Wasn’t me

So the Canberra circus rolls on for another day – today Niki Savva is making excuses for Barnaby:

It is not Joyce’s fault that New Zealand has a ridiculous law that not even New Zealanders understand, or that the Australian Constitution is not as clear as it could be, or that the Labor Party plays dirty politics, but we are where we are …

Reminds me of that awesome song by Shaggy.

New Zealand’s citizenship laws are not so ridiculous that New Zealanders don’t understand them. The Australian constitution is quite clear on this point – perhaps the High Court’s reinterpretation isn’t that clear that even that point is debatable. The Labor party plays dirty politics … well yes, but even then it isn’t clear that determining whether MPs are legally elected isn’t dirty politics, that’s their job.

So what did Barnaby do?

Joyce checked with his parents before entering parliament, then again recently. They told him then and — now in their 90s — again that there was no question he was Australian.

Indeed – there is no question he Australian – there is also no question that he was a New Zealander too.  Now I’m sure his parents are lovely people, but perhaps on citizenship matters he should have consulted a lawyer. Just a thought.

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104 Responses to Wasn’t me

  1. Andore Jr.

    I wish the ATO was as forgiving when a taxpayer slips up!

  2. Goanna

    Politicians are at the regulations apex.

    Enforce the law and punish them, no quarter given.

  3. Roger

    Now I’m sure his parents are lovely people, but perhaps on citizenship matters he should have consulted a lawyer. Just a thought.

    Indeed; mind you, from Burke’s description, I suspect the ALP’s “rigorous screening” amounts to no more than obtaining anecdotal evidence from parents/grandparents where there is doubt.

    And most of them are lawyers!

  4. v_maet

    Would be interesting to see what Savva wrote about he claims of Abbott being a dual citizen

  5. Wozzup

    Strikes me as a tad harsh about both Salva and Joyce. Every case is different though until now I had assumed that even with a parent who had citizenship of another country, an Australian born child would need to themselves apply before they would be regarded as a citizen of that other country. I had not considered that some countries seem to make an Australian born person, who happens to have a parent who is also one of their citizens (but who is also an Australian resident) to automatically be a citizen of that country without any further ado.
    For example in my own case I was Australian born but my father was a Hungarian with an Australian residency who later became an Australian citizen. The interesting and entirely unexpected possibility is that I may, in law, also be a Hungarian without ever knowing it or have applied for it. Hell, without ever considering it. I have no interest in standing for Federal Parliament and will never check the state of Hungarian law so it’s academic, but the point is I would never have thought this even possible. However, I might have considered I am entitled to apply for Hungarian citizenship and then be entitled to to take it up subject to jumping through the necessary hoops. But this is far from the same thing as being automatically a considered to be a Hungarian.

  6. Up The Workers!

    Barnaby Joyce.

    Mutton dressed up as Skippy!

  7. Up The Workers!

    ” I suspect the ALP’s “rigorous screening” amounts to no more than obtaining anecdotal evidence from parents/grandparents where there is doubt.

    And most of them are lawyers!”

    To Roger at 8.00am, lawyers or not, how many of the A.L.P.-types do you reckon would have even the first beginnings of a clue as to who their fathers actually were, in the first instance?

  8. Yohan

    This whole issue over citizenship should be determined on the basis of whether the Australian born person made active steps to claim the foreign citizenship. If they made no applications, or took no steps, they cannot be held responsible for the bureaucratic actions of another country they were not born in.

    This law is not being applied in a common sense manner. Its meant to stop foreign born people from entering politics unless they renounce their foreign citizenship ties. It was never meant to punish Australian born people because another country allows them reciprocal familial citizenship.

  9. alexnoaholdmate

    Mutton dressed up as Skippy!

    Beautiful stuff.

    One key difference between us and the Left. They don’t do humour.

    Everything is just too serious.

  10. Bruce of Newcastle

    Maybe after Barnaby is booted from Parliament he can go into broad acre farming.
    I suggest growing popcorn.
    Canberra is hugely increasing the market for that commodity.

  11. Of course Savva is ‘helping’ Turnbull. I wonder if Malcolm rings her on occasions such as these and thanks her for the support, or just tells her husband to pass it on. I love Barnaby, but it’s a bit rich. I suggest he stands in the by-election (he may be an Australian by then) and banishes Windsor forever.

  12. Nathan

    I want a comprehensive audit of all MP and Senator citizenship status completed by the AEC and reported publicly. I want to know their status when they nominated, their status when elected and their status today. Nothing less will satisfy me.

  13. Gorky

    Seems like a lot of bias from Savva and comments here. If its principle and not side then Yohan pretty much sums it up. Joyce’s father was not a New Zealand citizen when Joyce was born in Australia. To call home ineligible would be a sad joke.

  14. chrisl

    Are Barnaby’s children also New Zealand citizens?
    When does the link stop?

  15. Tel

    Politicians are at the regulations apex.

    Enforce the law and punish them, no quarter given.

    I have no doubt that if it was my tax return and I just overlooked some point that the government thought was very important then they would not be quick to forgive. If it was a small business filling in some stupid environmental regulations, thousands of pages of impact study or some such, they wouldn’t be quick to forgive a mistake there either.

  16. Robert Mc

    And now, stepping gingerly into the quagmire, is:

    Michael Keenan, Justice Minister

  17. Diogenes

    Wozzup
    It can get worse…
    I always assumed dad was Hungarian as he said he was my birth certificate even says he was born in Kommandó Hungary(!) and I know that I can ask for Hungarian citizenship, but as he was born in Transylvania lost to Romania by the Treaty of Trianon, he was actually a ‘kibaszott'(effing) Romanian (for a long time I though the country was called Kibaszotttromania), so without further ado, I discover, at age 58 I am also a kibaszottromanian. It is interesting that when I was born I wasn’t, but a 2001 law change restored dads citizenship and therefore mine, and this also extends to my son and his son (!). To claim my Hungarian birthright I actually need to go through an application process would differ from yours as I would claim through grandad rather than dad.

    I have made some enquiries and discovered that I am also Iranian through my Grandfather , and so is my son , and his son !

    (Bangs head on desk !)

  18. Ubique

    Isn’t it ironic in a society obsessed with emphasising the role of women that in all of the fuss over Barnaby’s father having been born in New Zealand that scant regard is paid to his mother, a sixth generation Australian.

    As has been pointed out previously, we wish Kim Jong-un would declare the whole parliament has been summarily granted North Korean citizenship, bringing down the whole house of cards and giving the High Court nowhere to go.

  19. Tel

    I am also Iranian through my Grandfather …

    I looked that one up, which is interesting. If you have Iranian citizenship then Iran will regard you as ONLY Iranian, regardless of anything else (they do not recognize dual nationality, nor do they automatically extinguish Iranian citizenship).

    In order to renounce this Iranian citizenship you must first do national service in Iran, and then also get permission (which they can arbitrarily refuse, and often do refuse).

  20. Grumpy Racist Homophobe

    One of my great grandparents was Bohemian. I guess that makes me a Czech citizen, and thus an EU citizen. I should therefore have automatic rights to UK citizenship.

  21. JB5

    Well, this quite frankly, BS, is putting important issues on the back-burner…..such as SSM….have to get our priorities right…

  22. Rabz

    I want a comprehensive audit of all MP and Senator citizenship status completed by the AEC and reported publicly. I want to know their status when they nominated, their status when elected and their status today. Nothing less will satisfy me.

    The chance of this happening, is of course, zero.

  23. Roger

    In order to renounce this Iranian citizenship you must first do national service in Iran, and then also get permission (which they can arbitrarily refuse, and often do refuse).

    Hello Sam Dastyari!

  24. Tel

    Hello Sam Dastyari!

    Yeah, interesting isn’t it? Largely depends on whether the High Court attempts to accurately defer to Iranian law, or whether they decide that near enough is good enough for Australia.

  25. Diogenes

    In order to renounce this Iranian citizenship you must first do national service in Iran, and then also get permission (which they can arbitrarily refuse, and often do refuse).

    In my case it gets a bit complicated as mum was born out of wedlock, but his family accepted her as one of them when she visited.

    One of my great grandparents was Bohemian. I guess that makes me a Czech citizen, and thus an EU citizen. I should therefore have automatic rights to UK citizenship.

    Depends on exactly where & when & the law + border changes since 1918 . 🙂 as you see from my post it can get complicated. Czech citizenship will get get you UK residency , nothing more

    UK descent extinguishes in one generation – Mrs Diogenes can claim UK citizenship through her mother, our son can’t.

  26. Roger

    Largely depends on whether the High Court attempts to accurately defer to Iranian law, or whether they decide that near enough is good enough for Australia.

    Under Australian law it comes down to the reasonableness of steps taken to renounce Iranian citizenship.

    In the case of Dastyari I suggest it is entirely reasonable that he should have to do military service in the Iranian army before we accept his bona fides.

    He’s young; he can come back.

  27. Deplorable

    I suggest he stands in the by-election (he may be an Australian by then) and banishes Windsor forever.

    He always was and is Australian , just because some loon country wants to claim you as their own does not make it so. At least Barnaby is Australian born and raised which cannot be said about quite a few of the greens/ left filth .

  28. stackja

    How many other NZ laws affect Australia?

  29. Helen

    There must be tens of thousands of Australians in the same position as Barnaby, with a NZ parent, given the rate of movement from NZ to Australia. That includes me and my siblings. I always knew it was possible to apply for NZ citizenship, but had no idea that you were actually legally a dual citizen without applying. I suspect most of the others thought the same.
    In rural areas there’s been some inter- marriage between Aborigines and Maori (many Maori shearers here). I wonder if children of those families knew they were dual citizens.
    I suspect this will lead to a tourist boom in NZ as we all decide it’s time we went home to check out our new country.

  30. Diogenes

    I want a comprehensive audit of all MP and Senator citizenship status completed by the AEC and reported publicly. I want to know their status when they nominated, their status when elected and their status today. Nothing less will satisfy me.

    How far back would one need to go ? Say my currently 4mo old grandson were to stand for parliament in 20 odd years time, because, as was pointed out above, Iranian citizenship does not extinguish , Iran could claim him as a citizen because his grandfathers grandfather was Iranian, and unless I take the time to instruct him on family history, or my son thinks it relevant to tell him , which he may or may not remember, he would never know.

    I think there is enough variety on the current cases before the HC to ensure some clarity of what exactly is regarded as falling foul of section 44;
    The born overseas is a no brainer (hello Mr Abbott, Mr Wong)
    Born overseas & otherwise unable to renounce because of unreasonable conditions (hello Sam Dastardly)
    Parent born OS who registered with foreign embassy unbeknownst to child (hello Sen Caravan & Barnaby? )
    Parent born OS with citzenship from country where Jus sanguinis applies (the Greek one) where you do nothing to register or otherwise make yourself known to authorities

    Nothing yet on a situation that I would face grandparent born & always resident in foreign land where Jus sanguinis and does not extinguish applies where you do nothing to register or otherwise make yourself known to authorities.

  31. Has anyone asked Malcolm how he feels at the moment? Is he wishing that this was all on Abbott’s lap?

  32. Diogenes

    He’s young; he can come back.

    I’m not – and I have done my time running through the trees yelling ‘bang’ 🙂

  33. Roger

    I’m not – and I have done my time running through the trees yelling ‘bang’ 🙂

    But you’re not sitting in the senate, Diogenes.

  34. Atoms for Peace

    Wouldn’t it be fun to go through the last 3 parliaments and see who fell foul of section 44..

  35. Diogenes

    If were to stand – which I had been considering

  36. the sting

    Surely Australian law must take/ have authority or precedence over foreign countries laws ?

  37. stackja

    I am told:

    You may be entitled to Irish citizenship

    Your answers indicate that you may be entitled to Irish citizenship because one of your grandparents was born on the island of Ireland. This entitlement is not affected by when or where you were born.
    To become an Irish citizen, you must first register yourself in the Foreign Births Register managed by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.
    Contact the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade

    To check if you are entitled to Irish citizenship, contact the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. (Do not contact Citizenship Division in the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service.)
    The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade will determine if you can be added to the Foreign Births Register, eg based on descent from a grandparent who was born in Ireland.
    If you are added to the register, you become an Irish citizen on the date of registration. You can then apply for an Irish passport.
    Contact the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade if you have any questions about citizenship based on descent from your grandparents.
    Dual citizenship

    Under Irish law, you are not required to give up citizenship of another country to become an Irish citizen.
    However, some countries do not allow dual citizenship, or place restrictions on it. You should check with the embassies of all countries where you already hold citizenship before applying in Ireland.
    Future generations

    You can safeguard the Irish citizenship of future generations by ensuring each generation continues to register in the Foreign Births Register before the birth of the next generation, ie your children (if any) must register so their children can register, etc.

  38. Tim Neilson

    Born overseas & otherwise unable to renounce because of unreasonable conditions (hello Sam Dastardly)

    No, if the odious little ponce wants to get on the Australian taxpayer-funded gravy train (with side benefits from the People’s Republic of China) he can do his Iranian national service and renounce his citizenship properly.

  39. Robbo

    “Are Barnaby’s children also New Zealand citizens?
    When does the link stop?”

    That is a question that needs to be answered. Does the link go on for ever and a day? I understand that Irish citizenship is available to foreigners if any of their grandparents were Irish. Does this mean that you are automatically regarded as an Irish citizen by Ireland and would be in breach of our Constitution if elected to Parliament? If that is so then its a lot of idiotic nonsense that needs to be sorted out quickly.

  40. The Deplorable Barking Toad

    And into the ring strolls Anthony Albanese.

    Tim “But Wait There’s More” on 2CC reckons that rub shop boy was told by his mother that his Italian father was dead.

    Some time after he entered parliament over 20 years ago, he found out he was alive and kicking in Italy!

  41. Judith Sloan

    Can Barnaby claim the NZ age pension which is universal?

  42. Robber Baron

    Is Ken Wyatt a dual citizen?

  43. Marcus

    Just repeal S.44. If Pauline Hanson is right, there were at least 60 potential dual citizens in 1998 during the Howard government, but so what? Which of those 60 was really some foreign sleeper agent? Is Barnaby secretly doing the bidding of New Zealand? Is Matt Canavan really taking orders from Italy?

    And when have we ever been at war with Great Britain or Canada, anyway?

    If the Senate doesn’t have the appetite for a full repeal, they should at least rework it so that you can’t be a dual citizen of a hostile country.

    And that’s before you even get to the question of why we’re letting New Zealand decide which among us is or isn’t a New Zealander anyway. As far as I’m concerned, they can pass all the laws they like – why should Australia be bound by them? If Australian law allows other countries’ “citizen by descent” equivalence with natural citizenship for people born here, then that law too needs to be amended.

  44. Louis Hissink

    Sinc.

    Are you hinting that Barnaby should have been omniscient? As well as his parents? Big ask, I think.

  45. Louis Hissink

    Barnaby is an indigenous Australian. Period.

  46. Diogenes

    To become an Irish citizen, you must first register yourself in the Foreign Births Register managed by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

    That is the kicker – Irish law is sensible – you must proactively claim your right , for other countries this is not the case

  47. Snoopy

    It would be a hoot if Pat Dodson has Irish citizenship.

  48. stackja

    Marcus
    #2471274, posted on August 17, 2017 at 9:41 am
    Just repeal S.44.

    No! Just stop the politics.

  49. Mother and Child – A farce in one act

    Scene:
    A house in Canberra

    Characters:
    A mother
    A child

    Mother: Darling, what would like to be when you grow up?
    Child: Mummy, I want to be a Minister in the Federal Parliament.
    Mother: Oh, why’s that?
    Child: Because I um…
    Mother: (Encouragingly) Come on sweetie, focus. You can do it.
    Child: Because Ministers um…
    Mother: (Increasingly frustrated) We’ve been through this a hundred times. Why do you want to be a minister?
    Child: Because… because… oh that’s right… because ministers are more important than parliamentary secretaries and I’m tired of being a parliamentary secretary!
    Mother: and…
    Child: and because IT’S MY TURN!
    Mother: Well done! Now hurry up, because your car is here to take you to Capitol Hill. And remember, I’ve tied 50 cents in the corner of your handkerchief so you can buy a treat in the Parliamentary Dining Room.
    Child:Thanks Mum. you’re the best.

  50. stackja

    Snoopy
    #2471288, posted on August 17, 2017 at 9:55 am
    It would be a hoot if Pat Dodson has Irish citizenship.

    No one will dare ask.

  51. Dave Owen

    Tel,
    I think you have come across an interesting situation. According to Michael Smith. the Iranian rules state that a person wanting to denounce Iranian citizenship must have served two years in the army. I wonder if Sam has fulfilled that condition The fact that he claims to have spent $25 000 may be meaningless if he has not fulfilled the conditions. He is the first person I would check

  52. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    No, if the odious little ponce wants to get on the Australian taxpayer-funded gravy train (with side benefits from the People’s Republic of China) he can do his Iranian national service and renounce his citizenship properly.

    Can anyone imagine the Persian Prince getting “his horoscope read to him” by some hardened Iranian Warrant Officer? “So RECRUIT Dastiyari? This country wasn’t good enough for your parents, was it? Well, your soul may belong to Mohammed, but your sorry ar%e belongs to me for TWO WHOLE YEARS! GETTIT? GOTTIT? GOOD!”

  53. Snoopy

    No one will dare ask.

    Every MP must be audited. It is intolerable that the people who make our laws refuse to prove that they comply with the constitution.

  54. Leo G

    Indeed – there is no question he Australian – there is also no question that he was a New Zealander too.

    There clearly is a question that Joyce was a New Zealand citizen.
    The relevant 1948 New Zealand law implies that a person is a New Zealand citizen either by birth or by registration. A NZ “citizen by descent” is not necessarily a NZ citizen.

    A “citizen by descent” must be registered to be a New Zealand citizen- with or without the permission of the person or the parent or guardian. If without permission, then the Minister must direct that “birth shall be deemed … to have been registered with his permission, notwithstanding that his permission was not obtained before the registration”. Either way, registration is necessary for citizenship.

    Barnaby has stated in Parliament that “the NZ government has no register recognising me as a NZ citizen. The government has taken legal advice from the solicitor general.”
    So what is the basis for the assertion that Barnaby Joyce is a New Zealand Citizen?

  55. old bloke

    Malcolm Turnbull’s mother left Australia to live and work in New Zealand, where she remarried. Did she have to take New Zealand citizenship, and if so, did Malcolm Turnbull, by default, aquire New Zealand citizenship?

    I like Cory Bernardi’s idea that Parliament should be shut down until the High Court rules. I hope the High Court takes several years to decide this matter.

  56. Sinclair Davidson

    Are you hinting that Barnaby should have been omniscient? As well as his parents? Big ask, I think.

    To the contrary – we now know that Barnaby knew there might be a problem and investigated the possibility of there being a problem, but was negligent about it. After reading Savva’s article, I can’t see how he can stay – I’m happy to believe that an Australian born person never imagined that they could have foreign citizenship. But Barnaby knew there might be a problem but did not exhaustively investigate the possibility.

  57. Sinclair Davidson

    There clearly is a question that Joyce was a New Zealand citizen.

    No – the New Zealand said he was, and by going through the renunciation process Barnaby admitted he was too.

  58. Dr Fred Lenin

    Do the gangrene and lieboral traitors have to renounce their u.n,communist global citizenship ? We are all bruddas innit ? You know the ones they want to destroy Anzac and Australia days and all semblance of being Austra;Ian ,reduce us all to big brother clones working for the glory of comrade soros and the crony capitalist . criminals Like Hitler and I .G.Faben etc.in Auschwitz .

  59. Leo G

    No – the New Zealand said he was, and by going through the renunciation process Barnaby admitted he was too.

    The question is one about the basis for the citizenship.
    If Joyce was a New Zealand citizen only by virtue of citizenship by descent, which is only a partial qualification for New Zealand citizenship, and yet he was never registered as a citizen, then what is the basis for his New Zealand citizenship?
    Note that citizenship by descent is a fact and not an entitlement (ie not something granted), so cannot be renounced- it is either true or false.

  60. Aynsley Kellow

    I think that it is fairly obvious that the High Court will resolve this matter by finding that on cannot have citizenship imposed by another state. Some are born citizens, some acquire citizenship and others have citizenship thrust upon them!
    Joyce (and Canavan, if the reported facts are accurate) have done nothing to seek to acquire citizenship, and have not sought to exercise any rights of the citizenship of which they were ignorant.
    The Constitution and our political system would be rendered unworkable if citizenship of another state could me imposed without consent on any Australian. I have previously used the example (which I have now seen picked up elsewhere) of DPRK granting citizenship to Australians. Indeed, Kim Jong-un could grant it to ALL Australians. Under these circumstances, NOBODY would be eligible to serve in Parliament, and no Parliament could be elected that might propose and pass legislation to amend s44.
    Clearly, the Court will have to find that the individual must be aware of their foreign citizenship and accept it, or seek it and accept it, or be reasonable presumed to aware of it through birth and not renounce it (Waters and Ludlam). One cannot have it thrust upon one without consent, if we are to have a workable Constitution.
    Let me turn to Sinclair’s statement that ‘New Zealand’s citizenship laws are not so ridiculous that New Zealanders don’t understand them.’ I beg to differ.
    I am a New Zealand citizen by birth and an Australian citizen by naturalisation (though my father was an Australian native), but I had no idea that my daughter – Australian born and raised, who has set foot in New Zealand once – is a New Zealand citizen. (She ribs me about the inferiority of all things NZ, so now I have started greeting her with ‘Kia ora!’). This ignorance comes despite having been born and raised in NZ and educated though to a PhD in Political Studies. The matter is simply never spoke about.
    So I think it is a huge (and heroically incorrect) leap on Sinclair’s part to suggest that Joyce might have ever imagined that he was a New Zealand citizen.
    The Court will have to find a practical solution to the mess, and should do so as a matter of urgency. But eligibility to sit in Parliament should not depend on the extraterritorial imposition of the citizenship laws of another country on Australian citizens who are unaware of the citizenship thus extended — and, for practical reasons, it cannot.

  61. Peter

    Citizenship by descent is a complete problem in relation to this issue. I posted above and part of that post says that I (like, I suspect, many people) believed that to become a citizen by descent of your parent you must first apply for it.
    But I researched this further in relation to my situation (a Hungarian father resident in Australia) and the research revealed that if you have a Hungarian parent, you ARE a Hungarian citizen and the place of your birth does not matter. I certainly had not anticipated this – I had merely believed that I would be entitled to take up Hunagrian citizenship but first had to apply for it. Surely then this is the proper test for the High Court in Joyce’s case who’s situation is analogous – did he or did he not act to take up is technically conferred NZ citizenship?

  62. Louis Hissink

    Sinc.

    Hmm, so I had better check my own status then.

    According to the law of the Netherlands, I am a Dutch citizen by law if my father was a Dutch citizen at the time of my birth if this was before 1 Jan 1984. I arrived in Bandung, NEI, now Indonesia. I was ozzified during 1957 which does not necessarily mean I was dedutched.

    There goes my possible parliamentary career in Oz, then.

    Sigh… life can be so cruel.

  63. Sinclair Davidson

    So I think it is a huge (and heroically incorrect) leap on Sinclair’s part to suggest that Joyce might have ever imagined that he was a New Zealand citizen.

    Aynsley – I agree with most of what you say and I suspect the HC will rule along the lines you suggest. But I do disagree with that bit. We know Barnaby thought it because Savva tells us he asked his parents before he went into politics. Now maybe she is mistaken on that, but given her sources and who she is, I suspect not.

  64. Diogenes

    A “citizen by descent” must be registered to be a New Zealand citizen- with or without the permission of the person or the parent or guardian. If without permission, then the Minister must direct that “birth shall be deemed … to have been registered with his permission, notwithstanding that his permission was not obtained before the registration”. Either way, registration is necessary for citizenship.

    Was he actually registered ? Barnaby claims not. The renunciation is ‘just in case’.

    Thinks (strikes a a pose, waits for audience applause, not a sausing)! How many other children of Kiwis are sitting in parliament ? Lodge the paperwork to register them without their knowledge and the Kiwi govt has to accept it and they automatically become ineligible ! Do other countries have this clause? if so who else can we register (Ireland, Italy, Greece, Slovenia ) ?

    As I have pointed out under Romanian & Iranian law I am a citizen Jus sanguinis, in addition I can claim, should I choose(!) Hungarian as well, but atm afaik I am not regarded as Hungarian – I need to take some action – in the same way as UK, Irish & Kiwis must register

    Unless their intelligence services are actively hunting down and registering children born of citizens , neither the Romanian* or Iranian govts know I exist. Do/should I fall foul of section 44? And I have said I am now to old to do my compulsory military duty in Iran so I can renounce the latter, does my son have to do his duty so he can renounce? My grandson ?

    *A great uncle, was once the President of the World Transylvanians in Exile (or somesuch, it was 50 years ago) – he was the recipient of many threats from the Ceaușescu regime was threatened with treason charges should he every return, and dad was reasonably active in the Hungarian Church it is possible my name is on a musty security file somewhere.

  65. chrisl

    Louis You can enter parliament
    You just have to renounce you inner clog wog!

  66. StraightShooter

    Tony Burke has Irish heritage (which is conveniently scrubbed from the internet) but the following applies to him:

    “The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade will determine if you can be added to the Foreign Births Register, eg based on descent from a grandparent who was born in Ireland.

    If you are added to the register, you become an Irish citizen on the date of registration.

    You can then apply for an Irish passport.”

    Under S44 of the Australian Constitution the mere entitlement to foreign citizenship bars one from standing for Parliament:

    Extract from S44: “or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power”

    Tony Burke seems to be just as trapped as Barnaby Joyce and I think that the same would likely apply to a large number of MP’s and Senators.

  67. Aynsley Kellow

    Sinclair: fair point – if Savva’s account is accurate. Unless, of course (and assuming Diogenes is quoting the NZ law) he merely enquired if his father had registered him.

  68. Sinclair Davidson

    Yes – that we don’t know.

  69. stackja

    Sinclair Davidson
    #2471371, posted on August 17, 2017 at 11:57 am
    Yes – that we don’t know.

    Yes! We don’t know how many other countries have dual citizenship. And how you check and renounce.

  70. Louis Hissink

    This nationality mess could get interesting – it might mean that previous laws have not been properly passed at the time in our Federal Parliament.

    Oh why did I not do law and become a constitutional lawyer – I can sense fat fees appearing over the horizon.

  71. The BigBlueCat

    Sounds to me that some countries are “citizen shopping” without any action required by their potential citizens. Surely this is also a fault of those countries (New Zealand take note) that one should not merely be a citizen just because of descent, but that because of descent one is merely eligible to become a citizen and must apply for said citizenship.

    It will be very interesting to see how the High Court deals with this issue, and whether or not the individuals concerned are deemed “entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power” when the individuals concerned have never enforced those rights.

    But who knew that New Zealand could be thought of as a “foreign power”?? Under Section 6 of the Australian Constitution: The States shall mean such of the colonies of New South Wales, New Zealand, Queensland, Tasmania, Victoria, Western Australia, and South Australia, including the northern territory of South Australia, as for the time being are parts of the Commonwealth, and such colonies or territories as may be admitted into or established by the Commonwealth as States; and each of such parts of the Commonwealth shall be called a State.

  72. Sinclair Davidson

    We don’t know how many other countries have dual citizenship. And how you check and renounce.

    C’mon. It’s not hard. If you were born overseas, or a parent was born overseas you should check.

  73. Aynsley Kellow

    Louis – we could degenerate in to government by Ancestry.com!!

  74. Diogenes

    I arrived in Bandung, NEI, now Indonesia. I was ozzified during 1957 which does not necessarily mean I was dedutched.

    There goes my possible parliamentary career in Oz, then.

    You may have been dedutched see https://www.dualcitizenship.com/countries/netherlands.html

  75. Louis Hissink

    Aynsley,

    Degenerate? Surely going back to pre-1972 days would be better – then we could disappear all the Goughisms enacted since that time.

  76. Diogenes

    If you were born overseas, or a parent was born overseas you should check.

    Or grandparents, or great great grandparents ?

    Louis – we could degenerate in to government by Ancestry.com!!

    The AEC might turn into Reichrassenamt

    I suspect the High Court will come up with a form of words for a declaration to be submitted with your nomination along the lines of
    I (state your name) , do hereby forswear and abjure any claim to citizenship that I may be entitled to Jus Sanguinis .

    This could be enough to enough to skirt around Section 44

  77. Louis Hissink

    Diogenes,

    Seems I really have lost my Dutch citizenship – thanks for that.

  78. Dr Sir Major General

    If you were born overseas, or a parent was born overseas you should check.

    Checking just once or twice might not be enough because countries such as New Zealand craftily amend their laws, from time to time, to appropriate the citizens of other, better countries and then arrogantly insist that their citizenship laws supersede ours.
    Candidates for Parliament, before each election, should publicly renounce any other citizenship and declare that they repudiate and deny any citizenship or entitlement of citizenship of any other country and promise that they will never seek or accept any citizenship or entitlement of citizenship of any other country. A notice in any daily newspaper (with copies sent to all embassies and high commissions) ought to be sufficient.

  79. Aynsley Kellow

    Not a bad idea, O pre-nominally blessed one.

  80. Harald

    I am not sure what is unclear about this…

    At the time Barnaby was elected, he was a Kiwi or he was entitled to the related rights and privileges. NZ said so. Barnaby said so. There is no dispute about this.

    At the same time, Barnaby was elected, s44(i) of the Constitution was in effect. It stipulates the restriction that any person cannot sit in Parliament, who:

    (i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power

    This is cut and dry. Barnaby cannot sit in Parliament. And if the High Court finds differently, they have reinterpreted the Constitution to the extent we may as well abolish the referendum altogether as they will have turned a clear “No” into a “Yes”.

    The most important thing here is that the High Court, by way of their “interpretation”, does not usurp the power to effectively change the constitution – that is for the Australian people to decide per Referendum. The constitution determines the relationship between the state on the one hand, and the citizens on the other. It is crucial that the state does not unilaterally change parts of that agreement from No to Yes. That would cast a long dark shadow over the future.

    For Barnaby to sit in parliament legally, that requires:
    1. he renounces his Kiwi-ship, or a referendum to change the constitution or both.
    2. Barnaby to be re-elected

    This goes for quite a few of MP’s and Senators. The High Court should make their determination ASAP on all these cases.

    But in the meantime, on the balance of probabilities, our current Parliament is simply not constitutional and the legitimacy of the government is in doubt. Parliament should be suspended awaiting the HC’s decision regarding who’s out, and the government should go to caretaker mode until the HC’s decision.

    Then we will likely either go to by-elections or a federal election.

    And maybe this experience will furnish Barnaby with a newly found, very healthy reluctance to voting in favour of retrospective laws himself – provided he’s re-elected.

  81. The BigBlueCat

    Under S44, the issue may relate to “under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power” and how the High Court views “any acknowledgement”. Did the original authors of the Australian Constitution mean acknowledgement by the person? Or the external acknowledgement by a foreign power that might be made by a foreign power with or without the knowledge or acceptance by the person concerned?

    As others have noted, it would be entirely unworkable should foreign powers alone determine “any acknowledgement” since powers like DPRK could invalidate all Australians from becoming federal MP’s by passing their own citizenship law for Australians.

    Whether or not a person is “a subject or a citizen entitled to the rights or priveledges of a subject or a citizen of a foreign power” surely must come down to whether or not the person has done something to seek those entitlements and privileges – if they have not, they have no pecuniary or other interest in the foreign power and therefore no conflict with Australian interests.

    In any event, politicians must now make doubly sure of their situation even without a finding of the High Court.

    But let’s see what the High Court comes up with ….

  82. Dr Fred Lenin

    I wonder howmany of our welfarist semi indigenius sponges could claim Irish citizenship under the terms quoted by Stackja ? Or be dual citizens of other countries ? Quite a number I suppose . Only full blood aborigines should be eligible to sit in parliament , they are very good at sitting , they do a lot of it might be ok if you closed the bars , would they actually be worse than the present shower of Failed lawtradespersons ?

  83. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Only full blood aborigines should be eligible to sit in parliament ,

    That rules out all present indigenous parliamentarians…

  84. Diogenes

    Harald,
    there needs to be some wriggle room, otherwise whole sections of the community could never legally sit in Parliament unto the third and fourth (and beyond) generations , because some countries make it difficult to renounce see Iran & the requirement for military service.

    Greece used to not allow renunciation, I note that it now does, interestingly male Greeks doing so must also have completed military service (yoohoo Nick, yes I looking at you maaaate)

  85. john malpas

    Seeing how noble diversity and multiculturism is I would have thought that having assorted citizenship would be a merit – even compulsory.
    Monocitizenship is so passé.

  86. Tel

    In the case of Dastyari I suggest it is entirely reasonable that he should have to do military service in the Iranian army before we accept his bona fides.

    Strangely enough, as an Australian citizen it would be against Australian law for Dastyari to independently fight for a foreign power (especially Iran who aren’t exactly a close Australian military ally). Same law that John Howard got passed so he could use it against David Hicks.

  87. .

    Yohan
    #2471179, posted on August 17, 2017 at 8:23 am
    This whole issue over citizenship should be determined on the basis of whether the Australian born person made active steps to claim the foreign citizenship. If they made no applications, or took no steps, they cannot be held responsible for the bureaucratic actions of another country they were not born in.

    This law is not being applied in a common sense manner. Its meant to stop foreign born people from entering politics unless they renounce their foreign citizenship ties. It was never meant to punish Australian born people because another country allows them reciprocal familial citizenship.

    I agree, but when the PM, a former barrister says “the Constitution isn’t meant to be applied literally”, I start worrying.

  88. Harald

    BigBlueCat,
    It is my understanding the “acknowledgement” applies only the first part of the sentence:

    Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power

    The subsequent comma and “or” break it up into 2 separate criteria, with the second part reading:

    or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power

    This second part stands on its own. Apparently how this legal stuff is constructed – so I am told. Happy to be corrected on that, but that is my understanding of how to read this.

  89. Gorky

    “or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power”
    Barnaby was entitled to be a New Zealand citizen but could not have obtained a passport, got a license, obtained public health care or voted unless he went through the process of applying for these privileges.
    The allegiance part is important in interpreting the rules for those who are citizens due to a quirk in another country’s laws.

  90. Harald

    Diogenes,
    Certain countries indeed do not accept renunciations, like Morocco (which causes headaches in Europe).

    We probably should have a discussion on how to deal with this. But the resulting change – the wriggle room – should be deliberate, well-defined and put in place after public debate and a referendum.

    That would be the proper process and it must mean for the current crop of pols it is too late. They cannot even reasonably vote on this anymore. It would be the textbook case of a self-serving lawlessness if they get to rubber stamp themselves “approved”. Not even the government that critically depends on their vote can reasonably do this.

    In general it should not be a cosy get together of various executive branches of government, deciding behind closed doors how to best serve their own short-term interests given a bit of horse-trading. And that is very likely what will now happen, I am afraid: we will be cheated out of our right to decide these things. They’ll slap some “re-interpretation” on it as a band aid quick fix to keep their mates in parliament and the government limping along. And the whole thing will cause massive problems later on because it done to save some specific idiots and not a deliberate, well-defined, thought through change which tackles the problem and is good for Australia in the long run.

  91. Leo G

    I am not sure what is unclear about this…
    At the time Barnaby was elected, he was a Kiwi or he was entitled to the related rights and privileges. NZ said so. Barnaby said so. There is no dispute about this.
    At the same time, Barnaby was elected, s44(i) of the Constitution was in effect. It stipulates the restriction that any person cannot sit in Parliament, who:

    (i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power

    Barnaby Joyce certainly did not say at the time he was elected that he was a registered NZ citizen. If he were registered then, for the purposes of our Constitution, he was a citizen of a foreign power.
    But he claims not to be registered.
    The fact of NZ citizenship by descent does not in itself constitute an entitlement or grant to the rights and privileges of New Zealand Citizenship- that entitlement is bestowed by registration directed by the NZ Minister (or delegated authority).
    Rather than “cut and dry”, I see the matter as not being settled and as needing considerable examination.

  92. Deplorable

    C’mon. It’s not hard. If you were born overseas, or a parent was born overseas you should check.

    If you are born in Australia to an Australian parent it is bullshit that a loon country can lay claim to you as a citizen . No application no citizenship. The labor greens are full of it.

  93. Deplorable

    I agree, but when the PM, a former barrister says “the Constitution isn’t meant to be applied literally”, I start worrying.

    The high court has failed to apply the constitution “literally” for years preferring to be activist and rule on the basis of UN conventions . I find that alarming.

  94. Philby

    Perhaps there is a case to be made for extending section 44 to cover the public service as well as the parliament. I am sure there are many who acknowledge their allegiance to foreign powers by virtue of dual citizenship.
    As I see it Barnaby has never acknowledged any allegiance to NZ and is a true blue Aussie born and bred.

  95. The BigBlueCat

    Thanks Harald. I get the two part situation, which is how I addressed the 2 separate issues. The first is acknowledgement and if that pertains to personal acknowledgement rather than acknowledgement by the foreign power only. The second relates to rights and entitlements of foreign citizenship and if the individual has ever acted to exercise those rights, or recognises those rights as a matter of their citizenship of the foreign country. Once the High Court has heard the case and issued their findings, we’ll know more …

    It’s clear that the Waters and Ludlum matters are different to Joyce – they were actually born overseas, while Joyce was born here to an NZ father (who had been in Australia for 20 or so years) and an Australian mother. But I do take Sinc’s point that they all should have taken extra steps to ensure there was no issue before they were elected. Each party should ensure their candidates meet the requirements of S44 before they put themselves forward as candidates – cripes, there are enough lawyers amongst them to work it out!!

  96. stackja

    The world has many dual Australians.

  97. Steve

    Why don’t they just “identify” as Australian. Seems to work OK in other contexts.

  98. stackja

    The BigBlueCat
    #2471682, posted on August 17, 2017 at 4:40 pm

    Oversea countries keeping changing their laws.
    Born here, you are Australian. Born overseas where are your Australian citizen papers?

  99. Combine Dave

    stackja
    #2471968, posted on August 17, 2017 at 8:13 pm
    The world has many dual Australians

    Maybe this needs to be ended first?

  100. stackja

    Combine Dave
    #2472670, posted on August 18, 2017 at 12:59 pm
    stackja
    #2471968, posted on August 17, 2017 at 8:13 pm
    The world has many dual Australians

    Maybe this needs to be ended first?

    How many countries in the world have dual Australians. NXT says he might be British. Doesn’t he have Australian citizenship? If not why?

  101. The BigBlueCat

    stackja, it’s the dual citizenship that’s at issue, not where you were born.

  102. stackja

    The BigBlueCat
    #2472684, posted on August 18, 2017 at 1:05 pm
    stackja, it’s the dual citizenship that’s at issue, not where you were born.

    Yes, and the dual citizenship are created by overseas countries.
    Tell the overseas countries to leave Australians alone.
    My grandparents were Irish born. Came here before Federation. My father was born here. Ireland says I might be Irish. My mother’s family came here well before Federation.

  103. The BigBlueCat

    stackja
    #2472698, posted on August 18, 2017 at 1:16 pm
    Yes, and the dual citizenship are created by overseas countries.
    Tell the overseas countries to leave Australians alone.

    Or have the individuals renounce their non-Australian citizenship and re-affirm their absolute commitment to Australia (oh, wait … they’re politicians …)

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