Pell Discussion Forum: August 21, 2019

Update I: Appeal Rejected.

Update II: The actual judgement.

FERGUSON CJ, MAXWELL P

352 We would refuse leave to appeal in respect of grounds 2 and 3. We would grant leave to appeal in respect of ground 1 (the unreasonableness ground) but, for the reasons we have given, would dismiss the appeal.

WEINBERG JA:

1179 I would grant leave to appeal against conviction on Ground 1. I would order that the appeal be treated as having been heard instanter, and that it be allowed. I would set aside each of the convictions sustained below, and the sentences passed thereon. I would further order that there be entered judgment and verdicts of acquittal on each charge.

1180 I would refuse leave to appeal on both Grounds 2 and 3.

Update III: PvO has this tweet.

I do have some sympathy for PvO’s  position. We have a process for establishing “facts” and that process has established that George Pell is guilty of a crime. To be sure Pell can still appeal to the High Court – and I think he should. But here is the thing – we keep hearing that trust in social institutions is eroding. The legal system itself is such a social institution. We are being asked to believe a very big claim – that George Pell is a heinous criminal on evidence that strikes me (and I’m sure many others) as being somewhat implausible. True – as PvO points out – I wasn’t in the church in 1996 and so I don’t know what happened. Mind you none of the juries or judges was there either. If they had been there would be eye-witness accounts to the alleged crimes.  Anyway, not only are we being asked to believe a very big claim, we are asked to believe that claim after Pell was not tried in open court. Now to be sure, apologists will make their excuses – perhaps there are good reasons why that had to happen, blah, blah, blah.

To be clear, PvO’s position is the “responsible” position, the “appropriate” position, the  “bourgeois” position, the “moderate” position, and dare I say it, the “conservative” position.  Yet I do not consider myself to be unintellectual or pig-headedly ignorant.

Update IV: From the comments.

I probably don’t belong in this “centre right” blog, but I do believe in open and logical, fact based discussion, so please accept my somewhat dissenting comment in the constructive manner in which it is intended.

There are only 3 individuals that know what happened on that day in that church, and god depending on your beliefs.

One committed suicide and his evidence was not available to this trial.
One gave his evidence in the trial under the rules of our legal system.
One gave his evidence in the trial under the rules of our legal system.

Under the laws of Australia the judges enable both sides to present their evidence and arguments to the jury. The jury, made up of the peers of the accused, then decide which side they believe is presenting the truth.

That is the same arrangement that any of us would face in a similar situation.

C. Pell may be innocent, but the rules under which we agree to live by, find him guilty and that decision has been made by a majority? of the jury and the judges after listening and reviewing days and days of evidence.

Why is it that people on this blog believe that their opinion is more correct than those people of the jury and the judges, whom as a society we delegated the decision to.

What we as individuals desire or believe in our hearts or minds is utterly irrelevant.

If we believe that our emotional and unfounded beliefs are more valid than those of our legal system, then our society has some big problems.

No individual is above the law, even the Pope.

 

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863 Responses to Pell Discussion Forum: August 21, 2019

  1. max

    The father of the dead boy is planning further civil suit against Cardinal Pell.

    Will he invite his wife to testify ?

    After all, she’s already said their son told her nothing happened.

    But, like their honours today we can “imagine’.

  2. dover_beach

    The new rule, as it applies to enemies of the bugmen class, is you are guilty if it is simply possible that you are guilty.

  3. Gab

    Under the laws of Australia the judges enable both sides to present their evidence and arguments to the jury.

    Evidence? Hearsay from one source is not “evidence”.

    And as for the man who died, he twice told his mother that nothing happened. And that is on record.

  4. Geriatric Mayfly

    But, like their honours today we can “imagine’.

    Tell me, they weren’t singing that bloody ditty.

  5. Candy

    Need to be careful with words here as a Left person takes it as you support p…..ia. by a belief in Cardinal Pell’s innocence – dobbing, find your name and place employment. It is concerning.

  6. Gab

    Justice Weinberg said there was a body of evidence that made it “impossible to accept” the victim’s account. “I cannot, in good conscience, do other than to maintain my dissent.”

  7. Notafan

    The Vatican thing is a fanciful crock.

    Ritcher pointed out that operation tethering was started without any accusations existing again Cardinal Pell, after the Victorian and Federal royal Commissions failed to Get Pell.

    Now someone is trying to say the Italian mafia leaned on Victorian mafia leaned on Victoria police and not a single actual person involved has made the slightest squeak?

    Haven’t noticed the Catholic church in general, and Cardinal Pell in particular has been in the firing line for quite a while?

    You know the rainbow dash brigade, abortion law, same sex marriage, safe schools, religious exemptions for Catholic institution employment, school funding, the seal of the confessional, that sort of thing?

    The anti Catholic bigotry we see and hear every day here isn’t enough for you all?

    Nuts.

  8. Old Lefty

    I’m getting worried about the premiums for renewing my home insurance. According to those judicial geniuses Ferguson and Maxwell, the possibility that my house might be destroyed by a meteor strike before the end of next week is the same thing as absolute certainty, beyond reasonable doubt, that it will be

  9. vlad

    Kidd told Catholics in the jury panel to excuse themselves if their name was picked out.

    That should have made it a mistrial by itself.

  10. Geriatric Mayfly

    As Richter QC lights another gasper, would give quids to know what his ruminations are. Bound of course, by the rules of the club, never to let us know.

  11. calli

    If you think my comment displayed bigotry, nota, then I apologise unreservedly.

    It was not intended.

  12. notafan

    My comment wasn’t directed at you Calli.

    If it’s not the Italian mafia it’s the Pope.

    It’s ridiculous.

    I suspect even the Mafia are disgusted by what is going on here.

  13. Geriatric Mayfly

    Kidd told Catholics in the jury panel to excuse themselves if their name was picked out.

    This is a new one.

  14. Old Lefty

    ‘Imagine there’s no heaven … and no religion too’ – the view from the Victorian bench.

    And just to clarify, Notafan, I don’t know what to make of the story I heard about Mafia influence apply Rd from Italy. To be honest, I find it a bit far-fetched. But I find it interesting that the source is not a nasty right-winger of ABC demonology, but a lawyer who is a member of the ALP. (I left years ago, but still talk to some of them.)

  15. vlad

    Richter has said publicly that Pell is innocent, which I’m not sure he should have.

    Might seem to imply that his other clients were – well, you know …

  16. BrettW

    Not guilty by reason of – you have got to be kidding me regarding the total implausibility of the alleged offence in relation to time and place and witnesses likely to have noticed something.

    Oh well, on the plus side VICPOL can reopen the case into a certain Labor politician. Based on standards of evidence in VIC a guaranteed conviction.

  17. notafan

    Don’t worry, as I said earlier;
    Weinberg believes Cardinal Pell is innocent so according to Monty then he is in the same boat as us.

  18. PB

    ” I really appreciate the support of the non-Catholics posting here. ”

    You probably have more support than you know.

  19. Geriatric Mayfly

    Richter has said publicly that Pell is innocent,

    Present tense vlad is what I meant. The thought bubbles would make a Marlton cartoon look like a blank page.

  20. notafan

    Old Lefty

    It is another conspiracy that would require a cast of thousands and an amazing chain of relationships to exist and is propalgated by people who have no real notion of how long Cardinal Pell has been wrestling with both subversion within the church and anti Catholic forces outside of it.

  21. dover_beach

    Why is it that people on this blog believe that their opinion is more correct than those people of the jury and the judges, whom as a society we delegated the decision to.

    What we as individuals desire or believe in our hearts or minds is utterly irrelevant.

    Mark, I and others referred to the arguments of Weinberg in his dissent, how is that an appeal to desire?

  22. Gab

    I’m a bit surprised the Libertarians aren’t up in arms about this notion of hearsay by one accuser being deemed as evidence.

  23. vlad

    Weinberg J has ruled that “in the presence of the jury” doesn’t mean in the physical presence – because that’s reading a word into the legislation that isn’t there! – so that teleconferencing etc is good enough. I would still appeal that to the HCA, though it’s probably a lost cause if Weinberg J is against me on it.

    There’s an old joke about a man smoking a cigar in the museum underneath a “no smoking” sign. The guard comes up to him and says you see that sign? Yes, says the smoker.

    Well?! the guard says, to which the man replies: “It doesn’t say *positively* no smoking.”

  24. classical_hero

    We’re living under the law according to Lionel Hutz. Hearsay and conjecture are kinds of evidence.

  25. I am the Walras, Equilibrate, and Price-Take

    Geriatric Mayfly
    #3137548, posted on August 21, 2019 at 9:06 pm
    As Richter QC lights another gasper, would give quids to know what his ruminations are. Bound of course, by the rules of the club, never to let us know.

    Yeah me too.

    This outcome worries me. I am deeply concerned about the calibre of the people we put on the bench, if this is the best they can do.

  26. vlad

    The Pope is waiting to hear what the High Court says, apparently.

    It’s a pity appeals to the Privy Council were scrapped.

  27. Robert Mc

    I’m a bit surprised the Libertarians aren’t up in arms about this notion of hearsay by one accuser being deemed as evidence.

    The evidence give by A was direct, not hearsay.

  28. Frank Walker from National Tiles

    Gab
    #3137569, posted on August 21, 2019 at 9:19 pm

    I’m a bit surprised the Libertarians aren’t up in arms about this notion of hearsay by one accuser being deemed as evidence.

    There is a laundry list of items to be concerned about. That is one of many.

  29. jupes

    Tommy Robinson jailed within five hours of committing a (non) offence, then jailed again on appeal.

    Jeffrey Epstein dies in his cell while on suicide watch.

    George Pell jailed on the uncorroborated evidence of one dero, then loses his appeal.

    The justice system and rule of law have been destroyed in the west.

  30. Frank Walker from National Tiles

    Kidd told Catholics in the jury panel to excuse themselves if their name was picked out.

    FMD what an unprofessional goose. Does that idiot think he is Titus Oates?

  31. Iampeter

    I think it’s very clear to everyone which of us is the more credible expert on Mental Illness Iampeter!!!!

    Yes, yes it is. SMH.

    In any case, those exceptional individuals in this thread downplaying mass-scale child abuse and actual conspiracies to cover it up, while trying to cook up a conspiracy theory in the legitimate legal process that led to Pell’s verdict, merely because they disagree with it, may just want to consider that they have things backwards as usual.

  32. jupes

    Rhetorical questions:

    If the Grand Mufti had been accused of a historical sexual assault by a dero, does anyone believe he would be sitting in jail right now?

    Would the ABC, PVO etc be hiding or promoting his alleged criminality do you reckon?

  33. vlad

    Kidd told Catholics in the jury panel to excuse themselves if their name was picked out.

    I should note here that even though I bumped this quote from further up the thread, I’d want confirmation that he did. Because it’s incredible if true – but also all too credible.

  34. Boambee John

    m0nty
    #3137483, posted on August 21, 2019 at 8:02 pm
    Wussiagate.

    Was all true. Trump is a Russian stooge, and his campaign aided and abetted the GRU in subverting American democratic process. It’s all there in the Mueller report.

    Not sure what you’re smoking m0nty, but I doubt that it is legal.

  35. Frank Walker from National Tiles

    Robert Mc
    #3137515, posted on August 21, 2019 at 8:32 pm

    The vast weight of probability is that he’s guilty.

    Beyond reasonable doubt?

    Yes, beyond reasonable doubt. That was the unanimous verdict of the trial jury

    Yeah, not quite you utter moron. A mistrial and a split bench decision. In between that, Kidd J’s absurd antics.

  36. jupes

    Peter if you are an example of a right-winger, is it any wonder that everyone else in the world is “left-wing”?

  37. Frank Walker from National Tiles

    Iampeter
    #3137583, posted on August 21, 2019 at 9:29 pm

    I think it’s very clear to everyone which of us is the more credible expert on Mental Illness Iampeter!!!!

    Yes, yes it is. SMH.

    In any case, those exceptional individuals in this thread downplaying mass-scale child abuse and actual conspiracies to cover it up, while trying to cook up a conspiracy theory in the legitimate legal process that led to Pell’s verdict, merely because they disagree with it, may just want to consider that they have things backwards as usual.

    1. Name ALL of the individual guilty parties. Name the conspiracies too.

    2. How is it “legitimate” for a trial judge to demand jurors excuse themselves on religious grounds? Or how legitimate is it for an accuser to perjure themselves during a committal hearing?

  38. Stimpson J. Cat

    Yes, yes it is. SMH.

    Nearly two and a half hours for this response.
    Very low energy!!!!
    Couldn’t find an appropriate Simpson’s Gif!
    Life comes at you fast!

  39. Frank Walker from National Tiles

    munty called the Melbourne Response a “cover up”.

    Good god, you’re elite level brainwashed and dumb.

  40. JC

    Frank

    Peter is mentally unwell.

  41. Stimpson J. Cat

    Peter if you are an example of a right-winger, is it any wonder that everyone else in the world is “left-wing”?

    No please no.
    Not the one true Conservative Libertarian spiel.
    Not that again.
    God no.
    Don’t encourage him Jupes.

  42. Frank Walker from National Tiles

    m0nty
    #3137483, posted on August 21, 2019 at 8:02 pm

    Wussiagate.

    Was all true. Trump is a Russian stooge, and his campaign aided and abetted the GRU in subverting American democratic process. It’s all there in the Mueller report.

    You really are a dangerous loon. Where are the indictments, fuckhead?

  43. Frank Walker from National Tiles

    Romano DelBeato
    #3137484, posted on August 21, 2019 at 8:03 pm

    Regardless of whether Pell is actually guilty or not, I am deeply worried at this tendency to condemn without hard evidence, or even any evidence at all, but simply on the “credibility” of the plaintiff.

    Bang on.

    You could easily be convicted of heinous crimes in Australia – unreliable accuser testimony, impossible chronologies, changing accounts, physical impossibility and implausibility, not to mention countermanded by other witnesses; remember we have no automatic right to trial by jury or a trial in an open court, no double jeopardy and no statute of limitations. Some idiotic states now have majority jury verdicts as well.

  44. Bar Beach Swimmer

    To Mark:
    I wrote further up the thread that we got rid of capital punishment in our jurisdictions because it was better for ten guilty men to go free than for one innocent person to hang. In doing so we acknowledged that the police, the prosecutors and the courts can get it wrong.

  45. Frank Walker from National Tiles

    C. Pell may be innocent, but the rules under which we agree to live by, find him guilty and that decision has been made by a majority? of the jury and the judges after listening and reviewing days and days of evidence.

    Why is it that people on this blog believe that their opinion is more correct than those people of the jury and the judges, whom as a society we delegated the decision to.

    What we as individuals desire or believe in our hearts or minds is utterly irrelevant.

    If we believe that our emotional and unfounded beliefs are more valid than those of our legal system, then our society has some big problems.

    Well, we should have hanged Lindy Chamberlain and Max Stuart.

  46. Lilliana

    What we as individuals desire or believe in our hearts or minds is utterly irrelevant.

    If we believe that our emotional and unfounded beliefs are more valid than those of our legal system, then our society has some big problems.

    No individual is above the law, even the Pope

    no – the evidence does not support a guilty verdict and that is why our legal system and our society has big problems. Pell was found guilty on emotions not evidence.

  47. Frank Walker from National Tiles

    If we believe that our emotional and unfounded beliefs are more valid than those of our legal system, then our society has some big problems.

    I know for a fact that the accuser “A” perjured himself.

    Ergo, the prick who wrote the above quote is an ignorant, nasty sack of shit.

  48. Rob

    Relinquishing one’s Labor Party membership doesn’t mean one stops voting Labor.

  49. Stimpson J. Cat

    Peter is Grigory.

    I doubt it.
    Grigs is highly intelligent, fluent in hundreds of foreign languages, an expert on Aldi catalogues, and literally cancer.
    Iampeter is not worthy to wash his pool dog ramp.

  50. Farmer Gez

    If we believe that our emotional and unfounded beliefs are more valid than those of our legal system, then our society has some big problems.

    If you call logic emotional, then you have a point.

  51. Geriatric Mayfly

    Regardless of whether Pell is actually guilty or not, I am deeply worried at this tendency to condemn without hard evidence, or even any evidence at all, but simply on the “credibility” of the plaintiff.

    Women must be believed. Now it’s choirboys. Next cab off the rank?

  52. Viva

    A key factor in this case is the convincing testimony of the accuser.

    I strongly suspect that this person suffered abuse by someone associated with the Catholic church just not Pell. He decided to go after the top guy not only for justice but for revenge. No wonder his testimony was considered “compelling”.

  53. dover_beach

    It’s not merely that the conplainant’s evidence was uncorroborated, it’s that there were statements given by numerous witnesses that contradicted the conplainant’s evidence, that taken separately or together render the accusation impossible.

  54. Leigh Lowe

    That thought has crossed my mind too, Viva.

  55. Geriatric Mayfly

    No wonder his testimony was considered “compelling”.

    Thirty years of practice and rehearsal will do that.

  56. C.L.

    Why is it that people on this blog believe that their opinion is more correct than those people of the jury and the judges, whom as a society we delegated the decision to.

    What we as individuals desire or believe in our hearts or minds is utterly irrelevant.

    If we believe that our emotional and unfounded beliefs are more valid than those of our legal system, then our society has some big problems.

    No individual is above the law, even the Pope.

    Why? It’s pretty simple, really. An illegal campaign to poison the jury pool was conducted for at least a year before Pell’s trial. The ABC, for starters, was obviously above the law. That’s not even counting everything that led to Pell being brought to trial – all of which was disgracefully rigged. Where was van Onselen’s phony commitment to the law and to tradition then?

  57. Frank Walker from National Tiles

    Phony indeed C.L.

    A pig-headed and ignorant person would not be unsettled by how the Victoria Police seemingly committed a justice offence the way they doctored an out of context phone tap as “evidence”

  58. Stimpson J. Cat

    A key factor in this case is the convincing testimony of the accuser.

    If he was seriously mentally ill he could genuinely believe it happened.
    It would be entirely real to him.

  59. dover_beach

    A key factor in this case is the convincing testimony of the accuser.

    Weinberg mentions the compelling testimony of Carl Beech (933-936). He noted that juries or judges have ordinary records judging the truth of a person’s testimony on the grounds that it was felt ‘compelling independently of other evidence:

    922 The Australian Law Reform Commission, in its ground breaking work that led ultimately to the enactment of the Uniform Evidence Law, reviewed a great deal of psychological research concerning the demeanour of witnesses. That research almost universally concluded that facial reaction and bodily behaviour were unlikely to assist in arriving at a valid conclusion about the evidence of most witnesses.[219]

    923 Lord Justice Atkin, when a member of the English Court of Appeal, had this to say regarding demeanour as a guide to credibility:[220]

    an ounce of intrinsic merit or demerit in the evidence, that is to say the value of the comparison of evidence with known facts, is worth pounds of demeanour.

    924 These days, there are many more indicia of both credibility and reliability than demeanour on its own. Some of these can be characterised as ‘objective.’[221] Accordingly, demeanour is frequently relegated to a less prominent position in the assessment process than it has in the past. Judges often, in their charges to juries, warn of the dangers of giving too much weight to this factor, and certainly more weight than it should properly bear.

    925 In the present case, the prosecution relied entirely upon the evidence of the complainant to establish guilt, and nothing more.[222] There was no supporting evidence of any kind from any other witness. Indeed, there was no supporting evidence of any kind at all. These convictions were based upon the jury’s assessment of the complainant as a witness, and nothing more.

    926 Mr Boyce, in his submissions to this Court, did not shrink from that having been the entire prosecution case at trial. Indeed, as indicated, he invited the members of this Court to approach this ground of appeal in exactly the same way. He asked this Court to focus upon the complainant’s demeanour in assessing his credibility and reliability, and to treat that matter as decisive. And, as previously indicated, he relied heavily upon a particularly emotional exchange between the complainant and Mr Richter as to why the complainant had never told anyone, at the time, about either incident, or discussed it with the other boy.

  60. JC

    Viva
    #3137611, posted on August 21, 2019 at 10:00 pm

    A key factor in this case is the convincing testimony of the accuser.

    I strongly suspect that this person suffered abuse by someone associated with the Catholic church just not Pell. He decided to go after the top guy not only for justice but for revenge. No wonder his testimony was considered “compelling”.

    He sounds pathetic in a worthless sense. In fact, I saw a film clip of the “victims” outside the court and they appeared to be pitiful. They appeared to revel in their pity. Really weird.

  61. The Beer Whisperer

    The anti Catholic bigotry we see and hear every day here isn’t enough for you all?

    Nuts.

    I’m protestant and my great grandmother was treated like an animal by catholic nuns for being protestant.

    But even I can see the rabid anti-catholic bias that likely has zero basis in actual oppression or prejudice.

  62. dover_beach

    Where was van Onselen’s phony commitment to the law and to tradition then?

    File under, Keeping up appearances.

  63. C.L.

    I strongly suspect that this person suffered abuse by someone associated with the Catholic church just not Pell. He decided to go after the top guy not only for justice but for revenge. No wonder his testimony was considered “compelling”.

    That doesn’t explain why he would go to the trouble of writing his dead mate into the narrative.

    No, something else is going on here.

  64. No, something else is going on here.

    Maybe… help me out here, just spitballing… maybe Pell did it?

  65. max

    Two judges made much of their inspection of the robes and vestments worn at mass and that they believed it quite possible for sexual abuse to have happened by parting or moving them to the side.

    I think they should be required to dress in the robes and show us all exactly how they “imagine” this could have taken place. Really, they should.

  66. Leo G

    That doesn’t explain why he would go to the trouble of writing his dead mate into the narrative.

    What was the order of events? Did he “go to the trouble” before his mate died- and did the mate subsequently deny the narrative?

  67. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    I think they should be required to dress in the robes and show us all exactly how they “imagine” this could have taken place. Really, they should.

    Well said.

  68. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Maybe… help me out here, just spitballing… maybe Pell did it?

    Monty, please tell me that you’ll never sit on a jury.

  69. JC

    Fatboy:

    You’ve avoided the obvious. Now that you’ve convinced yourself of his guilt because the of the courts saying so, what will you say if the High Court flips this 180?

    Stop avoiding the question. Get off the donuts and answer it.

    (it’s now a forgone conclusion this will occur because you state he’s guilty)

    Maybe… help me out here, just spitballing… maybe Pell did it?

    I’ll tell you what the odds are. It’s more plausible that Pell molested someone who hasn’t come forward than the dickwad who’s lied throughout the case. That’s how bad the odds are.

  70. JC

    Two judges made much of their inspection of the robes and vestments worn at mass and that they believed it quite possible for sexual abuse to have happened by parting or moving them to the side.

    I’m pretty sure, well kind of sure, that in describing the structure of the garments, they would have to be pulled up and not moved to the side.. according to Weinberg.

  71. JC

    Monst

    I’m waiting for a response. Get off those freaking donuts.

  72. max

    That’s what I would guess, too, JC.

    Richter should have staged a re-enactment and picked holes in the story.

  73. C.L.

    Sure, Monty. Pell bolted from a High Mass procession and ran to an open room where he suddenly decided to force his penis into a passing choirboy’s mouth while massaging the anus of the second boy and then used his third hand to fondle a pair of [email protected] or something.

    Afterwards, the boys went straight to a smack den and took up heroin.

    Sounds plausible only to two classes of person: the mentally ill and leftists.
    Hang on. Make that one class of person.

  74. Rob

    Surely this is all about the money.

  75. Rayvic

    What was it in the alleged victim’s makeup that made Pell allegedly act so impulsively on the only two instances that Pell allegedly saw him — the only two times that Pell is alleged to have ever behaved in this way? Pell’s alleged wild behaviour was not proved beyond reasonable doubt.

    If the truth be known, the Victorian legal system succeeded in setting up Pell as the ‘fall guy’ for offending Catholic clergy in Victoria.

  76. Bruce in WA

    I strongly suspect that this person suffered abuse by someone associated with the Catholic church just not Pell. He decided to go after the top guy not only for justice but for revenge. No wonder his testimony was considered “compelling”.

    I suspect this person and his mate got caught playing with each other’s wilson, and decided to vent their humiliation on the highest ranking person they could find.

  77. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    +1. I’m gobsmacked.

    Yes. You would be, wouldn’t you? Anything to put the boot into me, you barbarian.
    You have form in behaving disgracefully towards me on this blog. I am heartily sick of it.

    In this case, you haven’t even begun to comprehend the point I was making, nor recognised that as a non-religious person here (and there are not too many) I am absolutely outraged about what happened to the Cardinal, a man who seems to have a good track record in correcting abuses in the Church, and whom many who know him regard fondly. Had I a greater acquaintance with him, perhaps I might view him fondly too. CL has offered an interesting observation regarding the aloofness I saw in this man, one which, given the mendacity of the anti-Catholic zeitgeist, rings very true to explain the Cardinal’s presentation in that encounter. Frankly though, he could have a genuinely unpleasant persona or conversely be the friendliest of souls and that would be irrelevant here (which was my point). I would still strongly hold that he had not received justice, given the charges and lack of evidence for them.

    You are a weak and pathetic creature, Nick, slime clinging to the base of this blog.
    You big note yourself whenever you can, with alacrity, for no good reason and have the hide to condemn me for making a personal observation. You absolutely disgust me. Should we ever meet in person I will be happy to tell you so to your face. I am honest and genuine and do not come here to be abused. If you wish to meet and tell me how disgraceful I am then get in touch with Sinclair and he will give you my email and you can meet the person you so roundly abuse.

    We will meet with my husband as my bodyguard. I don’t trust you at all.

  78. Bruce in WA

    High fives, Lizzie …

  79. Rex Mango

    One aspect everyone ignores, is video evidence totally different to evidence in person. Same difference between theatre and cinema. Reason Clint Eastwood a better actor than Olivier on the big screen. Sad part is the legal profession don’t go to film school and don’t understand this. In last decade video evidence has become prominent in a system designed before Shakespeare. High Court may care to look at this.

  80. C.L.

    Excellent (and surprisingly well-informed) piece at First Things by senior editor Matthew Schmitz:

    Cardinal Pell: Scapegoat.

  81. twostix

    m0nty tentatively dipping his toe into the rake-filled water.

    “Surely this issue will be safe, surely the universe, the gods, won’t make be wrong on this one…”

    Universe: “Hold my beer”.

  82. C.L.

    And this by heavy hitter, George Weigel: The Australian Disgrace.

  83. Stimpson J. Cat

    The anti Catholic bigotry we see and hear every day here isn’t enough for you all?
    Nuts.

    Harden up princess.
    Stop whining like a cowardly Godless heathen.
    You are supposed to be a Catholic,
    face the lions like a man.
    😁

  84. C.L.

    Weigel goes so far as to say that Victoria is now unsafe for foreigners:

    Reasonable people will wonder whether it’s safe to travel, or do business, in a social and political climate in which mob hysteria similar to that which sent Alfred Dreyfus to Devil’s Island can manifestly affect juries.

  85. Old Lefty

    Meanwhile, for comparison’s sake:

    https://kelsolawyers.com/au/news-item/frank-valentine-problem-for-government/
    This is the senior and long-serving NSW DOCS officer who at one stage ran the Parramatta Girls Home. Plibersek’ ex-junkie partner, as head of DOCS, had a formal strategy of litigating the victims into the ground until they gave up or died.

    Needless to say, not reported by the ANC

  86. Old Lefty

    PS: Kidd’s directions to the jury panel were reporting the media after the suppression was lifted.

  87. Old Lefty

    ‘reported in’ – damn autocorrect!

  88. Mark A

    Stimpson J. Cat
    #3137608, posted on August 21, 2019 at 9:57 pm

    Peter is Grigory.

    I doubt it.
    Grigs is highly intelligent, fluent in hundreds of foreign languages, an expert on Aldi catalogues, and literally cancer.
    Iampeter is not worthy to wash his pool dog ramp.

    Not sure about the dog ramp, maybe he is suitable for that.
    But on his day Grigsy-Ray made a lot more sense that ipeter ever did.
    Never could figure out what he means about “us not understanding politics”

  89. C.L.

    Is there a link for that, OL?
    I have read here that Kidd directed Catholics to excuse themselves from the jury but I haven’t seen this in a published source.

  90. Up The Workers!

    What are the circumstances in which a Judge should ‘recuse’ him/herself from a trial due to the possibility of perceived bias?

    Given the A.L.P.’s long and disgraceful history of persecution and groundless vilification of Cardinal Pell (the Labor Party’s “Get Pell Squad” was formed some 12 months before the single auditioned and rehearsed highly-dubious uncorroborated complaint was laid) and the fact that two of the three Appeal Judges have decades-long personal associations with the A.L.P., does Pell have grounds for Appeal due to apprehended bias?

  91. Mark A

    Up The Workers!
    #3137674, posted on August 22, 2019 at 12:02 am

    The split will never be forgotten. (The Dem Lab party was mostly cath. influenced I believe)
    Labor maybe a lot of things but one thing they stand out for is; “Never forget or forgive”

  92. C.L.

    Can somebody post this article, please?

    How all hell broke loose over Pell
    The investigation into Cardinal George Pell began at the same time the church and police were arguing over the response to the sex abuse crisis.

    By JOHN FERGUSON

  93. JC

    The one thing being noticed by the MSM – even if some don’t want to admit it – Weinberg absolutely destroyed the lezzo and the liar party punk. The contrast between the two sides in terms of intellectual heft is night and day. Good for him and bad for those lightweights.

  94. C.L.

    At The Australian:

    Friend’s funeral fuelled justice pursuit
    George Pell’s downfall began with a funeral. A former choirboy had lost his life. A childhood friend who shared his secret was himself struggling.

    I’m guessing this is supposed to be touching rather than – you know – sinister.
    The other boy said it was bullshit but with him out of the way, old mate was good to go.

  95. None

    No individual is above the law, even the Pope.

    Please point out where laws of evidence were followed.

  96. C.L.

    Weigel is especially scathing of the bird.
    She kept referring to the ‘whole of the evidence.’
    But oops. There wasn’t any.

  97. JC

    Weigel is especially scathing of the bird.

    Did you hear her talk? She sounded like a trannie on medication. She looked like a bloke. Another one of Hulls fantastic achievements.

    I met one his appointments at a dinner years ago. She was a complete attention whore and offensively stupid.

  98. Ubique

    How all hell broke loose over Pell

    The once watertight relationship between Victoria Police and the Catholic Church reached a historical nadir in the days, weeks and months before the force ordered the covert sex abuse investigation into Cardinal George Pell.

    Operation Tethering began in March 2013, at the same time the church and the force were arguing bitterly in private about the response to the sex abuse crisis, with hostile, tit-for-tat exchanges.

    The conflict was exacerbated by some misleading information by Victoria Police to a parliamentary inquiry, which included a misunderstanding about how the church’s sex abuse compensation scheme worked, the number of victims reported to police and the capacity for the abused to report the crimes.

    But there was also deep and understandable police unease about the vastness of the abuse problem that had infected the church and the historical failure of both the church and the force to deal with the issue from the 1950s onwards.

    That unease was vindicated again yesterday when the Court of Appeal upheld the Pell sex abuse convictions.

    Melbourne Response

    At the heart of the angst between police and the church was the way the abuse compensation scheme called the Melbourne Response operated.

    This spat is significant because it explains the period immediately before police chose to investigate Pell without a contemporary formal complaint made by anyone, which sparked allegations that Tethering was a “get Pell” endeavour by the force.

    The Australian has seen hundreds of pages of documents detailing first how Victoria Police largely, and at times fully, supported the Melbourne Response from 1996 until as late as 2010, and had constant dialogue with the church about the way it operated, with police offering advice on how the system could be improved.

    This approval was nuanced and some detectives wanted access to more information from the church but force command, the documents show, was behind the response until less than three years before Pell was investigated.

    The documents also show that at the same time Operation Tethering began, the church was vigorously defending itself behind the scenes over comments by police and lawyers about sex offending and the church.

    On January 15, 2013 — just weeks before Tethering started — the Pell team was still defending the cardinal against claims of wrongdoing levelled against him by a victims’ lawyer to the parliamentary inquiry that concluded he had knowledge of offending by a notorious Catholic brother.

    The battle between the church and the force involved three police commissioners and ignited after high-profile former deputy police commissioner Sir Ken Jones left the force.

    The brawling intensified as police started investigating Pell, without a formal complaint, creating concerns among senior Cath­olics that the investigation was political.

    But The Australian has established that concerns about Pell and possible abuse were raised privately at the Victorian parliament’s Inquiry into the Handling of Child Abuse by Religious and Other Non-Government Organisations.

    The Australian is not suggesting that police were wrong to investigate Pell, given yesterday’s Court of Appeal judgment tends to further bolster the police action.

    But the events leading to Tethering being launched without a formal complaint provide important historical context of what was happening behind the scenes when the operation began.

    Before Tethering

    Jones was a former senior British policeman who fell out with then Victorian police commissioner Simon Overland, with both leaving their jobs prematurely. Jones left in May 2011 and Overland a month later.

    Documents show Jones and others had been working on a new protocol with the church that would have improved liaison between the two groups over clergy abuse and the church believed the police were “very content” with the Melbourne Response.

    The dealings between Jones and the church had been cordial.

    The documents suggest that for 14 years until 2010, police had worked with the church, discussing how to make it effective.

    Police released a media statement on October 30, 1996, headed: “Police support Catholic Church initiatives to combat sexual abuse.” This was at roughly the same time Pell’s sole living accuser in the highest profile abuse case said the cardinal had molested him and another choir boy in St Patrick’s Cathedral, when Pell was archbishop of Melbourne.

    Pell was convicted of five ­charges of molestation, including oral penetration of a child and touching after mass in the cathedral just before Christmas and an incident early the next year.

    The documents seen by The Australian show the church-police relationship changed sharply on September 29, 2011, when current police chief Graham Ashton — then a deputy commissioner — wrote to the church stating the force could no longer publicly support a new protocol with the organisation.

    This was not explicitly because of concerns about the Melbourne Response.

    Rather, it was because the force had ruled that the chief commissioner of the day no longer entered into binding agreements with third parties after an intervention by the police files watchdog that related to the multi-billion-dollar Victorian desalination plant.

    Police had been criticised for striking a deal to make available secret police files on people protesting against the desalination plant, sparking a review of agreements with companies and bodies outside the force.

    Ashton, who was later strongly backed by then police commissioner Ken Lay, sent a short letter to the church on August 24, 2011, rescinding the connection with the organisation over the compensation scheme and protocols for handling abuse.

    Row intensifies

    But Ashton also forcefully told then archbishop Denis Hart the next month: “The reporting and recording of any crime committed by your staff is a matter for you to manage in accordance with the law and natural justice.

    “Our expectations are that those matters are reported to police at the first available opportunity.’’

    This letter, comments made later by Ashton in the media and inaccuracies in the police submission to the state parliamentary inquiry then dramatically escalated the battle between police and the church.

    It must be stressed that Ashton was not alone in the force, or indeed among victim groups, in believing that the Catholic response to abuse was dated and needed overhauling.

    The relationship between the church and police exploded in 2012 when the force wrongly accused the church of failing to report a single case of abuse to police when the church had.

    The church also had actively encouraged victims to report wrongdoing to the force. Under the Melbourne Response, all participants were explicitly told they had the option to report the abuse to police, which was up to the individual concerned.

    There was a series of examples of abuse being reported to police but it was the practice of the process’s independent commissioner at the time, Peter O’Callaghan QC, to agree to the wishes of the abused person. If they didn’t want to report, then he was unable to report it without their approval.

    On May 15, 2012, Hart wrote to Lay, declaring: “As I have said publicly on a number of occasions, the fact is that many of the sexual abuse victims who approach the independent commissioner do so on the condition of confidentiality, having been urged to take their complaint to the police but having declined to do so.

    “It is not my expectation that Victoria Police would want the wishes of victims to be ignored.”

    The archbishop’s language was uncharacteristically strong, also questioning where police were in their analysis of what turned out to be misleading claims by police on the extent of clergy sex abuse-related suicides, which history shows were vastly overstated.

    The Australian reported on June 19, 2013, just weeks after Operation Tethering started, how O’Callaghan had accused Ashton of “blatant untruths”, a “travesty” of justice, “utterly false” claims and of “malicious nonsense” in evidence to the state inquiry.

    On criticism by police of the alleged restrictions placed on sex abuse victims in relation to future legal action and reporting to police, O’Callaghan asserted: “This is utterly false. It is astounding that a responsible organisation such as Victoria Police could put forward to a most important inquiry such blatant untruths.”

    He also rejected police claims that victims were forced into confidentiality agreements if they accepted compensation from the church.

    The timing of O’Callaghan’s defence becomes critical in the context of the pursuit of Pell, which was debated during the cardinal’s committal process.

    Phillip Island

    Exactly why police went after Pell has never been fully explained, particularly in the apparent absence of any formal complaint.

    The Australian has been told, however, that police started investigating Pell after MPs and committee advisers at the state parliamentary inquiry had discussed allegations made previously against Pell during a camp at Phillip Island, 140km south of Melbourne, in 1961-62.

    It is believed the parliamentary inquiry also was made aware of another potential complaint of sexual wrongdoing by Pell that was never pursued because of misgivings about the veracity of the claims.

    “A lot of this really goes back to Phillip Island,” an official familiar with discussions about Pell’s ­activities told The Australian.

    “That’s where you need to look.”

    In 2002, Pell stood down as archbishop of Sydney amid contested claims by a former Catholic student that Pell had molested him at a school camp on Phillip ­Island.

    In the Phillip Island allegations, investigated nearly 20 years ago by retired judge Alec Southwell, Pell was accused of placing his hands down the complainant’s pants and touching his penis and testicles and of forcing him to put his hand down Pell’s pants.

    There also was an alleged case of Pell putting his hands down the complainant’s bathers at the beach.

    Southwell, who died last year, did not find the case proven but found the complainant, an ­alcoholic with 39 convictions from about 20 court appearances, gave the impression he “was speaking honestly from an actual recollection”.

    But he was “not satisfied that the complaint has been established”.

    Pell, Southwell ruled, “also gave me the impression he was speaking the truth”.

    While Pell had used the Southwell findings as evidence of vindication, it was not a knockout blow because of Southwell’s failure to reject outright what the alleged victim had said.

    The Australian revealed in early 2016 that police had revived their interest in the Phillip Island allegations, even though they were more than 50 years old.

    Father Rene Ramirez, whose area of control included the old Braybrook parish in Melbourne’s west, confirmed that a detective visited his pres­by­tery late in 2015 to inspect documents from the 1960s.

    Pell, nicknamed “Big George” by boys at the 60s camp, was at the time a teenage seminarian at Corpus Christi College in Werri­bee, southwest of Melbourne.

    The alleged victim, who would be about 70 today, reportedly did not co-operate with the 2015-16 investigation.

    These details emerged at the same time that Melbourne’s Herald Sun newspaper was about to report how multiple complainants had emerged against Pell, although only one would ever make its way to the County Court.

    In many ways, the Southwell inquiry, the large number of people who accused Pell of wrongdoing and the County Court convictions encapsulate the challenges facing the cardinal’s defenders.

    When does so much smoke not suggest there is a legal bushfire? Was it all a grand conspiracy?

    This conspiracy theory gathers momentum when Pell’s relationship with notorious offender Gerald Ridsdale is considered.

    Pell’s reputation is haunted by his decision in 1993 to attend court with Ridsdale as Ridsdale faced sex crimes charges.

    The parliamentary inquiry reported in November 2013 and its findings then helped trigger the royal commission.

    All the while, police continued their inquiries into Pell until he was charged with the cathedral crimes and mainly water-based offending in the diocese of Ballarat and beyond.

    Pell faced 26 charges from nine complainants when he went to court two years ago, with all of the Ballarat-based offending failing to reach the higher court.

    During the committal, detectives were accused by the defence of single-mindedly pursuing Pell before receiving a complaint against him.

    Defence barrister Robert Richter QC, a strident believer in Pell’s innocence, asked Detective Superintendent Paul Sheridan: “Operation Tethering, that wasn’t a ‘get Pell’ operation, was it?”

    Sheridan responded: “I guess you could term it the way you did, but I wouldn’t term it that way.”

    Sheridan had told the court Tethering began in March 2013 to determine whether Pell had committed crimes that had not been reported.

    It is clear that at the time ­Operation Tethering began, the force was at war with the church and the decision to pursue the ­cardinal without any formal, ­contemporary complaint was ­unusual.

    But force command will take comfort from that fact the Court of Appeal yesterday effectively ratified the detectives’ work by upholding the convictions.

  99. Ubique

    Legal Experts add weight to opinion of dissenting judge

    Despite writing in dissent, judge Mark Weinberg dominated yesterday’s decision in George Pell’s appeal with a 204-page argument that can be summed up in one line: the cardinal’s conviction is unsafe.

    The majority disagreed but Weinberg’s detailed and compelling dissent almost guarantees that the High Court will be asked to re-examine this case.

    This massive dissent is expected to become a guide for any special­ leave application. Even if special leave is refused by the High Court, Weinberg’s rejection of much of the prosecution’s case is set to ensure the community’s deep divisions over this cleric are unlikely to be healed. The

    ANALYSIS
    Legal support for dissenter
    Legal academic Mirko Bagaric said he had been surprised that the two judges who formed the majority had not followed Weinberg, ­because the dissenting judge was “clearly the brightest bloke on the Victorian Court of Appeal”.

    Bagaric, a professor at Swinburne University, said that Weinberg was a “powerhouse” on criminal matters and more experienced in this area than the two judges who formed the majority, chief judge Anne Ferguson and Court of Appeal president Chris Maxwell.

    Weinberg would have acquitted Pell because he believed the jury verdict convicting him of historical­ child sex abuse was unreasonab­le and could not be supported having regard to the evidence.

    Pell’s legal team issued a statement yesterday saying it would thoroughly examine the court’s judgment “in order to determin­e a special leave application to the High Court”.

    Before reaching their decisions, all three judges on the Court of Appea­l read 2000 pages of transcript from Pell’s trial and considered hours of recorded evidence from witnesses.

    If the High Court decides to hear an appeal against yesterday’s ruling, legal academics said the judges on the nation’s highest court would be extremely unlikely to adopt that approach.

    If there is another appeal, the High Court would be asked to answe­r the same question that confronted the Court of Appeal: on the whole of the evidence before­ the jury, was it reasonable to convict Pell?

    That approach was set down by the High Court in a 1994 decision known as M v The Queen. The dissenting­ judgment lists a series of cases in which the High Court has applied the “M” test to overturn jury decisions. Yesterday’s majority judgment, which also relied­ on the “M” test, accepted the prosecution’s argument that the complainant who had accused Pell of sexual abuse was a compelling witness who was neither a liar or a fantasist.

    However, Weinberg listed cases where “notwithstanding the apparent credibility of a complainant in relation to an allegation of sexual abuse, the countervailing circumstances, including any defence evidence, have led the High Court to quash the conviction and enter a verdict of acquittal”.

    One senior legal academic said the differences between the majori­ty and Weinberg were so extensive it might appear to some that they had been considering differen­t cases.

    While Ferguson and Maxwell accepted the complainant’s evidenc­e, Weinberg wrote that Pell’s counsel, Bret Walker SC, had been justified in submitting that the complainant “did, at times embellish aspects of his account”.

    “On occasion he seemed ­almost to ‘clutch at straws’ in an attemp­t to minimise, or overcome, the obvious inconsistencies betwee­n what he had said on ear­lier occasions and what the object­ive evidence clearly showed,” Weinberg wrote.

    Yesterday’s ruling comes at a time when a growing number of decisions by the Victorian Court of Appeal have been overturned by the High Court.

  100. Ubique

    Above article is by Chris Merritt, Legal Affairs Editor of The Australian.

  101. Ivan Denisovich

    Good piece by Paul Collits on the corrupt VicPol and its role in the perversion and denial of justice in Victoria. Fatty Ashton features prominently, of course:

    https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2019/08/ashtons-circus-victorias-blue-clowns/

  102. Zatara

    For those who aren’t familiar with the vestments of those celebrating the Mass.

    It’s important to remember that both the Priests and altar boys are wearing multiple layers of clothing at Mass. Make your own judgement of the basic plausibility of the acts Pell was accused of.

    This thread has correctly pointed out the essential weakness of the prosecution’s rigged case and the lack of spine in two of the three reviewing judges, but the sad truth is that a rabid and vocal portion of the public wanted Catholic blood regardless of facts and truth, and they got it.

    In the end he was convicted of being Catholic.

  103. BorisG

    I’m a bit surprised the Libertarians aren’t up in arms about this notion of hearsay by one accuser being deemed as evidence.

    Well I don’t believe the man committed these offenses. Yet it wasn’t hearsay (see definition of this word) it is a testimony of the victim against the testimony of the accused. I wasn’t at the trial and apparently the 12 jurors were entirely convinced by the victims testimony, beyond reasonable doubt.

    The jury part is most crucial. The appeal’s bar is too high. At a jury trial the person is innocent until proven guilty (beyond reasonable doubt). At the appeal stage it is essentially the other way round. The man is already guilty and you need compelling evidence to overturn it.

  104. BorisG

    Police prosecution and even judges may be wrong or weak but it is hard to fault the jurors. Why would they go against their conscience?

  105. Zatara

    Police prosecution and even judges may be wrong or weak but it is hard to fault the jurors. Why would they go against their conscience?

    That presumes that the jury was presented with all the information available, that the prosecution didn’t withhold exculpatory evidence, that the defense wasn’t hamstrung in their preparation for trial or their presentation of evidence impeded by the illegitimate rulings of a judge, etc. etc..

  106. Police prosecution and even judges may be wrong or weak but it is hard to fault the jurors. Why would they go against their conscience?

    Correct me if I’m wrong, I suspect BorisG had a deeper meaning than the face value of those words.
    The jury did not have a conscience – that is indisputable.

  107. JC

    Driller

    You’re always firing people and ending up at FairWork. Stop it.

  108. JC

    oops wrong thread. please delete.

  109. classical_hero

    Yes, yes, notafan.

    A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
    1 Timothy 3:2

    You specifically said that word didn’t appear and yet it’s right there.

  110. I am the Walras, Equilibrate, and Price-Take

    The Weigel piece is worth reading.

    Since the Pell conviction, friends well connected in Australian legal circles have said that the serious legal community in Australia, as distinguished from ideologues, was becoming deeply concerned about the reputation of Australian justice; thus, it was said, many of those senior legal figures were hoping that the cardinal’s appeal would succeed. Their concerns should now be intensified by orders of magnitude. For on the evidence of this shabby case and this appalling and thoroughly unpersuasive appellate decision, reasonable people will wonder just what “rule of law” means in Australia, and especially in the state of Victoria. Reasonable people will wonder whether it’s safe to travel, or do business, in a social and political climate in which mob hysteria similar to that which sent Alfred Dreyfus to Devil’s Island can manifestly affect juries.

    It’s not just the juries that we have to worry about.

    Living in Idiocracy isn’t much fun.

  111. I am the Walras, Equilibrate, and Price-Take

    ‘When you are dead, you don’t know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others … It is the same when you are stupid.’

    Philippe Geluck

  112. J.H.

    Pell is being persecuted because he is Catholic and because he is a Cardinal….. It is as simple as that. Just as Dreyfus was persecuted because he was Jewish and an army officer.

    We saw with Justice Kavanaugh in America that an innocent man could easily be wrongfully convicted on nothing but the testimony of the accuser for sex crimes when political agendas were involved. No evidence was needed, the accusation by a victim was proof enough…. It was only political numbers that saved Kavanaugh’s career, not his guilt or innocence.

    Then there are the two appellate judges and one of their reasons for rejecting Pell’s appeal because they found that the accuser was “believable”. A very problematic reasoning when one considers that “good” liars by their very nature, are also “believable”. A liar can convince a judge as easily as they can convince the jury. A ruling based on “belief” is nonsensical. Evidence is the standard, not belief.

    So we are back to Dreyfus. Without evidence, these cases boil down to the dominant politics of the era. If you were a Jew in France back in 1894, you would be found guilty of certain crimes and suspicions attributed to Jews of that era… and in this period, the politics and public sentiment require that sexual assault victims are to be believed and all Catholic clergy are prone to pedophilia.

    It leaves Catholics and especially Catholic clergy extremely vulnerable to persecution and bias.

    Anyway, because there was one dissenting appellate judge, Pell will have a good chance of his case being heard in the High court… Perhaps it will be in that court that the bias and politics of our era can be rejected and just the evidence reviewed properly. But I wouldn’t count on it.

  113. John Comnenus

    The Weigel piece is particularly forceful.

    The Pell decision is so obviously biased as is clearly shown by the rigour of Weinberg’s reason.

    This is compounded by the fact that the police established a task force to find a crime where there was no complaint. This is the sinister use of the power of the State to target and destroy its ideological enemies. I think the Merrit piece ends ironically saying that the police task force would feel vindicated by the Pell appeal decision.

    This is, as Weigel suggests, Stalinesque. From the State judiciary and police force that gave us Lawyer X. The Left destroys everything it runs and it has been unequivocally in charge of the justice system in Victoria for decades.

  114. 1735099

    This thread has correctly pointed out the essential weakness of the prosecution’s rigged case

    But forgetting about Pell for a moment, there are a number of issues it has studiously avoided –
    1. The grievous harm done to the victims and their families. Think Chrissie Foster.
    2. The grievous harm done to the church, especially those priests and other religious who daily provide comfort and pastoral compassion to Catholics all over the country.
    3. The question of reforming the institutional church away from its power based hierarchical authoritarian structure, which breeds abuse of the vulnerable. It may have been appropriate for the middle ages. It is no longer.
    Priestly celibacy has always been a serious point of disagreement between the Eastern Orthodox and the Western Roman Catholic churches. It was largely responsible for the Schism between the two in A.D. 1054. Pope Gregory VII attempted to mandate priestly celibacy, but the practice was contested widely by Christians in the Orthodox Eastern Mediterranean world.
    From Catholic Online

    It wasn’t until the medieval period that the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church began to require priestly celibacy. In the 11th century, Pope Gregory VII issued a decree requiring all priests to be celibate and he expected his bishops to enforce it. The decree stuck and celibacy has been the norm ever since in the Latin Rite.

  115. bespoke

    Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
    #3137657, posted on August 21, 2019 at 11:25 pm
    +1. I’m gobsmacked.

    Yes. You would be, wouldn’t you? Anything to put the boot into me, you barbarian.
    You have form in behaving disgracefully towards me on this blog. I am heartily sick of it.

    I don’t think Nick meant it as derogatory Lizzie.

  116. rickw

    Police prosecution and even judges may be wrong or weak but it is hard to fault the jurors. Why would they go against their conscience?

    A jury that’s been immersed over the years in the crimes committed by a tiny number of Catholic Priests whilst at the same time state government institutions and employees have been spared an equivalent degree of investigation and scrutiny. The jury went with their conscience.

  117. Up The Workers!

    Some years ago, the then A.L.P. Deputy Premier of Tasmania was charged with corruption offences in that he looked after two of his former recent Labor Cabinet Minister colleagues, in awarding them a massive non-advertised, non-tendered, Government contract for them to them to form an organisation called the “Tasmanian Compliance Corporation” which all private businesses in the State would be compelled by legislation to Register with annually (and pay the T.C.C. a hefty Annual fee) for the purpose of their Annual Certification in order to pay the T.C.C an Annual Certification fee.

    The day before the case was to go to Court, an enterprising journalist doing some genuine ‘investigative journalism’ (remember that?) discovered that the A.L.P.-appointed Judge who was to try the case, just happened to be the original A.L.P. Campaign Manager many years before, for the first two election campaigns fought by that same Defendant when he first stood for Parliament.

    Evidently this small fact had totally escaped the notice of both the Defendant and the Judge fortuitously appointed to try the case against his very good A.L.P. mate. Once the story was plastered all over the front pages of the Tasmanian papers, the case was embarrassingly deferred until the A.L.P. Misgovernment could arrange a different A.L.P.-appointed Judge, who as expected, routinely acquitted the Deputy Premier of all charges of corruption.

    In what circumstances should a Judge ‘recuse’ him/herself from hearing a case on the grounds of apprehended bias?

    What penalties apply (if any) if he/she fails to do so?

    Given the A.L.P.’s protracted history of hatred and vilification of Cardinal Pell in particular and Catholics in general, ought two of the three Appeal Judges yesterday, with their lengthy personal history of involvement in A.L.P. affairs, have recused themselves from the case?

  118. Cold-Hands

    This gives a better idea of the vestments a bishop wears for a High Mass over his cassock, (although the gloves are often omitted).

  119. Herodotus

    “Why is it that people on this blog believe that their opinion is more correct than those people of the jury and the judges, whom as a society we delegated the decision to.”

    Lindy Chamberlain. Andrew Bolt. Numerous others.
    We can make our own assessment of which one is more likely to be telling the truth.
    We have the support of Justice Weinberg, so your attempted slur on us fails.

  120. Mother Lode

    If we believe that our emotional and unfounded beliefs are more valid than those of our legal system, then our society has some big problems.

    Holy cow! Who wrote that?

    If we hold our beliefs higher than the socio-legal apparatus cobbled together over countless generations of other disparate people who had no idea of us responding to their contemporary circumstances according to their beliefs then we are doing something wrong?

    You have just justified the killing of martyrs (religious or not), those who rebel against tyrannical regimes, people who a regime simply considers inconvenient etc.

    Firstly, if law has precedence over our emotions and beliefs then how is it permissible that laws be amended or removed, or even new ones created if you consider the law as a inter-connected body of laws (since a new law introduced is changing what current laws already dictate).

    Secondly, emotion and belief must go to the very heart of legal systems. Laws must accommodate the beliefs of the people it supposedly reigns over. If it did not then there could be no objection to imposing sharia law in Australia tomorrow.

    Third, the glib dismissal of emotion and belief suggests a very shallow person. Emotions, belief, drives, hopes etc guide our every day life far more than logic. Logic is a very latecomer to humanity. And it has limitations in this context – it only describes what is not what ought to be. So it can create no law. Also, logic is a model of the workings of the world, not the world itself. That is why we can get it wrong and have to deploy more logic to either update the model or identify where we screwed up. Also, logic cannot be logically justified: if you compiled the set of all logical propositions and then sought to prove the set was necessarily true then your proof would belong in the set. You cannot logically talk about ‘Logic’.

    I shall add more when I get to the office.

  121. Herodotus

    The people of Victoria for a time have “delegated decisions to” Labor politicians on who to appoint to the bench. The flaws in this system became evident way back when two Christian pastors were prosecuted for the content of their sermons.
    The consequences of those appointments have been emerging ever since.
    Politicians can shape the institutions of justice here and in the USA, where we have seen brutal tactics used to try to prevent conservative, even mildly conservative, appointments to their supreme court.
    There was a lot of huffing and puffing here back when Dyson Heydon was appointed to the high court – because he was a “black letter law” judge, not a social justice warrior.

  122. stackja

    Leftist mates helping leftist mates? I am shocked!

  123. notafan

    Oh go away numbers you unmitigated troll.

    You add zero value here.

    Zero.

    Why don’t you read the Vatican article I posted yesterday and reflect on Christ’s relationship with the Church?

    the vast majority of sexual abuse of children occurs within the family, what else would you do away with?

    There are many called to celibacy, not just religious but single people as well, and even married people with unwell or absent spouses.

    It doesn’t drive them mad or turn them into criminals

    Unlike what you do,

  124. notafan

    What is your point classical hero other than mere pendancy?

    The verse still doesn’t require a priest or a bishop to be married.

  125. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    analysis of Pell’s video testimony and highlighting of various issues with it.

    https://youtu.be/5fmhLRkeruM?t=986

    it’s possible Pell anticipated what was coming in the questioning or was informed by someone else of what the allegations were. However there are still glaring holes in his statements

  126. notafan

    That 2013 bit in the age report must have been the Vivien what’s her name allegation that Cardinal Pell was present during an attack, even though he was overseas.

    All in all, political pursuit.

  127. notafan

    What glaring holes zippy?

  128. Cassie of Sydney

    “notafan
    #3137790, posted on August 22, 2019 at 6:57 am”

    Careful Nota…..don’t upset the turd…he doesn’t like the truth…..he will start making unsavoury allegations against you.

  129. 1735099

    Why don’t you read the Vatican article I posted yesterday and reflect on Christ’s relationship with the Church?

    I did.
    It doesn’t offer any suggestions as to how the epidemic of abuse of children by those in the church designated with protecting them might be eliminated.

    the vast majority of sexual abuse of children occurs within the family, what else would you do away with?

    That has absolutely nothing to do with clerical abuse of children.

    There are many called to celibacy, not just religious but single people as well, and even married people with unwell or absent spouses.
    It doesn’t drive them mad or turn them into criminals

    But they are not part of a hierarchical authoritarian power-based institution.
    Abuse is about power, not s3x.

  130. notafan

    And I will reiterate there is none of the grooming that the literature clearly shows is associated with educated middle class child sex offenders of which ridsdale was a typical, classical example.

    As I’ve mentioned previously a relative of mine, a very good-looking boy was the altar server for cardinal Pell for several years in a small Parish, extraordinary opportunity but nothing ever happened.

    Yet an absurd scenario in the cathedral at high mass is accepted by some as the truth.

  131. Farmer Gez

    Ubique’s excellent post puts together a telling tale of the history and rationale that has lead to what seems an odd conviction. The 2002 Phillip Island case clearly poisoned the well for Pell far more than the media.

    Seemingly two appeal judges agreed with the jury that the case against Pell was not impossible. No witnesses remembered the boys leaving the choir or returning. No witnesses recall Pell leaving the processional.

    The conviction solely stands on the word of the complainant and nothing else, as no supportive witness can be found to verify the victims account.

    It’s a very concerning legal precedent set in this case that Weinberg takes issue with. Pell’s guilt or otherwise may take a backseat to the legal storm this case will unleash.

    The standard of proof set in this case is one very few could counter if a malicious party decided to take someone down.

  132. notafan

    There was no ‘epidemic’.

    Well not unless you admit that the combination of the sexual revolution (which had 1960s progressives had their way would have included full access to children) and the presence of homosexual priests was an ‘epidemic’.

    And that it has been reminded many times percentage wise abuse in the uniting church which has married pastors was far worse than what was seen in the Catholic Church.

    Thank goodness Pope Benedict and Pope Francis have banned homosexuals from entering seminaries and Pope Francis has gone further and told existing gays to stay chaste or get out.

    Telling homosexual men to get married to women as a solution for child sex abuse is pretty stupid don’t you think?

    And yes there were a small number of female victims.

    Oh please that trope about power, lots of people have power, that doesn’t involve abusing people sexually, you had power over your students did you not?

    Is very clear that a very small number of people get sexual gratification in very bizarre ways and some are attracted to children, and some get off having an unwilling victim etc but that is sexual gratification from the use of power, not mere power.

    I’m sure you can think of some examples yourself.

    I would add the very obvious, that the Catholic Christianity itself was the means by which sexual use of children was made immoral in our civilization.

    It was certainly present and normal in the ancient world and it’s certainly present and normal in many cultures around the world today.

  133. notafan

    It’s okay Cassie.

    No one wants to see the ban hammer go smashing down, do they 🙂

  134. Win

    If it is as it appears that someone decided to nominate Cardinal Pell as a prisoner and then proceeded to fix him up with a crime using the possibility of a million dollar pay out as a bait, then we do have very serious problems not only with the judiciary but also with our elected politicians who have created the problem. Interesting the only politician who stood with the Cardinal was Abbott who then lost his seat.

  135. stackja

    Why is it that people on this blog believe that their opinion is more correct than those people of the jury and the judges, whom as a society we delegated the decision to.

    I don’t know that the jury was impartial.
    And the MSM wanted what?
    The two judges were appointed by who?
    Again Lindy was convicted by a jury.

  136. 1735099

    And that it has been reminded many times percentage wise abuse in the uniting church which has married pastors was far worse than what was seen in the Catholic Church.

    Post your evidence for this statement.
    The issue is not celibacy so much as authoritarian unaccountable hierarchy.
    The combination is toxic.

    Telling homosexual men to get married to women as a solution for child sex abuse is pretty stupid don’t you think?

    So who is suggesting this?

    I would add the very obvious, that the Catholic Christianity itself was the means by which sexual use of children was made immoral in our civilization.

    That is ahistorical rubbish.

  137. Mother Lode

    I have heard kiddy fiddling is rather more prevalent among teachers (esp state school teachers) than among priests.

    If only they were allowed to marry!

  138. stackja

    Win
    #3137806, posted on August 22, 2019 at 7:38 am

    Liberty Quote
    The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who, in a time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.
    — Dante

  139. Diogenes

    One of the swampies I work with was overjoyed with the result , light started to go on when I said …
    Ok … Two of your former students accuse you of forcing them to give you a BJ

    They say it happened in 2015 – “But I didn’t start here until last year”, … oops sorry it was last year on July 17 … “but that’s in the middle of the holidays” … oops meant 17th of August

    They say it happened in room … “but that was closed all last year because of mould and asbestos issues” oh sorry we meant room … “that’s the drama room and last year it was a book room” … oh sorry it really happened in …. (room with big glass sliding doors)

    They say it happened during period 3 , “hang on I was in class”, oh we meant period 4 , “that was a free I would have been in the staffroom ask anyone” – no we won’t, and even if we do we won’t believe them

    They say that you were pulling your pants down, whilst holding the back of one’s head to do the business, while grabbing the shoulder of the other one to stop them from running away … “hang on when did I get 3 arms ?”

    I have personalised to you what happened to him, would you be guilty or not ?

  140. Sinclair Davidson

    Venn diagram time:
    1. Those people who argue that the death penalty is inappropriate because the judiciary make too many mistakes.
    2. Those people who argue that Pell is definitely guilty because the judiciary said so.

    Overlap: Those people who have no need for intellectual consistency.

  141. Pyrmonter

    @ notafan

    And the source for your ‘whattaboutery’ claims about the UCA (and by implication, also Anglican, Salvationist, Presbyterian, Witness and Lutheran groups)? Is there any evidence of a practice of removing suspected criminals to remote locations in those groups? How do the wrongs of others reduce the culpability of the Roman church?

  142. stackja

    Those who have erred over many years on many matters, err again. Reinforces their error on Pell verdict.

  143. Cassie of Sydney

    “Sinclair Davidson
    #3137816, posted on August 22, 2019 at 7:57 am
    Venn diagram time:
    1. Those people who argue that the death penalty is inappropriate because the judiciary make too many mistakes.
    2. Those people who argue that Pell is definitely guilty because the judiciary said so.

    Overlap: Those people who have no need for intellectual consistency.”

    Bravo Sinc.

  144. Iampeter

    Lets be very accurate here. The rock spiders you refer to were homosexuals prying on boys.

    Yes trying to conflate pedophilia with homosexuality in order to protect pedophiles and down play the alleged issues is totally something a stable minded, not at all toxic and vile, exceptional individual like yourself would do.

    Please, tell us more about the conspiracy to get Pell…

  145. Pyrmonter

    @ Sinc

    Despite the claims on CL’s post and elsewhere on this thread, these are capable, senior judges. They, unlike you, I and the rest of the commenters here, have seen the complainant’s video evidence. Having scanned through the judgment, I am inclined to think Weinberg’s is the more robust, but I can’t see the animus or incompetence on the part of the majority others suggest. Many, if not all, of the complaints made against the reasoning – that it is based on the testimony of a single witness; of inherent implausibility – are issues that were addressed and answered in ways that are not self-evidently unreasonable.

  146. Cassie of Sydney

    “yrmonter
    #3137817, posted on August 22, 2019 at 7:58 am
    @ notafan

    And the source for your ‘whattaboutery’ claims about the UCA (and by implication, also Anglican, Salvationist, Presbyterian, Witness and Lutheran groups)? Is there any evidence of a practice of removing suspected criminals to remote locations in those groups? How do the wrongs of others reduce the culpability of the Roman church?”

    It has happened in other denominations…and other religions…..it has happened in Jooooooish communities (something I do know about)…there was a situation of a coverup of sexual abuse in the Adass community in Melbourne. The woman in question was simply sent back to Isr**l and there is now a legal situation to get her back to Australia to face trial. I also have no doubt that it has also happened in Buddhist, Muesli and other religious communities.

  147. stackja

    1960s ‘morality’ was normalised? What could possibly go wrong?
    One is now held responsible for all others failing?

  148. stackja

    Rainbow sash celebrating?

  149. Cassie of Sydney

    “culpability of the Roman church”

    Those words reek of animus towards the Catholic church.

  150. calli

    Reporter on Seven stating that “Pell will die behind bars”. How can he possibly know this? Pell is 78. The sentence is 6 years.

    The hatred is an unreasoning, frothing bubble of bile. It reminds me of Chamberlain.

    And Sinc’s Venn diagram.

  151. C.L.

    Thanks, Ubique.
    So it’s now confirmed that Victoria Police and Labor members of the parliamentary inquiry decided to get Pell after Graham Ashton was caught lying to that inquiry and held to embarrassing account for those lies by the Church’s barrister.
    I first proposed this thesis about four years ago.

  152. Sinclair Davidson

    Pyrmonter – yes, you are correct on all those points.

    Yet I remain unconvinced. I’m especially concerned by this:

    They, unlike you, I and the rest of the commenters here, have seen the complainant’s video evidence.

    But as the comment that I extracted from the thread indicates this is the system that we have established.

  153. stackja

    Roman Catholics live in Rome Italy. The Roman church is in Rome Italy.

  154. notafan

    There is no ‘whataboutery’ I’m not excusing sexual abuse in the Catholic Church I’m simply pointing out that it was not an ‘epidemic’ and nor was it caused by the celibacy rule.

    And no one was removed to ‘remote’ locations, you just made that up.

    The sad fact is offending Christian brothers, for example, went from one Christian Brothers boys school to another boys school, and risdale went from one country parish in the diocese of Ballarat to another country Parish in the diocese of Ballarat.

    And I will repeat that in the 60s and 70s people were not aware of the recidivuous (spelling?)nature of child sex abusers. Ridsdale, for example, was sent for treatment in the US.

    There is no real cure, as it’s a sexual orientation.
    The percentages by denomination from the RC have been documented, they are available if you go looking for them.

    As to whether or not people will moved in other denominations I don’t know and I don’t know that it’s relevant. I would be very surprised if there was a one strike you’re out policy in any denomination back then, though.

    Perhaps you could tell me.

    As for ‘suspected criminals’ yes well you should also remind yourself the police didn’t want to know about child sex offences (or rape for that matter) back in the day either.

    And perhaps you should read what I wrote not what you think I wrote.

  155. Cassie of Sydney

    ““culpability of the Roman church””

    reminds me of something that the late Reverend Ian Paisley would have said.

  156. stackja

    Liberty Quote
    A gruber (n.) is someone who grubes (v.i.) – they tell people, who they have lied to, how stupid they were to have believed the lie they were told.
    — Steve Kates

    Victorian grubers?

  157. Tel

    1. Those people who argue that the death penalty is inappropriate because the judiciary make too many mistakes.

    My argument against the death penalty is that you have at least the potential for a rogue state to use that as a political weapon. It’s happened a lot of times elsewhere.

    Then again, having police first deciding a crime has been committed and then afterwards calling for someone to come forwards and be the victim, does have something of a political edge to it.

  158. Iampeter

    I’m a bit surprised the Libertarians aren’t up in arms about this notion of hearsay by one accuser being deemed as evidence.

    There is a laundry list of items to be concerned about. That is one of many.

    Far be it for you to speak on behalf of libertarians. Being a screaming imbecile does not make one a libertarian. Not sure how you got yourself all confused there.

    In any case, this is not on a list of concerns and has actually been addressed by the few not crazy posters in this very thread.

    As usual, all too many Cat posters are more interested in reinforcing their pre-conceived notions than actually reaching any kind of understanding. Consistency and self-respect be damned.

  159. notafan

    If Christianity wasn’t responsible for reforming sexual behaviour among people who became Christians, what was numbers?

    you know the history, tell us about it.

    Like most anti Christian secularists you want to stand on the achievements of the Catholic Church and insist they belong to somebody else.

  160. dover_beach

    The jury part is most crucial. The appeal’s bar is too high. At a jury trial the person is innocent until proven guilty (beyond reasonable doubt). At the appeal stage it is essentially the other way round. The man is already guilty and you need compelling evidence to overturn

    Boilerplate and wrong. Have you actually read Weinberg’s dissent. The judges in this appeal are asked to make their own judgement, if Pell was guilty beyond reasonable doubt, and if they had a doubt given the whole of the evidence the jury should also have had a doubt and thereby the appeal granted and the conviction set aside.

  161. Pyrmonter

    @ notafan

    The practice of moving RC priests and brothers from community to community, out of the circulation of rumour and gossip, has, sadly, been established. Those locations were ‘remote’ from each other. So far as I am aware, it had no counterpart in the protestant churches – their governance structures, which failed in other ways, weren’t conducive to it.

    There has been a duty to report serious crime known to the common law since time immemorial: I suggest you consult Google QC on ‘misprision of felony’ and ‘compounding’.

  162. C.L.

    The Royal Commission established that the most dangerous religious institution for children was the Uniting Church.

  163. Iampeter

    No individual is above the law, even the Pope.

    The problem is you’re trying to ask people who have no principles to stand on principle. Good luck with that.

  164. Sinclair Davidson

    Unfortunately most jurisdictions have moved away from the notion that it is a crime to fail to report a crime.

  165. dover_beach

    They, unlike you, I and the rest of the commenters here, have seen the complainant’s video evidence

    As mentioned above:

    922 The Australian Law Reform Commission, in its ground breaking work that led ultimately to the enactment of the Uniform Evidence Law, reviewed a great deal of psychological research concerning the demeanour of witnesses. That research almost universally concluded that facial reaction and bodily behaviour were unlikely to assist in arriving at a valid conclusion about the evidence of most witnesses.[219]

    923 Lord Justice Atkin, when a member of the English Court of Appeal, had this to say regarding demeanour as a guide to credibility:[220]

    an ounce of intrinsic merit or demerit in the evidence, that is to say the value of the comparison of evidence with known facts, is worth pounds of demeanour.

    924 These days, there are many more indicia of both credibility and reliability than demeanour on its own. Some of these can be characterised as ‘objective.’[221] Accordingly, demeanour is frequently relegated to a less prominent position in the assessment process than it has in the past. Judges often, in their charges to juries, warn of the dangers of giving too much weight to this factor, and certainly more weight than it should properly bear.

    925 In the present case, the prosecution relied entirely upon the evidence of the complainant to establish guilt, and nothing more.[222] There was no supporting evidence of any kind from any other witness. Indeed, there was no supporting evidence of any kind at all. These convictions were based upon the jury’s assessment of the complainant as a witness, and nothing more.

    926 Mr Boyce, in his submissions to this Court, did not shrink from that having been the entire prosecution case at trial. Indeed, as indicated, he invited the members of this Court to approach this ground of appeal in exactly the same way. He asked this Court to focus upon the complainant’s demeanour in assessing his credibility and reliability, and to treat that matter as decisive. And, as previously indicated, he relied heavily upon a particularly emotional exchange between the complainant and Mr Richter as to why the complainant had never told anyone, at the time, about either incident, or discussed it with the other boy.

  166. Cassie of Sydney

    “C.L.
    #3137853, posted on August 22, 2019 at 8:30 am
    The Royal Commission established that the most dangerous religious institution for children was the Uniting Church.”

    That’s right…but when you’re imbued with anti-Catholic hatred…just like anti-Semitism…you’ll happily believe anything about people or institutions you hate….just like people who believe that we Joooooos poison wells…people are also looking for “things” to affirm their existing hatreds.

  167. Pyrmonter

    @ Cassie

    You raise an interesting point. Although it’s almost forgotten now, there was a time when this country divided quite strongly along confessional lines, with each confessional grouping exhibition ‘tribal resentments’ toward the other: at a very general level, with Roman Catholics resentful of the British-influence of the protestants and resentful of their lot in life (often explained in terms of exploitation and conspiracy on the part of protestants and masons, in a fashion not unlike that of secular marxists – a modern, secularised example being the prejudices of the near retirement ABC journalist Geraldine Doogue). On the protestant side, a sense that the Roman catholics were unduly influenced by anti-protestant (and ‘dis-loyal’) Irish republican sentiments, peculiar foreign allegiances, and a disdain for often camp liturgical practice and what, from a protestant viewpoint, was idolatry. I’d thought those divisions so feint now as to require explanation to younger readers: they could be parodied in the 70s by Monty Python, but by and large, few under 30 understand the divisions or the rhetoric. Yet, in Weigel’s piece in First Things in particular, one sees again the sense of tribal victimhood.

  168. Pyrmonter

    CL – a reference please? The most sinister cluster appears to have been in the Newcastle Anglican diocese, though even there some of the RC’s report conclusions (especially in respect of the involvement of the church’s lawyers) have to be treated as tendentious.

  169. Iampeter

    These “survivors” are being used, just as the Cardinal is being used, to advance an anti-christ14n diatribe.

    So wanting justice, even in the misguided action of painting Pell with the broad brush of the entire church, for the alleged and endless amounts of abuse cases, many alleged perpetrators having escaped justice thanks to the alleged cover up by the church, is “anti-Christian?” Hmm.

    The legal tradition of this country, which is built on the Chr1stian faith, is based on individual responsibility not on a collectivist accountability.

    No legal tradition in any Western country is built on the Christian faith precisely because they are based on individual responsibility not collectivism.

  170. Pyrmonter

    @ Sinc

    Which jurisdictions? Archbishop Wilson of Adelaide was first convicted and then acquitted on appeal of a ‘failing to report’ offence in NSW. At a general level, I believe there are similar statutory offences elsewhere; and that the repeals were the work of recommendations of law reform bodies aimed not at the substance of the obligation but at its modernisation. It often coincided with the introduction of ‘mandatory reporting’ obligations, which look likely to become the next battle in the culture wars.

  171. Iampeter

    Like most anti Christian secularists you want to stand on the achievements of the Catholic Church and insist they belong to somebody else.

    Au contraire. Like most Christians you want to stand on the achievements of Western civilization, achievements opposed every single step of the way, often homicidally, by the church and still take credit for them.

    The cargo cultism of religious conservatives who think Western civilization is in any way Christian is one of the biggest reasons they are the Wests biggest enemy.

  172. Dr Faustus

    Their ABC moves on to the next hurdle facing the Vatican:

    George Pell’s failed appeal is now a monumental test for Pope Francis and the Vatican

    Vatican spokesman Matteo Bruni said Pell had been removed from public ministry, but any possible further sanctions would not be decided yet.

    “The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is awaiting the outcome of the ongoing proceedings and the conclusion of the appellate process prior to taking up the case,” he said.

    Journalist and Vatican analyst Deborah Castellano Lubov said the Vatican was being “prudent” by delaying its own investigation.

    “The Vatican does not take lightly the sentences or rulings of the Australian courts; however, there have been cases where innocent people have been accused and they eventually won their appeals,” she said.

    The “monumental test” will be trying to shoehorn respect for the verdict and the Victorian judicial system into a DoF investigation that instinctively appreciates the colossal improbability of an Archbishop, in full fig, after solemn Mass, legging it from the door of St Stephens back through the cathedral, for a quick encounter with two naughty choirboys.

  173. Mother Lode

    If Christianity wasn’t responsible for reforming sexual behaviour among people who became Christians, what was numbers?

    Class struggle and the need to eliminate the counter-revolutionary excesses of reactionary individuality to mold an effective weapon to be deployed against the running-dog capitalist ruling class.

    Geez, nota. You walked right into that one.

  174. 1735099

    You know the history, tell us about it.

    No, you made the statement, so you tell us about it.

  175. Leigh Lowe

    Pyrmonter

    #3137869, posted on August 22, 2019 at 8:40 am

    CL – a reference please? The most sinister cluster appears to have been in the Newcastle Anglican diocese, though even there some of the RC’s report conclusions (especially in respect of the involvement of the church’s lawyers) have to be treated as tendentious.

    The Newcastle Anglicans must have been pretty bad to have been worse than the Ballarat Catholics.
    But perhaps it is time to give the (ahem) dick measuring contests a rest.
    It was atrocious criminal abuse of the worst kind, often committed against the poorest and most defenceless.
    Whatever one might think of the Pell conviction, let’s not diminish the crimes of Ridsdale, Best, Dowlan et al.
    I know the claims of 40-odd suicides in Victoria can be disputed, but I will tell you something for nothing … it has left a trail of shell-like barely functioning adults, numbering far more than 40.

  176. herodotus

    Weinberg’s judgement appeals to me for its clarity and common sense, as did those of the famous Lord Denning – to me and many law students! Maggie Thatcher was also an admirer of Denning.

  177. herodotus

    Two scroll-pasts in this thread.

  178. dover_beach

    Thanks, Ubique.
    So it’s now confirmed that Victoria Police and Labor members of the parliamentary inquiry decided to get Pell after Graham Ashton was caught lying to that inquiry and held to embarrassing account for those lies by the Church’s barrister.
    I first proposed this thesis about four years ago.

    Indeed.

  179. Pyrmonter

    @ Leigh Lowe

    Indeed. And clusters of behaviours I simply cannot explain: how the Adelaide Anglicans dealt with Brandenburg and Mountford in the 1990s defies belief.

  180. stackja

    Another ‘crime’:

    Cardinal Pell’s views on climate change are his own – Eureka Street

    Cardinal George Pell has made a name for himself as a denier of radical climate change.

  181. Leigh Lowe

    And I will repeat that in the 60s and 70s people were not aware of the recidivuous (spelling?)nature of child sex abusers. Ridsdale, for example, was sent for treatment in the US.

    That is a contradiction.
    They sent him to the US precisely because he was a recidivist and out of control. Mulkearns had bulging files full of complaints which were totally independent of each other.
    Parents from Ballarat, Mortlake, Warrnambool, Hamilton and elsewhere who could not have possibly known each other.
    And the treatment was “leading edge” and unproven, which should have resulted in Mulkearns giving Ridsdale a back-office job upon his return with strict protocols about any contact with children … as in, none.

  182. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    That is the same arrangement that any of us would face in a similar situation.

    And that is the reason for the extremely grave concerns expressed here about a miscarriage of justice in this instance. If one appellate judge of three can so strongly dissent in the terms he outlines, then there is clearly a problem. Let us note that in this case there is not even evidence that might reach the status of ‘flimsy’. When the statements of the accused are so readily dismissed while those of the accuser are given another status altogether, and when the verdict seems reliant entirely on these, while two juries have disagreed and the accuser is a protected person, then the justice system into which we all put our trust fails to function as it should.

    Australia’s Dreyfus case. A ‘Show’ trial. We should be ashamed.

  183. candy

    Whatever one might think of the Pell conviction, let’s not diminish the crimes of Ridsdale, Best, Dowlan et al.

    Strangely these terrible crimes are never in the media. Most people will never ever have heard of them. It is all Pell who has becomes the face of Catholic child abuse, although he has not committed a crime.

    Perhaps the victims of Ridsdale etc feel compensated for Cardinal Pell being held responsible. Who could blame them? But it’s not really how justice should work, but someone has to pay in these times. I think Cardinal Pell knows the score and maybe even somewhat accepted it as his role. It is very hard on him, to be in prison for someone else’s crimes. I wonder if he is still in some shock.

  184. Cassie of Sydney

    “Leigh Lowe
    #3137885, posted on August 22, 2019 at 8:55 am”

    Excellent comment LL.

  185. C.L.
    #3137853, posted on August 22, 2019 at 8:30 am
    The Royal Commission established that the most dangerous religious institution for children was the Uniting Church.

    The RC based its findings on voluntary surveys which got less than 50% response from individual dioceses, which is a problematic way to establish facts beyond reproach.

    Perhaps a more apposite stat is the amount of money paid out to victims since (roughly) the 80s:
    Uniting Church: $17.5M
    Catholic Church: $258.8M

  186. struth

    Good Lord.
    Celibacy causes P e d o philia?
    A mate of mine has confided in me that his fat ugly Mrs and him haven’t had sex in years.
    He drives a truck.
    He runs it thought the knuckle every now and then, and keeps working.
    He has three boys to support, and still loves his wife.
    Celibacy doesn’t cause homo pedo….philia.
    I’m being a bit crass on purpose.
    He doesn’t

  187. Mother Lode

    Oh, the huge-Monatee!

  188. Leigh Lowe

    Perhaps the victims of Ridsdale etc feel compensated for Cardinal Pell being held responsible.

    Possibly.
    I guess if you are victim # 68 of Ridsdale and you are bundled with victims 59 – 72 in a single trial where Ridsdale pleads guilty via video in a 30 minute hearing, saying he “doesn’t remember the details”, and he gets another concurrent five year sentence, it could leave you feeling a bit disenfranchised.
    Particularly if you buy into the story that it was Pell, not Mulkearns who acted as Ridsdale’s travel agent around the diocese.

  189. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    an ounce of intrinsic merit or demerit in the evidence, that is to say the value of the comparison of evidence with known facts, is worth pounds of demeanour.

    It is indeed, my learned Justice. Well said for us, who put our faith in legal determination.

    ‘Demeanour’ was a crucial aspect in the charging, condemning and imprisoning of Lindy Chamberlain.
    So was religious prejudice.

  190. struth

    Can we look at the homo angle in this, or are we not allowed to?
    I’m not talking about this plain miscarriage of justice against Pell, because he is innocent until proven guilty, which no one has yet. (there is no evidence at all………none)

    Why are all the complaints nearly always homo pedo….philia acts?
    Are we allowed to ask these questions, Oh grandstanding virtue signalling lefties, who care not at all for the victims if all analysis of the problem is not allowed to be studied according to your pseudo feelings of righteousness?

  191. Sinclair Davidson

    Pyrmonter – reporting a crime is no longer a general obligation at the common law, but rather applies to specific individuals as a consequence of the position they hold.

  192. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    I’m being a bit crass on purpose.

    Good on you, Struth. ‘The people’ do have a right to both think, and speak.

  193. C.L.

    Yes, Monty, that’s because the Catholic Church ran more schools and institutions than all of the other denominations combined – and for a lot longer. Also because the UC doesn’t have any money because it no longer really exists as any kind of significant social force. But statistically, pro rata, the worst offender was the Uniting Church.

  194. struth

    Many men for many reasons go without sex for years.
    Wars, working away, not rich, ugly or in many cases in this day and age, there are by my estimation a few million men who know they have too many years on to start again, the sex has stopped long ago at home and they neither can afford (thanks to government on the woman’s side) nor want to start again.
    They resolve to deal with it as men.
    They live non sexual lives and think about going fishing.
    Occasionally running it through the knuckle, get a clear head and get on with it.

    Only a young person or maybe women, because they are not men, could believe that celibacy leads to homo pedofeelya.
    If celibacy caused homo pedofeelya, there would be a national emergency.

  195. Leigh Lowe

    Pyrmonter

    #3137907, posted on August 22, 2019 at 9:13 am

    @ Leigh Lowe

    Indeed. And clusters of behaviours I simply cannot explain: how the Adelaide Anglicans dealt with Brandenburg and Mountford in the 1990s defies belief.

    I can explain it.
    They were peter-files (almost exclusively oriented towards male victims) who sought each other out and formed a peter-file ring.
    They passed victims around and covered for each other.
    St Alipius in Ballarat was a prime example. It attracted peter-files like bees to a honey pot.
    If you believe that was unfortunate coincidence, I’ve got a bridge for sale.

  196. candy

    It could leave you feeling a bit disenfranchised.

    Much more than that, I feel. One priest would be much like the other if you ‘ve been through what some of these people have experienced.

    but Anglicans, Catholics, Uniting Church, Salvos – in these modern times of electronic media George Pell is the one most people associate with child sexual abuse in a religious setting. I really believe most people have never heard of the other abusers and simply associate George Pell as the abuser and that he belongs in jail. It’s simply evolved that way. Someone must pay for what happened in the past to put things to rest. (that’s not my thinking – but it’s how I see the situation where there is no evidence at all but a man is found guilty).

  197. Leigh Lowe

    Can we stop with per-capita vs absolute comparisons of which church or institution had the worst peter-file record.
    These were kids FFS.
    Raped by adults.
    Don’t reduce it to dots on a graph please.

  198. candy

    They passed victims around and covered for each other.

    Like the Epstein saga.

  199. Roger

    The cargo cultism of religious conservatives who think Western civilization is in any way Christian is one of the biggest reasons they are the Wests biggest enemy.

    Peter, look up Larry Seidentop’s last book.

    He’s not a religious conservative, btw.

  200. struth

    The cargo cultism of religious conservatives who think Western civilization is in any way Christian is one of the biggest reasons they are the Wests biggest enemy.

    No knowledge of what our laws are based on, indeed the first sentence of our constitution and that once the common man was allowed to read the bible and it was taken from the hands of the elites, the west started to go gangbusters.
    Ours IS beyond any rational argument a Christian culture , and has only been able to flourish and become so because of the inherent freedom of choice in the bible, and the Christian value of self governance and responsibility.
    I find it farcical someone so completely ahistoric and who shows no understanding of the Christian faith pontificates on this, when obviously he couldn’t find his ahistoric arse with both of his Christian benefitted hands.

  201. Leigh Lowe

    Indeed. And clusters of behaviours I simply cannot explain: 

    If you want statistics, try these:-
    1. At one point in time in the late 70’s/early 80’s the percentage of male teachers at St Alipius in Ballarat East who were peter-files … 100%.
    2. Gerald Ridsdale’s successor in the parish of Mortlake estimated the number of boys at the parish school aged beteen 10 and 16 molested by Ridsdale to be … 100%.

  202. struth

    Can we stop with per-capita vs absolute comparisons of which church or institution had the worst peter-file record.
    These were kids FFS.
    Raped by adults.
    Don’t reduce it to dots on a graph please.

    If you want statistics, try these:-
    1. At one point in time in the late 70’s/early 80’s the percentage of male teachers at St Alipius in Ballarat East who were peter-files … 100%.
    2. Gerald Ridsdale’s successor in the parish of Mortlake estimated the number of boys at the parish school aged beteen 10 and 16 molested by Ridsdale to be … 100%.

    Statistic are fine but graphs are not.
    Gotcha.

  203. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    The hatred is an unreasoning, frothing bubble of bile. It reminds me of Chamberlain.

    I’ve just read upthread and seen this, Calli. See my parallel comment on this case too, written before I’d seen yours. I still haven’t had time yet to read fully back thread; others may have noted this similarity too.

    This case does have all the hysteria of the Chamberlain case, including the element of a puerile obsession with the ritual aspects of Christian belief, what one might term the Dan Brown syndrome. In Pell’s case, we see this in the focus by some, including the accuser, on the transcendental aspects of Catholic belief dramatically ritualized in the paraphernalia (the ‘trappings’ some would accuse) of the sacred Mass. In the Chamberlain case we see it with imaginings of the ‘dark’ aspects of a little understood Christian sect, fueled by hypothesizing about a child’s Biblical name of Azaria, and about a black garment said to be worn by the child, made even darker by the hint of the cruel infantizising feminine aka the nature of the witch. Children, as babies or as under-age innocents abused, bring out a special sort of response, beyond reason, in the minds of those anti-religionists.

    We have seen this unreasoning response, as Cassie notes, with regard to her own co-religionists in another Religion of the Book. People of the third Religion of the Book also feel this denigration about their particular beliefs and practices, which unsurprisingly turns them defensive should their co-religionists add real fuel to real flames there.

    Tolerance is a virtue.
    So is the freedom to speak, and the desire to live by the rule of law, properly applied.

  204. struth

    Here we have a man who is in jail with no evidence against him.
    He is the head of Christianity in Australia.
    Our judiciary and the lefties here, I ask you, if Pell is responsible for all others actions in his church, which Mufti should we charged for all the FGM that has occurred, and the gang raaaaaaaaaaaaaaapes and terrorist acts done in the name of the ROP?
    We have overwhelming proof in these instances.
    So which Mufti would you condemn?

  205. Pyrmonter

    @ Leigh Lowe

    While I’ve been critical of it upthread, I expect some answers to my questions lie in the unreleased parts of the RC report regarding Pell’s conduct.

    But there is nothing more to come (afaik) on the Anglicans or UCA or Witnesses etc. And there, I simply cannot fathom how intelligent, able and learned men (and a few women) have presided over what has occurred. Naivety explains some of it, and in a few cases, venality. But how this came to pass is something those (including me) who remain church-goers need to consider carefully. On that, I thought the RC’s criticism of priestly celibacy and ‘clericalism’ failed the test of institutional comparison: there is no such institution among the Salvationists or Witnesses, and the culture of the UCA, Anglicans (in most dioceses) and Presbyterians was and is quite different to the caricature set out in the RC report.

  206. Pyrmonter

    @ Sinc

    This is the provision under which Wilson was convicted and then acquitted. It has general application, and the cases in which the validity of the charges against Wilson were tested have clarified some of the uncertainties about its interpretation. I can’t speak for Victoria, but recall that there is something similar in South Australia: http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s316.html

  207. Iampeter

    There has been a duty to report serious crime known to the common law since time immemorial

    I think an argument can be made that actively moving priests around may constitute more than merely “failing to report a crime.”
    This is why I’m sympathetic to the argument that people are using Pell’s trial to go after the church. But while that’s wrong that certainly shouldn’t be dismissed as anti-Christian bias or conspiracy.
    The worst thing about this is the attempts by Christians to endlessly whitewash alleged injustices and conspiracies, instead of making principled arguments in support of a fair trial, only to then complain about injustice and conspiracies.

    “Leigh Lowe
    #3137885, posted on August 22, 2019 at 8:55 am”
    Excellent comment LL.

    Yes it is.

  208. Cassie of Sydney

    “Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
    #3137972, posted on August 22, 2019 at 10:15 am”

    Great comment Lizzie.

  209. Stimpson J. Cat

    Venn diagram time:
    1. Those people who argue that the death penalty is inappropriate because the judiciary make too many mistakes.
    2. Those people who argue that Pell is definitely guilty because the judiciary said so.

    3. Those people who argue Judges wearing helmets should deal with all of the Judges wearing wigs.

    😁

  210. Yes, Monty, that’s because the Catholic Church ran more schools and institutions than all of the other denominations combined – and for a lot longer. Also because the UC doesn’t have any money because it no longer really exists as any kind of significant social force. But statistically, pro rata, the worst offender was the Uniting Church.

    The Catholic Church is around six times as large as the Uniting Church in terms of followers. The Catholic Church’s payouts for abuse cases were around 15 times as large as those by the Uniting Church. You do the maths.

  211. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Ours IS beyond any rational argument a Christian culture , and has only been able to flourish and become so because of the inherent freedom of choice in the bible, and the Christian value of self governance and responsibility.

    Well said, Struth. Additionally though, a general anthropology would suggest to us that people world-wide do need some sense of commonality that is best expressed by communal ritualized acts. In the Catholicism of both the Eastern Empire and the West, this became highly elaborated. A ritual long tradition was established. Many millions have drawn and still do draw comfort from their Catholic ritual practice, carrying ideas of communion, grace, forgiveness and ritually mediated contact with the transubstantiated godhead. This tradition, great schism or not, has also been a source of the highest art and music of the Western tradition, a grand heritage indeed. So while Protestantism may indeed have freed up the Bible, granting to the ‘common man’ its wealth of moral ideals and the individualist responsibility for self and opportunity for personal gnosis, that is not the whole story of the rise of the West. Far too simplified and Weberian (Weber aligned Protestantism with the rise of capitalism). 🙂

  212. Mother Lode

    Funny, isn’t it?

    The left used to whine about the right to free speech until they were in a position of power, whereupon they insisted speech had to be regulated.

    They also used to insist people should distrust institutions – until they seized control of institutions. Then guess what they started saying…

  213. Can we stop with per-capita vs absolute comparisons of which church or institution had the worst peter-file record.
    These were kids FFS.
    Raped by adults.
    Don’t reduce it to dots on a graph please.

    If you ban CL from whataboutery, he will have no other arguments at all.

  214. Bar Beach Swimmer

    Priestly celibacy has always been a serious point of disagreement between the Eastern Orthodox and the Western Roman Catholic churches. It was largely responsible for the Schism between the two in A.D. 1054.

    Primarily, it was the filioque and papal primacy.

    From Wiki
    Filioque (Ecclesiastical Latin: [filiˈokwe]) is a Latin term added to the original Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (commonly known as the Nicene Creed), and which has been the subject of great controversy between Eastern and Western Christianity. It is not in the original text of the Creed, attributed to the First Council of Constantinople (381), the second ecumenical council, which says that the Holy Spirit proceeds “from the Father”, without additions of any kind, such as “and the Son” or “alone”.[1]
    In the late 6th century, some Latin Churches added the words “and from the Son” (Filioque) to the description of the procession of the Holy Spirit, in what many Eastern Orthodox Christians have at a later stage argued is a violation of Canon VII of the Council of Ephesus, since the words were not included in the text by either the First Council of Nicaea or that of Constantinople.[2] This was incorporated into the liturgical practice of Rome in 1014,[3] but was rejected by Eastern Christianity.
    Whether that term Filioque is included, as well as how it is translated and understood, can have important implications for how one understands the doctrine of the Trinity, which is central to the majority of Christian churches. For some, the term implies a serious underestimation of God the Father’s role in the Trinity; for others, denial of what it expresses implies a serious underestimation of the role of God the Son in the Trinity.
    The term has been an ongoing source of conflict between Eastern Christianity and Western Christianity, contributing, in major part, to the East–West Schism of 1054 and proving to be an obstacle to attempts to reunify the two sides.[4] There have been attempts at resolving the conflict. Among the early attempts at harmonization are the works of Maximus the Confessor, who notably was canonised independently by both Eastern and Western churches. Differences over this doctrine and the question of papal primacy have been and remain primary causes of schism between the Eastern Orthodox and Western churches.[5][6]

  215. Roger

    Funny, isn’t it?

    The Left once decried censorship.

    Now they seek to censor anyone who disagrees with them.

    But we digress…

  216. struth

    One committed suicide and his evidence was not available to this trial.
    One gave his evidence in the trial under the rules of our legal system.
    One gave his evidence in the trial under the rules of our legal system.

    What evidence?

    If we believe that our emotional and unfounded stories are more valid than those of our innocent until proven guilty via evidence not accusation, legal system, then our society has some big problems.

    FIFY.

    It’s immature and highly ignorant to not see though socialism’s hatred of christianity, the politics of the judges and judiciary in general, the way it has been a virtual trial by the ABC and whichhunt by catholic hating senior Vicpol officers, and stand with hand on heart and spout the garbage I FFY, above.

  217. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    You do the maths.

    Perhaps the Catholic church has been two things we should recognize in this sorry story of the widespread abuse of children by those who should care for them: quick and generous in recompense, and a sitting duck.

    It is also very easy to lie with statistics. I’d advise caution.

  218. C.L.

    Can we stop with per-capita vs absolute comparisons of which church or institution had the worst peter-file record.
    These were kids FFS.
    Raped by adults.
    Don’t reduce it to dots on a graph please.

    Monty claims the Catholic Church was proved to be the worst offender at the Royal Commission.
    This isn’t true. The worst offender was the Uniting Church.

    The Catholic Church is around six times as large as the Uniting Church in terms of followers. The Catholic Church’s payouts for abuse cases were around 15 times as large as those by the Uniting Church. You do the maths.

    I don’t have to do any maths. The Methodist and Presbyterian churches no longer exist and the Uniting Church has no significant wealth.

  219. struth

    I get that Lizzie, and historically it’s very rich and goes back to democracy of the Greeks, Blah blah, and is a product of both incrementations and leaps over centuries.

    However, the enlightenment would not and arguably, has not still, happened under Isl a m .

    Chistianity’s founding belief is you are judged after death.
    It gives you a set of rules that are basically virtue rit large, the ten commandments, or do what you like as long as it doesn’t hurt others , and then other humans stacked the rules on top.
    It’s individual responsibility, unlike totalitarian Isla m , and this has created Christian societies of hither to unknown freedoms.
    Only morons like Iampoyda, who display total ignorance of the teachings of the church, can therefore build upon that ignorance to show the total ignorance he has as to what the west is, and how it became that way.

  220. Leigh Lowe

    Statistic are fine but graphs are not.
    Gotcha.

    My introduction to the second comment was “If you like statistics, how about these”

    My problem is that a legitimate discussion about the strength (or otherwise) of the Pell case has degenerated into a distraction unicorn pissing contest about which church or institution was worse than another.
    To have a few surreptitious peter-files within your ranks is not an organizational responsibility.
    It becomes an organisational responsibility when you ignore overwhelming evidence, enable the offending by moving them around and, in one case, ignore warnings from others within the church before they are even ordained.

  221. Bar Beach Swimmer

    So wanting justice, even in the misguided action of painting Pell with the broad brush of the entire church, for the alleged and endless amounts of abuse cases, many alleged perpetrators having escaped justice thanks to the alleged cover up by the church, is “anti-Christian?” Hmm.

    (Endless?) I am not arguing that the guilty should not be found guilty. But you’re using, as the journalists have used, survivors and victims of other crimes to punish the entire church. (btw, pleased to see that you have acknowledged that using Pell to get justice is misguided, that’s a beginning. But, really, no one can receive justice from the conviction of an innocent person and given the evidence in the case, the Pell conviction is more than misguided, it is an example of flagrant injustice.)

    No legal tradition in any Western country is built on the Christian faith precisely because they are based on individual responsibility not collectivism.

    Again, this is a moving away from your original position (perhaps you’re experiencing intellectual growth?) But at least you are now accepting that the foundation of the Western tradition and our legal system of justice stands on the Christian understanding of the individual and their conscience and how, ultimately, they will be judged. So it is I, the individual, who stands before the court for my crimes and, ultimately, I who will stand before the seat of God on the final day to face judgment.

  222. notafan

    many alleged perpetrators having escaped justice thanks to the alleged cover up by the church,

    Please name names

    afaik in Victorian they are all either dead or in gaol

  223. notafan

    Uniting church Australia 243,000 members (2016)
    Catholic church Australia 5,291,839 members (2016)

    243,000 times 6 is 1.458,000

    243,000 times 15 is 3.645,000

    doesn’t work for me

  224. C.L.

    Gerard Henderson has researched this issue thoroughly and explains why it matters:

    The media focus of the Royal Commission’s coverage of Catholics has led to a distortion of the sad universality of a terrible crime.

    While spending 15 days on the Catholic “wrap”, the Royal Commission spent a mere half a day on its Uniting Church “wrap” – hearing only three witnesses in the process. Here’s a quote from Counsel Assisting Angus Stewart SC’s introduction concerning the Uniting Church “wrap”:

    In the 40 years since the Church’s inauguration, there have been 2,504 incidents or allegations of child sexual abuse that have been reported as having occurred at an institution or place of worship of the Uniting Church.

    That’s 2,504 incidents or allegations in the period between 1977, when the Uniting Church was formed, and 2017. This compares with 4,445 claims with respect to the Catholic Church between 1950 and 2015. And the Catholic Church is five times larger than the Uniting Church. Moreover, the Royal Commission did not include allegations in the period 1950 to 1977 with respect to the Presbyterian, Congregational and Methodist communities which folded into the Uniting Church in 1977. This would take the number of allegations beyond 2,504, especially since it seems that child sexual abuse was at its worst in the 1960s and 1970s.

    Evidence presented to the Royal Commission suggests that no real action was taken with respect to a nest of p-file teachers at the Uniting Church’s Knox Grammar School in Sydney until a group of old boys went to NSW Police in 2009 – over a decade after the establishment of the Melbourne Response.

    On the Royal Commission’s own figures, a child was safer in a Catholic institution than a Uniting Church institution any time after 1950. Yet you would not get an idea of this reality by following the reportage of the Royal Commission on the ABC, in Fairfax Media, The Saturday Paper, The Guardian (Australia), 60 Minutes, The Project or Paul Murray Live. Allegations against the Jehovah Witness religion, on a per capita basis, are dramatically higher than for either the Catholic or the Uniting churches.

    This is not a matter of nit-picking. The Royal Commission has used instances of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church to enquire into genuine matters of freedom of religion that pertain to Catholicism … No other institution has been the subject of such scrutiny.

    https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/gerard-henderson-the-media-the-commission-and-the-church/

  225. struth

    No legal tradition in any Western country is built on the Christian faith precisely because they are based on individual responsibility not collectivism.

    Such ignorance.
    I didn’t need to scroll back to see who said it.
    But I did.

  226. dover_beach

    What strikes me about this thread is the deference given to the legal system in the face of what is manifestly available to us with respect to this case.

  227. Bar Beach Swimmer

    From Gerard Henderson’s Media Watchdog Issue 370, 21/7/2017:

    the Royal Commission was set up by Julia Gillard’s government to inquire into the institutional responses to child sexual abuse – not contemporary crimes… evidence before the Royal Commission indicates that such crimes in the Catholic Church peaked in the 1970s – i.e. around four decades ago – and had dropped dramatically by 1990. In other words, they are essentially historical crimes… evidence before the Royal Commission indicates that, on a per-capita basis, child sexual abuse in the period between 1950 and 2015 and was significantly worse in the Uniting Church than the Catholic Church.
    On 16 February 2017, Gail Furness SC – Counsel Assisting the Royal Commission – made the following statement to the Royal Commission with respect to the Catholic Church in Australia:
    Between January 1950 and February 2015, 4,765 people alleged incidents of child sexual abuse in 4,765 claims. The vast majority of claims alleged abuse that started in the period 1950 to 1989 inclusive. The largest proportion of first alleged incidents of child sexual abuse, 29 per cent, occurred in the 1970s.
    Ms Furness’ comments were made during the Royal Commission’s “Catholic Wrap” – which took a total of 15 days.
    On 10 March 2017, Counsel Assisting Angus Stewart SC provided the following comment to the Royal Commission concerning the Uniting Church:
    In the 40 years since the [Uniting] Church’s inauguration, there have been 2,504 incidents or allegations of child sexual abuse that have been reported as having occurred at an institution or place of worship of the Uniting Church.
    That’s 2,504 incidents or allegations in the period between 1977, when the Uniting Church was formed, and 2017. This compares with 4,756 claims with respect to the Catholic Church between 1950 and 2015. And the Catholic Church is five times larger than the Uniting Church. Moreover, the Royal Commission did not include allegations in the period 1950 to 1977 with respect to the Presbyterian, Congregational and Methodist communities which folded into the Uniting Church in 1977. This would take the number of allegations beyond 2,504 – especially since it seems that child sexual abuse was at its worst in Australia in the 1960s and 1970s.
    Mr Stewart’s comments were made during the Royal Commission’s Uniting Church wrap – which took a mere half day… The Uniting Church runs Knox Grammar School in the Sydney suburb of Wahroonga… The Catholic Church commenced taking decisive action with respect to clerical child sexual abuse in the mid-1990s, two decades ago. As revealed in the Royal Commission hearings, no decisive action was taken into child sexual abuse at Knox Grammar until 2009 – after a group of former students reported the matter to NSW Police.

  228. Bar Beach Swimmer

    Cassie of Sydney
    #3137864, posted on August 22, 2019 at 8:37 am

    +1000

  229. notafan

    As I said earlier if the sexual revolution has gone the way monty’s side wanted it do in the 1960s there would be no such thing as child sexual abuse

    it was conservative and Christians that stood in the way

  230. Iampeter

    But you’re using, as the journalists have used, survivors and victims of other crimes to punish the entire church.

    That is exactly what I’m NOT doing. I’m simply pointing out that these victims should not be dismissed, especially if you’re then going to cry about miscarriage of justice.

    btw, pleased to see that you have acknowledged that using Pell to get justice is misguided, that’s a beginning.

    That’s always been my position and I’ve always said I personally wouldn’t have found Pell guilty.
    What I’m saying is that it doesn’t mean there has been any corruption in Pell’s case on the grounds of our disagreement. And that it’s particularly absurd a line to be taking by people dismissing actual corruption.

    But at least you are now accepting that the foundation of the Western tradition and our legal system of justice stands on the Christian understanding of the individual

    Again, this is opposite of what I’ve said. Christianity is a mystical and collectivist ideology, completely at odds with the rational, secular and individualist ideology of the West, which also predates it by hundreds of years.
    Nothing in Christianity is the basis for anything in our legal system.

    Such statements are examples of cargo cultist misintegration of historic events and demonstrates no understnading at a fundamental level of either Christianity or our culture.

  231. Pyrmonter

    @ CL

    Thanks for at least some evidence, but … before you dive into such sectarian whattaboutery, it’s worth also considering (a) the nature of the institutions (residential, boarding etc); and (b) the history of action in response to reports of impropriety. As the facts in PAC v ADC [2016] HCA 37 show, abuse was not something discovered for the first time in 1990: churches and church institutions had dealt with it in the past, sometimes well and sometimes not.

  232. struth

    The side of the baby killers grandstands about Christian behaviour and yet blind to Mus sie and other worse evils.
    Socialist tunnel vision.
    Selective socialist awareness.

  233. struth

    Again, this is opposite of what I’ve said. Christianity is a mystical and collectivist ideology, completely at odds with the rational, secular and individualist ideology of the West, which also predates it by hundreds of years.
    Nothing in Christianity is the basis for anything in our legal system.

    You are a moron.

  234. Mother Lode

    No legal tradition in any Western country is built on the Christian faith precisely because they are based on individual responsibility not collectivism.

    That has to be 1amp.

    He seems to believe that every time people cooperate or form any association they become part of a collective and are therefore left wing.

    This is why he considers himself to be the only right-wing person here: He has no friends and no one wants anything the hell to do with him.

  235. Cassie of Sydney

    “struth
    #3138068, posted on August 22, 2019 at 11:53 am
    You are a moron.”

    Far too generous Struth.

  236. notafan

    2. Gerald Ridsdale’s successor in the parish of Mortlake estimated the number of boys at the parish school aged beteen 10 and 16 molested by Ridsdale to be … 100%.

    is it a fact that Mortlake’s Catholic primary school had students up to the age of 16?

    actually

  237. D.B:

    What strikes me about this thread is the deference given to the legal system in the face of what is manifestly available to us with respect to this case.

    I certainly hope you haven’t included me in the category of deference-givers.

  238. notafan

    The truth is p philes go where they can have access to children, and the problem which is well known peaked in the 60s and 70s

    the institutions themselves are not directly responsible

    Fairhaven residential schools, scouts they all had problems.

    Beneath his highly decorated military facade, Sir William Slim was also an alleged sexual predator. Most recently, he has been accused of sexually molesting child migrants he visited at Fairbridge Farm Schools, throughout his royally-appointed role as Governor-General of Australia. The alleged abuse is said to have taken place in his Rolls Royce while serving as the Queen’s representative during the 1950’s and 1960’s.

    Fairbridge was a private trust afaik but where priests are mentioned as abusers they were Anglican

    The Rolls Royce Sicko: Britain’s ‘Greatest War Hero’ who sexually abused migrant children at Fairbridge Farm Schools in Australia and got away with it…

  239. Infidel Tiger

    The truth is p philes go where they can have access to children, and the problem which is well known peaked in the 60s and 70s

    the institutions themselves are not directly responsible

    Curious the Church’s phile problem disappeared after the crackdown on homos. Very curious.

  240. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    In many ways, the Southwell inquiry, the large number of people who accused Pell of wrongdoing and the County Court convictions encapsulate the challenges facing the cardinal’s defenders.

    When does so much smoke not suggest there is a legal bushfire?

    Umm. When the police are in hot water about deals they made to release details about those protesting the multi-billion desalination plant, that political thought-bubble and still expensive white elephant. Nice little deal you’ve got going there may not just be a recent thought to apply to Vic Pol.

    Quick. Turn attention elsewhere, somewhere we can drum up approval for our activities because it’s easy to entice ‘memories’ from life’s shattered losers about having been abused in times long gone by. Taking the higher moral ground always plays well. It’s a plus that there are always anxious and vulnerable people in need of money, especially when some actually were abused, and there was a lot of anti-Catholic hatred around. Pell could have well have been the fall guy.

    There’s no smoke without fire. Indeed. But what sort of smoke and what sort of fire?
    Vic police haven’t exactly been covered with glory lately either.
    Guess their supporters in high places thought they needed a win.

  241. Leigh Lowe

    many alleged perpetrators having escaped justice thanks to the alleged cover up by the church,

    Please name names

    afaik in Victorian they are all either dead or in gaol

    Well, of course.
    If you want names I can give you two names who fit that category but it might cause a bit of legal kerfuffle for Sinc if I do.
    Yes, the ones we know about ended up in jail eventually.
    A key question is, should they have been detected earlier and prosecuted and turfed out of the clergy?
    Let me introduce you to former priest Paul David Ryan
    From the report:-

    “My investigation showed that Paul David Ryan was sponsored into the seminary by Bishop of Ballarat Ronald Mulkearns, knowing he had a history of being kicked out of the Adelaide seminary,” he (the detective investigating) said.

    “Bishop Mulkearns was advised Paul David Ryan should not be admitted and yet he was sponsored, continued through the seminary and went on to offend against children.”

    Ryan was ordained in 1976.
    He was sent to the US for Ridsdale style de-programming.
    He buggered two altar boys over there whilst on the course.
    Complaints were made against him before he was ordained.
    He has been found guilty of offences between the late ’70’s and early ’90’s.
    He was defrocked in 1993, but investigations were only started in 2003.
    He was convicted of more offences this year arising from the Child Abuse RC.

  242. notafan

    Curious the Church’s phile problem disappeared after the crackdown on homos. Very curious.

    How dare y0u!

  243. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Ah well, it all makes one wonder. Is Bill Shorten still lighting up, or has he given up smoking?

  244. Farmer Gez

    There are plenty of victims of abuse still out there while the media concentrates on the church and Pell.
    My wife recently recalled a friend at university who confided in her that he had been raped at the age of twelve by two senior boys at a non catholic boarding school.

    He told no one and beat himself up over the fact he was chosen for the abuse. My wife assured him that it wouldn’t be just him that they attacked.

    My wife lost direct contact with him after Uni but thirty years later he hasn’t to our knowledge come forward to bring these mongrels to justice. My wife stands ready to testify if he ever wants to seek justice. Her memory is phenomenal. It’s his call.

  245. Leigh Lowe

    is it a fact that Mortlake’s Catholic primary school had students up to the age of 16?

    Mortlake kids are slow and get kept back a lot.
    The evidence given by Ridsdale’s successor covered the school and altar boys.
    Not sure what your point is Notafan.
    That Ridsdale’s Mortlake victims were all aged between 10 and 13, not 10 and 16?
    What hair are we trying to split here?

  246. Bar Beach Swimmer

    Naivety explains some of it, and in a few cases, venality. But how this came to pass is something those (including me) who remain church-goers need to consider carefully.

    Further up the thread I wrote about my experience of the procession of the clergy and attendants at the end of the service and how parishioners either hog attention from the main clergy (bishop/officiating priest) or quickly acknowledge their greeting and then depart the church. In my experience and the experience of close family members, there are always people who are in the “in-crowd” and then everyone else.

  247. mh

    That has to be 1amp.

    He seems to believe that every time people cooperate or form any association they become part of a collective and are therefore left wing.

    This is why he considers himself to be the only right-wing person here: He has no friends and no one wants anything the hell to do with him.

    Ayn Rand is his imaginary friend.

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