Holy Bible and do not match the example of Jesus Christ in any way.

    The jihadis ARE representative of Islam because their actions ARE in accordance with the Koran and follow exactly the example of Mohammad.

  76. Makka

    Get real Sinc.

    The religion of Islam, it’s teachings , it’s followers are committed to some extent or other to displacing the infidels and their laws. According to Islam, this can be achieved by submission or by elimination. Islam wants imposition of sharia. Those are the facts.

    Smiling friendly moslems aside, every moslem believes in this , whether they enable it or not. Your article above exhorts us to reach out to our would be conquerors. You may not realise it but we, the Christian West, are in a struggle to keep our way of life intact. The wars going on in the ME are the overt battles. The more important battle IMO is the one being waged right here- in the blogs and media of the West. For the hearts and minds of everyday people. Because it is us, voters, who will either allow Islam to grow in our midst or halt that cancer.

    You have chosen to be with the appeasers. So be it. There are however those who won’t give in to the false comfort of appeasement , like me. Islam wants to take away my way of life. Islam wants us changed. The way I see it if enough Australians reject Islam here, that will be prevented. I reject Islam and this Govts capitulation in not naming this enemy in our society is vile. I wont be reaching out to Islam.

  77. Fred Furkenburger

    I might have missed it being said above but there is a big difference between the people in the top picture v the bottom picture. The people in the top picture may have been Christians but that wasn’t the reason for their attitudes/actions. It was white supremacy. Nor did they call themselves Christians in the same way the people the bottom picture call themselves Islamists. Maybe because they call themselves Islamists and claim that the Muslim religion validates their actions it just might be Islam that is the problem. Just sayin’.

  78. stackja

    I do not remember such a disruptive group as the Muslims. Corrupting youth so that groups are attacking police in Sydney and now in Melbourne almost killing two police and in Sydney abusing other faiths in the name of Islam.
    I do not know of even a small KKK group in Australia. I have not known of any violence by the KKK in Australia.
    But we are being told there are violent Muslim groups.
    If the Muslims just quietly got with their lives and stopped preaching their strange ideas to those who are non-Muslim, Australia could return to the mostly harmonious of the past. I know I am dreaming again.

  79. Makka

    “All been hit with the silly-stick I see.”

    This is the type of insulting condescension that riles people Sinc. Demeaning those who don’t want to appease our would be conquerors. Bloody shameful.

  80. LordAzrael

    Tough crowd, people on the open thread and here are calling all Muslims morally equivalent to the Nazis, which is obvious bullshit but good luck drumming sense into these people’s demented heads.

    There’s a good reason for that.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_%281st_Croatian%29

  81. Gab

    Why do people think these are representative of all Muslims? Sinclair’s update. Well I’m thinking it’s becuase we very rarely hear any “moderate” Muslim voices speak out – unless of course you believe those on the Q&A panel are moderate, they were being put forth as the moderate voices of Islam remember. Because all we hear from the various muslim “community leaders” and their various Islamic Councils is condemnation of the West, not condemnation of their brotheres in Boko Haram or the Islamic State or any of the many other al-queda offshoot; nothing but apologetics for those in your picture update. Not all muslims think the same but the common denominator is their religion and Islam is not the religion of peace with it’s over 109 Koranic verses of hate against the kaffir.

  82. Makka

    Sinc, your Update is a complete insult. I suggest you take it down please.

  83. lotocoti

    All been hit with the silly-stick I see.

    It does smack of throwing stones at Dachshunds a century ago.
    However, their Gott mit uns is so much more than just a belt buckle slogan.

  84. Giorgio

    The islamofascist grand poobah of Australia has ordered the Federal and state governments to do the following,
    1). Prosecute the police who mrdered the poos innocent boy in Melbourne.
    2) pay $159,0000,0000 compensation to the family and grand poobah.
    3). Increase muslim migration by 500 per cent annualy.
    4) lgalise polygamy for increased welfare payments.
    5)! Pay welfare to muslims living overseas .
    6)”stop attacks on peace loving caliphate freedom fighters.
    7).make islamophobia a capital offence.punishable by beheading,
    8)” abolish ASIO,ADF and police forces,in favour of religous police ,
    Federal and State politicians of all parties have formed working groups to implement the grand poobahs demands he har generously. Given them seven days to obey him.

  85. rebel with cause

    There are some Muslim Zionists but they are pretty rare and generally despised by the rest of the Muslim community.

  86. areff

    Sinc, your update with the postcard illustrations is misguided.

    At one point the KKK did represent Christians, and such was its power and influence that even Harry Truman, then an aspiring politician, felt obliged to join, despite having a Jewish business partner. The KKK was finally humbled by its own actions (blowing up little girls in black churches, killing white civil rights workers), the law-enforcement offensives those acts finally inspired, and more recently, civil actions that have left it bankrupt.

    Remember, they were upright Christian folk who were shrieking abuse at the first black kids who dared to attend Little rock High School. The good Christians, like the moderate Muslims we hear so much about, valued their safety and kept their mouths shut. It took more than a century to scuttle the Klan, which was no more than a regional tumor in one country. What chance of reforming an entire, global religion even more given to the use of terror than those rednecks in white sheets? Further, Christians will find no justification for racism in the New Testament, unlike the Koran.

    The analogy with the KKK is more apt than you intended.

    I notice in today’s Age various people quoted as saying they are scared to speak out about the Islamic firebrands — all are quoted anonymously. The rest of us can’t give Muslims the courage to speak up, but they have been guaranteed official support and protection if they do. Yet with only one exception that I can think of, and that a limp one, not a single Muslim has mounted the soapbox to denounce his co-religionists.

  87. Megan

    OK, for the sake of the argument I will accept the Moderate Muslim hypothesis and believe that the great majority of Muslims are not terrorists and do not accept terrorism.

    But, if they cannot control the extremists and barbarians acting under the name of their religion (Big Hint: ISLAMIC State) it is inevitable that they will end up paying the price even if they are not the ones wielding the swords or guns. Shame we can’t ask all those moderate Germans and Japanese how that worked out for them.

  88. rebel with cause

    Perhaps Australian citizenship could be made conditional on a public pledge of support for Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state. It’d help combat the dual threat of Muslim extremism and pommy unionists.

  89. feelthebern

    Geez Sinc, really?
    What next? Are you going to put a pic up of the SS equating them to Christians too, even though they were Occultists?

    Bottom line, this is a Muslim problem, that can only be fixed by the Muslim community.

  90. Driftforge

    Sinc, rather than be petty about it, how about a thought out comparison with what you saw happen in South Africa? It’s obviously informing your current viewpoint, but none of us (that I’m aware of) went through that.

  91. TBear

    Sinc, here is the point: of 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, the vast majority aspire to a society ruled by religious law, with no separation of church and state and no freedom of religion: these are mainstream views within Sunni and Shia Islam. Only one Muslim majority nation in the Middle East is not an Islamic autocracy: Jordan. The Christian West used to be like this, but we got over it in a little moment called “The Enlightenment”. Once you agree on a separation of church and state, the whole rationale for religious warfare disappears. Until Islam comes to the same conclusion (don’t hold your breath) it is an existential threat to the West, to liberty, to freedom or religion, to democracy, to free speech and every other core value that we hold dear. The multicultural/PC madness which forbids a rational, in the circumstances that I have set out, call for an end to Muslim immigration to Australia will continue to undermine social harmony in this country and will, inevitably, drive our politics in directions that no-one wants. On the basis of what principle, pray tell, are we obliged to continue to admit the bearers of a culture which is bent upon undermining the foundations of our superior civilization?

  92. Sinclair Davidson

    Sinc, your Update is a complete insult. I suggest you take it down please.

    No. There has been a very nasty and very ugly anti-Muslim sentiment creep into the comments and I don’t like it.

    It wrong, it unfair, it is immoral.

    Condemn terrorists and criminals, let the law enforcement agencies enforce the law, but to condemn people for simply being Muslim, or [insert random group of people here] is wrong.

  93. Driftforge

    Bottom line, this is a Muslim problem, that can only be fixed by the Muslim community.

    Well, no, it can be fixed externally, but that won’t be pretty.

  94. notafan

    To be fair there is religious support for the covering of women from some sayings of Mohammed, not sure if they are surah or hadith but there is certainly a direction to cover women, though some argue that is it only applied to Mohammed’s wives.

    I am always polite and friendly to Muslims, one I am a casual acquaintance of did shock me once with a blantantly anti Jewish comment in relation to 9/11. I think the anti semitism is deeply ingrained and of course the koran is blatant in requiring muslims to kill Jews.
    And of course there are good decent people who follow islam and probably practice some sort of cognitive dissonance in relation to the koran. What do you do when you are born into a faith that promises you death if you try to leave?

    As for the problems we have I have read something about the first wave of middle class emigration of muslims being to escape the oppression of sharia which is part and parcel of islam, you cannot separate it out. The migrants are followed by imans who then bring back the things the migrants sought to escape which is where the radicalised second generation come from.
    I’ll have a look for the article.

    That isn’t the only reason for the problems here. The religious and cultural world of islam is one of superiority over the kafir , a grand sense of entitlement and a history of aggression and domination over other religions and cultures.

  95. Peter S

    An interesting essay in Quadrant On-line this morning could add somewhat to this discussion:

  96. Hendrix

    The next time you see someone of Muslim background say hello, smile and start a conversation.

    I hope no one gets beheaded following Denis’ advice.

  97. Greigoz

    Nice Update you just added Sinc.

    Only Getup! or Christine Milne could have outdone you there.

  98. Insert Name

    The KKK comparison is intellectually dishonest for obvious reasons and doesn’t stand up to the barest scrutiny.

    The closest comparison is probably the 30 Years’ War – which was 400 years ago, and not justified at all by the participants’ holy book.

  99. Gab

    I think the anti semitism is deeply ingrained and of course the koran is blatant in requiring muslims to kill Jews.

    yes, it begins at a very young age with parents indoctrinating their children with hate against Jews. Much like the KKK members continue to do with their young against black people.

  100. Sinclair Davidson

    Bottom line, this is a Muslim problem, that can only be fixed by the Muslim community.

    Yes – there is a problem. Islam as a religion is struggling to come to terms with modernity. Judaism and Christianity have had similar problems. The solution is not one that can only be fixed by the Muslim community. People help their friends in time of difficulty.

    Main streaming and bourgeois respectability are the keys to any solution.

    At the same time I have no doubt that Muslim community leadership are cooperating with the authorities.

  101. phil

    Hah. Looks like working in a uni has finally taken its toll on Sinc.

    You want to compare with the KKK?
    How many people have they killed in the last few years?
    How many police have they stabbed in the last week?
    When was the last time a KKK member was arrested for plotting to kill someone, resulting in a rally of 100 people in their support?
    when did the KKK have so much support that in pretty much every Christian country they had active groups murdering people?

  102. JakartaJaap

    The KKK photograph is an appalling piece of propaganda. The KKK were fervently anti-Roman Catholic, ant-Semitic and anti-Freemasonry – spitting image of Their ABC and the Filth.

  103. phil

    “At the same time I have no doubt that Muslim community leadership are cooperatg with the authorities.”

    Oh hahahaha, good one Sinc! You had us all wound up thinking you were serious. Well done.

  104. All been hit with the silly-stick I see.

    No.

    If we’re going to play comparisons, then I want to see Islam take the same steps that Christian denominations have done to DISTANCE THEMSELVES from evil within – in practical and real ways, like actively removing these people from their congregations, and handing them over to the civil authorities.

  105. Gab

    Islam as a religion is struggling to come to terms with modernity.

    The religion apparently had no trouble with coming to terms with modernity in the 60s and 70s across the Middle East and then things changed and it was back to the 7th century for the religion.

  106. C.L.

    Good Lord. According to the Update, ADF personnel, police, captured journalists, Israel, citizens of New York, Boston, London, Bali, Mumbai and the Middle East are under attack from … the Ku Klux Klan.

  107. Sinclair Davidson

    Fair point Philippa – do you know that isn’t happening?

  108. People help their friends in time of difficulty.

    Islamic authorities utterly reject the ‘help’ of kuffar, because we are kuffar, and we Don’t Understand.

    Fine. I won’t intrude. But until they start publicly cleaning up their act – and their congregations – I won’t listen to any bullshit about ”backlash”.

  109. Mick of Brisbane

    Yep, we all know that the majority are not extremists and don’t share their nutty views, but it is such a concern when peak Islamic bodies seem to be apologists to the extreme. A very big concern.

    If these leaders could take a stand and recognise the nutters for what they are without blaming the West then they would be appealing to our common humanity in a two way street kinda way.

  110. EB

    Was streaming 2GB earlier, I nearly soiled my pants. Went to the daily telegraph and I started hyperventilating. I needed some fresh air to compose myself.

    I went outside for a stroll.

    The sun was out. The surf was breaking. The birds were chirping. I didn’t get my head chopped off.

    Like every other day I’ve experienced in Australia.

  111. Makka

    “It wrong, it unfair, it is immoral.”

    No. It’s not wrong, nor immoral. It’s valuing our way of life, over sharia. It’s simply recognizing those who oppose your existence and taking logical steps to oppose their proliferation. What is wrong is to appease those whose beliefs call for your extermination. History has shown you and I that.

  112. eb

    Sinc, Muslim is not a race! It is an ideology.

    Re-work your last sentence but put Communist instead of Muslim and see how silly it is.

  113. Condemn terrorists and criminals, let the law enforcement agencies enforce the law, but to condemn people for simply being Muslim, or [insert random group of people here] is wrong.

    Absolutely.
    What is the point of verballing using fear and violence in a situation which is already the product of hate? A sane individual attempts at least, to calm the situation. A psychopath inflames it.
    There are those of course, the conflict entrepreneurs, the whores amongst the commentariat, who make a living of selling this addictive drug. They need to be held responsible should the situation worsen.
    Didn’t we learn anything from Cronulla?

  114. Fair point Philippa – do you know that isn’t happening?

    Can’t see it, Sinc, so it may as well not be happening …

    Australians need to SEE THIS HAPPENING to believe it. Much in the same way that Australians need to see Catholic priest paedophiles doing the perp walk.

  115. James of the Glen

    “All been hit with the silly-stick I see.”

    Except thee?

  116. Alfonso

    Makka nails it.

    “The religion of Islam, it’s teachings , it’s followers are committed to some extent or other to displacing the infidels and their laws. According to Islam, this can be achieved by submission or by elimination. Islam wants imposition of sharia. Those are the facts.

    Smiling friendly moslems aside, every moslem believes in this , whether they enable it or not. Your article above exhorts us to reach out to our would be conquerors. You may not realise it but we, the Christian West, are in a struggle to keep our way of life intact. The wars going on in the ME are the overt battles. The more important battle IMO is the one being waged right here- in the blogs and media of the West. For the hearts and minds of everyday people. Because it is us, voters, who will either allow Islam to grow in our midst or halt that cancer.

    You have chosen to be with the appeasers. So be it. There are however those who won’t give in to the false comfort of appeasement , like me. Islam wants to take away my way of life. Islam wants us changed. The way I see it if enough Australians reject Islam here, that will be prevented. I reject Islam and this Govts capitulation in not naming this enemy in our society is vile. I wont be reaching out to Islam”.

  117. feelthebern

    Main streaming and bourgeois respectability are the keys to any solution.

    I look forward to your similar comments on p***[email protected]_-le priests.
    FFS.
    This is mumbo jumbo worthy of Longstaff.

  118. Roger

    Re you latest updtae, Sinc: what an inane comparison.

    I trust you;re a better economist than you are a theologian.

    Why do so many people think these people represent Muslims?

    OK, I’ll bite.

    Here’s my three main reasons:

    1) Because their holy book exhorts to armed warfare in service of their religion (which the New Testament of Christians explicitly disavows)

    2) Because I don’t see mass rallies in Muslim societies decrying violence done in the name of Mohammed (which you certainly would see among Christians if the KKK rose to significance and committed acts of violence in the name of Jesus)

    3) Because surveys of the Islamic world indicate a broad sympathy with the aims and philosophy of ISIL (and surveys of the Christian world certainly don’t indicate any such wide support for the KKK),

    Of course, ISIL don’t represent all Muslims, but they are representative of a significant slice of Islam (no pun intended!), including, most worryingly, many young and disaffected Muslims in the West. The difference between ISIL and the Saudis, for example, is one of degree, not kind.

  119. Sinclair Davidson

    What is wrong is to appease those whose beliefs call for your extermination.

    Completely agree.

  120. harrys on the boat

    I appreciate what you are saying Sinc, but that is a fucking appalling comparison.

  121. stackja

    Sinclair Davidson
    #1460221, posted on September 26, 2014 at 11:24 am

    Muslims are being a disruptive influence. I do not know any other group being so disruptive.

    Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, is celebrated in 2014 from sundown on September 24 to nightfall on September 26.

    Why are we not being influenced to observe Rosh Hashanah? Many people do not observe Christian holy days but we not being influenced to observe them. Muslims are the problem as their Quran is a disruptive influence. Mu?ammad for what ever reason terrorised what we call the Middle East and Mu?ammad still influences others to terrorise today.

  122. C.L.

    See Hitler’s Willing Executioners – whose thesis was not that every German gassed or butchered Jews but that they silently approved of their countrymen doing so.

    Still waiting, Dot. Daniel Goldhagen was wrong or – or – my analogy is unassailably perfect.

    And if it is – it is – this is enormously consequential as regards alliances with fictitious “moderates.”

    GO!

  123. Tal

    Well they all wear sheets and quilt covers,hard to tell them apart really

  124. Mr Rusty

    Cat is broken again, seems to be redirecting to Facebook since the last update.

  125. Didn’t we learn anything from Cronulla?

    Ah yes. That riot where peaceful Muslim Australians were just walking about minding their own business, when they were set upon by a violent mob of racist Australians who tried to kill them for absolutely no reason at all. Just like that.

  126. Sinclair Davidson

    that is a fucking appalling comparison

    Yes – it is. But shock often has good educational value.

  127. Sinclair Davidson

    See Hitler’s Willing Executioners

    I read that book too – it was a crap. Why are you bringing it up? In fact on the basis of that hatchet-job, you should be agreeing with me.

  128. Giffy

    “….I have no doubt that Muslim community leadership are co-operating…..”

    That brings to mind the words of Arthur Sinodinos, who wrote, a few years ago in The Australian, that he knew that all Muslims here share the same values as the rest of the citizens.
    He, too, claimed to have no doubt.
    He “knew”.

    So, no.
    No visiting mosques
    No conversations

  129. Adrian

    yeah that is a very silly comparison. The KKK was not a religious movement, it rose out of the US Civil War.

  130. Talleyrand

    From last weeks Media Watch dog, Gerard Henderson writes:

    Nicholas Reece offered his thought-for-the-night. Here it is:

    Nicholas Reece:” Clearly it was a huge police operation. 800 – police involved. That is unprecedented, I believe. I mean, as for these sort of ISIL (Islamist State in Syria and the Levant) guys in Sydney. I kind of think of ISIL to Islam as being like the Ku Klux Klan is to Christianity. And just as these ISIL guys, you know, don’t represent what Islam stands for as a faith – nor does the Ku Klux Klan stand for what Christianity really is as a faith. So just as you wouldn’t go soft touch on the Ku Klux Klan, I think you don’t go in soft against these ISIL guys.”

    God only knows what Mr Reece teaches his students at Melbourne University about “THESE ISIL GUYS”.
    But his comments on Paul Murray Live last night were hopelessly wrong. Here are some facts:

    ? ISIL or ISIS or IS (the so-called Islamic State) advocates the imposition of Sharia Law. In other words, IS acknowledges no division between religion and politics and regards itself as a religious organisation.

    ? Currently IS controls large parts of Syria and Iraq.

    ? Contrary to Nicholas Reece’s claim, the KKK was never a Christian church or a Christian organisation. Nor did it even control large parts of the United States. Moreover, the KKK did not claim to be a religion. Rather, the KKK was a secular organisation which advocated discrimination against African-Americans, many of whom were Christians. Moreover, the KKK was both anti-semitic and anti-Catholic.

    ? It may not be fashionable to say so at Melbourne University. However, ISIL is a significant, albeit minority, part of the Sunni Muslim faith. ISIL is currently fighting a religious war aimed at the so-called kafirs – including Sh’ia Muslims, Christians and Jews.

    That photo KKK meme has been doing the rounds of Facebook and twitter. It is a faulty argument Sync, and offensive to Christianity. When the Pope starts skyping with Opus Dei members and orders them to kill, I will revisist your meme.

  131. Sinclair Davidson

    Australians need to SEE THIS HAPPENING to believe it. Much in the same way that Australians need to see Catholic priest paedophiles doing the perp walk.

    Yes – I understand. We have been seeing this in the last couple of days.

    Australians did see criminals (former priests) doing the perp walk. Why we still have commissions and inquiries I don;t know.

  132. stackja

    Philippa Martyr
    #1460251, posted on September 26, 2014 at 11:36 am
    Fair point Philippa – do you know that isn’t happening?

    Can’t see it, Sinc, so it may as well not be happening …

    Australians need to SEE THIS HAPPENING to believe it. Much in the same way that Australians need to see Catholic priest paedophiles doing the perp walk.

    Pope removes Paraguayan bishop who shielded priest abuser
    Published: 26 September 2014

    Where the imams being removed?

  133. TBear

    Sinc: sorry to say this, but I think you may have, with this one post, undermined a lot of your legacy.

    I respectfully suggest you reconsider and acknowledge the genuine and well supported concerns of many who have commented on this post.

    This issue is a local working out of the Clash of Civilizations, ala S.P. Huntington. It is far more serious than can be caught by some fluffy/motherhood “let’s reach our and find our common values” op-ed by a Catholic Bishop.

    It is grossly insulting to our collective intelligence that you would seemingly so suggest.

  134. Sinclair Davidson

    It is a faulty argument Sync, and offensive to Christianity.

    As are the arguments about and against Muslims.

    Wake up to yourselves people. Have some self awareness.

  135. .

    At one point the KKK did represent Christians

    There are many practicing and lapsed Catholics on this blog. As a non church goer, I still find this not only offensively dumb but just absurd.

    The KKK cooked up their own whacko version of Methodism which was virulently anti Catholic.

  136. Infidel Tiger

    If the Facebook postings I see from usually peace, love and harmony young sheilas are any guide, the Muzzie community better catch the express train to the 18th century pretty quick.

    The same people who are demanding marriage equality are now demanding mass deportations.

  137. Makka

    “Completely agree.”

    The you should reconsider your comparing our absolute right to maintain our way of life with the actions of the appalling KK, as you have done above.

    Reconsider this please Sinc. I know that Update is not representative of your views but for so many it will seem so.

  138. Infidel Tiger

    Didn’t we learn anything from Cronulla?

    One of the great days in Australia history.

    Don’t mess with our sheilas.

  139. Snoopy

    That’s strange. I thought the Negroes were the Christians.

  140. stackja

    Sinclair Davidson
    #1460270, posted on September 26, 2014 at 11:42 am
    Australians need to SEE THIS HAPPENING to believe it. Much in the same way that Australians need to see Catholic priest paedophiles doing the perp walk.

    Yes – I understand. We have been seeing this in the last couple of days.

    Australians did see criminals (former priests) doing the perp walk. Why we still have commissions and inquiries I don;t know.

    Julia needed a diversion so created the abuse commission. Like Julia needed a diversion and created the sports commission. If someone breaks a law put them before a court. Just stop all these silly diversions.

  141. notafan

    There doesn’t seem to be much discussion of islamic beliefs in the attached paper about Australian jihadists but the fact that islam encompasses the concept of jihad is probably the root cause of the problem. Some apologists talk about defensive jihad and this appears to motivate some, Junaid Thorn was talking up rape of women by Jews and Christians as a way of getting muslims to defend other muslims to take action.
    Uthman Badar rejects ‘defensive jihad’ , his most recent facebook posting clearly state this position and in his youtube talk at the 2012 conference earlier offensive wars by muslims as described as wars of liberation, though I’m sure when almost the entire population of Constantinople were slaughtered they felt very liberated.

    and here an an article on Australian jihadists

  142. .

    Sinclair Davidson
    #1460266, posted on September 26, 2014 at 11:41 am
    See Hitler’s Willing Executioners

    I read that book too – it was a crap. Why are you bringing it up? In fact on the basis of that hatchet-job, you should be agreeing with me.

    Please inform C.L. that no serious historian takes the total guilt thesis seriously.

  143. hzhousewife

    I support the separation of Church and State and resist it’s breakdown.

  144. Driftforge

    Yes – it is. But shock often has good educational value.

    Both images illustrate that people will attempt to preserve their way of life, in their own place, and will do unconscionable things when they believe it is under threat.

    Which is the exact opposite to what is happening in Australia.

  145. Australians did see criminals (former priests) doing the perp walk. Why we still have commissions and inquiries I don;t know.

    Whole ‘nother issue.

    But the principle is the same: those who allowed it to happen in their midst are the ones who are primarily responsible for cleaning it up. It would give the community credibility, and allay a lot of people’s fears about the enemy within.

    The utterly lame-arse response so far from Islamic leadership here gives precisely the opposite impression – compare it with Catholic denialism in high places in the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s. Denial/lack of strong condemnation and equivalent actions absolutely reeks of complicity.

  146. Snoopy

    Didn’t we learn anything from Cronulla?

    Yes, a mob of Muslims can get away with anything.

  147. C.L.

    “Moderate” Muslims want Israel to be exterminated.

    This is a fact. It cannot be denied.

    “Moderate” Muslims agitate for it in the UN hundreds of times a year.

    The Ku Klux Klan is not represented in the UN.

  148. Driftforge

    Didn’t we learn anything from Cronulla?

    There is hope for us yet.

  149. goatjam

    TA is still pushing the “this is a war on terrorism, not a war on religion” line.

    As for the Klan picture give me strength. The Klansmen don’t have a religious book with a international following that they are bound to adhere to which tells them that anybody who does not submit to and live by the rules in that book must be killed.

    Just to be clear, most intelligence services put the percentage of Muslims that are considered to be “radical” at 25%.

    That is hundreds of millions fanatical religious head choppers who want to kill us.

    A few Krazy Klansmen simply do not compare.

    It really is that simple.

    I cannot understand these people pushing the “not all muslims” line. When IS commit atrocities you hear nary a peep from the so-called moderates. On the other hand when you have a muslim killed after trying to stab a copper to death you get those same moderates calling for “an unbiased inquiry in to the tragic death of a young man”

    That tells me all I need to know about “moderate” muslims.

  150. Sinclair Davidson

    Sinc: sorry to say this, but I think you may have, with this one post, undermined a lot of your legacy.

    1. I’m not dead yet – so plenty of time to establish myself as a journeyman economist who hates taxes and big government.
    2. My legacy is going to be “he ran a libertarian centre-right website where free speech was tolerated and encouraged” not “people could say anything they liked without fear of contradiction”.

  151. Roger

    As are the arguments about and against Muslims.
    Wake up to yourselves people. Have some self awareness.

    I believe you’ve just committed the logical fallacy of petitio principii – assuming your initial point that Islam is a peaceful religion compatible with post-Enlightenment Western culture. Make your case before you suggest we “wake up” from our supposed delusion, Sinc.

  152. Bruce

    What sinc is trying to say is that Catholics aren’t Christians. He seems to be supported in this bizarre view by none other than the failed would-be draft dodger. Strange bedfellows indeed.

  153. cynical1

    A few Southern state Klansmen vs AQ, Boko Harum, Hezbollah, Hamas, Abu Sayev, ISIS, etc etc.

    Problems in Africa, Asia, The US, Australia etc etc.

    That’s some moral equivalence.

    In fact, it’s ridiculous.

    Here’s another for you.

    Rotherham vs Rolf Harris….

  154. incoherent rambler

    In answer to Sinclairs question:

    The major differences are the second group uses religion as its excuse for murder and is largely funded and staffed by its religiously trained base in this country and others.
    I am not sure that the first group ever expressed a desire for world domination or a desire to remove a country from the map.

  155. C.L.

    Please inform C.L. that no serious historian takes the total guilt thesis seriously.

    Dot hasn’t even read the book.

    See Hitler’s Willing Executioners – whose thesis was not that every German gassed or butchered Jews but that they silently approved of their countrymen doing so.

    The analogy with “moderate” Islam is perfect.

    This cannot be denied – as even a cursory reading of UN documents and recent statements from Australia’s Muslim “community leaders” makes crystal clear.

  156. goatjam

    Not to mention the constant veiled threats of a backlash if we don’t submit to their demands.

  157. Michaelc58

    Sinclair, you really have been captured by the Muslim narrative of them being the poor, oppressed, misunderstood minority, about to be wiped out, even as they spread all around the world and slowly Islamify our cultures.

    Your KKK analogy is idiotic – like those we see from leftards in debates. There is absolutely no comparison.

    Militant Islam is a global phenomenon.

    There is a hundred different Islamic terrorist organizations, killing non-believers for decades now.

    In many surveys, a sizeable proportion like a quarter to half of Muslims in any population sympathises with ideas we find abhorrent, like honor killings, death for apostacy, stoning and wanting separatist sharia law above the country’s laws.

    And the silent moderate majority doesn’t count. It didn’t in 1939, it didn’t in the soviet 60’s and it doesn’t in Iraq, Syria and every other Muslim country.

    If you think Islam is such a nice political religion, name a few Islamic countries we would like to become like – any time in their history.

    Read the Quran, learn about the religion, its opinion about non-believers, and its ambitions.
    And then come and teach us morality.

  158. Indigo

    A bit of green/left moral equivalence that doesn’t stand up. Again, trying to discount the Islamic threat to western culture and way of life. Worthy of the ABC – you will be invited on Q&A soon.

  159. Sinclair Davidson

    Not to mention the constant veiled threats of a backlash if we don’t submit to their demands.

    any numpty can makes demands – if and when they break the law, you arrest them.

  160. Megan

    Small minorities of extremists can control much bigger numbers of moderates, which makes them irrelevant. On my visit to the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem last year I took note of the fact that the Nazi Party had only 2 million members when it came to power in 1933…around 3% of the population.

    And yet it managed to attract, mobilise and control around sixty-six million to do its bidding with only minimal resistance which was swiftly and brutally dealt with. And oh, yes the Pope was issuing similar “love thy neighbour” homilies from the safety of his Vatican palace.

  161. .

    See Hitler’s Willing Executioners – whose thesis was not that every German gassed or butchered Jews but that they silently approved of their countrymen doing so.

    This is merely the total guilt thesis. It is demonstrably bullshit.

  162. Tom

    There has been a very nasty and very ugly anti-Muslim sentiment creep into the comments and I don’t like it.

    It wrong, it unfair, it is immoral.

    Sinc, is the motivation for this post the fact that you work with muslims, who you find are good people, and you can’t understand why good people are being demonised? It sounds like it.

    The correct question to ask, therefore, is why so few Australians have relationships with muslims.

    As a kid, I went to boarding school with black, brown and brindle kids from everywhere, which was then a rare experience. Differences were quickly melted by personal relationships.

    The fact that non-English-speaking immigrants are now allowed — and actually encouraged — to live together in socially isolated ghettos screams at me that it is a massive national policy error. Integrating into Australia means not only learning the language, but learning and accepting the new culture and leaving old blood feuds behind.

    Instead, “multiculturism” in this country, under the mismanagement of do-gooders and social engineers, has become a breeding ground for separatism. New policy settings are urgently required.

    To demonise ordinary citizens for having legitimate fears for their own safety is disgraceful.

  163. Genuine and well-supported concerns?

    the genuine and well supported concerns of many who have commented on this post.

    Tintarella di Luna
    #1458114, posted on September 24, 2014 at 8:13 pm

    I guess Numan Haider will be a shoe-in for the Darwin awards

    None
    #1457128, posted on September 24, 2014 at 12:17 am

    They shot him dead. Accounts so far say one shot. Great shooting boys. Speedy recovery to the injured. And yes let’s start publicising the expected reaction from ABC, Greens, the Islamic Council and even idiot child Lleyonjhelm. Might as well save time.

    Hendrix
    #1457292, posted on September 24, 2014 at 5:51 am

    Blair headline “knife brought to gun fight”. Heh.

    It is grossly insulting to our collective intelligence that you would seemingly so suggest.

    Collective intelligence?

    Alfonso
    #1457326, posted on September 24, 2014 at 6:48 am

    Nice shooting….tho internal affairs needs to discipline the copper for not doubling up.
    Ammo is relatively cheap.

    Newbie
    #1457483, posted on September 24, 2014 at 9:13 am

    “Cold…real cold.”

    He is now …

  164. Ellen of Tasmania

    Condemn terrorists and criminals, let the law enforcement agencies enforce the law, but to condemn people for simply being Muslim, or [insert random group of people here] is wrong.

    I absolutely agree. But we are still going to face a problem if we continue to think that we can comfortably mix the Islamic religion with our western democracy. As I said above, most western Muslims are just sitting in the carriage, but the train is on a track and it’s going somewhere. We know where it goes because we have other countries that are majority Muslim to see and learn from.

    Ditto for cultural marxism and socialism.

  165. C.L.

    Dot was sheltering in “all” and now he’s hiding behind “total.”

    Let’s try again.

    See Hitler’s Willing Executioners – whose thesis was not that every German gassed or butchered Jews but that they silently approved of their countrymen doing so.

    The analogy with “moderate” Islam is perfect.

    This cannot be denied – as even a cursory reading of UN documents and recent statements from Australia’s Muslim “community leaders” makes crystal clear.

    GO!

  166. stackja

    Sinclair Davidson
    #1460301, posted on September 26, 2014 at 11:52 am
    Not to mention the constant veiled threats of a backlash if we don’t submit to their demands.

    any numpty can makes demands – if and when they break the law, you arrest them.

    And the ALP/MSM insist on a mild treatment of some and harsh of others.

  167. Makka

    “if and when they break the law, you arrest them.”

    This is bullshit. It’s THE false argument in all this.

    “They shouldn’t be touched or vilified unless they break the law.”

    Our Govt has now recommended ADF personnel not wear the uniforms of our Armed Forces in public. No laws broken. No physical victims with that request. Yet, we are changed as a Nation. Completely changed – from being proud to see our people in ADF uniform to being fearful for their safety because they represent our defense.

    Sinc, dont you get it? Islam wants to change you and our country. Bit by bit, day by day. You are enabling that effort here. By appeasing them and their beliefs.

  168. Roger

    Here’s a slice of Muslim opinion in February, 2009, courtesy a research team at the University of Maryland
    76 percent of Pakistanis want strict sharia in every Islamic country.
    76 percent of Moroccans want strict sharia in every Islamic country.
    90 percent of Palestinians support killing American troops in Iraq.
    83 percent of Egyptians support killing American troops in Iraq.
    68 percent of Moroccans support killing American troops in Iraq.
    40 percent in Turkey support killing American troops in Iraq.
    83 percent of Egyptians support killing American troops in Afghanistan.
    61 percent of Moroccans support killing American troops in Afghanistan.
    78 percent of Palestinians have “positive” or “mixed” feelings towards Bin Laden.
    69 percent of Egyptians have “positive” or “mixed” feelings towards Bin Laden.
    53 percent of Moroccans have “positive” or “mixed” feelings towards Bin Laden.
    51 percent of Pakistanis have “positive” or “mixed” feelings towards Bin Laden.

    Not a definitive survey of the Moslem world, perhaps, but it strongly suggests that moderate Muslim opinion is a distinct minority in that world.

  169. Sinclair Davidson

    Sinclair, you really have been captured by the Muslim narrative of them being the poor, oppressed, misunderstood minority, about to be wiped out, even as they spread all around the world and slowly Islamify our cultures.

    Quite the contrary. I do not care if they are poor, oppressed, or misunderstood. I have confidence that our own civilisation – that consumer culture – will prevail over all others. Liberal democracy does not judge and condemn people for their faith or values but for their behaviours. Until people actually break the law (our laws) they should be free to live their lives in peace. This is the basis of our civilisation.

  170. stackja

    I see the usual suspect has commented.

  171. .

    The total guilt thesis is bullshit. It is a tool of totalitarians and preachers of hate.

  172. whyisitso

    I’ve noted the update. I’ve also noted Davidson following the Malcolm Fraser projectory towards leftism in recent months. There are other blog precedents including Harry Clarke and Andrew Sullivan.

    What makes a man change so dramatically like this?

  173. Sinclair Davidson

    Makka – no. You have pointed to the problem when you use the term “Our govt”.

  174. stackja

    Sinclair Davidson
    #1460311, posted on September 26, 2014 at 12:00 pm

    Sinclair, you really have been captured by the Muslim narrative of them being the poor, oppressed, misunderstood minority, about to be wiped out, even as they spread all around the world and slowly Islamify our cultures.

    Quite the contrary. I do not care if they are poor, oppressed, or misunderstood. I have confidence that our own civilisation – that consumer culture – will prevail over all others. Liberal democracy does not judge and condemn people for their faith or values but for their behaviours. Until people actually break the law (our laws) they should be free to live their lives in peace. This is the basis of our civilisation.

    Sinc, we used to live our lives in peace. What happened? A strange influence gained adherents.

  175. Roger

    Liberal democracy does not judge and condemn people for their faith or values but for their behaviours.

    In one sense -the strictly legal sense- this is true, but we ignore the nexus between faith/values and behaviours at our peril. This is why, after the war, the Allies introduced a de-Nazification program in German society.

  176. I completely agree with you, CL, re triangulation.

  177. notafan

    By the way
    Even though Muslims are killing raping and enslaving Catholic Christians in Syria, Iraq and Nigeria, to name a few places, Catholics don’t leave home and start fighting muslims in those countries and they certainly don’t attack muslims and try to kill them in this country.

    This is jihad a central tenet of islam.

    As long as jihad is part of islam then we will be wary of islamic pushes for concessions as well, not helped by the violence overseas and the constant threats of violence here.

    Don’t do anything to terror suspects here or more youth with radicalise is the only tune we hear.

    Muslims in the public arena on the one hand say islamic state is not the caliphate because they don’t agree that el-bagdadi is the true caliph but at the same time claim Australia and other western countries who have answered the call from the legitimate government of Iraq are invaders.

    Muslim leaders have spent minimal effort on condemning acts of terrorism here in Australia, rather making outrageous excuses for Numan Haider and maximum effort on screaming about backlash over some verbal slurs and a little paint, the paint btw looking suspiciously self inflicted.

    Other than some comments by self appointed community leader Jamal Rifi (another anti Zionist BTW) what have we heard?

  178. Bill

    The KKK hated blacks, jews, masons, catholics and northerners. They very regularly burnt crucifixes and churches, especially black Baptist churches.

    Calling the KKK Christian is the sort of thing Naomi Klein would say.

  179. Woolfe

    any numpty can makes demands – if and when they break the law, you arrest them.

    After they have removed some poor souls head?

    Am no scholar or great intellect but to me Islam needs to move out of 6th century and remove the reference to head lopping from their manual. And this can only come from their religious leader who is….???

  180. stackja

    Sinclair Davidson
    #1460315, posted on September 26, 2014 at 12:01 pm
    Makka – no. You have pointed to the problem when you use the term “Our govt”.

    We have a government that is not been allowed to govern because of the influence of the Left on the MSM creating a hysteria.

  181. Greigoz

    I think that the general public is not fooled anymore. The Fairfax/ABC/Sinc blanket suppression statement of ‘You’re all just intolerant bigots’, is not washing like it used to.

    The moderates are not helping us or themselves, as they know their more agitated youth, don’t agree or listen to them. If they even just asked for our freaking help, I’d be happy. But no, instead, they simply tell us it’s our fault, as their heat and aggression rises ever more.

    I (now) prefer Philippa’s thread over Sinc here. http://philippamartyr.blogspot.com.au/

  182. Sinclair Davidson

    We have a government that is not been allowed to govern because of the influence of the Left on the MSM creating a hysteria.

    … and we criticise the left and MSM here every day.

  183. Alfonso

    ‘Nice shooting….tho internal affairs needs to discipline the copper for not doubling up.
    Ammo is relatively cheap’.

    Indeed Numbers, anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice, “there’s no additional paperwork for shooting the SOB twice”. Bullets are cheap life is expensive …..you get my drift.

    Still, you’ll be pleased with the successful outcome.

  184. Sinclair Davidson

    After they have removed some poor souls head?

    conspiracy to commit murder is a crime too.

  185. goatjam

    Not to mention the constant veiled threats of a backlash if we don’t submit to their demands.

    any numpty can makes demands – if and when they break the law, you arrest them.

    Yes, because that worked so well in Rotherham.

    Oh, hold on, no it didn’t. We were so busy being concerned about hurting the feelings of so-called moderate muslims that we turned a blind eye to their “cultural differences”

    If muslims came to this country, stepped into the 21st century and put all that sharia/jihad crap behind them then nobody would have a problem. There is a reason that nobody here is speaking out about Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists you know. We are not against religion, but we do recognise the danger in the doctrine of this particular religion because it literally says that we deserve to die. What you are doing Sinclair, is hoping that the followers of that religion do not interpret their religious text literally despite the fact that there are vast numbers of them even now who do in fact do that.

    The whole argument is ridiculous.

  186. .

    There is no “triangulation”, depsite how imaginative you are today, dover.

    cohenite thinks ALL Muslims are morally equivalent to Nazis.

    C.L. amped up this stupidity with the historically and factually incorrect “total guilt thesis” and equated all Germans with Nazis as well, and then said Muslims are basically the same as nazi era Germans.

    You’re actually blaming the victim in some circumstances. A liberal Muslim might get executed in Iran for holding or pushing views the regime dislikes.

    You and C.L. however blame them, asserting that the moral equivalence cohenite agreed to last night is actually true under all circumstances.

    This is so unspeakably stupid.

  187. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    I should be pleased Catallaxy does comic relief pieces from time to time.

    We can’t be tense all the while about threats we must regard seriously.

    I first noticed in the late ’60s that this lot were a problem. That hasn’t abated in any way since, their murder tally has increased year on year and I didn’t need academic soothsayers or my parish priest to obfuscate what my eyes could see.

    There is no “common humanity” with those who would subjugate and kill me, which itself is a “difference worth condemning”.

    Maintain a cautious, suspicious and ever watchful distance, I say. They should not be here.

  188. Gab

    I cannot understand these people pushing the “not all muslims” line. When IS commit atrocities you hear nary a peep from the so-called moderates. On the other hand when you have a muslim killed after trying to stab a copper to death you get those same moderates calling for “an unbiased inquiry in to the tragic death of a young man”

    That tells me all I need to know about “moderate” muslims.

    The problem is the self-appointed community leaders are the extremists and radicals and the press gives them a willing hearing, including the mufti and imams. Show me one Islamic Council or one Islamic religious leader who is not an extremist. These community leaders do not represent ALL muslims, despite advertising themselves as such and despite the press, the Left and politicians buying into their extremist and radical hype.

    The loudest voices from the muslim community in Australia are the Leftist muslims and the bogans of the muslim community. The conservative muslims go about their life in peace and, sadly, in silence, expecting non-muslims to be the voices for them. Meanwhile, the government, the ADF, academics are just so fearful of muslim backlash, of being called ‘racists’ and bigots and of being non-pc, they bend over forwards to appease these loud extremists, which in the end does nothing to strengthen and support the moderates who do not want to see sharia law in Australia (in an official capacity, it already exits unofficially) and who do actually abhor the Islamic State.

    And all this craziness over 3% of the population. Doesn’t say much for the strength and presence of Western values today when Islam all too easily converts those in power, in our judicial system, in academia, in the media, in the Catholic Church, to become their useful idiots.

  189. Demosthenes

    See Rosemary’s comment abstracted above for examples of how Muslims in Australia have improperly pursued aggression not peace

    All Rosemary showed was she only remembers Australian Muslims protesting things that affected Australian Muslims, and not protesting things that had nothing to do with them.

    and how they have deliberately eschewed moral responsibility for their the end result of some of their Imans and Koranic texts.

    Impossible, double standard. You’re saying law-abiding Australian Muslims should take “moral responsibility” for the actions of criminal scum on the other side of the world with a different take on a shared holy book? This should be satire, but alas it is not.

    Update: I see some very strong views in the thread. Very disappointing.

    “Well, Mr President, people do have a right to be bigots, you know.”

  190. Driftforge

    Another parallel can be drawn between leftists and Islam.

    Democracy inherently enables this creeping loss. Anti-discrimination legislation accelerates it. The Non Aggression Principle prevents us from dealing with it

    The invasive aggression is couched in victim-hood and is diffuse, hard to note on a personal level. The pervasive response is necessarily powerful, and concentrated and unmistakable personally.

    Simple and effective response to this is to permit Islam the time and ‘main streaming and bourgeois respectability’ to become a ‘modernized’ religion — and then, and only then, permit it here.

  191. Senile Old Guy

    From the Qudrant article linked above:

    It is that narrow, literalist authoritarianism and those worrying features of the Islamic faith tradition that modern Australian Muslims need to distance themselves from and explicitly repudiate. And they will not do so, since they will feel no need or obligation to do so, if our political leaders (such as the Attorney-General in his recently proffered and fashionable bromide) endorse and encourage them in that same intellectually lazy and politically evasive — and historically altogether simplistic — affirmation that “Islam is a religion of peace”.

  192. Snoopy

    any numpty can makes demands – if and when they break the law, you arrest them.

    That moderate Muslims exist is self evident, simply because humans are ‘imperfect’. However such people need to be encouraged by the laws of the land. eg
    Ban the burka
    Prohibit Islamic banking
    Prosecute polygamy
    No increase in family benefits beyond the third child
    Remedy whatever failing in the law prevents Juniad Thorne and others like him from being arrested
    Remove ‘to become a religious leader’ (priest, vicar, imam etc) as a reason for immigration
    End family reunion
    Further limit welfare benefits paid to Australian resident o/s
    Review all recipients of the DP to reduce fraud
    Strike off doctors who have enabled DP fraud

  193. stackja

    Sinclair Davidson
    #1460325, posted on September 26, 2014 at 12:08 pm

    We have a government that is not been allowed to govern because of the influence of the Left on the MSM creating a hysteria.

    … and we criticise the left and MSM here every day.

    And having little effect on the Left MSM hysteria.

  194. Small minorities of extremists can control much bigger numbers of moderates, which makes them irrelevant. On my visit to the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem last year I took note of the fact that the Nazi Party had only 2 million members when it came to power in 1933…around 3% of the population.

    And yet it managed to attract, mobilise and control around sixty-six million to do its bidding with only minimal resistance which was swiftly and brutally dealt with. And oh, yes the Pope was issuing similar “love thy neighbour” homilies from the safety of his Vatican palace.

    Yes, and the parallels between the rise of Nazi extremism in pre-war Germany and Islamiphobia here are clear and stark –
    A clearly identifiable “other” to demonize – check.
    A range of bizarre myths attributing atrocious behavior to all members of this group – check.
    Thugs and criminals intimidating clearly identifiable individuals in the street – check.

  195. Gab

    C.L. amped up this stupidity with the historically and factually incorrect “total guilt thesis” and equated all Germans with Nazis as well

    True, the Nazis were a minority and as time passed they became the majority and that worked out really well too for the Jews.

  196. twostix

    Quite the contrary. I do not care if they are poor, oppressed, or misunderstood. I have confidence that our own civilisation – that consumer culture – will prevail over all others.

    How when people who critisise Islam and muslims and their shitty religion are denounced and threatened by supposed lovers of liberty?

    I mean, how does this particular post help to ensure that “liberal democracy” will prevail over Islam? By telling people who critisice islam to Shut Up because KKK?

  197. Driftforge

    Doesn’t say much for the strength and presence of Western values today when Islam all too easily converts those in power, in our judicial system, in academia, in the media, in the Catholic Church, to become their useful idiots.

    Exactly the same route that the left took.

  198. hzhousewife

    Muslims need a New Testament

  199. Makka

    “You have pointed to the problem when you use the term “Our govt”.”

    No – the Govt is not the only problem. The problem includes you and others like our Govt , who are appeasing the abhorrent belief system that wants to change our lives.

    Your naivety on this issue is stunning.

    “I have confidence that our own civilisation – that consumer culture – will prevail over all others. ”

    Prevail? So at least you recognize there is a struggle going on – a good start. My argument is that we have a right to be outraged that this struggle has been visited apon us. And that appeasers such as what we are seeing in this post of yours, will now only make that struggle more uncertain and arduous.

  200. Splatacrobat

    I think that the reason for the deafening silence from the (irrelevant) majority of “moderate” (read: secular) Muslims is that the fanatics have the Koran on their side – and the “moderates” know it. They might not want to personally practice everything that’s in there; but they know it’s there and they can’t bring themselves to come out and denounce it. Orwellian double-think, big time.

    That’s the truth of it +1
    Plenty of moderate Catholics were silent at the IRA’s antics. Irish American Catholics may have tut tutted when asked about the IRA but they were a major funding source for their operations. Todays Muslim moderates are the same as yesterdays IRA moderates but this time only on a larger scale. Double think is a necessary tool for both a totalitarian state and religious cults.

  201. There is no “triangulation”, depsite how imaginative you are today, dover.

    I was referring to this, dot:

    The Vatican has been triangulating a Catholic/Muslim voting bloc for several years now to defeat – or at least combat – various UN and other ‘initiatives’ relating to abortion, contraception and marriage. That’s why Denis Hart didn’t write an article when Jewish schools and individuals were being attacked in his very own city a couple of months ago. That’s why the entire Catholic Bishops Conference of Australia hasn’t said a thing about the extermination of Christians in the Middle East.

    I accept your heartfelt apology in advance.

  202. Driftforge

    Yes, and the parallels between the rise of Nazi extremism in pre-war Germany and Islamiphobia here are clear and stark

    Numbers is trying to rehabilitate our view of the Nazis…

  203. Sinclair Davidson

    I mean, how does this particular post help to ensure that “liberal democracy” will prevail over Islam?

    By living up to our values.

    By telling people who critisice islam to Shut Up because KKK?

    You actually heard or saw me say that?

  204. Bruce

    When exactly was the IRA violently active in Australia?

  205. goatjam

    The problem is the self-appointed community leaders are the extremists and radicals and the press gives them a willing hearing, including the mufti and imams.

    Fine, so all the moderate muslims have no representation.

    Why are they not organising alternate “councils” that better represent their moderate views?

    Why do they organise protests against police raids but none against the various atrocities committed by their fellow muslims in the name of their religion?

    Do the moderate muslims also follow the same religious text that teaches them that infidels should be killed?

    Are they duty bound to abide by that text, as well any orders that are issued by their religious leaders (the ones that apparently don’t represent them)?

    If there is really this huge undercurrent of moderation in the muslim community then why is it impossible to see?

  206. twostix

    See how this has worked?

    We’re now supposed to ignore the dozens of countries around the world that muslims run and operate which are all identical totalitarian shitholes full of violence and terror because somehow, god knows how, muslims have now managed to create an even worse faction than the ones currently in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.

    So now all of a sudden it’s all eyes on ISIS and it’s all Egypt stoning women to death who now? UAE imprisoning female rape victims what? Indonesians whipping gays when?

    “Well” smugly claim the urban elite “at least they’re not as bad as ISIS“.

  207. Gab

    I think that the reason for the deafening silence from the (irrelevant) majority of “moderate” (read: secular) Muslims is that the fanatics have the Koran on their side – and the “moderates” know it. They might not want to personally practice everything that’s in there; but they know it’s there and they can’t bring themselves to come out and denounce it.

    Very true. The Koran is not exactly a book of peace with all its many verses on how, when, where and why the faithful should convert or annihilate the kaffir if they are to get a place in heaven.

  208. Sinclair Davidson

    So at least you recognize there is a struggle going on

    there is always competition for ideas.

    What I find remarkable is that you have automatically assumed I am unaware of any nuance or complication. Why is that.

    Whyisitso at least argues that I have become a sell-out lefty. But he is old and grumpy. Why is it that the rest of you assume that too?

  209. Sinclair Davidson

    Anyway on that happy note – I have an appointment.

  210. Makka

    “Why is that.”

    Because of the insult you throw out with the Update above.

  211. C.L.

    76 percent of Pakistanis want strict sharia in every Islamic country.
    76 percent of Moroccans want strict sharia in every Islamic country.
    90 percent of Palestinians support killing American troops in Iraq.
    83 percent of Egyptians support killing American troops in Iraq.
    68 percent of Moroccans support killing American troops in Iraq.
    40 percent in Turkey support killing American troops in Iraq.
    83 percent of Egyptians support killing American troops in Afghanistan.
    61 percent of Moroccans support killing American troops in Afghanistan.
    78 percent of Palestinians have “positive” or “mixed” feelings towards Bin Laden.
    69 percent of Egyptians have “positive” or “mixed” feelings towards Bin Laden.
    53 percent of Moroccans have “positive” or “mixed” feelings towards Bin Laden.
    51 percent of Pakistanis have “positive” or “mixed” feelings towards Bin Laden.

    Wow. So that’s what the Tiny Minority looks like.

  212. Mater

    Supposing that the comparison is a fair one, my concern boils down to this.
    I would stand between the first group and their intended target. If the demographics in this country were reversed, would moderate muslims do the same to protect me from the second group?

  213. rebel with cause

    ISIS is clearly viewed as an Islamic State by most Muslims. So if you are a Muslim, and ISIS is Islamic, then why would you disagree with their practices?

    Contrast that with the KKK. Notwithstanding themselves, how many Christians considered the KKK to be Christian?

  214. .

    Ban the burka
    Prohibit Islamic banking
    Prosecute polygamy

    A veil isn’t necessarily Islamic.

    Islamic banking merely in practice, changes counter party risk and equity risk.

    There are many Mormons who are not FDLS who practice polygamy.

    What we don’t need is more laws.

  215. Newbie

    Seems the Jungle Warrior’s sensitivities have been unsettled. Relax O Fearless One, the departed Young Haider is sweating it up in the arms of his 72 virgins … allegedly … perhaps … maybe …

  216. .

    I accept your heartfelt apology in advance.

    Given freely too.

  217. C.L.

    See-ya, Sinclair.

    And remember we love you.

    And also that this is YOUR site and we respect the hell out of you.

    xo

  218. Splatacrobat

    Main streaming and bourgeois respectability are the keys to any solution.

    Yeah! Look how that’s turned out for the Church of England.

  219. cynical1

    conspiracy to commit murder is a crime too.

    No it’s not.

    It’s picking on the usual suspects.

    You only have to read some of the drivel regarding the latest really nice boy.

    The one who failed to slaughter two policemen…

  220. C.L.

    Sinclair should ban mention of Islam and Muslims for a month, though.

    Really.

    Too much. We’re all guilty.

  221. Gab

    Why are they not organising alternate “councils” that better represent their moderate views?

    Why do they organise protests against police raids but none against the various atrocities committed by their fellow muslims in the name of their religion?

    Do the moderate muslims also follow the same religious text that teaches them that infidels should be killed?

    Are they duty bound to abide by that text, as well any orders that are issued by their religious leaders (the ones that apparently don’t represent them)?

    If there is really this huge undercurrent of moderation in the muslim community then why is it impossible to see?

    Fear of reprisals and/or apathy and it is a sin to speak out and condemn your Islamic religion. The only way moderates will have a safe voice is when their “leaders” are themselves of the moderate variety. It has happened in the past when muslims were all too keen to imitate western life and values and then along came the likes of Khomeini and Islam underwent a reformation of sorts – back to the hardline ways available to them via the Koran and hadiths.

  222. Tom

    In research strangely unavailable in Australia:

    A French survey in Le Figaro showed that only 14 percent of the country’s estimated five million Muslims see themselves as “more French than Muslim.” Research made by the German Ministry of Interior shows that only 12 percent of Muslims living in Germany see themselves as more German than Muslim. A Danish survey published by the pro-Muslim pro-democratic organization Democratic Muslims led by the Danish PM and Muslim Naser Khader showed that only 14 percent of Muslims living in Denmark could identify themselves as “Democratic and Danish.”

    Australian media and academia are controlled by leftist activists. If the truth is ugly, you suppress the questions that might reveal it — unless it damages your political enemies, in which case it is encouraged. Truth was a casualty years ago because our betters are mental pygmies.

  223. Zippy The Younger

    Tough crowd, people on the open thread and here are calling all Muslims morally equivalent to the Nazis, which is obvious bullshit but good luck drumming sense into these people’s demented heads.

    No we are calling islam as an ideology and a meme the equivalent of Nazism. You need to learn to separate muslims who cling to the ideology from the meme they cling to. Nothing against any muslim so long as they are prepared to give up the ideology and assimilate to our freedoms and not us sacrificing our freedoms and rights to appease their non existent god and virulent meme carriers.

  224. stackja

    C.L.
    #1460370, posted on September 26, 2014 at 12:27 pm
    Sinclair should ban mention of Islam and Muslims for a month, though.

    Really.

    Too much. We’re all guilty.

    Ban any mention of religion, politics and sport.

  225. .

    Yes, and the parallels between the rise of Nazi extremism in pre-war Germany and Islamiphobia here are clear and stark –

    Shut up numbers. The people here may not be thinking clearly but they are not Nazis.

    However. You are an apologist for some of the worst and murderous regimes of the 20th century, you loyal little communist dogsbody.

  226. goatjam

    “Fear of reprisals and/or apathy and it is a sin to speak out and condemn your Islamic religion. “

    And that dear Gab, is why the whole idea of moderate muslims is nonsense. If they are not willing/able to stand up against the forces of evil, evil that is perpetrated daily in the name of their religion mind you, then they are completely irrelevant.

    Worse, they become part of the problem. Because if push comes to shove, they are duty bound to support the muslim side in any conflict.

    They have had complete and utter subservience to Islam and their “self appointed” religious leaders drummed into them since they day that they were born.

  227. .

    Nothing against any muslim so long as they are prepared to give up the ideology and assimilate to our freedoms and not us sacrificing our freedoms and rights to appease their non existent god and virulent meme carriers.

    We shouldn’t give up freedom for security either.

  228. Gab

    A veil isn’t necessarily Islamic.

    You do not help the “moderate muslim” cause with your taqiyya, Dot.

    The Qur’an:

    Quran (33:59) – “Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them…”

    Quran (24:31) – “And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known.” (The woman is not only supposed to cover herself, except with relatives, but to look down, so as to avoid making eye-contact with men).

    Qur’an (33:55) – “It shall be no crime in them as to their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their woman, or the slaves which their right hands possess, if they speak to them unveiled” (A woman is only allowed to present herself unveiled to family and slaves).

    From the Hadith:

    Bukhari (6:321) – Muhammad is asked whether it is right for a young woman to leave her house without a veil. He replies, “She should cover herself with the veil of her companion.”

    Bukhari (60:282) – After Muhammad issued the command (Qur’an 24:31) for women to cover themselves, the women responded by tearing up sheets to cover their faces.

    Abu Dawud (32:4092) – The Apostle of Allah… said: “O Asma’, when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands” This was according to Aisha.

    Abu Dawud (2:641) – The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah does not accept the prayer of a woman who has reached puberty unless she wears a veil.

    Bukhari (52:250) – [The Prophet said] “It is not permissible for a man to be alone with a woman, and no lady should travel except with a Muhram (i.e. her husband or a person whom she cannot marry in any case for ever; e.g. her father, brother, etc.).” – Neither is a woman allowed to travel by herself.

    Sharia Law is Islamic law.

  229. thefrollickingmole

    Quite the contrary. I do not care if they are poor, oppressed, or misunderstood. I have confidence that our own civilisation – that consumer culture – will prevail over all others

    Ok this deserves a serious response, because it goes right to the heart of the mindset Sinclair may be having some trouble with.

    While in detention services I saw among the largely Muslim, largely Arabic population the following mindset.

    A great desire for “branded” products, Nike, YSL, all the top brands.
    But when confronted with the price of these items almost all, 90% plus refused to purchase the items based on price, I heard the variant of “I can buy this for $5 back home” meaning they wanted the status of the brand, but didnt care if it was a pirated version.

    That mindset will trash your consumer culture argument badly, if Im reading you right you believe the desire for the material goods will tone down radicalism as people become civilised by consumption. A good theory, and one I would have thought as well until realising much of the Mohammedans mindset is short term, where an ersatz iphone is better than a real one because its cheaper, but has the same “look”.

    In the same sense many of the new arrivals I met saw Australia as a place to get what they wanted with minimal effort. One of the biggest communication problems was trying to establish fairness in rules, there were constant attempts to bribe or stand over others when they could get away with it, and in the end just break crap if they didnt get what they wanted and hope when things settled down they would be in a better position.

    But I will draw a distinction between Middle Eastern Islam and the Asian version. I worked with large numbers of Christmas Islanders/Malays etc, and they were chalk and cheese compared to the Middle Eastern variety Muslim. No less devout in most cases, but low key and saw their religion as largely private.

    This article is reasonably relevant to the mindset Im trying to explain.
    http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

    Im not going to change your mind, but I do think your faith in consumerism as a civilising force may be incorrect.

  230. Tim Neilson

    Sinc,
    Name one Christian denomination that endorsed the KKK.
    Name one Biblical text that the KKK cited to support their activity, and tell me that you agree that their interpretation is remotely plausible.
    Or apologise profusely for slander.

  231. candy

    Good post from Prof D.

    The media has a duty to be very discreet and very cautious in their reporting and columns etc, and be ultra careful and calming, because that’s the right thing to do by all right now. The media has such an impact nowadays.

  232. stackja

    Denazification is a term used to describe the efforts made by the Allies to remove active members of the former National Socialist (Nazi) Party from official public office and influential positions in Germany after World War II.

    The Americans had two conflicting tendencies: first, they had a general suspicion of all Germans and because of a sense of collective guilt, they could not easily distinguish between Nazis and others. Second, they sought to reeducate Germans for democracy, which took on added importance as the Cold War began. In the Soviet zone, the goal was to consolidate Communist rule and to eliminate capitalists and even take the property of the middle class.

    Do we need de-radicalisation of Muslims?

  233. Senile Old Guy

    Whyisitso at least argues that I have become a sell-out lefty. But he is old and grumpy. Why is it that the rest of you assume that too?

    Well, I am also old and grumpy. But I don’t assume that you have become a sell-out lefty. But I am concerned that your “the west will win eventually” attitude may not really play out that well.

    My main point, however, and that of several others, is that if most are moderate, then we need to see that.

  234. Michaelc58

    The problem is Islam has a 100 year view and we are slowly the boiled frogs.
    Where would you draw the line, Sinclair?
    In England: Sharia Law has become official with hundreds of Sharia courts. There are Muslim areas that are essentially no go for police.
    Where will you draw the line, Sinclair?
    We have workplace prayers, mosques, occupy streets prayers, halal, Sharia banking, no pork on Qantas, offensive burkas everywhere, calls for recognition of sharia, unofficial FGM, child brides, polygamy and above all fear of criticizing anything Islamic for PC and frank safety fears.
    Where will you draw the line , Sinclair?
    Or will you keep appeasing and appeasing so not make any hard decisions and leave it to your children to fight or live in dhimmitude under Islam?

    “There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men.” — Edmund Burke
    “History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.” — Dwight D. Eisenhower,

  235. Matthew

    To reiterate: if vanilla Australians are so racist and evil then it is irresponsible to promote a policy of immigration that puts foreign Muslims at risk of our prejudices. Am I wrong, Sinclair?

  236. Driftforge

    Short circuit all of this.

    Is it a good thing that either the people or the government rise up and remove Islam from our midst?

    Is it better that, like France, we wait until they make up more than 10% of the population? And to then simply allow democratic processes to carry Islam — like it has the left — to dominance?

    Democracy makes no judgement on worth, only on immediate economic value. It is very poor at answering the question ‘Where do you want society to be in 50 years?’; it always takes the lowest cost option. Little by little, culture, civilisation, heritage all gets worn away.

    Is Sinc’s ‘conversion of the faith’ likely to occur at any point prior to democracy doing its thing?

    The left only respect violence. The left acts to forbid actions to which it is vulnerable, and we allow this because in the immediate sense they seem ‘good’.

    Islam is prepared to tolerate violence in the maintenance of their way of life; we, typically, are not. Our violence is deeply constrained and tailored to our heritage.

    What we see here is a societal response to a problem that has grown in our midst over a generation, one in which the easy actions that could have been taken to prevent today being reached, have not. Now, only hard choices are left, or leftist choices that put off the problem for a generation when our children may not have the capacity to deal with it.

    When it becomes necessary, we must abandon freedom to preserve law; abandon law to preserve order. For freedom can be regained in years, and law can be rebuilt in decades, but civilisation itself can be lost for centuries.

  237. Andrew

    I have friends who are Labor / union types. I don’t call for them to be assaulted, deported or otherwise victimised. I interact politely with them, and occasionally discuss our respective philosophies. Some of them are even moderate enough to call out those (like Gillard, Thomson etc) who were bringing the game into disrepute, and distance themselves from those sorts.

    However, I recognise their ideology as severely flawed, having done immense damage, is represented by some evil and dangerous men and think we shouldn’t send the boat to Scotland to import 50,000 more Mc457s.

  238. This post reminds me of that time Sinc said Craig Emerson was a ‘good guy’.

  239. Driftforge

    if vanilla Australians are so racist and evil

    Don’t conflate ‘racist’ and ‘evil’.

  240. C.L.

    Ban any mention of religion, politics and sport.

    I’m not talking about banning the topic.

    Me of all people.

    But it has become somewhat tiresome.

    Not helped by the trolling in this post; constituted by this post, indeed.

    Dot wants tens of thousands of Muslims to be let in via open borders so that we too can end up banning books, cartoons, art works, movies, Facebooking, free speech, ADF uniforms etc.

    Others – libertarians – don’t.

    I’m just leaving it at that and moving on.

  241. C.L.

    I wouldn’t respect Sinclair if he just went with a crowd.

    He believes what he believes and has the bona fides to do so.

  242. Michaelc58

    Seriously, Sinclair
    Give us your Chamberlain’s red line, where you would say you were wrong about Islam’s role in Australia and change your mind on continuing to accommodate it ?

  243. Snoopy

    A veil isn’t necessarily Islamic. A burka is not simply a ‘veil’. Please link to non-Islamic burka.

    Islamic banking merely in practice, changes counter party risk and equity risk. No doubt you know infidels who have been approved for loans?

    There are many Mormons who are not FDLS who practice polygamy. So what? Prosecute it.

  244. .

    Dot wants tens of thousands of Muslims to be let in via open borders so that we too can end up banning books, cartoons, art works, movies, Facebooking, free speech, ADF uniforms etc.

    Why lie?

  245. stackja

    C.L.
    #1460398, posted on September 26, 2014 at 12:39 pm
    Ban any mention of religion, politics and sport.

    I’m not talking about banning the topic.

    Me of all people.

    But it has become somewhat tiresome.

    Not helped by the trolling in this post; constituted by this post, indeed.

    Dot wants tens of thousands of Muslims to be let in via open borders so that we too can end up banning books, cartoons, art works, movies, Facebooking, free speech, ADF uniforms etc.

    Others – libertarians – don’t.

    I’m just leaving it at that and moving on.

    I’m moving on

  246. A Lurker

    Maybe Rosemary should have remembered to mention this, all because of this.

  247. nilk

    Do students attending religious schools, colleges, get a reasonable secular education, or are they totally brain-washed?

    They’re all brainwashed, Robert O. My girl’s in a catholic school and it’s a shocker. This year’s theme is “social justice”, with last term’s RE focussing on world religions (ie anything but christianity).

    Sod that. I’m a single parent on a very average wage, paying several grand a year for that?

    The State schools are just as bad if not worse.

  248. Roger

    When it becomes necessary, we must abandon freedom to preserve law; abandon law to preserve order. For freedom can be regained in years, and law can be rebuilt in decades, but civilisation itself can be lost for centuries.

    I doubt that will make it as a Liberty Quote, but I heartily endorse the thoughts expressed therein.

  249. .

    Snoopy – what’s a burka and what’s a veil? Do you really want to write that law? You need to write legislation, not a vague idea.

    If Islamic banking won’t give me a loan – I really don’t care. It is their private property and they have a prerogative to discriminate.

    So what? Prosecute it.

    No. There is no reason to.

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