Because terrorists have rights …

So let’s make a list of things Man Monis wasn’t doing:

  • he wasn’t speeding
  • he wasn’t jay-walking
  • he didn’t light up a cigarette in Martin Place
  • he wasn’t trying to get into a pub after 2am
  • he didn’t fail to prove that he hadn’t consumed WADA banned drugs
  • he didn’t refer to both males and females as ‘guys’
  • he didn’t call anyone ‘hysterical’
  • he didn’t [I’m sure the comments will add to this list].

No – what Man Monis did was take hostages and engage in an act of terrorism. No biggie. Today we read in The Australian why the NSW police seemed to stand around for hours on end doing very little. Well until Man Monis killed a hostage.

The police commander who held off ordering tactical officers to storm the Lindt cafe until after hostage Tori Johnson was killed has told an inquest gunman Man Haron Monis “had the same rights as anyone else”, prompting the victim’s mother to charge out of the courtroom, calling the officer “an absolute disgrace”.

I was entirely unaware that there was a right to take hostages, threaten to kill people, and engage in acts of terrorism. Maybe this is uniquely a NSW thing.

Apparently this is a good thing too.

“If someone is in the process of committing a crime, a serious crime, as Monis was, that person can be subjected to a lawful ­response,” the president of the NSW Council for Civil Liberties, solicitor Stephen Blanks, said. “A lawful response enables the police to use all necessary force in order to bring the commission of the crime to an end and to arrest the offender. The police don’t have a right to kill a person who is committing an offence unless the police or somebody else is being seriously threatened and there is no reasonable alternative to the use of lethal force.”

A Sydney criminal lawyer put forward a similar interpretation, and said Australia should be glad its police do not adopt the practice of being more inclined to kill ­hostage-takers, even it if meant people were likely to be hurt.

I think the Coroner realises these comments are out of step with community expectations.

… the police officer, whose name has been suppressed by state coroner Michael Barnes …

If Mike Baird is as tough on terrorism as he is grey hound racing I expect this anonymous police officer will be clearing out his desk later today. But … I’m not holding my breath.

Let’s have that quote, one more time.

I can’t ignore Man Monis as an individual, he had the same rights as anyone else.

When terrorists have rights, law abiding citizens cannot.

This entry was posted in Terrorism, Tough on Crime, tough on criminals. Bookmark the permalink.

167 Responses to Because terrorists have rights …

  1. struth

    The elites in Australia truly do treat dogs better than the terrible white trash masses they have the unfortunate task of ruling!

    Save the dogs.
    Fuck the people.

  2. Terrorists actually have ZERO rights, not even under Geneva convention.

    Killing them quickly and efficiently is the job of our police and security forces.

  3. stevem

    Yes, Monis had exactly the same rights as anyone else. Right up until the time he deprived his hostages of their rights. That was the point he ceded his own rights.

  4. feelthebern

    Man Monis didn’t look at his watch while Gillard was speaking.

  5. Rabz

    No one has a “right” to get around in an outfit like this.

    Had he been summarily executed then we could have been spared all the subsequent unpleasantness.

  6. allan

    Re the WADA point Sinclair, here’s a novel idea:

    Abolish ASADA, and use the money saved to set up a new body under Tony Abbott to protect Australians from the Islamists.

  7. Perplexed of Brisbane

    At what point do the Special Forces CT Teams get involved? At Princes Gate, when a hostage was killed, the Police handed over to the SAS who then ‘dealt’ with the terrorists. Were they not calling it a terrorist incident to keep the military out of it? Or is it because he didn’t kill anyone until the end?

    It appears there are limitations to the scope of the Police response because they are trying to arrest the culprit. Once the military are deployed, the only requirement is the safe release of the hostages, the terrorist will be killed to achieve that end. That is my understanding and quite possibly incorrect. Anyone out there with military experience who could comment?

    Why have Special Forces CT teams if they aren’t going to be used?

  8. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    the president of the NSW Council for Civil Liberties, solicitor Stephen Blanks, said. “

    Civil libertarians, always so brave in the face of someone else s danger…

  9. Sparkx

    Man Monis didn’t eat a raw onion. Man Monis didn’t wear budgie-smugglers.

  10. calli

    No one has a “right” to get around in an outfit like this.

    Had he been summarily executed then we could have been spared all the subsequent unpleasantness.

    Over-use of Napisan causes mental instability and murderous rage. There should be a product re-call.

  11. Diogenes

    He didn’t
    … try to ride a bike without a helmet
    … try to drive with no seatbelt
    … try to drive a vehicle 30 mins after the rego expired
    … race greyhounds
    … attempt to enter his own property whilst the house he was paying to be built house was being built without a construction white card
    … put his feet on a train seat
    … attempt to build a house without water tanks
    … buy takeaway alcohol after 10pm
    … smoke in a school, prison, hospital, bus stop, station, swimming pool or looney bin or within 4 meters of any building entrance
    … try to hang onto his property in a strata after 75% of owners decided to sell.

  12. H B Bear

    No one has a “right” to get around in an outfit like this.

    Looks like he has walked straight out of a Whitlam government cabinet meeting with his mum. Actually I’m surprised Monis wasn’t on the Auburn council.

  13. Fred Lenin

    Watched a Dalziel and Pascoe vid last night ,on a rooftop carpark a bad guy with s revolver ,tries to grab a female detective as hostage Police snipers drop him instantly no messing. No negotiations while he holds the hostage , this must be standard Police procedure to film it and it was set in Yorkshire !
    A place not exactly awash with guns ,and extremely strict laws regarding firearms . It was only a film. But it was satisfying seeing the gunman shot dead think of the savings ,no trial. no expensive lawyers,,no paying a fortune to keep him incarcerated ,accountants dream that !

  14. jupes

    The police don’t have a right to kill a person who is committing an offence unless the police or somebody else is being seriously threatened and there is no reasonable alternative to the use of lethal force.”

    They should have killed the prick.

    A Sydney criminal lawyer put forward a similar interpretation, and said Australia should be glad its police do not adopt the practice of being more inclined to kill ­hostage-takers, even it if meant people were likely to be hurt.

    Why, you sanctimonious arsehole?

    Look, I’m not sure that the blame for this should rest entirely on this police commander. He was well up the leadership ladder and the only way to keep climbing was to please his superiors. Obviously killing terrorists wouldn’t have made them happy.

    This attitude that any killing is bad has spread through our society and has even affected the ADF. No doubt if the police snipers had shot Monis earlier, there would have been a courtroom full of lawyers lining up to prosecute the cops.

  15. feelthebern

    Man Monis didn’t wear a blue tie.

  16. Roger

    When terrorists have rights, law abiding citizens cannot.

    This is nonsense. As offensive as it may seem, even terrorists have rights at law; that’s why they are subject to arrest and trial when caught and not handed over to the mob, as satisfying to our desire for revenge though the latter prospect might be. But that is what makes us a civilised society – the rule of law, which serves to protect all of us from unlawful actions by police and provides for punishment and redress when they occur. Thus the QLD police officer who drew his gun on a motorist pulled over for speeding is facing charges of deprivation of liberty and assault, not to mention any civil case that might be brought against him. Or would you rather police were a law unto themselves, as they are in many countries?

    It might just be possible, then, that the police commander was second guessing him or herself because of the possible consequences if the use of lethal force against Monis was later deemed by the coroner to be unjustified and therefore unlawful (yes, with hindsight this seems absurd, but you have to factor in how police training shapes their decision making to understand why the commander would think this way).

    Pace Sinclair, the problem here is not according criminals certain legal rights, it is the misdiagnosis of the situation by NSW police command. They should have reached the conclusion early on that the hostages were in grave danger and acted accordingly – they would then have had a firm legal basis for commanding the sniper to shoot Monis at the earliest opportunity or, what would undoubtedly have been wiser, handing the situation over to the military, who are better equipped to handle such things.

    As it is, on the commanding officer’s own admission, they were straddled between regarding the siege as a terror attack and a domestic type hostage situation. They handled it like the latter, with the disastrous consequences that followed for the dead and injured hostages. I expect one or more of the coroner’s findings will go to this error of judgment of the police and, one hopes, prevent it from happening again by recommending that the command of the response to terror attacks is taken out of their hands as beyond their competence.

  17. thefrolickingmole

    Man Monis didnt manspread on public transport.

  18. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    I expect one or more of the coroner’s findings will go to this error of judgment of the police and, one hopes, prevent it from happening again by recommending that the command of the response to terror attacks is taken out of their hands as beyond their competence.

    That’s the best summation – “as beyond their competence.”

  19. Perplexed, the CT groups are for keeping the Nomenklatura and their families safe, not for us peasants.

  20. lotocoti

    If you get the opportunity, catch Eye in the Sky.
    It too is chock-a-block with political/legal pearl clutching and column dodging when the tactical situation changes track-and-capture to track-and-kill.
    Particularly odious is the political propaganda value of letting the jihadi wannabes carry out their plans versus that avoid-action-at-all-cost phrase: collateral damage.

  21. Pyrmonter

    If the subject is liable to condemnation by a mere police constable on the basis of apprehension of criminality, what rights do any of us have?

    Do we want to go down the path against which, among other SJWs, Cato’s people warn?

    http://www.cato.org/events/policing-america

  22. Leigh Lowe

    Rabz
    #2094971, posted on July 20, 2016 at 9:00 am
    No one has a “right” to get around in an outfit like this.

    A joke, I know, but it kind of raises an interesting point.
    He had a pretty good dress up box but it is interesting that, towards the end, when he was attending court or other official proceedings, he would turn up in the long robes with the round muzzy cap on.
    No doubt he had figured out that the imam robes were like kryptonite to judges and bail justices.

  23. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    I’m not asking for any breach of the Official Secrets Act, here, but, according to the comments on the Oz article, Army OFFERED to take over, and NSW coppers assured them they were capable of handling the situation?

  24. old bloke

    . he wasn’t an Essendon supporter.

  25. C.L.

    He should have been shot when he stepped off the plane originally.

  26. C.L.

    … according to the comments on the Oz article, Army OFFERED to take over, and NSW coppers assured them they were capable of handling the situation?

    Of course. NSW Police spent millions of dollars on bat-suits and lots of SWAT toys. You don’t think they’re going to stand down and leave it to the hard-core commando professionals, do you? It would have been humiliating. The Wiggles had more chance of successfully raiding that restaurant than the clowns of the NSW Police.

  27. iampeter

    I read this article yesterday and almost fell out of my chair as well. Here I was giving the police every benefit of the doubt this entire time, thinking it was a very challenging situation and the best possible effort was made to save the hostages.

    Now it turns out in the captains own words, they were protecting the terrorists “rights”. As usual the disaster is a result of public sector, intellectual light weight, moral equivalence nonsense.

    Ultimately terrorism is not a law and order issue – it’s a strategy of war. This is something that has to be solved militarily.

  28. Joe

    As to lawyers and rights.

    It’s simple. Man with a gun holding hostages vs. police. Man ends up dead. End of story.

    What it’s not is some random encounter in the street between the police and a citizen.

    Even a lawyer should be able to distinguish between the two scenarios.

  29. OldOzzie

    If Mike Baird is as tough on terrorism as he is grey hound racing I expect this anonymous police officer will be clearing out his desk later today. But … I’m not holding my breath.

    Let’s have that quote, one more time.

    I can’t ignore Man Monis as an individual, he had the same rights as anyone else.

    Mike Baird is a Waste of Space – he makes Turdbull look good

    All Mike likes to do is hang out with the Elite Luvvies sipping his Latte, and bask in their Patting Him on the Head as as their Pet Poodle

    The Appointment of the former head of the ABC, Mark Scott is to become the new head of the NSW Department of Education was unbelievable

    Is Mike Baird Plain Stupid or Just Dense?

    Mark Scott presided over the ABC Labor /Greens Media Arm who were/are totally Anti-Liberal, and Mike Baird has this to say on appointing him.

    NSW Premier Mike Baird said: “Mark’s appointment takes our reinvigoration of the senior executive of the NSW public service a step further.”

    “Along with promoting outstanding young talent from within the service, we have sought out the best and brightest from the corporate world.

    So just like Turdbull – Voting for the Arrogant Mike Baird Liberal in NSW is a waste of time.

    And the Liberal Party wonders why it has lost donations?

  30. incoherent rambler

    Someone with hostages, saying “à la snackbar” is an enemy combatant.
    As said : “When terrorists have rights, law abiding citizens cannot.“.

    Libertarians arise. There is no greater deprivation of individual liberty than depriving a citizen of life.
    The terrorist with police allies. A most dangerous combination.

  31. Tim Neilson

    Roger
    #2095006, posted on July 20, 2016 at 9:38 am
    Pyrmonter
    #2095029, posted on July 20, 2016 at 10:00 am
    I accept those arguments as being totally valid in the abstract.
    But in the concrete situation in Martin Place we had someone using a gun to hold others against their will and proving beyond doubt his belief in homicidal violence by displaying the flag of the ISIS death cult. Once someone does that, the rights of the hostages take absolute priority over the “rights” of the perpetrator. Eventually he killed Tori Johnson, so I hope everyone now accepts that killing him earlier would have been the right thing to do. But it isn’t mere hindsight when many on this blog say that he should have been shot a lot earlier – we were thinking it while the siege was unfolding. If the experts had said that it was too difficult or dangerous (to the hostages) to shoot him, that would be one thing, but to paralyse our protection of the hostages by elevating his rights above those of Tori Johnson, Katrina Dawson and the other hostages just demonstrates how diseased our society has become.
    Fred Lenin
    #2095000, posted on July 20, 2016 at 9:33 am
    Another example is David Hicks, the artist formerly known as Mohammed Dawood. As I understand it, at international law the troops who found him were entitled to blow his head off on the spot. Yet the decision to imprison him instead wasn’t hailed as civilised, it was just the source of endless terrorism promotion, anti-civilisation treachery, and poseurist virtue-signalling, to the great detriment of the fight against terror. If we are to exercise restraint against our enemies, the least that ought to happen is that that restraint isn’t used as the excuse for further assaults against us.

  32. Indolent

    So just like Turdbull – Voting for the Arrogant Mike Baird Liberal in NSW is a waste of time.

    As a lifelong Liberal voter, I wouldn’t dream of voting for either of them.

  33. Zyconoclast

    It appears there are limitations to the scope of the Police response because they are trying to arrest the culprit. Once the military are deployed, the only requirement is the safe release of the hostages, the terrorist will be killed to achieve that end. That is my understanding and quite possibly incorrect. Anyone out there with military experience who could comment?

    The NSW police need to justify the tens of millions of dollars spent on their anti terror squad. Scary black uniforms don’t come cheap.

  34. Occam's Blunt Razor

    Perplexed – the ADF can only get used if they are invited to under Aid to the Civil Powers authorization. that I used when the Civil powers do not have the resources to deal with the situation (Natural Disasters and Security Operations). It appears in this case the NSW Police were of the opinion that they could handle this. With hindsight it appears they actually couldn’t. Failings that I’ve seen so far that the ADF CT/SF would have been able to overcome:

    1. Communications equipment
    2. Command and Control systems that actually work
    3. Robust well rehearsed situational appreciation including Immediate Action Drills
    4. 0.50 Caliber Sniper Rifles that firing in sync/tandem would have penetrated the Café windows – if they weren’t happy with standard ball ammunition they would have used Armour Piercing Rounds – either standard or SLAP Rounds.
    5. More effective Flash-bang Grenades that actually would have stunned properly.

    And that’s just a start.

    There is a significant waste of resources due to State/Federal Police forces militarizing their Incident Response groups when the ADF also has the capability and proficiency at a much higher level.

  35. Mique

    I’m with Roger, and think that Sinc and the other gung-ho “killers” are way over the top into a place where no civilised society ought to go. The problem is that the cops are being demonised for not doing something that the scumbag media would have crucified them for doing if they had. The willingness of the media to sensationalise the family’s rather pathetic reaction to their misunderstanding of the cop’s perfectly reasonable statement shows what cynical bastards they are.

    Fact 1: Man Monis said he had a bomb and nobody, not the hostages, the cops on the scene or in command, and least of all the media, had any right to take him other than at his word.

    Fact 2: There is no way a sniper could have guaranteed to instantly kill him by shooting him through an industrial grade plate glass window without a strong chance of him still being able to trigger the bomb.

    So far, the inquest seems to be trying to second guess the police, and if the report does anything more than highlight what might, in the blinking light of hindsight, have been done better rather than what should have been done, eg cops should not have used the type of high-powered weaponry and ammunition that led to the collateral tragic death and injury, and that there must be improvements in command, control and communications, it will be a useless sop to “victimisation” and the grievance industry. If it blames the cops for not taking action earlier, it will be nothing short of a hysterical witch-hunt.

  36. Harry Buttle

    “Someone with hostages, saying “à la snackbar” is an enemy combatant.”

    No he isn’t. he is an unlawful combatant, you are certainly entitled to shoot him, but the difference is if he is captured he is not entitled to PoW status.

    Back in the day I had a Warrant Officer who was sent to assist NSW Police TRG training. when he came back he told us that, if we were ever in a hostage situation, try to get yourself out, these c**ts will get you killed.

  37. Habib

    The long march is pretty much complete, upper echelons of plod are full of such peter principle sitzplinken, the lower ranks with up and comers. Interesting how stridently he/she/it defends the rights of a prick who should’ve firstly never been allowed in, secondly turfed out for his numerous acts of bastardry, thirdly not out on bail for current offences, yet would be all over some citizen who wanted the right to self defence. Apply fork, this place is done.

  38. I expect that any reasonable report from the evidence before the Coroner would establish the following:

    The only decision to be made is is the hostage taker a terrorist. If so then it should immediately be turned over to the Army. This should happen before the first sentence of Alluh Akbar or Onward Christian Soldiers is finished or the sighting of any flag or communication to that effect . Even the upper echelons NSW plod could understand that.

    It should be ratified across all police forces as the Standard Operating Procedure in Australia and while the Police Special Operations groups are generally very successful in negotiating and resolving hostage and seige operations they simply aren’t equipped or experienced, as the evidence shows, to handle terrorist activities whereas the Army is both experienced and equipped for positive outcomes both legally and morally.

    It should become well know that once this ine is crossed it is a Military operation with a military outcome.

    Many of us called for the CT team at Holsdworthy to be deployed with the breaking news of the Seige and as the evidence states the CT team had already mocked up and practised within the first hours and it is mores the pity that their offer was rejected.

    It should not be again.

  39. Sorry fat fingers
    It should become well known that once this line is crossed it is a Military operation with a Military outcome.

  40. Harry Buttle

    “Fact 2: There is no way a sniper could have guaranteed to instantly kill him by shooting him through an industrial grade plate glass window without a strong chance of him still being able to trigger the bomb.”

    Clearly you’ve never looked up a .50 cal sniper rifles effect on the target, nor considered the fact that shooting through glass is exactly the sort of scenario that SASR CT snipers train for.

  41. Mique

    Mumbles, I tend to agree, but that decision is a political one, not an operational one, and would be unlikely to be taken by our spineless politicians who, regardless of party, are incapable of doing anything to upset the Muslims and their leftist claque. The media would crucify them.

  42. Snoopy

    Fact 1: Man Monis said he had a bomb and nobody, not the hostages, the cops on the scene or in command, and least of all the media, had any right to take him other than at his word.

    Didn’t the escaped hostages say they could see no evidence of a bomb?

    Fact 2: There is no way a sniper could have guaranteed to instantly kill him by shooting him through an industrial grade plate glass window without a strong chance of him still being able to trigger the bomb.

    I doubt an SAS CT team would have had any difficulty entering the rear door that hostages escaped from.

  43. Mique

    Yes, but first you’ve got to bring in the military, and even then it’s still fraught. Miss an instant kill, and there’s a good chance you’ve got a cafe full of dead bodies. Everyone knows, or ought to, that the best laid plans of mice and men aft gang agley, and that just because a weapon system is capable in ideal circumstances of meeting it’s advertised capability, doesn’t mean that it will always, or even often, do that. Best to talk while er it’s still possible to do so. Or wait.

    The real question in my mind is why Man Monis chose that time to kill Cory, and only Cory, or even to kill him at all, knowing as he must have done that the “game” (dare I still use that word?) was up. How dare that fuck-witted lawyer censure the cop for offending the family. Jesus wept, what sort of intellectual shit-hole is this country becoming.

  44. Habib

    Would’ve been TAG-E from 2 Commando & 1 CDT at Holsworthy rather than SASR, however given the nod, laughing boy would’ve been zipped up in a rubber sack within an hour. NSW plod are looking worse every day of hearings, they’d be best advised to stay schtumm to avoid self-incrimination, or at least confirmation of incompetence. More out of their depth than Sen Dastiyari in the adults pool.

  45. stackja

    Monis was let into Australia.
    Monis was let out of prison.
    Lindt was too late to act.

  46. Dr Faustus

    Fact 1: Man Monis said he had a bomb and nobody, not the hostages, the cops on the scene or in command, and least of all the media, had any right to take him other than at his word.

    Mique: I am a complete duffer at this counter-terrorism stuff; perhaps you could explain how Monis’ killing of Tori Johnson created that right.

  47. Mique

    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and the hostages were not exactly expert witnesses.

    I’ve no doubt the Army could have done a better job once the decision was taken to go in. But the Army wasn’t there, and whether it should have been is one of the serious questions that has to be considered, but as I said earlier, it’s a political decision that I doubt our politicians would ever take. In my nearly 30 years in the Service, I can’t recall an occasion where the military was brought in aid to the civil power other than in the aftermath of the Hilton bombing.

  48. Gerry

    Id say Mike Baird has been going to dinner parties in Balmain in the past year …..shame really, he seemed such a nice chap

  49. Boambee John

    The ethos of the pllice is to arrest the wrongdoer.

    The ethos of the military is to kill the enemy.

    How do we define terrorist hostage takers?

    I believe they are the enemy.

  50. Mique

    Dr Faustus, sorry, poor choice of word. I should have said “reason”. But I think that by the time he was killed, whatever civil rights Man Monis might have had were eroded if not negated by his shooting at the escaping hostages. Up until that point, I don’t think anyone could have lawfully killed him. I still think Roger’s post above says it all on that rights issue.

  51. HGS

    “Roger
    When terrorists have rights, law abiding citizens cannot.
    This is nonsense.”

    Yes, what you say is lovely and rational, yet, what you say is also a nonsense,

    “that is what makes us a civilised society – the rule of law..”

    Has there ever been a time or place without the rule of law? Where all these places civilised?

    The sad affair of Martin Place simply highlights that the police are not a good or sound defence of civilisation nor freedom. They are enforcers, seemingly better at harassing citizens for breaking non-laws. That is what the list of trivia that Monis was not doing makes clear .

    “recommending that the command of the response to terror attacks is taken out of their hands as beyond their competence”

    and handed to another incompetent ?

    When the ability to defend ourselves has been taken away, Martin Place is really the norm.

  52. Tim Neilson

    Mique
    #2095098, posted on July 20, 2016 at 10:55 am
    Missing the point, though, Mique. There may have been, as you say, valid operational reasons for not shooting him – that’s fine, I wouldn’t pretend to second guess the authorities on that.
    But that’s not the subject of my (and I believe others’) criticism. And that’s not what the authorities were saying. They weren’t saying just that the best interests of the hostages were served by refraining from shooting. They were saying that the “rights” of the killer influenced their decision not to shoot.
    And that’s simply wrong. Someone who uses a gun to imprison others against their will, and publicly declares allegiance to a terrorist death cult while imprisoning them, has thereby forfeited their place in the “rights” hierarchy to the extent that if killing them is likely to make the hostages safer then they have NO “right” not to be killed.

  53. feelthebern

    Man Monis didn’t wear didn’t say “birth mothers” at a love in in Canberra.

  54. Fat Tony

    So what’s the end result of all this?

    In a hostage situation, you have a 50-50 chance of being killed by the cops?

    Wait? (17+ hours with an islamic nutjob?)

    Or decide you’re on your own and act accordingly? (If you can).

  55. Habib

    I’ve no doubt the Army could have done a better job once the decision was taken to go in. But the Army wasn’t there………… no, 2 chalks were on full stand-by on the flight line at Holsworthy, ten minutes from roping in to the site. Never called. Gross negligence, and all senior players (including the minister and premier) should be given the arse at the very least.

  56. Tel

    Dr Faustus, sorry, poor choice of word. I should have said “reason”. But I think that by the time he was killed, whatever civil rights Man Monis might have had were eroded if not negated by his shooting at the escaping hostages. Up until that point, I don’t think anyone could have lawfully killed him. I still think Roger’s post above says it all on that rights issue.

    Well that would be quite unusual, because there was a case not so long ago when a guy in Parramatta pulled a knife on a cop, didn’t actually stab the cop just held it up threateningly. Cop shoots the knife wielder dead, no big investigation, just like: Yeah, he was a bad guy, self defence shooting, end of investigation.

    Let me point out that the police are obliged to defend other civilians in much the same way as they defend themselves (how successfully they achieve this is arguable, but that’s the idea), and Monis was known to be unstable (they had a long record on him, and many hours to think about it) and known to be holding a more dangerous weapon than a knife, and depriving a bunch of hostages of their liberty.

  57. Mique

    HGS, when we start to kill people for what someone in authority says they might do, we have truly returned to barbarity. When we allow people in authority to declare a person to be a “terrorist” on the basis of an action well short of actual terrorism-motivated murder, then we’re well on the way.

    That way, every schizophrenic has a potential death penalty waiting to be executed.

    No thanks.

  58. Notafan

    No doubt at the time they stayed their hand because muslim terrorists have rights.

  59. Notafan

    So ee always have to wait until the hostages are murdered.

    Great.

  60. Habib

    And I’ll happily bet my left nut that had it been some sticky-fingered politician being held hostage rather than just lumpen taxpayers, the place would’ve been stormed and secured licketty-split. I’d encourage the victims and families to sue, despite being no fan of plaintiff law- except of course none of these dickheads would be personally liable for their idiocy. Including the peanuts at DIMEA who gave him a visa, the officials and minister who failed to deport him, and the beak who bailed him. a litany of limp-dicked pandering to a protected species.

  61. Viva

    While, according to the police, terrorists have rights, people with mental health issues who act out in public apparently have none. They are usually shot in short order.

  62. Artist Formerly Known As Infidel Tiger

    2 magnificent thoughts from Iowahawk:

    1. People should not be able to vote until their children are paying taxes

    2. Man, that Melania Trump is quite a plagiarist! Also man, that Bill Clinton is quite a rapist!

  63. Tel

    Gross negligence, and all senior players (including the minister and premier) should be given the arse at the very least.

    Ha ha, yeah well out other choice is the Australian Labor Party and it’s going to be a long time before New South Wales makes that mistake again, so we are stuck with the fool. Hard to get good help these days.

  64. incoherent rambler

    But the Army wasn’t there…

    Ahem. They were. I believe they were assigned to traffic duties.

  65. Zyconoclast

    More out of their depth than Sen Dastiyari in the adults pool.

    Most accurate insult of the day. ?

  66. Diogenes

    might do,

    MIGHT ? MIGHT ?

    He was f’ing doing it.

    The moment he called for the flag, or claimed to be part of AQ, ISIS, or yelled Allan’s Snackbar he declared himself to be an unprivileged belligerent and it stopped being a law enforcement operation & became a military operation.

  67. Tel

    Another example is David Hicks, the artist formerly known as Mohammed Dawood. As I understand it, at international law the troops who found him were entitled to blow his head off on the spot.

    There were no troops who found David Hicks, he was grabbed by local Afghans, bundled up and sold to the USA for a bounty. However, that said, if the Afghans had shot him instead of claiming the bounty then the matter would have ended there, so I guess that suggests they were “entitled” in as much as might makes right on the day.

  68. Bad Samaritan

    Tim Neilsen (10.42am). You should probably be giving the whole David Hicks thingy a little more thought.

    US Officer; You spill the beans or we blow your head off.
    Hicks; OK. But I’ll need protection
    US Officer; That will be arranged

    For five years we were all assured that Hicks was a physical and mental wreck. Gitmo had left him a broken man. The US Marine Captain (FFS!) lawyer assured us that David was truly suffering, as did his dad and others. Hicks was an emaciated semi-vegetable.

    Come the Court Martial, out bounces a pudgy David making witty jokes with the judge. He then gets a slap on the wrist…is sent home and never has a financial worry ever again.

    Got any idea as to what this might all mean Tim?

    BTW. Same deal with the not-found WMDs in Iraq. Why would the CIA et al not plant some? Answer; You only plant stuff when you don’t find it in the first place.

    The CIA etc is not interested in arresting people and making cases against them, Tim. They want to kill the perps, which requires not letting them know what you know. Whilst said perps are yukking it up in some safe house someplace at the stupidity of the yanks, those CIA “idiots” are using the not-found evidence to go get ’em.

    Another question How come the yanks were always unable to get track of Osama bin Laden, until one day…..eh? They did keep us informed didn’t they? You believe they did, don’t you?

  69. Tel

    Terrorists actually have ZERO rights, not even under Geneva convention.

    Monis was Australian, he was inside Australia and surrounded by Australian police, it was entirely a local affair and absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Geneva convention. Astounding the nonsense that pops up around here.

    NSW cops can use hollow point bullets, the Geneva convention would disallow it, but that’s irrelevant because the Geneva convention does not apply to any internal matters.

    Turkey can arrest people for the crime of being a schoolteacher… weird but completely internal to Turkey.

  70. Mater

    Snoopy
    #2095121, posted on July 20, 2016 at 11:17 am

    I doubt an SAS CT team would have had any difficulty entering the rear door that hostages escaped from.

    Well done, Snoopy. Spot on.
    Unfortunately, the broadcast was live, even into the cafe.
    They set themselves up to fail.

  71. Mique

    Mater, with Channel 7 breathing down their necks from their studio right across the street, there was no realistic chance of keeping a news blackout in force, and we are not quite yet the sort of totalitarian state that some in here seem keen to impose on us.

    All the gung-ho schemes being bruited about here are available to totalitarian Police states. They’re not available to our governments/authorities, all gods be praised.

  72. Leigh Lowe

    So let’s make a list of things Man Monis wasn’t doing:
    ?he wasn’t speeding
    ?he wasn’t jay-walking
    ?he didn’t light up a cigarette in Martin Place
    ?he wasn’t trying to get into a pub after 2am
    ?he didn’t fail to prove that he hadn’t consumed WADA banned drugs
    ?he didn’t refer to both males and females as ‘guys’
    ?he didn’t call anyone ‘hysterical’

    ?he wasn’t a Catholic Cardinal

  73. Tim Neilson

    Bad Samaritan
    #2095189, posted on July 20, 2016 at 12:10 pm
    You may well be right.
    Doesn’t alter my point about middle class pinko virtue signalling though.

  74. Leigh Lowe

    Fact 1: Man Monis said he had a bomb and nobody, not the hostages, the cops on the scene or in command, and least of all the media, had any right to take him other than at his word.

    Fact 2 … As pointed out above, none of the escaped hostages indicated that there was any evidence of a bomb;
    Fact 3 … He had left his back-pack unattended on several occasions during the siege;
    Fact 4 … There is strong evidence that he was NOT carrying an auto ‘deadman’ switch which would trigger if he was shot or incapacitated;
    Fact 5 … The bomb story is fucking bullshit concocted by the Telstra Businesswoman of the Year to retrospectively make the case for not doing anything and thus killing two innocents.

  75. jupes

    HGS, when we start to kill people for what someone in authority says they might do, we have truly returned to barbarity.

    As opposed to when we allow a Muslim claiming allegiance to Islamic State to hold and shoot hostages rather than kill him. I’ll take so called “barbarity” to fucking stupidity any day.

    When we allow people in authority to declare a person to be a “terrorist” on the basis of an action well short of actual terrorism-motivated murder, then we’re well on the way.

    If we don’t declare a Muslim holding hostages and asking for an IS flag to be a terrorist, then we are too stupid to survive.

    That way, every schizophrenic has a potential death penalty waiting to be executed.

    Well, if the schizo is a Muslim holding hostages and asking for an IS flag, then he should be “executed”.

    All the gung-ho schemes being bruited about here are available to totalitarian Police states. They’re not available to our governments/authorities, all gods be praised.

    With attitudes like yours mique, it’s no wonder that the modern ADF is such a lame-arse organisation.

  76. Leigh Lowe

    All the gung-ho schemes being bruited about here are available to totalitarian Police states. They’re not available to our governments/authorities, all gods be praised.

    Cutting a live feed is “gung-ho”?
    Fuck, are you Squalid Wally, bleating that drone kills don’t follow the Marquess of Queensberry rules?
    The same thing happened during the capture of the second Boston bomber. The media had tapped into the police helo video feed, and those in charge killed the feed totally in case they had to blow the piece of shit to pieces instead of arresting him.

  77. Mater

    Mique,
    They have the power, and the area should have been cleared completely for several blocks to counter an accomplice phoning in information. The practicality of completely clearing that particular area (high rise buildings, etc) is a different issue.

  78. Snoopy

    Handled properly live coverage of the back door could have been a tactical advantage. ‘Encourage’ the television stations to run a loop of footage showing nothing happening.

  79. Andreas

    HGS, when we start to kill people for what someone in authority says they might do, we have truly returned to barbarity. When we allow people in authority to declare a person to be a “terrorist” on the basis of an action well short of actual terrorism-motivated murder, then we’re well on the way.

    ISIS is a terrorist organisation, our enemy, and had called for Muslims to kill Australians. When someone claims allegiance to ISIS and demands an ISIS flag while taking hostages at gun-point they’re a f*cking terrorist. The only way it could be more obvious is if he had a neon sign saying “terrorist” strapped to his chest.

    How stupid can some people get.

    What was going to happen next was obvious to anyone who’s been paying attention the last 15 bloody years. Obviously the NSW Police hierarchy haven’t and they should all be fired.

  80. Mater

    Handled properly live coverage of the back door could have been a tactical advantage.

    A well timed phone call, from the bloke he was demanding to talk to all day, might have proved useful also!

  81. Empire

    Id say Mike Baird has been going to dinner parties in Balmain in the past year …..shame really, he seemed such a nice chap

    His old man, an authoritarian Liberal wet (who opposed mandatory detention with Broadbent and Georgiou), taught him well. Baird has never been a nice chap. Mike has always believed that your liberty is his command.

  82. Leigh Lowe

    Well done, Snoopy. Spot on.
    Unfortunately, the broadcast was live, even into the cafe.
    They set themselves up to fail.

    Mater, I had always thought that could have been turned into a tactical advantage.
    Simply record five minutes of “nothing doing” footage at 10:05 PM to 10:10 PM, then start broadcasting it again at 10:20 PM just before the troops gather outside the rear door.
    It is 12 hours in and Fuckknuckle has a lot on his plate so is unlikely to notice that it is a replay from ten minutes ago. He is reassured by glancing at the TV screen every few seconds and seeing that nothing is happening.
    OK, it doesn’t assure success but it buys a few valuable seconds, and the troops can spend a minute or two getting themselves perfectly set-up for an assault.

  83. Mater

    Mique,

    A hard lesson learned from the Munich Olympics.

    Their plan was to crawl down from the ventilation shafts and kill the terrorists. The police took up positions awaiting the codeword “Sunshine”, which upon hearing, they were to begin the assault. In the meantime, camera crews filmed the actions of the officers from the German apartments, and broadcast the images live on television. Thus, the terrorists were able to watch the police prepare to attack. Footage shows one of the kidnappers peering from the balcony door while one of the police officers stood on the roof less than 20 ft (6 m) from him. In the end, after Issa threatened to kill two of the hostages, the police retreated from the premises.

  84. Leigh Lowe

    Handled properly live coverage of the back door could have been a tactical advantage. ‘Encourage’ the television stations to run a loop of footage showing nothing happening.

    Snap Snoop.
    Fuck me.
    Untrained lay-persons like me can come up with distractions, diversions and tactical trickery, but these gifted fucking amateurs were still waiting for the 12 gauge to go off to signal the start.

  85. Empire

    Mater, with Channel 7 breathing down their necks from their studio right across the street, there was no realistic chance of keeping a news blackout in force, and we are not quite yet the sort of totalitarian state that some in here seem keen to impose on us.

    All the gung-ho schemes being bruited about here are available to totalitarian Police states. They’re not available to our governments/authorities, all gods be praised.

    LOL. States have been suppressing communications in the name of national security since papyrus was invented. The government can and does regularly lean on media agencies not to report or broadcast certain material. Channel 7 could have been shut down if the will was there.

  86. feelthebern

    Considering Alan Jones has already anointed Saint Burn as the next commissioner, it’s hard to see anything derailing her.

  87. feelthebern

    I would imagine that Saint Burn would have quite the dossier on all required parties given her time in internal affairs.

  88. Mater

    Mater, I had always thought that could have been turned into a tactical advantage.

    It could have Leigh, no doubts. Audacity and the unexpected will win the day, and it is only limited by imagination. That is why we are, where we are.
    There was several really good options available.

  89. Habib

    All the gung-ho schemes being bruited about here are available to totalitarian Police states. They’re not available to our governments/authorities, all gods be praised. Oh yes they are, and in every western democracy. Not much point converting a chunk of your SF assets to CT roles and spending a shitload on training and kit if it’s illegal for those operators to actually carry out the tasks for which they’ve trained long and hard.

  90. Leigh Lowe

    LOL. States have been suppressing communications in the name of national security since papyrus was invented. The government can and does regularly lean on media agencies not to report or broadcast certain material. Channel 7 could have been shut down if the will was there.

    One phone call to Kerry Stokes should have done it.
    “Let us control the feed Kerry … No? … OK, well, we will be running an interview on Channel Nine straight afterwards if anything should go wrong … What’s that? … You’ve changed your mind?”

  91. Andreas

    Clearly the NSW Police hierarchy bought in to the idea that Islam is a wonderful peaceful religion and that everything its followers have done has been because of evil whities being mean. It was just a matter of addressing his legitimate grievances and everything would all be fine.

    Absolute clueless morons.

  92. Mique

    Jupes, you are advocating something that mirrors a police state, and neither I nor any sane person would support such a thing, particularly anyone with military experience. That is why, in peacetime at least, the ADF has taken great care to weed out psychopaths for whom the sort of bullshit you seem to favour would be routine. That’s why it’s still an organisation (Morrison notwithstanding) sane and decent people can still serve with a clear conscience. If the elected government of the day declares a state of war or defence emergency, then different rules will apply. We’re a long way from that point yet, and your opinion and mine count for two votes, one way or the other.

    The question is not whether people like Man Monis ought to have been declared a terrorist, but at what point and by whom, and that decision should only be made with due process, ie by nothing short of an order of a court of law, or by a duly authorised authority accountable to the law.

    Andreas, perhaps you’d prefer to kill ’em all on sight, or would you prefer the slightly more moderate Pauline Hanson solution.

    Get real.

  93. Habib

    I did work-ups with TAG E the year before last before the G20, and at no time when I was being ziplocked, a sack put over my head, and given a touch-up, or lit up by a H&K when I had a weapon was I asked to surrender, proclaim myself an x-ray, or subjected to a judicial enquiry to determine my civilian/combatant status. Are you a LEGALO, or from some CCL tax hoover?

  94. Andreas

    Andreas, perhaps you’d prefer to kill ’em all on sight, or would you prefer the slightly more moderate Pauline Hanson solution.

    If they declare allegiance to ISIS and are waving a gun around threatening people, yes, in a heartbeat. Last year the NSW Police shot and killed a ice-addled young woman, but you don’t think they should shoot self-declared terrorists who have people hostage.

    I assume you are just a troll and not serious.

    Oh and here are the NSW self-defence laws:

    A person carries out conduct in self-defence if and only if the person believes the conduct is necessary:
    (a) to defend himself or herself or another person, or
    (b) to prevent or terminate the unlawful deprivation of his or her liberty or the liberty of another person, …
    and the conduct is a reasonable response in the circumstances as he or she perceives them.

    If an ISIS supporter had my family held hostage at gun point I’d shoot him on sight and would be totally right to do so.

  95. Leigh Lowe

    It could have Leigh, no doubts. Audacity and the unexpected will win the day, and it is only limited by imagination. That is why we are, where we are.
    There was several really good options available.

    The missing ingredient was ‘will and resolve’.

  96. Mater

    Leigh, I’ll caveat my last comment by reinforcing the fact that the last resort is the Emergency Action. No time to set up loops, etc, and giving him even 5 seconds notice as they approach the door would cost lives (Hostage or Assaulter).
    No, the feed should have been stopped from the get go. Completely restrict his situational awareness to the four walls he inhabits, and let him go mad with paranoia.
    If not for the TV feed, could other activities have been undertaken during the siege, which would have improved the outcome?

  97. Roger means well,
    I’m sure Mique Bin Laden is really a nice type of “guy”.

    But: I don’t care about Monis, his life, his dramas, or his “rights”.
    I don’t care about revenge, bloodlust, or trial by a jury.
    I care about the right of Aussies to go about quiet enjoyment of a cup of hot chocolate in a café in the CBD.

    There was only One consideration:
    What action was required to ensure the soonest possible safety of the hostages?

    Everything, every action, every hypothesis, every suggestion, should have gone through that One filter.

    If the answer was to shoot Monis asap, then so be it.
    Not because of bloodlust, revenge, trial-by-police, interests of justice, or anything except ensuring the safety of the hostages.

  98. Btw: The correct answer was to shoot Monis dead asap.

  99. jupes

    Jupes, you are advocating something that mirrors a police state,

    No. I am advocating that we kill our enemies before they kill Australians.

    …and neither I nor any sane person would support such a thing, particularly anyone with military experience.

    Your lame attitude explains why the ADF is now totally incapable of victory on the battlefield.

    That is why, in peacetime at least, the ADF has taken great care to weed out psychopaths for whom the sort of bullshit you seem to favour would be routine.

    Oh that’s right. Morrison told them to “Get out!”.

    That’s why it’s still an organisation (Morrison notwithstanding) sane and decent people can still serve with a clear conscience.

    Do you march in uniform in the gay mardi-gras Mique?

  100. Andreas

    Apparently we have the right to take people hostage at gun point, who knew! Everyone just has to stand around and hope they don’t shoot.

    Sorry, but rightly as soon as someone points a gun at someone else and threatens their life they have signed away any rights they have to not be summarily shot and neutralised.

  101. cam

    The name – suppressed Police Commander would or should have known Monis was on bail for accessory after the fact of his current girlfriend murdering his wife by setting her alight.
    They should have known Monis had no intention of negotiating his way out of Lindt alive as Monis knew he was up for a long stretch in prison and Monis had no intention of living to enjoy his upcoming incarceration.
    With this knowledge, why wait until the inevitable death of a hostage to take action as Monis had already shown that others’ lives meant nothing to him.
    In such situations, it must be apparent to any future hostages that they are on their own , and need to escape or disable such a hostage taker themselves.

  102. Sorry, but rightly as soon as someone points a gun at someone else and threatens their life they have signed away any rights they have to not be summarily shot and neutralised.

    I said that on Facebook last night (without using any trigger or swear words) and woke up this morning to an inbox message from Facebook informing me I had been deleted for “inappropriate” content.

  103. Senile Old Guy

    The Police Forward Commander, whose name has been suppressed, made the stunning admission during his third day in the witness stand at the Sydney siege inquest. “Three people lost their lives because of me, my decision, I can’t change that,” he told the inquest.

    “Every day I think about that … I rack through my head, what could I have done differently. But I could never mitigate the risk of the bomb.” The inquest had previously heard police believed Monis had a bomb in his backpack and a detonator in his hand, and they held that belief right up until a bomb squad entered the cafe after the siege.

    Thoughts?

  104. Habib

    If he’s got both paws on the weapon he’s not utilizing a deadman switch, unless he can operate it with his dick. .338 lapua would’ve confirmed this.

  105. Andreas

    “Every day I think about that … I rack through my head, what could I have done differently. But I could never mitigate the risk of the bomb.”

    Fair enough, but then why the bullshit that they couldn’t shoot Monis because he had ‘rights’? And why not pass it on to counter terrorism forces who could better deal with the possibility of a bomb.

  106. Senile Old Guy

    Blair is on the case:

    An extraordinary revelation from the inquest into 2014’s Martin Place siege:

    The police commander who held off ordering tactical officers to storm the Lindt cafe until after hostage Tori Johnson was killed has told an inquest gunman Man Haron Monis “had the same rights as anyone else”, prompting the victim’s mother to charge out of the courtroom, calling the officer “an absolute disgrace”.

    Accurate call. If anything, a little too polite.

  107. Mater

    “Every day I think about that … I rack through my head, what could I have done differently. But I could never mitigate the risk of the bomb.”

    Assuming he did have a bomb, the police thought that he was there to be talked down and have it confiscated? If he did have one, he would have had a plan to let it off at some stage. All the more reason to disrupt his plan. The sooner, the better.

  108. Stan

    We are f*cked. The long march through our institutions is complete. Also see “Safe Schools Coalition” takeover at Cheltenham Girls High School in the news today – sex grooming and child abuse approved by the government. And you cannot say “girls” at a Girls’ School.

  109. Leigh Lowe

    The inquest had previously heard police believed Monis had a bomb in his backpack and a detonator in his hand, and they held that belief right up until a bomb squad entered the cafe after the siege.

    See Habib’s comment and also mine at 1:02.
    That is a bullshit story invented in retrospect to justify inaction.
    From what I have read of the evidence there is almost no contemporaneous discussion of bombs except that the possibility was canvassed early in the day. By the evening it had dropped off the radar, and the first escapees from the café had been interviewed and largely confirmed that he had no such device.

  110. Tator

    This inquiry is showing some systemic failures in the way NSW Police manage critical incidents. It should be a lesson to all the policing services in that in incidents like this one, information flows and management are absolutely critical and you need to get the right information to the right people.
    A big statement in both military and policing circles is “situational awareness” and it appears that many levels of both tactical and strategic command had none whatsoever. People in the tactical command post did not have access to video feeds, people at the state command post were not getting the correct info in a timely manner. This is an issue that is not uncommon in all Australian Police Services. Up until around 2010, SAPOL were using a manual information management system with carbon paper. I spent 6 months in 2004 researching systems to replace it and it took 6 years to approve and roll out my recommendations. I am not sure what NSW uses, but I suspect that it may be similar to either process, and if it is still the manual system, it is totally understandable why the system failed and bad decisions were made.
    As for the Aid to the Civil Powers authorization, from my training, the Civil Authority makes a request for assistance and it is up to the military to decide on how that is provided. Having been through numerous NCCT courses and exercises, the perceived level of threat required before most services call in the military is actually pretty high, ie multiple organised armed offenders. Most of the state police tactical groups believe they are capable of dealing with single gunman. Many incidents in SA have been resolved just by STAR group members without having to call in the military every time an armed offender holes up in a building. It appears that the NSW hierarchy believed their TAC group was capable considering the information available. It may be a decision that was hastily made and when further info like the glass impeding their snipers capabilities become available, it should have been reviewed. But it will be interesting to see who wears the pineapple insertion in the end because someone made a bad call.

  111. H B Bear

    A LOL moment as a Blair reader helps out Mrs Simon Crean out with her dilemma –

    ABC newsreader Juanita Phillips faces a difficult journalistic assignment:
    Trying to avoid the odious term “honour killing” in ABC news at 7. It deeply offends many of us yet there is no widely accepted alternative.
    Let’s assist. What might be an acceptable ABC term for the murder of a young woman by family members of a certain faith?

    Factfinder – Mo-mestic Violence.

  112. Stan

    Will be interesting when they have to accept boys who identify as girls.

  113. Senile Old Guy

    That is a bullshit story invented in retrospect to justify inaction.
    From what I have read of the evidence there is almost no contemporaneous discussion of bombs except that the possibility was canvassed early in the day. By the evening it had dropped off the radar, and the first escapees from the café had been interviewed and largely confirmed that he had no such device.

    That’s my reading. I followed events fairly closely and my memory is also that there was no evidence of him having a bomb.

  114. The ethos of the pllice is to arrest the wrongdoer.

    The ethos of the military is to kill the enemy.

    How do we define terrorist hostage takers?

    When that question comes up, the Lawyers will all buy new BMWs.

  115. Mique

    Senile Old Guy asks for “thoughts”.

    Wishful thinking, SOG. Lots of name-calling, lots of GI Joe posturing, but very little rational discussion of the realistic legal options actually available to the poor bastards tasked with the job.

    Waving an ISIS flag around even with hostages taken does not make Man Monis a terrorist liable to be shot out of hand, no matter how many people in here or elsewhere piously believe that it ought to do. A decision way above the pay grade of the operational cops on the scene, or any cops at all, is required for that to occur.

    A small history lesson might help in understanding why the civil power does not hastily call out the military. People of a certain age might remember (how could we forget) a certain Hawke Government Attorney-General called Gareth Evans, henceforth referred to as Biggles. On one sunny weekend in Canberra, Biggles thought it would be a fine idea to send a Mirage fighter aircraft over the Franklin River on what was intended “merely” to be o photo-recce mission to ensure that the evil Tasmanians were not furtively working on the Damned Dam. Saying, yessir, no sir, three bags full, sir, the Duty Officer at Air Force Office immediately sent the “order” downstream and the sortie was launched and completed with rare efficiency.

    Before the film could even be developed, let alone interpreted, the Tasmanian Government, the Federal Opposition, the media and Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all went ballistic. How dare the RAAF carry out a raid on Tasmania, a constituent part of the Australian nation. How dare Biggles exceed his authority to order such a raid without consultation with the Defence Minister and the Federal cabinet. How dare a relatively junior Air Force officer blindly authorise such an action without reference to ADF commanders. All good and fair questions with no defensible answers.

    Needless to say, there were consequences. Biggles went on to bigger and brighter things, as did everyone at the top of the Departmental and government food chain. The offending RAAF group captain who was just following what he thought were lawful commands, was not charged with any offence, but he was given a severe bollocking, andhis promotion prospects were henceforth non- existent.

    Whether we like it or not there are laws about such things.

  116. Tim Neilson

    But it will be interesting to see who wears the pineapple insertion in the end because someone made a bad call.
    Racists, shock jocks, white conservative Christians, Tony Abbott, probably libertarians (because they favour liberalised gun laws, even though in fact we don’t have them), Islamophobes…
    You know the drill, Tator.

  117. DrBeauGan

    So let’s get this right. An armed man is threatening hostages with a gun. The cops decline to shoot him because a. He might have a bomb and b. He has rights.

    Doesn’t anybody think these two arguments are a bit contradictory?

  118. Snoopy

    Don’t Bogart that joint, Mique.

  119. Tim Neilson

    Mique
    #2095378, posted on July 20, 2016 at 3:09 pm
    the realistic legal options
    Andreas has explained them above.
    Waving an ISIS flag around even with hostages taken does not make Man Monis a terrorist liable to be shot out of hand,
    What possible grounds could you have for such an assertion? They knew he had a gun, which you neglect to mention. It’s not hindsight to say that an ISIS flag plus a gun plus hostages equals clear and present danger to the lives of law abiding citizens.
    How dare the RAAF carry out a raid on Tasmania, a constituent part of the Australian nation. How dare Biggles exceed his authority to order such a raid without consultation with the Defence Minister and the Federal cabinet. How dare a relatively junior Air Force officer blindly authorise such an action without reference to ADF commanders. All good and fair questions with no defensible answers.
    None of which is remotely relevant to the suggestion that lawful processes should have been followed to get the ADF to save Tori Johnson’s life.

  120. Senile Old Guy

    …a certain Hawke Government Attorney-General called Gareth Evans, henceforth referred to as Biggles.

    Let’s not sully the honourable name of ‘Biggles’ by attaching it to one G Evans.

    And, having read almost every Biggles book written by ‘Captain’ WE Johns, I reckon Biggles would have shot the terrorist, had he not surrendered immediately.

  121. I reckon Biggles would have shot the terrorist, had he not surrendered immediately.

    Only if Marcel Brissac didn’t beat him to it.
    Gimlet would have been even quicker.

  122. 1. No amount of legislation can cover every eventuality.
    2. Sheer common sense could have told the head copper that the situation was out of his control.
    3. That the head copper didn’t realise this meant he should have been removed from the scene.
    4. I’m not impressed by the amount of legalistic bullshit being spouted here.
    5. Monis should have been shot and killed at the very first opportunity at the scene.

  123. I’m not impressed by the amount of legalistic bullshit being spouted here.

    Rule #1 of the law:
    When an incident is unfolding, a straight right counts for more than even the most robust of legal arguments.

  124. Myrddin Seren

    NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione’s wife and daughter in Lindt cafe before siege began

    NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione has revealed his own wife and daughter had been inside the Lindt cafe at Martin Place just before Monday’s siege began.

    He said his wife and daughter had been inside the cafe on Monday morning and were shown around the store by its manager Tori Johnson – one of two victims of the siege – and left an hour before the hostage situation began.

    In an alternate reality, where Monis reached the Lindt Cafe an hour earlier than he did in this plane, one wonders how his rights would have been respected if his hostages included the police commissioner’s wife and daughter ?

  125. Not on the Left

    I prefer the Harry Callahan approach; shoot first and ask questions later!
    His “rights” shouldn’t even come into consideration if innocents are at risk, to hell with what lawyers and civil libertarians (who would all be desperately running the other way if faced by the likes of Man Monis) have to say.

  126. Notafan

    I had no doubt at the time that Man Monis wanted the Prime Minister on the line so he could execute a hostage on the air. Maximum humiliation for Australia.

    In an any case the police should have entered as soon as Monis discharged his weapon.

    I also hope that in the future any hostage taker declaring for islamic state or even allah akbah gets killed at first opportunity.

    Why should they be given five hours to torture and kill their victims which is what happened to the mostly Italians murdered in Bangladesh a couple of weeks ago.

  127. Empire

    In an alternate reality, where Monis reached the Lindt Cafe an hour earlier than he did in this plane, one wonders how his rights would have been respected if his hostages included the police commissioner’s wife and daughter ?

    The body count would have been 1 instead of 3.

  128. Empire

    Why should they be given five hours to torture and kill their victims which is what happened to the mostly Italians murdered in Bangladesh a couple of weeks ago.

    Now we know victims were tortured and mutilated at Bataclan Theatre. The headloppers have escalated to a new level of barbarity. Rapid neutralisation of perps should be the new norm in response. But it won’t be.

  129. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    In an alternate reality, where Monis reached the Lindt Cafe an hour earlier than he did in this plane, one wonders how his rights would have been respected if his hostages included the police commissioner’s wife and daughter ?

    Two Commando would have been there pronto, and Man Moris would cease to exist soon after.

  130. Makka

    How piss weak a society we have become when we actually take note of those who speak up for these fkn barbarians. They deserve derision and to be ignored.

    Monis should have been put down like a dog at the first available moment. If plod couldn’t do it, that coward Baird should have called in the SAS CT and handed over immediately. Being the glory seeking slimeball he is , he couldn’t pass up the opportunity of wasting a good crisis and all that camera time. The innocents in that café had more courage than the NSW Police in handling Monis. No wonder that poor woman was so upset, hearing the official respect accorded to a low life scum like Monis.

  131. Dr Faustus

    The Forward Commander “could never mitigate the risk of the bomb“. That is, until he ordered the entry party to go in and top Man Monis after he quite unexpectedly started shooting at hostages – then, after the fact, he could.

    As an aside, presumably the assaulters evidence shows they had been briefed on the risk and went in with the expectation of being shredded by the blast. I don’t recall any of that in the reporting.

  132. Senile Old Guy

    What if the army fucked up?

    What if they didn’t?

  133. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    What if the army fucked up?

    Difficult to imagine they could have done worse then NSW coppers.

  134. Makka

    “What if the army fucked up?”

    The Govt could look mourners and family in the eye and honestly say they did their best with the best we had. Instead , the Govt and NSWPOL are now looking like the shallow goofballs they are except this time people have lost their lives.

  135. rich

    When a criminal pulls out a gun and threatens to kill others, they have initiated force and have forfeited their right to live. They have given permission for law enforcement to use lethal force to stop the criminal’s application of lethal force.

    The one thing the US has right- if you are going to pull a gun on someone, you better kill them and better have a good reason to. Otherwise don’t pull guns on people or threaten their lives.

  136. ella

    “If someone is in the process of committing a crime, a serious crime, as Monis was, that person can be subjected to a lawful ­response,” the president of the NSW Council for Civil Liberties, solicitor Stephen Blanks, said. “A lawful response enables the police to use all necessary force in order to bring the commission of the crime to an end and to arrest the offender. The police don’t have a right to kill a person who is committing an offence unless the police or somebody else is being seriously threatened and there is no reasonable alternative to the use of lethal force.”

    “A Sydney criminal lawyer put forward a similar interpretation, and said Australia should be glad its police do not adopt the practice of being more inclined to kill ­hostage-takers, even it if meant people were likely to be hurt.

    It appears Stephen Banks and ‘a Sydney criminal lawyer’ understand the term ‘seriously threatened’ differently from the hostages; and any Australian with a functioning brain watching the debacle stretch painfully out to the bitter and deadly end.

    Andreas at 1.42pm, on our right to self-defence.

    “Oh and here are the NSW self-defence laws:

    A person carries out conduct in self-defence if and only if the person believes the conduct is necessary:
    (a) to defend himself or herself or another person, or
    (b) to prevent or terminate the unlawful deprivation of his or her liberty or the liberty of another person, …
    and the conduct is a reasonable response in the circumstances as he or she perceives them.”

    if and only if is a ‘biconditional’. A biconditional statement is defined to be true whenever both parts have the same truth value.

    It is not even if someone gets hurt.

    My interpretation of the statements is that Stephen Banks and ‘ a Sydney criminal lawyer’ don’t understand the law in Australia.

  137. wreckage

    Free speech: not a right.
    Taking hostages at gunpoint: apparently a protected right.

  138. thefrolickingmole

    Lets look at it slightly different.

    Julia Gillard is still PM.
    Monis takes her and her front bench hostage.
    How many shots go off before you enter to save them?

    In reality if it had been a Pollie taken hostage do you think the same amount of tooth sucking would have been going on about Monis’ feelings?

  139. Peewhit

    First thought, David Hicks probably gets down on his knees every night and gives thanks that he was worth some US dollars to the Northern Alliance arrestors. Second thought is that if any of the hostages had any weapon they would have been able to kill Man Monis without charge. At any time this is a truth then the police, whose main job is to keep the peace, should hand over the job to the armed forces whose job is to commit murder.

  140. jupes

    Waving an ISIS flag around even with hostages taken does not make Man Monis a terrorist

    FMD. Mique has reached peak stupid.

    With attitudes like that, no doubt he is well on his way up the ADF leadership ladder.

  141. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    First thought, David Hicks probably gets down on his knees every night and gives thanks that he was worth some US dollars to the Northern Alliance arrestors

    Ten thousand dollars, IIRC.

  142. ella

    “Waving an ISIS flag around even with hostages taken does not make Man Monis a terrorist..”

    O.K. You have proposed that a Muslim waving an ISIS flag, carrying weapons, threatening to murder every person in the building ‘ does not make’ Man Moris a terrorist’.

    If these evil actions don’t make the Muslim a terrorist, then what does it make him?

    The interpretation is open. Why not try …..err “I think it’s worth sitting on the pavement while hostages die to sift through all the categories.”

    If Monis is not a terrorist then there is the possibility that he may be a bunny rabbit.

  143. Notafan

    I think some people thought the protocols that apply to a ‘domestic’hostage taker to an enthusiastic recent Sunni convert who was in a nothing left to lose space.

    Islam 101 dying in the cause of jihad comes with a 100% money back guarantee of a spot in jannah. From the first drop of martyr blood all your sins are forgiven and up up up you go.

    Perhaps the muslim sensitivity training at police college didn’t cover that bit.

  144. Snoopy

    Julia Gillard is still PM.
    Monis takes her and her front bench hostage.
    How many shots go off before you enter to save them?

    Nineteen. And hope Mar’n Ferguson was left till last.

  145. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Nineteen. And hope Mar’n Ferguson was left till last.

    Nineteen. And hope Joe Ludwig was left until last.

  146. Snoopy

    And hope Joe Ludwig was left until last.

    Why would you want to save him?

  147. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Why would you want to save him?

    Did the maths wrong. My bad. I had him left alive, watching all the comrades perish, until it was his turn.

  148. .

    Makka
    #2095480, posted on July 20, 2016 at 4:36 pm

    “What if the army fucked up?”

    The Govt could look mourners and family in the eye and honestly say they did their best with the best we had. Instead , the Govt and NSWPOL are now looking like the shallow goofballs they are except this time people have lost their lives.

    That’s a good response.

  149. Piett

    Can I pose a counter-factual?

    Say Monis had never mentioned anything to do with Islam, IS, or black flags. He finds some other topic to rant about — but had otherwise behaved exactly the same. In that case, should the SAS have been called in? And should he have been immediately shot?

    I presume NSWPOL had intel people who would have pointed out that Monis’ behaviour was not standard textbook IS. IS doesn’t normally fuck around with hostages, flags, and demands to speak to the Prime Minister. They just start killing people immediately, and only stop when they are killed.

    So under those circumstances, it was surely understandable for NSWPOL to decide that they would treat it as a criminal situation, and keep responsibility with themselves.

    The alternative is to let the hostage-taker be the one who decides whether he gets a Police or ADF response. If he shouts the magic words “Islamic State”, he gets the ADF, otherwise he gets the police. But I don’t think the hostage-taker should be the one to make that decision.

  150. Mater

    Julia Gillard is still PM.
    Monis takes her and her front bench hostage.

    Conroy would then have something else to worry about…other than his ‘nuked milk’.
    Emerson could have put the experience to music.
    Albanese could have plagiarised something from ‘Olympus has Fallen’.

  151. duncanm

    Three people lost their lives because of me, my decision, I can’t change that

    The problem was not the decision – it was the complete lack of decisions (and subsequent actions) prior to Monis forcing their hand.

  152. “What if the army fucked up?”

    Army: Match practice in the ‘stan on similar situations x 52 in the previous few months.
    NSWPlod: Never seen anything like it (source: Name redacted NSWPOL officer at the inquest)
    Army: Within a couple of hours had obtained plans of the Lindt café building & erected a copy inside a hangar and practicing entry drills.
    NSWPlod: Within 10 hours couldn’t manage to switch on TV set in their …er.. “command” post, couldn’t be bothered reading a psych profile on the perp, discovered their radios had flat batteries or something, the commanders went to bed and the boys on the ground weren’t game to go in even after Monis began shooting at hostages. He had to start killing them before they got their arse into gear.

    Someone just try to tell me the army would have done worse. Try to tell me the OIC would have gone to bed after a few hours coz he got bored.

  153. I presume NSWPOL had intel people who would have pointed out that Monis’ behaviour was not standard textbook IS.

    Lol. This is NSW police yer talkin’ about.
    They didn’t even have someone to tell them to switch on a TV set.

  154. Aussiepundit

    The police forward commander managing the Lindt siege was never going to send officers into the cafe until someone was killed as he feared the gunman had a backpack bomb.

    They admitted today they were waiting for a hostage to die before they took action.

    Moral bankruptcy.

  155. Aussiepundit

    and by the way, all this stuff about “we thought he had a bomb so we did nothing” is bullshit.

    The real reason they didn’t act was because they were trying to protect “all” lives in the cafe, including Monis. They wanted to catch him alive… even if that meant increasing the risk of hostage deaths.

    Whether he had a bomb or not, the only strategy that offered at least a chance of saving all the hostages was to act decisively. Any other strategy was guaranteed to result in at least some hostage deaths.

  156. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    So under those circumstances, it was surely understandable for NSWPOL to decide that they would treat it as a criminal situation, and keep responsibility with themselves.

    And accept total responsibility for the rock show that followed….I’m sorry, but having decided to treat it as a criminal situation, declining Army offers of assistance, then NSW police OWN the rock show that followed.

  157. Andreas

    Say Monis had never mentioned anything to do with Islam, IS, or black flags. He finds some other topic to rant about — but had otherwise behaved exactly the same. In that case, should the SAS have been called in? And should he have been immediately shot?

    You can potentially negotiate with, e.g. an aggrieved father. But if he’s a Muslim terrorist – call the counter terrorism squad. You can’t negotiate with a fanatic.

    I presume NSWPOL had intel people who would have pointed out that Monis’ behaviour was not standard textbook IS. IS doesn’t normally fuck around with hostages, flags, and demands to speak to the Prime Minister. They just start killing people immediately, and only stop when they are killed.

    They’ve taken many hostages in e.g. Syria and Iraq and paraded them before killing them. It’s not that unusual for Islamic terrorists to take hostages.

    (The reason he demanded flags btw was because the media was saying he had nothing to do with ISIS and he wanted to make it clear he was doing this for ISIS)

  158. Andreas

    The alternative is to let the hostage-taker be the one who decides whether he gets a Police or ADF response. If he shouts the magic words “Islamic State”, he gets the ADF, otherwise he gets the police. But I don’t think the hostage-taker should be the one to make that decision.

    If they claim to be a terrorist, dress like a terrorist and act like a terrorist, send in the counter terrorism squad. It’s not difficult. That’s what they’re there for.

  159. Leo G

    They admitted today they were waiting for a hostage to die before they took action.
    Moral bankruptcy.

    It’s not clear how that peculiar admission implies that the police violated the values which they claim guide their actions in operations like this. The long wait ultimately led to the escape of most of the hostages. Yes, that triggered the murder of Johnson, but Monis had already indicated that he was acting on behalf of IS, suggesting he was committed to murder at some stage.

  160. Occam's Blunt Razor

    Mique
    #2095133, posted on July 20, 2016 at 11:30 am

    In my nearly 30 years in the Service, I can’t recall an occasion where the military was brought in aid to the civil power other than in the aftermath of the Hilton bombing.

    Outside of natural disasters like the queensland floods and Black Saturday Bushfires there are two others:

    Tampa

    Pong Su (A mate of mine was the SASR Troop Leader)

  161. Occam's Blunt Razor

    Oops – sorry about the formatting.

  162. Tator

    Snoopy / Z2KA,
    why count, just wait until the tango runs out of ammo and then give him a medal 🙂

  163. Tator

    Over the past 27 years, I have seen the evolution of SAPOL tactics when dealing with armed offenders who are bailed up in a stronghold siege. It went from full on DA’s from the word go to cordon and call and since just before Martin Place, they started bringing back active shooter regimes. Much of this evolution has been due to events such as the McManus shooting in the Barossa Valley and international best practices.
    From having a look at various media reports, Martin Place appears to be the first “ISIS” related incident to be a stronghold siege and not an active shooter situation like the rest of their attacks. On top of this, there was a fair bit of psychobabble about this being an attempt by Monis to build street cred for when he went to prison.
    So to me the failings have been:
    Poor decision making all the way up the chain of command.
    Poor intel, nothing has been said about what was done to ascertain whether Monis had the capability to obtain an IED
    Poor psych advice, maybe updating knowledge base to include Islamic belief structures and fundamentalism.
    poor tech support, how is it a service with resources of NSW Police couldn’t get a TV feed to their TCP. SAPOL has people with the tech skills to jury rig basically any feed to our POC from TV satellite feeds to Adelaide City Council CCTV coverage.

    The coronial findings will come back with the following recommendations:
    1. Clear and concise criteria for Aid to the Civil Powers authorization with regards to declared terrorism incidents. No more testosterone driven we are capable crap. Define specific capabilities and ensure excellence in standards for those capabilities – not just competence.
    2. Improved tech capabilities to forward command posts and legal authorities to cover live broadcast media suppression in times of life threatening incidents.
    3. A more than capable Crisis Information Management System which allows the free flow of information to those who need it and logs who gets what info and what decisions are made. SAPOL uses one which has the capacity to run a state wide emergency with numerous forward control posts where the forward commander and his team can run things with every ESO state control centre overseeing it and supporting it and the State emergency committee which is the politicians getting contemporaneous information at the same time about what is being done.
    BTW, it was my baby as I spent 6 months researching what was out there and we got one off the shelf which more than covered the capabilities we needed and was also the most cost effective due to its single licensing structure where we could hang as many access points as our IT infrastructure could handle onto the one system as it was web based.

    Whether the coronial hearing brings out changes to strong hold siege tactics or not is yet to be determined. But the decision making processes and information distribution processes will be looked at in great detail as that is what the Coroner is examining in close detail.

  164. rickw

    Mique,

    You might notice that the Police didn’t use any of the shit excuses you’ve been spouting, they just said this:

    “I can’t ignore Man Monis as an individual, he had the same rights as anyone else.”

    The hostages don’t even rate a mention, weren’t even part of the calculation. They were dedicated to ensuring that Monis wasn’t killed, but for everyone else, not so much.

    It’s one thing to have fucked up the operation, it’s an entirely different thing to have fucked up the operation and have it founded on such a ludicrous premise.

    Their focus should have been on ensuring that dozens of innocent people survived, their focus however seems to have been on ensuring the survival of the animal that created the situation.

    The confluence of this wrong headed approach was that their shambolic resources were left responding to Monis’s initiatives, not the other way round.

  165. wreckage

    Piett, surely the possibility of a terrorist BEING a terrorist must be given overriding urgency?

    Scenario one: he is a terrorist, you treat him like a criminal, 100 people die.
    Scenario two: he was probably just a violent bastard who might not have killed anyone, but we can’t know for sure because he’s a fucking corpse.

    I cannot see an outcomes-based assessment favouring 1 as a possible outcome, let alone a probable one, but let’s be absolutist and nihilist at once, and declare all lives have a value of one unit: it requires the certainty (or, equal likelihood) of 100 dead regular bastards to outweigh the certainty (or, equal likelihood) of one mass murdering terrorist.

    But you may say, we cannot allow the Police to develop a culture or policy of shooting people dead as a routine method of law enforcement? No, absolutely. Which is why you call in the military to do that.

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