Tuesday Forum: June 4, 2019

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2,174 Responses to Tuesday Forum: June 4, 2019

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  1. dover_beach

    A man who was abused by Bales, formerly known as Edward Dowlan, has brought the suit against Pell, the Diocese of Ballarat, Ballarat Bishop Peter Bird and Melbourne Archbishop Peter Comensoli.

    The man was abused by Bales at Cathedral College in East Melbourne in the early 1980s.

    What possible authority and therefore duty of care could have Pell had in the early 1980s that could give rise to tort of negligence?

  2. Fisky

    The Finland that ranks 7th worldwide, in comparison with the USA (30th),

    Firstly, in absolute terms, Finland has recorded one of the largest falls in its PISA performance since 2006. Secondly, you have previously said on this blog that you OPPOSE using PISA to compare countries in relative terms!

    1735099
    #2954634, posted on March 9, 2019 at 6:42 pm

    But the Melbourne Declaration has completely failed to reverse Australia’s long-term decline across the PISA assessments.

    The PISA assessments have not been reliable cross culturally for years, and no do they inform decision-making.

    lol

  3. What do you do ? And idiots like you are exactly why bright kids don’t want to become teachers

    Huh? Don’t take offence. You’re at least one s.d. above the mean and most of the time have a pleasant personality.

    It should not be offensive to suggest that teachers ought to have above average IQs.

  4. one old bruce

    Why did we ever assume that in the public sphere women are just repressed men? They make such different choices, as you say about the lack of rural veterinarians. Big big mistake in assuming all will just stay the same but different sex in charge. As women take over tertiary fields everything changes.

    In fact everything began to change when women got equal wages. Men lose interest, why bother? Where’s the incentive to do anything any more, all servitude with no reward? Stay at home dads in my town look miserable, so do all their working wives. We used to have a balance, as much as some complained.

  5. Geriatric Mayfly

    Andrew Forrest says he’s determined to build a gas and hydrogen-fired power station in NSW.
    The Oz

    ‘And’ hydrogen. Can someone explain where this gas might come from. Don’t tell me it’ going to involve hydrolysis of water. About as energy efficient as pumping the stuff uphill.

  6. Leigh Lowe

    Outside court Mr Magazanik said Pell was responsible not only for his own offending, which he was convicted of by a jury last year and is subject to appeal, but also for that which he could have prevented.

    “Pell has to answer not only for his own crimes but for crimes of other priests and brothers which he enabled by allowing them to be shuffled from school to school and parish to parish,” he said.

    In final submissions to the royal commission, counsel assisting found Pell was told of Bales’ offending by at least one student and two priests as early as 1973.

    The commission heard Pell raised the allegations with the chaplain of Ballarat’s St Patrick’s College Father Brendan Davey who told him the Christian Brothers were dealing with it.

    “With the experience of 40 years later, certainly I would agree that I should have done more,” Pell told the commission from Rome in 2016.

    FMD!
    These people have no concept of how the Catholic Church works.
    Bales/Dowlin was a Christian Brother and was outside the jurisdiction of the diocese.
    Reporting the complaint to the Christian Brothers was correct.
    However, Pell has done himself no favours by making the statement he made. He should have said “Look I raised it with those who had direct accountability for Dowlin. On reflection I wish I had gone down there and badgered them to get rid of Dowlin, even though it I didn’t have direct responsibility for him.”
    .
    Oh, and did anyone mention anywhere that Dowlin/Bales was a bigger raving queen than Julian Clary?

  7. Maybe he’s gonna burn acetylene and hydrogen. Ahem.

    Hydrogen would be a pain in the rear. IIRC butane and propane can’t seep through metal containers.

  8. Farmer Gez

    It’s that also true in medicine?

    Anecdotally for medicine but the vet story is from a local vet.
    Would anyone dare ask the percentage of full time lady GP’s in the bush or how many female graduates take up rural practice?
    It would send out the wrong vibe.

  9. bespoke

    Arky
    #3036962, posted on June 7, 2019 at 5:51 pm

    No idea about the merits of the the test. But at primary my oldest two got handed cartoon leaflets by teachers
    after school to ‘hand to parents’ with depictions of kids suffering anxiety and missing sleep etc. I recon you can guess my conclusion.

  10. Arky

    It should not be offensive to suggest that teachers ought to have above average IQs.

    ..
    You show me yours and I’ll show you mine.
    Unless your’s is bigger, in which case I’ll just do a quiet fade away.

  11. Arky, there is nothing at all offensive in suggesting that teachers ought to have an above average IQ.

  12. Arky

    Stop evading and pull it out.

  13. Arky

    Better stop it before Beaugan comes in and pulls out his massive and girthy IQ and drawls “Eh, take a look at this”.

  14. bespoke

    Armadillos have teeny weeny IQ’s.

  15. Leigh Lowe

    What possible authority and therefore duty of care could have Pell had in the early 1980s that could give rise to tort of negligence?

    Any action should be directed at the order of the Christian Brothers in Australia, which is completely separate from diocesan management.
    But, of course, no-one knows who runs the Christian Brothers, so let’s get Pell.
    Also, this is a civil case, which will be lost on most, who will see it as Pell being in the criminal dock again.
    Jeez, someone said to me during the RC hearings in Ballarat that they had just got a jury call up in Ballarat and “would love to get on Pell’s case”.
    Leaving aside the prejudicial attitude, this person thought the RC was a criminal trial.

  16. Jesus christ there is some snake oil out there.

    3 month old babies learning to read. You’d have to be totally off your bonce to believe this nonsense.

    https://www.parenting.com/baby/development/study-debunks-claims-babies-can-read

  17. None

    But when Justice Mark Weinberg pointed out that the witness’ same videotaped evidence had not had the same effect on the first jury – a retrial had to be ordered after two of the 12 jurors in the first trial could not be persuaded of the cardinal’s guilt – Boyce seemed to falter.

    “It’s just that you make the point that this is so obviously compelling and so clearly reliable and truthful, I just wonder how that squares with the fact that another jury were not able to agree,” Justice Weinberg said.

    Boyce appeared at a loss to explain clearly.

    Don’t let anyone ever tell you that Boyce was rattled by accidentally naming the witness. He was rattled because he didn’t have a f****** case and all it took was a simple question from Weinberg to expose it. Frankly if you didn’t believe in Providence you would now.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/7news.com.au/news/court-justice/george-pell-accuser-neither-a-liar-nor-a-fantasist-appeal-court-told-c-151805.amp

    There should be 1001 Google searches going on now about the accuser by any jornalists worth their salt. Oh and by the way note that the 10/2 finding was correct despite Fatry Milligan’s insistence it was a secret.

  18. one old bruce

    The private school I worked for in the 1980s got accredited to get state funding. I worked in the office as a secretary. We started to receive NSW Dept Ed materials in the mail after recognition. One pamphlet was a pedo advocacy how to guide with pic(s?) of male teachers fondling primary school kids, I swear. From the NSW Dept Education. It went straight in the trash and I can’t prove it ever existed. I did submit an email to the royal commission suggesting they investigate, but without proof little hope.

    Also I’ve heard stories of abuse everywhere outside Catholic Education. A major part of the royal commission was about the psychopath abuser, an Indian Swami, at the Mangrove Mountain Yoga ashram for example, yet little discussion in the news of how this org was rotten from India out.

    I believe I read that a pedo abuser of senior NSW Edu rank (district coordinator or some such) was found in the 1980s near the school where we received the offensive pamphlet, and he later suicided. But if they go after Pell, why not the 1980s NSW Edu hierarchy who enabled-supported this abuser? One in all in.

    Otherwise it’s a medieval witch hunt.

  19. Arky

    Armadillos don’t need a humungous IQ.
    They are protected by a leathery shell, a bad attitude, and as a last line of defence, by being infected by every contagious disease known to man.

  20. Ellie

    The getting pissed frequently I’ve mastered. The topping yourself bit can wait a spell.

    UOK, areff??

  21. None

    Guys enough of the dick swinging. We’ve seen bigger in backyards. Put it away now.

  22. None

    I’m so happy that Israel Folau is willing to drive after RA broke. Twiggy Forrest and Alan Jones can then pick it up for a song.

  23. Jesus christ

    https://www.huggies.com.au/forum/1-baby/152-your-baby-general-chat/2654018-your-baby-can-read-anyone-tried-it?page=2

    Tens of thousands of Australians must have been reading before the age of 2 and writing before they were four.Five year olds reading Charlott’es Web by themselves. Or read War and Peace when they were 12.

    FMD. The west is full of delusional fantasists. We’re nearly at Chinese, Indian or Russian levels.

  24. areff

    UOK, areff??

    Absolutely fine, Ms Ellie. Not contemplating sticking my head in the oven

  25. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Awakened after 2 hours sleep by a wrong number from Australia. Have to have my phone handy and on for urgent calls because of some family matters on Oz. Very cross at being wakened for nothing and now waiting for sleeping tablet to work, so perused back thread.

    Zulu and Bruce, hope I was not too dismissive of the food on the Rocky Mountaineer train. We had to go Silver Leaf as the Gold Leaf, by far the greatest number of carriages and the most popular, was sold out for our dates. We could still upgrade our two night’s accommodation. The Silver Leaf class carriages were still open glass roof, the main difference being there was no dining room and not as much of an outdoor observation deck. We peons were served in our very wide and spacious seats. Hairy and I were happy with that as sharing meals for 2 days with two allocated strangers on a train didn’t appeal too much anyway. Yes, there was a dedicated chef, as well as full silver service but it struck me still as rather like business class on an airline, and that was the same I found re the Gold Class when I spoke to people who had done that, with possibly greater variety in food choices and better wine labels and some more interesting spirit drinks. The main meals, as on aircraft, come from commercial caterers and are just finished off or simply heated up by ‘chef’ in his tiny servery kitchen who arranges these items and salads etc nicely on a plate. Not bad, but not true restaurant quality food, often, as with the egg dishes, rather rubbery and samey throughout. Believe me, I am an expert when it comes to buying food ready-made to heat and eat at home so I recognise it when it is served up as ‘cuisine’.. 🙂

    Most cruise ships do this to some extent too although they do more of the actual major commercial cooking too. Our chef on the train did bake a few cookies and bread buns but I doubt he mixed the dough for them.

    That all said, everything was very edible and they kept it coming out very well.

  26. Frank

    Not contemplating sticking my head in the oven

    Electric hey?

  27. Bruce of Newcastle

    Electric hey?

    No carbon monoxide in gas supplies these days so you’re probably better off electrocuting yourself with the element.

  28. hzhousewife

    There’s a crisis brewing in the veterinary profession as old blokes in the country retire

    locksmiths also.

  29. Frank

    No carbon monoxide in gas supplies these days so you’re probably better off electrocuting yourself with the element.

    So that’s what’s been going wrong.

  30. Dave in Marybrook

    Dr John, New Orleans stalwart and all ’round wunderkind, dead at 77.

  31. John Constantine

    Voracious and omnivorous early childhood reading is a thing, with benefits and costs.

    The thing you exercise you become better at, if you exercise more at sport than the general curriculum offers and you have aptitude-you stand out as a sporto.

    If you exercise chatting and interacting and playing with other kids and you have empathy, you won’t stand out, but will become a worthy citizen.

    If you absorb vast unordered and random texts , and develop the tools to integrate them so the world makes some sort of sense, schooling may become either tedious or incomprehensible.

    On average it works to apply age appropriate standard programming to a standard convoy of students equally, as they pick up the tools and cues to fit in as non-disruptors.

    If all kids were rationed to the standard texts at the standard age, and you couldn’t read the next Biggles book until you had helped the group of girls concentrate on and work out three relationship problems, fitting into the herd would be more instinctive.

    Because the Cat autoselects for Dissent and figuring out Why and Why Not, and these tools are commonly found in weaponised autodidacts that jumped away with an early reading start, it would be statistically reasonable to assume self taught reading skills are part of the place.

    Everyone sets out to become a polymath, but i have simply settled for being fulfillingly cantankerous.

    Comrades.

  32. twostix

    My oldest boys could read and write when they started school.

    Then they had to sit around doing nothing for an entire year as everyone else was taught to read and write.
    It was about third grade before everyone caught up. What we learned is not only is there absolutely 0 interest in prolish state schools for helping advanced kids, they actively suppress them. On odd years they’ll have individual teachers who will sneak them harder work but generally the interviews go ” x gets all the answers right, but he’s only getting a B/C because he needs to show us yet again that he can use the retarded increasingly insanestrategies we teach them to get the answers right our retarded way”.

    Strategies being number line hopping, estimating, 12+10 = 11+10+1 = 10+10+2 and stupid shit like that. My second eldest is great at maths and just does it in his head. No no! You must do the convoluted number line hopping and estimations even though you’ve been able to do three digit calculations in your head for three years now! Have a C and not an A because even though you got all the assessments perfectly correct, you didn’t use the weirdo branching strategy that nobody will ever use!

    It’s shit and is obviously a machine designed to churn out mediocre proles.

  33. Roberto

    Bruce in WA

    Can’t say anything about other States, but I am aware that here in WA (Perth metro), a lot of time and effort is being put into teaching to the test; i.e. they are being taught HOW to do a NAPLAN test, and what they are liable to encounter. It’s a very narrow, educationally unsound approach — to my mind. Others may disagree.

    I agree entirely. It seems to me that you’re better off teaching the children the principles behind each topic e.g. What are fractions? What do they represent? What does the numerator/denominator mean? Why do the formulae for adding/subtracting/multiplying/dividing them work? If children understand these concepts, they’ll be able to deal with any questions that get thrown at them.

    A young niece of mine was having great difficulty with a number of maths concepts. She could ‘crank the handle’ for the simple questions, but she couldn’t get to the next level of difficulty because she only knew ‘how’, not ‘why’. It took only a couple of hours with her on the principles and she started to get the ‘why’, thus allowing her to adapt methods to solve the question. She doesn’t have any problems now.

  34. Arky

    Think about it.
    Teachers are middle class douche nozzles who got ahead by complying and ticking boxes in a broken system.
    What self-interest do they have in properly educating the lower classes such that the brighter ones might compete with their own children for lucrative jobs ticking boxes successfully in a broken system?
    None at all.

  35. Steve trickler

    Updates..a couple of days old. (:



  36. Arky

    Or worse, figure out ways to improve the system such that it is not so broken and box ticking no longer successful?

  37. Estimating arithmetic that can be done very quickly and by recognition if practiced enough.

    Just woeful.

  38. twostix

    Reading Eggs is excellent for younger kids and Khan Academy is incredible for when they’re 9+.

    Nothing beats having a shelf full of golden books / beatrix potter books popup books etc and no ipad though.

    In 100 years they’ll look at the way we let kids have at electronic devices like we look at people giving babies morphine based teething gel 100 years ago.

    Insane.

  39. Fisky

    Hey Twostix – did you also encounter the endless lists of “sight words” being sent home when your boys were in Y1-2?

  40. RobK

    Hydrogen would be a pain in the rear. IIRC butane and propane can’t seep through metal containers.
    I think it is a copy of this experiment. https://m.techxplore.com/news/2019-06-energy-storage-utah-world-largest.html

    Mitsubishi Hitachi Power Systems (MHPS) announced an ambitious energy storage project to develop what it claims will be the world’s largest energy storage project of its kind, in Utah. Renewable hydrogen is at the coreThe project is dubbed “Advanced Clean Energy Storage” (ACES).

    MHPS developed gas turbine technology that enables a mixture of renewable hydrogen and natural gas to produce power with lower carbon emissions.

  41. Roger

    In 100 years they’ll look at the way we let kids have at electronic devices like we look at people giving babies morphine based teething gel 100 years ago.

    Let’s hope so, twostix.

    Btw, dot, I could read and write before I went to school.

  42. bespoke

    How do you remember that after 72yrs, Roger?

  43. twostix

    What self-interest do they have in properly educating the lower classes such that the brighter ones might compete with their own children for lucrative jobs ticking boxes successfully in a broken system?

    The education dept is an arm of the corporate class. When corporate says they needed factory workers who can use a lathe we got schools operated on shifts with hard maths. When corporate says they need mentally fluid office drones we get this shit.

  44. Btw, dot, I could read and write before I went to school.

    It is the more exaggerated claims I question: very young ages for both reading and writing, even self-taught literacy below pre school age.

  45. None

    twostix

    #3037038, posted on June 7, 2019 at 7:55 pm

    bloody hell

  46. JC

    Capri is gorgeous and Germans are dicks (more on that later). That’s my travelogue

  47. twostix

    Hey Twostix – did you also encounter the endless lists of “sight words” being sent home when your boys were in Y1-2?

    One year one used to bring home a a big key ring type thing with words on it. I baffled as to what the point of it was. I mean I knew what it was but I could not fathom how it would teach a child to read who couldn’t do so.

    Apparently you’re meant to just flash it in front of them and instead of reading the actual letters that make the word, they’re meant to mindlessly memorise the shape of the whole word like a picture and then recall and say the thing in their mind associated with the shape of the word like some lunatic Rorschach test.

    Why not just teach them the letters, it’s less effort!

    It’s all so tiring.

  48. Farmer Gez

    Why did we ever assume that in the public sphere women are just repressed men? They make such different choices, as you say about the lack of rural veterinarians. Big big mistake in assuming all will just stay the same but different sex in charge. As women take over tertiary fields everything changes.

    one old bruce.
    That’s a profound insight.

  49. Roger

    How do you remember that after 72yrs, Roger?

    I’m not yet 72, bespoke! (not that there’s anything wrong with that).

    My mother taught me phonics and then had me read suitable children’s stories as well as the daily newspaper (and patiently answered my questions regarding matters I didn’t comprehend from the latter).

    Copybooks were used to develop penmanship.

    Simple, but effective, at least in my case.

  50. Capri is gorgeous and Germans are dicks (more on that later). That’s my travelogue

    German and Russian tourists in the Seychelles – the rudest most pig-ignorant dumbfucks on the planet

  51. Dave in Marybrook

    The rumours that Some Schools Teach To The Naplan Test are pretty pathetic. Of all of the mutterings and accusations- even our primary principal claimed that a Perth school had closed down the art department and put on a full-time Naplan teacher- I haven’t heard anyone prepared to name a school. They don’t exist. The concept is a jealous assumption by spineless surrender monkeys.

  52. Farmer Gez

    German and Russian tourists in the Seychelles – the rudest most pig-ignorant dumbfucks on the planet

    Well matched in Stalingrad.
    It all started over who should have right of way.

  53. areff

    Twostix: My boy was at a state school overseas. He’s very bright and was “streamed” into the gifted classes. So he’s seven years and we have parent-teacher night. Wife and I hear the teacher what a beaut kid is, all the usual boilerplate, and by way of making conversation she says ‘We’re a lot of fun studying poetry with the class’.

    ‘Oh,’ says I, having a joke, ‘Byron and Shelley, eh.’ — knowing full well no seven-year-old is studying Childe Harold.

    Anyway, the teacher looks at me askance and says: “n and Shelley aren’t in my class. They must be his friends from the other stream.’

    Wife and I exchanged glances. The next week we had him baptised and enrolled in a Catholic school, in whose system he remained until the Jesuits were rid of him at 17.

    He’s still a bright boy. He wouldn’t have been if we’d left him in public system

  54. Arky

    Capri is gorgeous and Germans are dicks (more on that later). That’s my travelogue

    ..
    Concise, yet uninformative. I like it.
    Lizzie has much to learn from you.

  55. Leigh Lowe

    Don’t let anyone ever tell you that Boyce was rattled by accidentally naming the witness. He was rattled because he didn’t have a f****** case and all it took was a simple question from Weinberg to expose it. Frankly if you didn’t believe in Providence you would now.

    A potted version of this clusterfuck …
    Stage 1 : VikPol investigation. “Victims must be believed”
    Stage 2 : DPP. “Keep iterating and refining your stories until we get something we can hang our hat on.’
    Stage 3 : Committal before Faino and Milligan’s bestie : “We now have to dump the most ridiculous claims because we don’t want vulnerable liars cross examined. But their work is done. Pell is tainted”.
    Stage 4 : First trial. “Keep Richter on a tight leash. No awkward questions. Witness sits in a remote video facility with a comfort puppy. No eyeballing. But no conviction.”
    Stage 5 : Second trial. “Witness puts his feet up. Jury sees videotape replay. Bingo! Paydirt!”
    Stage 6 : Appeal. “Someone finally raises the issue of reasonable doubt. Prosecution wilts.”

  56. Dave in Marybrook

    There’s a great line in a Milligan memoir (no, not that Milligan- Spike).
    A sergeant is introducing a lecturer who is talking to the troops about Keats.
    “None of you hignerant bastards would know what a Keat is!”
    But I’ve long suspected that the penchant for silly kid names amongst white people is a rejection of the western inheritance. Try pronouncing Bronte “Bront-AY” or Lucia “Lucia” (as opposed to Lou-cheer) and wait for the earnest correction. Or proclaim yourself a MacKenzie on your mother’s side, and ask if they’re one of the kilted clan, and if they’ll be at the re-union, and just generally keep going until they admit that they just liked the sound of the word.

  57. Tel

    Teachers are middle class douche nozzles who got ahead by complying and ticking boxes in a broken system.

    Sadly, a lot of engineering has gone down that path. The tradesmen spend most of their lives collecting work permits. Childcare has almost nothing to do with children and everything to do with long lists of BS compliance.

    This the leftist trick of everything … tie up all productive activity in reams of bureaucratic rules to the point that the morons call the shots and everyone else dances for them.

  58. Fisky

    and instead of reading the actual letters that make the word, they’re meant to mindlessly memorise the shape of the whole word like a picture

    ROFL, exactly this garbage, which Numbers calls “good phonics teaching” lol

  59. rickw

    Strategies being number line hopping, estimating, 12+10 = 11+10+1 = 10+10+2 and stupid shit like that. My second eldest is great at maths and just does it in his head. No no! You must do the convoluted number line hopping and estimations even though you’ve been able to do three digit calculations in your head for three years now! Have a C and not an A because even though you got all the assessments perfectly correct, you didn’t use the weirdo branching strategy that nobody will ever use!

    Thank you for clearing up why I don’t understand my kids maths homework.

    Designed by idiots to make people idiots.

  60. Infidel Tiger

    Hey Twostix – did you also encounter the endless lists of “sight words” being sent home when your boys were in Y1-2?

    Going through that now.

    What’s your advice Fisk? How do we counter this rubbish?

  61. Fisky

    The rumours that Some Schools Teach To The Naplan Test are pretty pathetic. Of all of the mutterings and accusations- even our primary principal claimed that a Perth school had closed down the art department and put on a full-time Naplan teacher- I haven’t heard anyone prepared to name a school. They don’t exist. The concept is a jealous assumption by spineless surrender monkeys.

    The problem is, you can’t teach to the Naplan test. There is no such thing as “generic comprehension skills”. Reading comprehension is based on domain-specific knowledge. So unless the teachers know exactly which topics are covered in the Naplan test, they’re wasting their time.

  62. Fisky

    Going through that now.

    What’s your advice Fisk? How do we counter this rubbish?

    Try to get your kid signed up to Multilit. It saved my eldest from certain failure, and he is now reading above his year level.

    Most of all, never EVER listen to dumb anti-phonics ideologues and interference runners for “whole language” teaching (yes, I’m looking at YOU, Numbers!). Sadly, this is much of the profession now.

  63. Leigh Lowe

    Going through that now.

    What’s your advice Fisk? How do we counter this rubbish?

    Read them books.
    About boys-own stuff.
    Amend as required.
    For example …
    “Upon finding Algie and Ginger buggering each other behind the hangar, Biggles doused them in Avgas and set them alight”.

  64. Cpt Seahawks

    Amend as required.
    For example …
    “Upon finding Algie and Ginger buggering each other behind the hangar, Biggles doused them in Avgas and set them alight”.
    Ginger rose unaffected by the inferno, as he was ginger, and his DNA was broken.

  65. areff

    “Upon finding Algie and Ginger buggering each”

    When WE Johns settled on the name “Ginger” for the working class member of Wing Commander Bigglesworth’s all-classes-represented crew, he was obviously laying the ground for later deconstruction of his texts.

    Numbers would grasp that. Thank God no one else here does.

  66. Infidel Tiger

    My kids is a pretty good reader and speller, but is getting caught every week in the class test by the sight words.

    I have heard whispers of a mutiny brewing by the parents. Principal is going to have a hard rain fall on him.

  67. areff

    Prisoner of war books are good preparation if you plan to send your kid to boarding school. Mind you, POW food was probably better.

  68. max

    Happened to come across English for the VCE recently.

    My memory of English at Year 12 is a couple of novels, a Shakepeare and some poetry.

    Nothing like that now. It’s all language analysis, language as a social tool stuff. Articles, essays, newspapers but no literature. In other words, part of seeing the world in Marxist terms.

  69. Tel

    Most of all, never EVER listen to dumb anti-phonics ideologues and interference runners for “whole language” teaching (yes, I’m looking at YOU, Numbers!). Sadly, this is much of the profession now.

    There’s strong evidence that some people gravitate towards visual processing while others gravitate towards sequential audio processing (i.e. phonics). This applies to both regular reading/writing languages, and also mathematical concepts such as memorizing multiplication tables and doing mental sums.

    If sight reading happens to click and work for you then you happen to be a visualizer, if it doesn’t seem to work for you then certainly don’t force it. Tell the kid to try various methods and use whatever they find easier. If the teacher asks, tell them to say, “Oh for me this way is easier … must be my learning style!!”

    Later in life no one gives a shit whether you got an A or a C in primary school. They will care a lot if you can’t read.

  70. Nick

    My kids is a pretty good reader and speller

    Stares.

  71. mh

    From Breitbart

    Thursday, Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) said President Donald Trump’s plan to impose tariffs on Mexico is the “wrong solution to the crisis.”

    Cruz said, “I understand that the President is frustrated with congressional Democrats refusing to do their job or to do anything to fix this crisis. That being said, this is the wrong solution to the crisis.”

    I hope Ted wants the nuclear option.

  72. Fisky

    My kids is a pretty good reader and speller, but is getting caught every week in the class test by the sight words.

    The problem with the sight words is that they have irregular spelling patterns. These need to be taught explicitly, just as we have to learn irregular past verbs. There is no way around it. However, trying to memorise the word as a WHOLE is a very dumb way of attacking the the problem. They need to learn a different phoneme-grapheme set each week, go through all the simple and regular forms for each phoneme, before moving onto the complex patterns (such as -ere, -ough, etc) later on.

    What schools are trying to do, without much success, is find a short cut by getting kids to memorise a large number of whole words, instead of decoding and blending the sounds within words. This appears to work to a certain level, and it gives kids immediate access to a wider range of simple graded readers.

    However, once they reach Year 3/4 it becomes tricky, because this is the threshold where kids are no longer Learning to Read, but are rather Reading to Learn. They are exposed to a much wider range of vocabulary with different prefixes/suffixes and so on, and if they are not already fluent decoders of all the regular and irregular phoneme-grapheme relationships, they will be in trouble as the cognitive demands of the curriculum start going up.

    That’s why, if you are ever in a Grade 7/8 high school classroom, one of the most illuminating activities you can do is a whole class Read Aloud of a page in their textbook. It will immediately show you just how many kids are reading below their grade level, some by up to 5 years.

  73. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Prisoner of war books are good preparation if you plan to send your kid to boarding school. Mind you, POW food was probably better.

    I had the privilege of knowing a man – sadly, now gone to God – who claimed that the food in a Japanese POW camp was better then boarding school.

  74. Steve trickler

    I like this Scott.



  75. Bruce of Newcastle

    Thursday, Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) said President Donald Trump’s plan to impose tariffs on Mexico is the “wrong solution to the crisis.”

    Saw that and immediately thought ‘OK wiseguy what is the right solution then?’
    They never ever tell us this.
    So far the tariff threat seems to be doing very well getting Mexico’s attention.

  76. Most of all, never EVER listen to dumb anti-phonics ideologues and interference runners for “whole language” teaching (yes, I’m looking at YOU, Numbers!). Sadly, this is much of the profession now

    This is language specific though isn’t it?

    Katakana and hiragana are phonics, whereas kanji are sightwords.

    The anti phonics, “strategy” based arithmetic is one of the hilarious ironies of modern education.

    Learning a strategy for maths problems is not really important until later on. If it is an open question, use whatever you like.

    I did laugh when a maths lecturer made us use the washer and shell methods of integration “inappropriately” or solving basic maximisation problems parametrically. Another good laugh was making us use row reduction in an exam where coefficients were divisible by 17 instead of Cramer’s Method. What a bloody comedian. I see the point, sometimes you don’t get all the data you like. Barely any of this is applicable to school kids though.

    That might be reasoning behind the seemingly bizarre teaching of 3 x 5 being dissimilar to 5 x 3 – someone read ahead and looked up matrix multiplication without really thinking it through. Again, none of this is relevant to arithmetic per se or primary aged students.

    I do remember the beginning of putting as much wordiness into maths problems as possible. I hated it and the gals all of the sudden were as good as the boys. This nonsense has been going on for decades.

    Dr BG will probably die when he sees the 1st answer

    https://www.researchgate.net/post/How_does_one_multiply_two_different_size_of_matrices

  77. Infidel Tiger

    My kids is a pretty good reader and speller

    Stares.

    Don’t worry. He doest drinkas much as me.

  78. Infidel Tiger

    Stay out of this Dot

    Libertarians believe all education should be private and would be happy if everyone opted out of it. They are morons.

  79. We’re morons for saying you’d be better off doing it yourself but you can tell the principal how to do his job?

    Um, okay.

  80. areff

    Boarding school food: finding a fingernail in your custard. True story.

  81. Black Ball

    Worked in the education system myself, assisting Koori kids with four main focii. Literacy, numeracy, attendance and retention. The main focus was attendance. With that, everything else looks after itself.
    I recall just sitting observing a teacher delivering a science class with a kid I worked with. The female teacher was very attractive, however her grasp on the subject matter was dubious at best. Ended up having to interject many times due to the error count rising.
    This is where the problem rises within education. No real specialisation on any subject. How can a student learn anything if the teacher is barely literate?

  82. mh

    Stay out of this Dot

    Libertarians believe all education should be private and would be happy if everyone opted out of it. They are morons.

    Yes, I remember that thread with Iampeter and Dot. What a hoot.

  83. Leigh Lowe

    areff

    #3037094, posted on June 7, 2019 at 9:50 pm

    Boarding school food: finding a fingernail in your custard. True story.

    Luxury.
    That’s just a bit of roughage.
    Try toenails and pubes.

  84. Arky

    Libertarians believe all education should be private and would be happy if everyone opted out of it. They are morons.

    ..
    You idiot.
    This is the only thing libertarians actually have right.

  85. This is where the problem rises within education. No real specialisation on any subject. How can a student learn anything if the teacher is barely literate?

    Mentioning teacher IQ on the Cat is a hate crime in current year.

    Admit it teachers of the Cat…you excel in your field because you posses above average IQ in your field, if not society generally. When you whinge about the average IQ of students or other teachers…well, you prove my point.

    Nothing to do with “passion”, “method X” or “constant mockery of leftist educationalists”.

    It’s ok to be smart. If only more teachers had a higher IQ, the argument for institutionalised schooling would intensify.

  86. Infidel Tiger

    IQ is another scam perpetuated by academic pseuds and science hucksters.

  87. Bruce of Newcastle

    IQ is another scam

    Rubbish.
    Saying “I Quit” is extremely liberating.

  88. If IQ isn’t a real thing then all we have left is competency and teachers could only ever add value with regard to literacy and numeracy; all else is better left to industry or self-interest. If commenters here reckon they were taught to read and write before school age and arithmetic is taught in a truly insane manner, schooling has outlived its usefulness.

  89. Infidel Tiger

    You idiot.
    This is the only thing libertarians actually have right.

    You’d be happy if most of the population opted out of all education?

    If you think the average family capable of homeschooling or organising education without help from the state, you are as delusional as the libertarian who think open borders and zero welfare is viable.

    The greatest gift to the country and the path to righteousness in education begins with two things:

    1. Razing all universities with the faculty inside.
    2. Getting boys and girls back doing apprenticeships. Most kids should not be going to 12.

    And 3, making it mandatory that the librarian is sexy as hell.

  90. Helen

    Lady kitchen staff observed sitting on step outside kitchen paring their leprosy sores. Custard delivered into dining room by same ladies, complete with full thumb indentation in custard. One fellow ate all round the thumb hole. Captain waited til fellow was looking and ate his thumb hole with relish!

  91. Arky

    and teachers could only ever add value

    ..
    Teachers add value by keeping the horrible little fuckers off the street and from breaking into your house and killing and rooting your chihuahua while you are working in blissful ignorance of the numbers of highly dysfunctional youths you share the world with.
    You’re welcome.

  92. rickw

    “Upon finding Algie and Ginger buggering each other behind the hangar, Biggles doused them in Avgas and set them alight”.
    Ginger rose unaffected by the inferno, as he was ginger, and his DNA was broken.

    My sides hurt!

  93. Steve trickler

    Well done, mate.



  94. If people can learn literacy and numeracy from their parents, they can go straight into an apprenticeship as soon as their parents consent to them working. Some of our elders here say they went to work as a bank teller when they left school at 15. These days you pretty much need a B Com. to get a job as a teller.

    They don’t need to learn about what songs Mr Thomson listened to in his shitty university band. They don’t need to take drug education classes they won’t take seriously and they don’t need to make bongs in metal work.

    If you think the average family capable of homeschooling or organising education without help from the state

    They are more competent than the state. Gatto showed how compulsory and publicly funded education led to worse outcomes in Massachusetts for example.

  95. Black Ball

    Frank Walker who sells tiles, are prospective teachers given a fairly rigorous time at university? It’s all very well to pass a subject but in my mind you shouldn’t just pass it, there should be a benchmark of say 75 percent in marks in a subject. That’s just me.

  96. Arky

    You’d be happy if most of the population opted out of all education?

    ..
    Yes.
    I have been doing a lot of replacement teaching lately.
    Not having to give a shit if the class is a disaster or not has freed me up.
    I now rock up to the most disruptive kids and out of genuine curiosity ask them why them come.
    Not nasty like. Just smile and look interested.
    Most of them come because they like being at school. Home is boring and shit and there aren’t any teachers there to piss off.

  97. mh

    Teachers add value by keeping the horrible little fuckers off the street

    If they weren’t at school they would be at home playing on computers. The adventurous ones hang around Westfield. The abo kids don’t attend school anyway.

  98. Leigh Lowe

    rickw

    #3037108, posted on June 7, 2019 at 10:07 pm

    “Upon finding Algie and Ginger buggering each other behind the hangar, Biggles doused them in Avgas and set them alight”.
    Ginger rose unaffected by the inferno, as he was ginger, and his DNA was broken.

    My sides hurt!

    Not as much as Ginger’s bum.

  99. BB

    That’s how the actuarial training system works. If you don’t get 60% in each subject, it doesn’t count to professional accreditation, IIRC.

    Then again, what are our teachers learning?

    I know a few people who did the Grad Dip after uni. and became teachers.

    The sociology subject they had to do was pure bilge. It indoctrinated equality of outcome and the idea to destroy the truly gifted.

    I’d much prefer they fail such a subject with vigour and spite.

  100. Arky

    I worked my arse off in the maths dept at Melbourne uni.
    Used to lock myself in my room most of the weekend going back over my lecture notes trying to figure the stuff out. The uni had taken over the old teaching college and moved the students into their own faculties for specialist subjects. I was caught up in the change. First year had been doing the teacher college math course, then had to finish off a major at the university. I passed OK, but not brilliant up against the best damn math students in the state. A LOT of my fellow teacher’s college students dropped out.
    Back at the old teachers college for the education component, I did no work at all. None. Zero. Just made most of the shit I wrote up. Passed with better grades than I got in the maths courses.

  101. Tel

    I’d much prefer they fail such a subject with vigour and spite.

    That is the main lesson to teach your kids: don’t allow yourself to be intimidated by teachers (nor by schoolyard bullies) otherwise you will spend your life intimidated. Don’t be afraid to fail now and then, especially when someone else has defined the game. Live life on your own terms.

  102. Knuckle Dragger

    I used to amend fairy tales for my young bloke all the time. His favourite was Little Red Riding Hood, because the ending went something like:

    ‘The wolf jumped out of the bed, big fangs and said ‘You’re buggered now Riding Hood! Get in mah belly!’ Riding Hood jumped into the corner, screaming out the window for backup! Then – CRASH! Wood and screws and splinters went everywhere as the Woodsman, howling with rage kicked the door in! Took one look at the Wolf, said ‘Hasta la vista baby’, cranked that pumpy and BOOM! Bits of the Wolf’s head went everywhere, and then Red and the Woodsman took his wallet!

    His mother’s stories didn’t seem to have the same effect.

  103. Bruce in WA

    Dave in Marybrook
    #3037057, posted on June 7, 2019 at 8:40 pm
    The rumours that Some Schools Teach To The Naplan Test are pretty pathetic. Of all of the mutterings and accusations- even our primary principal claimed that a Perth school had closed down the art department and put on a full-time Naplan teacher- I haven’t heard anyone prepared to name a school. They don’t exist. The concept is a jealous assumption by spineless surrender monkeys.

    Bullshit.

    The problem is, you can’t teach to the Naplan test. There is no such thing as “generic comprehension skills”. Reading comprehension is based on domain-specific knowledge. So unless the teachers know exactly which topics are covered in the Naplan test, they’re wasting their time.

    No, but they can spend endless bloody hours doing duplicate tests in the same format. And there certainly are “generic comprehension skills”, unless you mean something other than what I’m thinking. Try these, for a start:
    Summarizing
    Sequencing
    Inferencing
    Comparing and contrasting
    Drawing conclusions
    Self-questioning
    Problem-solving
    Relating background knowledge
    Distinguishing between fact and opinion
    Finding the main idea, important facts, and supporting details.

    These are applicable across domains.

  104. Knuckle Dragger

    Jesus Christ that Up the Guts show after the footy’s shit.

    Back to the cricket. IT guys versus the bus conductors.

  105. Knuckle Dragger

    Or not. Raining in England in summer. Quelle surprise.

    Buggered if I know why Hitler wanted it.

  106. Knuckle Dragger

    I wish I’d thought of that Biggles story though.

    The key point: Rangas have no souls.

  107. Fisky

    No, but they can spend endless bloody hours doing duplicate tests in the same format. And there certainly are “generic comprehension skills”, unless you mean something other than what I’m thinking. Try these, for a start:
    Summarizing
    Sequencing
    Inferencing
    Comparing and contrasting
    Drawing conclusions
    Self-questioning
    Problem-solving
    Relating background knowledge
    Distinguishing between fact and opinion
    Finding the main idea, important facts, and supporting details.

    These are applicable across domains.

    All of these “skills” are domain-specific and cannot be replicated without content knowledge. It is not possible to “distinguish between fact and opinion” unless you actually know enough about the field in which fact and/or opinion are being presented.

    Let’s see how many arts graduates can apply their “problem-solving” skills to the Chernobyl meltdown!

  108. Armadillo

    The best education your child can get is to have a caring and watchful family, and a wide circle of their own friends.

    A “teacher” is merely an overrated, over paid baby sitter. There are very few who actually care about your individual kid. They couldn’t give a crap. They get paid to teach a course, dictated by the Government.

  109. memoryvault

    The late, great American comedian, George Carlin, explains what’s wrong with modern education – amongst other things, in three minutes.

  110. Westie Woman

    We’re in Singapore for a mini holiday and my favourite thing so far has been the free drinks and snacks in the club lounge at the hotel – is this a bad thing?

    I’ve decided to renovate my lounge room into a Club lounge when I get home….

  111. Bruce in WA

    All of these “skills” are domain-specific and cannot be replicated without content knowledge. It is not possible to “distinguish between fact and opinion” unless you actually know enough about the field in which fact and/or opinion are being presented.

    Really?

    “It was hot today”. Fact or opinion?

  112. Armadillo

    Teachers should be on constant performance review.

  113. memoryvault

    The key point: Rangas have no souls.

    Rubbish! I just finished watching “The Fifth Element” again.

  114. Bruce in WA

    Sorry, Fisky, just woken up to what you are saying.

    Of course you are right in that respect.

    Apologies.

    Maybe my comprehension skills need some work!

  115. Bruce in WA

    Anyway, peoples, getting late and I still have to do some reloading for the range tomorrow.

    Catch you all later.

  116. Fisky

    If you think the average family capable of homeschooling or organising education without help from the state, you are as delusional as the libertarian who think open borders and zero welfare is viable.

    But this is part and parcel of libertarian ideology. It is based on a world that no longer exists, if it ever did!

  117. Roberto

    Frank Walker from National Tiles

    That’s how the actuarial training system works. If you don’t get 60% in each subject, it doesn’t count to professional accreditation, IIRC.

    For the actuarial course it’s 75% for the initial, technical subjects.

    The final, professional exams are more stringent. Pass rates hover around the 25-4o% rate.

  118. Megan

    ..are prospective teachers given a fairly rigorous time at university?

    Not judging by my recent encounter with the Melbourne Graduate School of Education. I herewith submit my notes:

    The Master of Teaching (Early Childhood) is designed with a new type of early childhood professional in mind – one who operates in a multi-disciplinary field involving care, education, and health.

    The course focuses on learning and teaching for children aged birth-eight years and provides a qualification for registration to teach in early childhood settings.

    Extra support
    Our teacher candidates are successful because of the extra support and guidance they get when leading a class for the first time.

    You will receive ongoing support – unlike any other university – both on campus and while on placement. As you learn, you will be supported by a Mentor Teacher and a Clinical Teaching Specialist.

    Clinical teaching
    We’re the only initial teaching degree in Australia to use a genuine clinical framework.

    WTAF is a clinical teaching specialist? And what happened to Thursday morning’s double chalkboard? And you must adapt the teaching to the individual rather than expecting them to keep up? If I had done that at any time in my 27 year classroom tour of duty its unlikely I would have managed to teach anything. Mind you, I started out with classes of 40+, perhaps a group less than half that size has more potential for low expectations.
    “Continuously evaluating the impact of their teaching, to inform next steps” Well, quite. This would involve me thinking something like “They all know their 7 times table really well, maybe it’s time to move them onto 8.” I could have really enjoyed that first year subject, Introduction to Clinical Practice, had it been available in my day. I might have been able to transfer to nursing or medicine with that under my belt.

    Seriously. Go and have a look at their website. This is what is delivering declining PISA results and kids with a shallow education that is approaching useless for actually mastering the basics.

  119. Infidel Tiger

    Libertarianism is an obscure Anglo cult started by childless incels entrenched in academia.

    Gosh it sounds great on paper when you are a horny teenager, but reality absolutely destroys it.

  120. Megan

    PS: I’ve used the Masters of Education, Early Childhood as an example only. Go check out the others, equally full of jargon and NewSpeak.

  121. rafiki redux

    I am coming in late on the Pell case and probably at the fag-end of this OF, but here goes.

    None at 6.55
    Boyce could have dealt with Weinberg’s reference to the 10:2 result in the first trial by saying that it had no substance unless one knew why the 2 could not find Pell guilty. Weinberg assumes that these 2 had carefully evaluated the complainant’s evidence and did not find it compelling. This cannot be assumed. They could well have thought – or even said – that whatever the evidence they would not find Pell guilty. It is not a matter of common sense that juries never think this way. Weinberg has in effect given evidence for the defence.

    There was one common sense argument that Boyce (and the prosecution at trial) could not make. Jones v Dunkel (High Court 1959) was a negligence case in which the plaintiff had adduced evidence from which the jury could infer that a person (H) was negligent (and as a consequence the defendant was liable). The defendant did not call H as a witness. In a statement that has become ‘classic’, Kitto J said that the jury should have been told that “any inference favourable to the plaintiff for which there was ground in the evidence might be more confidently drawn when a person presumably able to put the true complexion on the facts relied on as the ground for the inference has not been called as a witness by the defendant and the evidence provides no sufficient explanation of his absence. The jury should at least have been told that it would be proper for them to conclude that if Hegedus had gone into the witness-box his evidence would not have assisted the defendants by throwing doubt on the correctness of the inference which, as I have explained, I consider was open on the plaintiff’s evidence”.

    If applied to Pell’s case, the prosecution could have argued that since Pell did not give evidence in court, that made it easier for the jury to find that the complainant was telling the truth. This sort of argument might well have occurred to the jury. But Jones v Dunkel reasoning cannot be relied upon by the prosecution in a criminal case. Instead, judges have to give a barely comprehensible instruction that avoids any suggestion that the defendant could even have given evidence. Of course, many jurors (not least because they cannot make sense of the judge’s instruction) do think along Jones v Dunkel lines, and they may well have done so here.

    Whatever the outcome, I suspect that it will be held against Pell that he chose not to give evidence. This is a point that is legitimately held against Lionel Murphy for a similar decision on his second trial. And to be clear: it was Pell’s decision, not that of Richter.

  122. Armadillo

    Mrs A went to a BOM presentation in Walcha during the week. Can anyone here tell me what a forecast of 60% chance of 1-5 millimetres of rain means on your weather Aps?

    Australians use weather Aps all the time. Weather Zone or whatever.

  123. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Hey, M.V., I found your book – apologies to whoever I was blaming for having stolen it – as sharp and witty as ever. Well done.

  124. areff

    A fitting end for that crossdressing wolf. Dumbo benefited from similar revisions, notably that his gift of flight was bestowed by a unique capacity to blast out ram-jet farts. My little bloke would have paroxysms doing elephant farts off the back of his hand. Then his mum would come in and say something like ‘Don’t be silly. That’s not how Dumbo flies.”

    Then we’d make lots more fart noises and blast her out of the room.

    I miss having a little kid. They even smell nice, despite the interest in farts, which can’t said of them a few hence.

  125. memoryvault

    Evening Zulu.
    To which book are you referring?
    I was under the impression you had two.

  126. Notafan

    Rafiki

    Wasn’t it the other way round.

    Ten not guilty, two guilty?

  127. twostix

    There are notable exceptions within the system, but generally modern schools are down syndrome version of the average modern corporate office in Australia and the higher up you go the worse it gets. The principal level is a cultish clique of weirdos.

  128. Notafan

    Rafiki

    What evidence could Cardinal Pell give?

    It’s not a matter of he said he said.

    It just didn’t happen.

    Cardinal Pell didn’t leave the procession, he didn’t go to the sacristy, he didn’tcatch the boys drinking, none of it.

    and what you’re ignoring is the fact the Catholic Church and her celibate priesthood has been sold to the general public as synonymous with child abuse for decades.

  129. memoryvault

    down syndrome version of the average modern corporate office in Australia and the higher up you go the worse it gets.

    You’ve done work for BHP and RIO Corporate as well?
    Mind boggling stuff.

  130. Bruce in WA

    Just ducked in to get some info on ADI powders and couldn’t resist having a look here. 🙁

    Someone was asking the other night for some key scenes from ‘Sink the Bismarck’. Think this might be what was wanted.

    Let’s see:

  131. Armadillo

    Whatever the outcome, I suspect that it will be held against Pell that he chose not to give evidence.

    I’ve said from the start that Pell actually wants to be a martyr. He lives and breaths this stuff. False accusers and all the rest. Being imprisioned and ostracised. Turning the other cheek.

    Pell is only doing what his God commands. He is mimicking Jesus and the other Saints that followed.

    He won’t be suing the State any time shortly. He will forgive them.

  132. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Evening Zulu.
    To which book are you referring?
    I was under the impression you had two.

    The title on ripping off the welfare system.

    Actually, I have a three book policy, that I’m reading at one time. The reading in the cold, old, right wing cave that serves as my library, is a guide to ripping off the welfare system, a biography of the Finnish sniper with five hundred Soviet kills, and a biography of Ho Chi Minh. I’m not sure about the message here….

  133. Notafan

    Dillo with the nonsense.

    No-one expects the Victorian inquisition.

  134. twostix

    If you think the average family capable of homeschooling or organising education without help from the state

    There’s a weird space for families who want to officially come together, pool their resources and homeschool together as a group. Maybe hire a tutor for a few hours a week, share the load, etc.

    Technically it’s illegal to do that. You can homeschool says the state, but it insists that you do so with no contact and organisation of your own with others. The modern state that demands perfect hive collectivism in all areas, orders mandatory lonely frontier individualism, basically exile, if you don’t want your kids in its system.

    Very mean.

    If it weren’t so there’d be lots more community homeschooling groups and homeschooling would be done a lot more.

  135. Bruce in WA

    Dear Bruce

    Do NOT rely on memory when reloading.

    Your favoured load is 25.2gr 2206H NOT 26.2 gr!

    Oh well, pour the powder out and start again.

  136. Armadillo

    To Pell, the baying media and the Government are reminiscent of Roman times in Jerusalem past. Meanwhile, the public throw rotten eggs at him. He doesn’t care. He can see his place in heaven.

  137. Notafan

    Cardinal Pell could do that without vicpol interference.

    I’m sure that this trial is the cause of great suffering for Cardinal, both on a personal level and for the damage that does Catholic Church.

    The mission is to bring people to Christ, not turn them away.

  138. Leigh Lowe

    Whatever the outcome, I suspect that it will be held against Pell that he chose not to give evidence.

    Utter bullshit.
    Seriously, do you pretend to have legal qualifications?
    Every judge, always, without exception MUST advise a jury that no inference can be drawn from a defendant not taking the stand.
    The whole foundation of criminal justice – the presumption of innocence – turns on that.
    The evidence must stand or fall on it’s own merits.
    The defendant need not say anything if the evidence is – how you say? – shit.
    This instruction is always given to juries where the defendant doesn’t take the stand.
    I seriously hope Supreme Court appellate judges don’t require such advice.

  139. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Someone was asking the other night for some key scenes from ‘Sink the Bismarck’. Think this might be what was wanted.

    My compliments, Bruce in WA, and thank you. They were exactly the scene I was asking about, from “Sink the Bismark.”

  140. Fisky
    #3037133, posted on June 7, 2019 at 11:07 pm

    If you think the average family capable of homeschooling or organising education without help from the state, you are as delusional as the libertarian who think open borders and zero welfare is viable.

    But this is part and parcel of libertarian ideology. It is based on a world that no longer exists, if it ever did!

    Hmm yes. Instructions from left wing weirdos in each state government are really equipping our youngsters for the real world, aren’t they?

    Whereas you say I am stuck in the past (I agree), that past was grounded in reality.

    State based education is now teaching arithmetic by estimation and literacy in a manner so bad you would be forgiven for believing it is willfully damaging.

    Telling kids they cannot be competent at arithmetic instead they must use the dumbest methods for the dumbest people is unreality based and so bad it is counterproductive.

    That is only the basic stuff. What is taught in social sciences is poisonous rhetoric and schools generally do not impart work specific competencies so young adults leave school with virtually no marketable skills.

    Suggesting that some teachers are part of the problem because they possess very low IQs and that we do not live in the best of all possible worlds is somehow delusional; yet you cannot say how because you agree with the criticisms of what we have.

  141. Infidel Tiger

    Rafiki once opined that people here needed to be careful lest anonymous posters sue each other for defamation.

    Make of that what you will.

  142. Knuckle Dragger

    Jones v Dunkel was a civil matter involving negligence.

    The P3ll matter is a criminal proceeding.

    Comparing sunflower seeds to Great Barrier Reef-sized algal blooms.

    No comparison whatsoever.

  143. Notafan

    A discussion at the link on with decision not to call Cardinal Pell and the changes to the law in relation to sexual assault cases

    let it be clear Richter very firmly advised Cardinal Pell not to give evidence

  144. twostix
    #3037153, posted on June 7, 2019 at 11:46 pm

    If you think the average family capable of homeschooling or organising education without help from the state

    There’s a weird space for families who want to officially come together, pool their resources and homeschool together as a group. Maybe hire a tutor for a few hours a week, share the load, etc.

    Technically it’s illegal to do that. You can homeschool says the state, but it insists that you do so with no contact and organisation of your own with others. The modern state that demands perfect hive collectivism in all areas, orders mandatory lonely frontier individualism, basically exile, if you don’t want your kids in its system.

    Very mean.

    If it weren’t so there’d be lots more community homeschooling groups and homeschooling would be done a lot more.

    This is the sort of thing that Ivan Illich suggested and I’ve mentioned a few times here. Nope, we need educationalist weirdos to impart (in)competence, apparently.

    It is indeed very mean and spiteful.

  145. MatrixTransform

    are prospective teachers given a fairly rigorous time at university?

    no.
    the missus is getting to the pointy end of a teaching degree.
    I’m watching the final stages.
    hell, I’m correcting the essays and rearranging paragraphs

    the main criteria as far as I can tell, is subscription to a marxist ‘stronger together’ attitude.

    aint no rigour … its post modern bullshit from end to end

  146. memoryvault

    Technically it’s illegal to do that.

    There is a loophole around all that nonsense, Twostix. Basically there’s three ways to educate a kid.

    First, there’s the standard method of enrolling the kid in the public education system, either at a state, or private school. Second there is home schooling which you refer to, and which is designed to be as onerous as possible on both the child and the parent.

    But there is a third way, the Schools of Distance Education. Each state has one, they’re easy to get into, and equally easy to find and share the load with other students and their parents doing the same thing.

  147. Armadillo

    The mission is to bring people to Christ, not turn them away.

    Airconditioner, what better way to do that than humility and personal sacrifice?

    The world is quickly awakening to the real devil.

  148. Knuckle Dragger

    Here endeth the Fred.

  149. Steve trickler

    Nice work, mate

    Good channel.



  150. rafiki redux

    Notafan – ah yes, it was. This does not destroy my first point entirely. I think it wrong for Weinberg to have made an assumption about what the jurors thought about the credibility of the complainant. It bothers me that a judge would think it relevant on a second trial to look back at the earlier trial in order to undermine a counsel’s argument on the trial in question for the court.

    Pell could have given a very firm denial of the allegations, which might in the jury’s mind have weakened the force of the complainant’s evidence. He could also have given evidence of his practices when officiating at a service of this kind (such as talking to people at the cathedral door) . His counsel could then argue that this is evidence that he so acted on this occasion. (This an example of tendency evidence.) This would have added to the evidence of others as to what he did on this occasion. He would of course have exposed himself to cross-examination, but, assuming he is innocent, there can be no doubt he would have stood up to it.

    I can’t follow your last point. I do not ignore the vast amount of prejudicial material put into the public domain. I am pretty sure I suggested here many months ago that it was reasonable to think Pell could not get a fair trial. But this not germane to my points (one of which you have diminished).

  151. MatrixTransform

    “It was hot today”. Fact or opinion?

    nice.
    divisive bastard opening a can-o-worms like that

  152. Notafan

    I very much doubt Cardinal Pell sees this as any such thing.

    I am however interested in the view that prior to 1980 people making complaints of sexual assault were considered to be potentially unreliable.

    Not the plaster saints of today.

    That to me seems to be a reasonable supposition to make.

    There are many reasons why an adult (or child) may make a false accusation.

  153. Leigh Lowe

    Rafiki once opined that people here needed to be careful lest anonymous posters sue each other for defamation.

    Make of that what you will.

    Also warned me about three years ago that calling compo lawyers “ambulance chasers” could bring litigation armageddon down on both Sinc and myself.
    No writs received so far.

  154. Armadillo

    Anyway, back to the BOM dude at Walcha. He is one of the top analysts within BOM.

    When you see on your Weather Ap that there is a 60% chance of 1-5 millimetres of rain. What does that mean?

    Everyone in the room was astounded.

  155. Notafan

    Rafiki in fact Cardinal Pell did make very firm denials in his recorded interview in Rome which was shown to the jury.

    Hundreds of people were available to attest to cardinal Pell’s habit of greeting people at the end of mass.

    I believe this was the very first mass that is celebrated as the Archbishop of Melbourne.

    The claim is laughably improbable however it was 23 years ago.

    I can imagine a prosecutor pouncing on Cardinal Pell’s ability to recall his exact movements on a particular day.

    My point it is far more likely that no matter what was said jurors were going to find Cardinal Pell guilty, because he’s guilty of something after so much personal mud thrown at him, remember Vivian Waller’s claim in 2014? And there she is representing the accuser.

    Troubles me very much that the accused was allowed to refine his statement many times since 2015 and the jury would not have been made aware of that.

  156. Notafan

    Accuser, not accused.

  157. rafiki redux

    Infidel Tiger – again, you have misconstrued what I said several years ago now and I am not going back to it.

    Leigh Lowe – you are not thinking this through. The presumption of innocence applies once all the evidence is in, and it is not inconsistent with it to say that the evidence includes inferences that may be drawn legitimately from other evidence. Not all judges are happy with the current law (which I did not misstate). I have no time now to find references. I suppose you would not have joined the many who criticised Lionel Murphy.

  158. Notafan

    ‘All the evidence’ in this case being the oft amended statements of the accuser.

  159. BrettW

    Why would Pell need to give evidence.

    His police interview in Rome was part of the evidence. In it he made it quite clear what he thought of the allegations and no doubt in my mind, based on that interview, he is innocent. That was backed up by multiple witnesses who indicated could not have happened as described.

    I have not seen the complainant give evidence but many have said it was compelling. I have no explanation for how that could be and it was obviously “awkward” for Richter to suggest he was making it up.

    Surely you are left with benefit of the doubt in such circumstances.

    No way he should be in jail based on the evidence of one person in circumstances which are quite simply incredulous.

    The major problem with this case is that it is almost as though he is being held, by many in the public, as personally responsable for all Catholic Church abuse over the past 30 years.

    I understand it is a very big deal to overturn a jury verdict but in this case I hope they do.

  160. C.L.

    I have not seen the complainant give evidence but many have said it was compelling.

    LOL.
    The same people said the same thing about Brett Kavanaugh’s accuser.
    She was a barking mad, lying lunatic and has disappeared into obscurity.

  161. None

    I have not seen the complainant give evidence but many have said it was compelling.

    that was actually the sum total of the prosecution’s case and the opening words of the Prosecutions appeal lawyer and then when judge Weinberg pointed out that obviously the first jury in the first trial did not think so, the prosecuting I could not answer and went to water for the rest of the appeal hearing. And so today we have the pill Hota John Ferguson droning on that the religious world must get ready for people being set free. Well Blood Oath I’m going to dancing in the streets when he is and I’m not even a Catholic.

  162. None

    Raffi Redux if the accusers testimony was so compelling then it should be universally compelling such that there is beyond Reasonable Doubt for any jury. The fact that not everybody saw it is as compelling – because that is all the prosecution have remember just the accusers testimony – says that the basis for the prosecution’s case is absolutely bloody s*** weak. Let’s not go to the fact that jailing someone on the basis of something somebody said happened 23 years ago not to mention in contradiction to 20 exculpatory witnesses is a f****** precedent hat I don’t want anywhere near our legal system. Or if we are going to have that let me start accusing you of sexually molesting me 30 years ago and see how that gets you.

  163. None

    Pell did right not to take the stand. The case has been exposed as an absolute sham without his input and that’s the way it should be. Chris Boyce QC did the world a favour. He accidentally named the accuser and no doubt those who heard it inside the court will be busily chasing up details if they had any credibility as journalists. And he also did us a favour by exposing the absolute weakness of the prosecution’s case which rests only on some testimony being compelling. This is the fatty Milligan line of arguing and as Weinberg pointed out not everybody thought so. All the first prosecuting lawyer did was attack Portelli who really is the key alibi and that is why they try to leak against him a couple of weeks ago – find the source of that leak and you find the person who’s concocting this b******* against Pell – and that is why Walker worth masterful in deconstructing the misleading tactics of the prosecuting lawyer when he was questioning Portelli.

  164. None,

    You are absolutely correct.

    The fact that it went past the committal, and the committal itself did not result in a perjury indictment is terrifying and incredible.

  165. None

    One of the big weaknesses in the prosecution’s case and also in fatty milligan’s is that the accuser and the dead drug addict were friends and one even stayed at the other one’s house to make it easier to get to choir practice and yet the father of the dead person didn’t seem to recognise him at the funeral and I would also say the father of the dead person is a prime mover in this. As you can see the father of the dead person left his wife and kid some time ago and ID like to see the timeline because nothing seems young teenage boys into a spiral than family breakups.

  166. Nick

    With the Pell case, there is no actual evidence beyond the accuser saying he did it, none.

  167. Cassie of Sydney

    “Well Blood Oath I’m going to dancing in the streets when he is and I’m not even a Catholic.”

    Me too None…..being Joooooish I have no skin in the game but I recognise an injustice and I recognise a stitch up when I see one….I see a man who has been the subject of a vicious smear campaign for the last 20 years….all because that man is a robust conservative and traditional Catholic, also because that same man had the audacity to confront the “homosexual” lobby within the church. The ABC, Nein newspapers, David Marr, Fatty Milligan etc have spent the last 20 years trying to “Get Pell” because he steadfastly refused to kowtow to their “progressive” agenda. And they finally did…aided and abetted by a venal, corrupt and politicised Victorian police force.

    If he is acquitted…I’ll be dancing in the street and I’ll be sparing no one my wrath.

  168. Notafan:

    Strategies being number line hopping, estimating, 12+10 = 11+10+1 = 10+10+2 and stupid shit like that.

    That’s just frigging bizarre.
    What’s the point of it when one just adds 12 to 10 to get 22?

  169. Cassie o’Sydney:

    If he is acquitted…I’ll be dancing in the street and I’ll be sparing no one my wrath.

    Metoo.

  170. Arky

    This afternoon’s work.
    I need a bigger property to take it for a proper run. My driveway is too short.
    Also need to find some armadildos to run over.
    Now to finish the bodywork off.
    ..


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