Open Forum: November 16, 2019

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4,084 Responses to Open Forum: November 16, 2019

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  1. bespoke

    8th Dan
    #3215022, posted on November 18, 2019 at 4:48 pm

    Both were on free to air TV last week.

    At some point this month it will be hot in some towns and cold in others.

  2. JC

    …but I suspect the bad treatment of whitey and the industrial espionage/knock off issue is also behind it.

    Look, this isn’t to excuse them, but relatively poorer countries all steal intellectual property. Poorer people steal this kind of thing. How many kids these days are paying the vig for music or even movies?

    Also, intellectual property these days has become a crock of shit. You can get a patent for the way you use toilet paper. That’s obviously an exaggeration, but also not too far off the mark.

    Recall how we used to accuse the Japs of copying back in the 80s?

    There are more legitimate arguments to be made against the Chinese than stealing intellectual property. treatment of the minorities is beginning to resemble Nazi concentration camps now. That’s just a start. The Chinese regime is evil.

  3. bespoke

    Like to help Helen but i’m busy with something. 😎

  4. JC

    Also, Bruce. The Germans have big problems with their star industry – carmaking. Mercedes for instance makes crap these days and the other two are not far behind. It’s expense crap.

  5. Geriatric Mayfly

    ABC underpayments bill in the ‘millions’
    The ABC’s payments to up to 2500 casual staff that were underpaid could cost millions of dollars.

    And whatever you do ScoMo do NOT make up the shortfall for the bastards, even though Pepa Pig might get the chop.

  6. Infidel Tiger

    Fair’s fair.
    The Chinese mecantilist model is now even pissing off Germans.

    German firms in China: A quarter are ‘planning to leave’ (12 Nov)

    Too late. The Chinks have already stolen all their IP.

    The Germans gave away all their advantages to an adversary and were too stupid to notice. Europe’s economy is cratering.

  7. bespoke

    8th Dan
    #3215022, posted on November 18, 2019 at 4:48 pm

    Both were on free to air TV last week.

    60 minutes was on last night.

  8. Tintarella di Luna

    I note that comments have been stopped on the Tracy Spicer look-a-#MeToo story by Chris Kenny while they were taking comments early this morning — in any case this is my rejected comment:

    Virtue signalling does not imbue virtue. Ms Spicer jumped on the #MeToo Bandwagon as a sort of last hurrah for someone with a career on the wane. It became Megaphone Malice with no concern whatsoever on the part of Ms Spicer as to the damage that has been done.

    While journalism courses no doubt stress that the privacy of individuals is sacrosanct; unfortunately some journalism graduates are not sufficient intellectually and/or ethically robust to let the lesson sink in.

  9. RobK

    Speaking of giving things away:
    RobK
    #3214604, posted on November 18, 2019 at 12:51 am
    Speaking of pro-tips:

    Human rights watchdog Amnesty International has called for Germany to cease its practice of training Chinese soldiers.

    https://m.dw.com/en/germany-should-stop-aiding-chinese-military-amnesty-warns/a-51283225

  10. johanna

    Helen
    #3215061, posted on November 18, 2019 at 5:36 pm

    Im still on windows 7 joh, defender only kicks in at 8.1

    In that case, I hope others can help, Helen, because I can’t.

    Good luck.

  11. Bruce of Newcastle

    JC – China was pulling these stunts on the miners long before Huawei and all that crap. Rio employee Stern Hu is still in a Chinese gaol, if he’s alive. Best thing Kloppers ever did was screw the Chinese on iron ore contracts, which is why Hu is in gaol and why Rio and BHP pulled all their people out back then.

    The lesson given to China was that the iron ore and coal is in Australia. Not in China. They need cheap iron ore and coal. It would be so so sad if they had to buy expensive far away Brazilian crap. Business is war, and war can go two ways, which is something the Chinks forgot about then. And now Trump is reminding them of the same little lesson.

  12. cohenite

    Young jap women are nuts. I had a Chinese girlfriend a long time ago; she was brilliant at cards.

  13. Overburdened

    https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/hong-kong-protesters-fight-off-police-with-fire-and-arrows/news-story/d0cfd1180904da9afe9453ce99e747fb

    The nihilism of the actors in the protest movement in HK is no better reflected than in their redoubt.

    Not only were they happy to sacrifice an institution that would be part of the forward planning of anyone with a commitment to the continuing improvement to society, they were and or are also actively destroying it.

    Since it’s the PRC that has run out of patience with attempts at engagement from a position of power, they can probably have as much nihilism as they want now.

  14. Mark A

    Helen
    #3215061, posted on November 18, 2019 at 5:36 pm

    Im still on windows 7 joh, defender only kicks in at 8.1

    Melwarebytes (premium) if you want to pay. Nothing beats it for value.
    There is a free version equally effective but fewer features.

    Norton is too complex and overpriced, lost its edge since the DOS years.

  15. Nick

    They blame the US-China spat and increased wages in China, but I suspect the bad treatment of whitey and the industrial espionage/knock off issue is also behind it. Having your executives arrested because Beijing wants a pawn is also an irritation.

    Production started to leave China at least five years ago, owing to cost concerns. Well before Trump.

  16. Shy Ted

    Uh oh, car attack in Bourke St, Melbourne. It’s a car of no description so far.

  17. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Woman who was pack roped by the notorious Skaf gang breaks her silence after 20 years to reveal how she begged them to kill her during an unspeakably horrific attack

    A woman who claims she was roped by the Skaf gang has come forward
    Speaking through tears, Jess said she asked the men to kill her after their attack
    She said she didn’t know how to continue living with the horrors in her head
    Bilal Skaf, the ringleader of the gang, was sentenced to 55 years behind bars
    Judge Michael Finnane, now retired, believes there could be more victims

    Daily Mail

  18. IT:

    We nuked the Japs and they bought heaps of our stuff.
    I see no reason not to nuke China.

    You make a valid point there, IT.

  19. Shy Ted

    And Marise Payne announces Australia’ next Ambassador for the Environment. Didn’t think there was any left. from the press release – Mr Isbister will promote Australia’s interests on international environment issues including our efforts to address climate change as part of a coordinated global effort, cooperation on sustainable oceans management and UNESCO World Heritage. Mr Isbister will also lead Australia’s engagement in the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change.
    Take that, little people.

  20. JC

    Bruce

    We should never take the Americans at face value because they also can’t be trusted. They use intellectual property rights as a form of protection. Intel prop is so fucked up, it’s one of the main reasons they’ve ended up with a plutocracy in the tech sector. A decent part of a CEO’s job at a major tech firm these days is IP, either protecting it or getting into legal disputes to frighten off smaller firms with the scare of massive legal fees. Fuck’em.

  21. JC

    One of the big stock sales features when Amazon came to their IPO in the 90s was their patented one click technology, they called it. Like really, you could end up with a patent for one click vs two. That’s IP law gone to shit.

  22. notafan

    Interesting Zulu.

    More victims.

    How soon is skaf due for parole?

    Those girls….

  23. bespoke

    I’m not sue they are so concerned with the low hanging fruit you are talking abut JC. It’s Stuff like the Westinghouse nuke plans etc

  24. RobK

    JC,
    A decent part of a CEO’s job at a major tech firm these days is IP
    Thanks. I agree. IP is a minefield in many areas, even plant breeding.

  25. zyconoclast

    America’s Wokest Companies, And What They’re Paying Their CEOs

    -Gillette: CEO David S. Taylor a whopping $17,354,256 in 2018.
    -Paypal: CEO, Daniel H. Schulman made $37,764,588 last year.
    -Starbucks: CEO Kevin R. Johnson made $13,382,480 to sort all of it out.
    -Nike: CEO, Mark G. Parker, a hefty $9,467,460.
    -Disney: CEO, Bob Iger to the tune of $65,645,214
    -Target: CEO Brian Cornell $17,204,069 last year.
    -General Motors: CEO Mary T. Barra, who made $21,870,450 in 2018.
    -Google: CEO Sundar Pichai only made $1,881,066 last year, a marked decrease from the $200 million and $100 million he made in stock awards in 2017 and 2016. In a stunning example of self reflection, the search giant’s CEO rejected a stock award last year.
    -The New York Times: Yet, its CEO, Mark Thompson, still managed to pocket $6,132,813 last year.

    I added this to the list
    -QANTAS: Alan Joyce Audtralia’s top-earning CEO pocketed a staggering $23,876,351 last year

  26. bespoke

    8th Dan
    #3215022, posted on November 18, 2019 at 4:48 pm

    Both were on free to air TV last week.

    I have a lounge that comprises of a single and three seater.

  27. cohenite

    zyconoclast
    #3215091, posted on November 18, 2019 at 6:14 pm
    America’s Wokest Companies, And What They’re Paying Their CEOs

    That’s the sickest thing I’ve read on this thread so far.

  28. JC

    Zyco

    If they manage to get the stock up and pay decent divs either in the form of buybacks or straight out divs then they are doing fine, woke or not.

  29. struth

    Let’s tear the bare faced lies apart in this ABC article.
    This naval commander turned politician never wanted to impeach Donald Trump. Until now

    After hearing about the phone call between US President Donald Trump and his Ukrainian counterpart, Elaine Luria felt she no longer had a choice.

    He has made public the transcript which shows the leakers invented their stories.
    They did not expect that, but are hoping the MSM do what this very article is doing.
    Just lying through their teeth.

    Key points:
    •Congresswoman Elaine Luria supports impeachment hearings against Mr Trump
    •She is in a marginal Virginia seat and could lose in 2020
    •Ms Luria said she felt like she had a patriotic duty to act

    The Democratic Congresswoman had resisted her colleagues’ calls to impeach the President for months.

    She feared Robert Mueller’s report into Russian election meddling would be too convoluted for voters to understand and she was not convinced the Commander-in-Chief had committed an offence that warranted early removal from office.

    Typical elitist lefty.
    The proles are too dumb to warrant being told anything, when the reverse is the truth.

    But Mr Trump’s now-infamous conversation with Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky changed everything.

    There was no “infamous” conversation.

    Suddenly the Congresswoman felt she had a patriotic “duty” to act.

    She knows what Joe Biden did.

    “It is clear the President of the United States abused his office,” Ms Luria said.

    “He asked a foreign country to dig up dirt on a political rival for his own personal political gain and used military aid for leverage.”

    The President did not abuse his office unless asking about what amounts to corruption Joe Biden had already been filmed bragging about, admitting to the world, then a POTUS would be corrupt to let it slide.

    To a Democrat, talking about corruption between two Presidents of two countries who have signed a treaty to do just that, is abuse of office when a democrat is the crook who admitted it.

    Ever since he was elected, the impeachment of Mr Trump has seemed a possibility in Washington.

    Assassination is also a possibility when you go against the corrupt , violent left.
    What’s the point of this statement?

    Ms Luria played a small, yet important role, in helping make it now a near certainty.

    In September, the 20-year Navy veteran wrote a Washington Post opinion piece with six other first-term Democrats calling for an inquiry to begin.

    So a party hack…..snore.

    They all had lengthy national security backgrounds, they had all won their districts from a Republican at last year’s midterms, and they are all considered vulnerable at the 2020 election.

    Translation:
    We’ll just say they had lengthy national security backgrounds as if it’s a good thing because we’ve already shut down looking at the recent behaviour of the FBI, CIA and the Justice department.
    And then, stupidly, we’ll point out that because their seat are a close run thing, means they have to go along with Impeachment to keep their Dem lunatic voters happy

    Their support for impeachment seemed something of a tipping point.

    After the opinion piece was published, many other Democrats also spoke out in favour, and Speaker Nancy Pelosi formally launched the investigation a day later.

    Well that is correct.
    It’s only an opinion piece.

    “What Donald Trump has done is so clear cut and such a threat to our national security,” Ms Luria said.

    “He tried to leverage foreign involvement to boost his re-election campaign.”

    Straight out lie.
    Provable lie.

    But now Ms Luria is facing some outraged constituents, Republican-funded attack ads, and the possibility of losing her job after just two years.

    She should be put in jail , not just lose her job.

    Democrats and Republicans draw impeachment battlelines

    The Democrats are trying to keep their impeachment investigation simple

    Facts make it too complicated..

    The case centres around an anonymous CIA whistleblower complaint about a July phone conversation between Mr Trump and Mr Zelensky.

    The Commander-in-Chief used the chat to ask for a “favour”.

    He then urged the newly elected Mr Zelensky to investigate unsubstantiated corruption allegations against former US vice-president Joe Biden and his son Hunter.

    So unsubstantiated Joe has been filmed basically bragging about it.

    The latest written and oral testimony shows American diplomats understood, and were worried, that about $570 million in US military aid was conditional on the politically motivated Biden inquiry being launched.

    No, Biden was going to withhold the money if the investigator was not sacked within six hours.
    Biden’s own words.
    The left are trying to muddy the water here by claiming something so blatantly obvious was actually done by somebody else.
    Typically.

    “I believe that it’s an impeachable offence … it’s a textbook offence,” constitutional law professor Susan Low Bloch said.

    Well actually it isn’t at all, even if he did do it.
    He had a responsibility to do just that.
    Foreign policy is dictated by the president, full stop.
    End of story.

    She testified during Bill Clinton’s impeachment proceedings in 1998, the only woman on a panel of experts to do so.

    Susan Low Bloch stares into the camera with foliage behind her.
    Photo: Law Professor Susan Low Bloch believes Donald Trump committed a textbook, impeachable offence. (ABC News: Niall Lenihan)

    You can find people who believe eating earwax is a good idea too…means nothing.

    “I believe this is an abuse of office. The money was approved by Congress so it’s not up to Trump to say, ‘I won’t give it to you unless you do me a favour and investigate one of my main political opponents.'”

    But impeachment is always a political process and despite the steady drip-feed of damaging information, the outcome of these proceedings already seems to be a foregone conclusion.

    The Democrats, who control the lower house of Congress, are expected to vote by the end of the year to make Donald Trump just the third US President ever impeached.

    Then the case will move to the Senate for a trial as early as January, where the Commander-in-Chief’s Republican colleagues have the numbers.

    Currently, they look set to acquit him of all charges.

    There are no charges.
    They know this.

    They have deliberately avoided having to work out what charge it would be.

    Mr Lewandowski leans on a doorframe as he smiles for the camera.
    Photo: Corey Lewandowski insists Donald Trump’s opponents are speaking out about him unfairly. (ABC News: Niall Lenihan)

    Former Trump campaign manager and current presidential confidant Corey Lewandowski is sure his former boss will make it through the process.

    “This is just another attempt to overturn the 2016 election,” Mr Lewandowski said.

    “I also think this will cost the Democrats at the 2020 election, just like it cost the Republicans after they impeached [former president] Bill Clinton.”

    ‘I can’t believe she’s supporting this type of coup’

    Surveys suggest the nation remains deeply split on the issue of impeachment.

    According to the RealClearPolitics poll average, 48 per cent of Americans want Mr Trump impeached and removed from office, while 45 per cent are opposed.

    Polls like the ones before the election?

    Elaine Luria looks into the crowd while standing on stage.
    Photo: Elaine Luria saw it as her “duty” to act, and is not concerned if her actions ultimately cost her her job. (ABC News: Niall Lenihan)

    Voters break largely along party lines. About 83 per cent of registered Democrats support the current push, compared to just 11 per cent of Republicans.

    With the country so divided and the election less than 12 months away, both parties are already pumping money into justifying and selling their positions on impeachment.

    In Ms Luria’s marginal district, Republican attack advertisements have aimed to link the moderate Congresswoman with the left-wing of the Democratic party.

    YouTube: Advertisements have tried to link Ms Luria with the left-wing of the Democratic Party.

    She has hit back with a campaign ad of her own, trying to fundraise off the inquiry, but concedes a few of her constituents are disappointed with her.

    YouTube: Ms Luria hit back with a campaign trying to fundraise off the inquiry.

    At a town hall meeting which the ABC attended, there was some noticeable tension.

    “This is a Soviet-style type of trial, I can’t believe she’s supporting this type of coup,” Trump supporter Judy Bono declared.

    She repeatedly interrupted and heckled Ms Luria, while the Congresswoman was on stage trying to explain her position.

    “Sixty-three million Americans voted for Donald Trump. They won’t let the man do his job,” Ms Bono added.

    It is still unclear what the overall impact the impeachment investigation, a likely trial and then acquittal, will have on the 2020 election campaign.

    But Ms Luria insists she does not care if it ends for her with electoral defeat.

    “This is not about getting re-elected. This is about doing the right thing,” she said.

    “This is what’s right for our country. I did not serve 20 years in uniform to watch our constitution be trampled on.”

    Yet reading it was not a priority at all.

  30. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    How soon is skaf due for parole?

    From memory, Bilal Skaf drew 55 years, but it was reduced to 28 years.

  31. cohenite

    You’re a woke pinhead head prefect.

  32. Shy Ted

    Over on SBS there’s The Impeachment Show. “Documents the investigation into PDT and alleged co-conspirators in the Ukraine scandal, and follows the process to its historic conclusion”.
    How very prescient. The grammatical errors are all SBS’, me being a grammar Nazi.

  33. Bruce of Newcastle

    We should never take the Americans at face value because they also can’t be trusted. They use intellectual property rights as a form of protection.

    JC – Once I was asked to fly to DC or NYC (forget which) for a 1 hour interview with a patent officer. Nope, phone call not an option. Front up peasant. I said no thank you. Our attorneys found some way out of it and they granted the patent iirc.

  34. Geriatric Mayfly

    Over on SBS there’s The Impeachment Show. “Documents the investigation into PDT and alleged co-conspirators in the Ukraine scandal, and follows the process to its historic conclusion”.

    Have they brought back the Mystic Malaysian Dwarf to read the tea leaves in the co-op caf.?

  35. Trump’s personal security guys must be really good at their job.

  36. Peter, formerly known as Memoryvault

    Production started to leave China at least five years ago, owing to cost concerns. Well before Trump.

    Factcheck = True, Nick.

    Development of China has very much been a mirror of what happened in Japan. Don’t people remember Wile E Coyote’s efforts to catch the Roadrunner using cheap ACME junk out of Japan? Now the Japanese build some of the most sophisticated, technologically advanced cars in the world.

    The difference between Japan then and China now, is that the Japanese didn’t have the domestic market to sustain the necessary growth to prosper. It was a matter of secure export markets or perish.

    The Chinese, on the other hand, have a huge domestic market to capitalise on. If they hadn’t shot themselves in the foot with their one child policy, coupled to the Chinese predilection for sons, they would be sitting pretty now.

    As it is, I don’t know how they are going to dig themselves out of the population hole they have dug for themselves. Neither do my Chinese in-laws.

  37. Bruce of Newcastle:

    I wonder how much damage a 400 kT mysterious nuclear accident off Shanghai port would cause?

    Ask and ye shall receive!
    Off land at the tip of the bulk unloading terminal, with a B61 mod 7, a 340kt weapon?
    Not bloody much.
    And this demonstrates how not very powerful nukes are – It would take 16 B61 mod7 to take out Shanghai to at least 5psi/1 million dead/2 million injured – most of the injured would probably die over the next four days because rescue wouldn’t occur due to damage.
    It would take the Tsar Bomba at its design maximum of 100Mt to flatten the city of Shanghai. (The TB that was dropped over Novaya Zemlya was dialed back to 50Mt.

  38. Max:

    Northern Chinese are different to Southern. Boobs, for a start. Not sure about taller, but could be.

    Pictures or it didn’t happen.

  39. Nick

    The Chinese, on the other hand, have a huge domestic market to capitalise on. If they hadn’t shot themselves in the foot with their one child policy, coupled to the Chinese predilection for sons, they would be sitting pretty now.

    That’s right. That’s part of of the problem. China’s growing and sizeable domestic market should be enough to sustain it.

  40. Bruce in WA

    Speaking of Bruce Pascoe, Boffin Books has this hagiography on its website:

    Salt — Selected Stories and Essays
    by Bruce Pascoe

    A collection of stories and essays by the award-winning author of Dark Emu, showcasing his shimmering genius across a lifetime of work.

    This volume of Bruce Pascoe’s best and most celebrated stories and essays, collected here for the first time, traverses his long career and explores his enduring fascination with Australia’s landscape, culture and history.

    Featuring new fiction alongside Pascoe’s most revered and thought-provoking nonfiction – including from his modern classic Dark Emu – Salt distils the intellect, passion and virtuosity of his work. It’s time all Australians know the range and depth of this most marvellous of our writers.

    And for Young Dark Emu, it proudly tells us:

    Young Dark Emu A Truer History
    by Bruce Pascoe

    The highly-anticipated junior version of Bruce Pascoe’s multi award-winning book.

    Bruce Pascoe has collected a swathe of literary awards for Dark Emu and now he has brought together the research and compelling first person accounts in a book for younger readers.

    Using the accounts of early European explorers, colonists and farmers, Bruce Pascoe compellingly argues for a reconsideration of the hunter-gatherer label for pre-colonial Aboriginal Australians. He allows the reader to see Australia as it was before Europeans arrived – a land of cultivated farming areas, productive fisheries, permanent homes, and an understanding of the environment and its natural resources that supported thriving villages across the continent. Young Dark Emu – A Truer History asks young readers to consider a different version of Australia’s history pre-European colonisation.

  41. RobK

    Struth, I agree.
    Lucky pixels are in good supply.

  42. Boambee John:

    I wonder are the Chinese smart enough to realise that regardless of 70 years of communist rule, it would be wise to station troops well away from their home province.

    That’s a routine part of socialist military thinking, BJ. Tienanmen Square had the local troops taken out and replaced with troops who spoke a different dialect and generally came from peasant families.
    Apparently they had difficulty speaking with the local students and couldn’t understand their aims.

  43. Shy Ted

    6.07pm and The Dumb panel has already decided China is far better than Oz, there’s nothing to fear, communism is best and the Libs have handled it all wrong. Luminaries include Bob Carr (wearing a red tie displaying his loyalty) and Peter Hartcher with multiple quotes from China employee Paul Keating.
    6.15pm and Peter H says there’s more to the Aldi bag scandal. Can’t believe my ears. Bob replies, “there are 130,000 Chinese students (spies) in Oz universities and there have only been 3 incidents (129,997 just haven’t been caught yet). Peter arguing the toss with Bob. Never seen an episode like it.

  44. Bruce of Newcastle

    It would take 16 B61 mod7 to take out Shanghai

    Winston – The Russian tsunami drone is reputed to cause a wave up to 500m high.
    I suspect a close-in seafloor detonated 400 kT device would cause a pretty big wave too.
    A Chinese aircraft carrier stuck in skyscraper would be a fun sight.

  45. zyconoclast

    Abolishing whiteness has never been more urgent

    Noel Ignatiev never set out to be a hero. His goal was quite the opposite: to be a “traitor” to a race that for much of his life would not accept him and whose inherent toxicity, he believed, would permanently impede the possibility of the United States living up to its ideals.

    On November 9, the historian died, leaving behind a body of work explaining why and how Americans ought to abolish “whiteness”. As the country faces a surge in white supremacist violence and rhetoric, there may be no better time to engage with – and embrace – his ideas.

  46. Overburdened

    Speaking of being woke, I had lunch today with the son and the ex before he leaves again tomorrow.

    He’s faster than a speeding bullet.

    Anyhow we all love each other n stuff so fab.

    Then I commented during the conversation that I would like 2 big arsed black chicks who could shout their heads off to supplement my current vision of putting an ensemble together, practice a bit then do a show just for jolly at a market or something.

    I was immediately shut down by a coordinated team effort and scolded for being a racist, sexist, fat shaming unwoke person.

    I suggested that I was describing rather than defining, and we established that big arsed black chicks are allowed to describe themselves that way and I can’t.

    The disease is virulent even in otherwise competent and capable people.

  47. Bruce of Newcastle

    Abolishing whiteness has never been more urgent

    Says Al Jazeera.

  48. zyconoclast

    JC
    #3215098, posted on November 18, 2019 at 6:18 pm
    Zyco

    If they manage to get the stock up and pay decent divs either in the form of buybacks or straight out divs then they are doing fine, woke or not.

    As always, it is for the shareholders to decide.

  49. Mark A:

    Norton is too complex and overpriced, lost its edge since the DOS years.

    I refuse to use Norton due to its complicity in the Apple? malware issue of a decade or so ago.
    It seems that Apple? put a monitoring bug into the windows software that put a horrendous load on the system, slowing them down by very large percentages.
    Norton and another company refused to allow their antibug software to remove it, or even acknowledge it existed.
    I think there were some billion dollar fines levied on the whole lot of them when it came out.
    (My memory isn’t that good on the issue, so there may be several factual errors)

  50. Frank

    zyconoclast; came across this one in the newsfeed this morning.

    How Noel Ignatiev Became Dead
    Jim Goad

    I always knew that lifelong communist and serial race-denier Noel Ignatiev, who campaigned for decades that society needed to “abolish the white race,” was full of it. Allow me to take a sadistic level of pleasure in the fact that a bowel obstruction is literally what killed him last week.

    Author is a bit of a bomb thrower though, he writes the week in review section.

  51. Rex Mango

    Just heard on ABC RN the latest buzzword/s; structural racism. The enquiry into the death of Tanya Day, I think, is looking at claiming structural racism was the culprit.

  52. Bruce in WA

    Australian War Memorial boss Brendan Nelson says $500m expansion will help prevent soldier PTSD

  53. MatrixTransform

    Im still on windows 7 joh, defender only kicks in at 8.1

    Have a look at WebRoot … my company uses it everywhere.
    phones, tablets, the office computers, cloud computers, site computers.
    It monitors everything and follows rouge executables around with a gun. when they misbehave it shoots em and then rolls back any changes the nasty software made

    it doesnt nag and doesnt require constant attention

    My home license covers like 5 computers and all the phones as well

  54. Overburdened

    There is nothing worse than not being black enough.

    It was the same when I was growing up due to the environment, and is the same now due to other incentives that weren’t around when I was young.

  55. 8th Dan

    Joker. Excellent movie. Brilliant performance by Joaquin Phoenix … maybe Oscar winning.

  56. Overburdened

    BoN

    The more hardy Japanese will tell him to fuck off.

  57. notafan

    Good on the pope for denouncing the increase in anti s ism in Europe.

    We all know the source of that.

  58. notafan

    Pope Francis doesn’t live in an ‘opulent palace’

  59. dover_beach

    Anyone here know anything about this:

    Colonial Frontier Massacres researchers add dozens of sites to map of Aboriginal killings: Researchers behind the Colonial Frontier Massacres project, documenting the slaying of at least 8,400 mainly Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people by colonists between 1788 and 1930, have added 53 new sites to its map.

    The ABC-Guardian nexus are lapping it up.

  60. Helen

    Thanks Mark, I forgat I had Malwarebytes, have reactivated premium. 29 pups. Now just looking about for a lightweight (not resource heavy ) antivirus.

  61. miltonf

    The more that I look at the state of modern Britain and the conduct of the royal family, I conclude that the Americans got it hugely right in 1776.

  62. Helen

    Thanks Matix, I will have a look at webroot.

  63. zyconoclast

    POSTER GIRL FOR TERROR [email protected] jailed for 10 years for helping 21/7 Tube bombers given top council job after bosses failed to uncover her criminal past

    Mulumebet Girma rose through housing department ranks after London’s Southwark Council failed to uncover her criminal past, despite her being in one of the UK’s highest-profile terror trials.

    The Ethiopian ex-model was even put on the cover of a council magazine to promote its apprenticeship scheme. Girma, 33, has now been sacked.

    Girma got a job with Southwark Council as a trainee customer services assistant in 2013 — shortly after she was released early from a 10-year jail term.

    She did not declare her criminal past and the council failed to uncover it despite her having a key role in one of Britain’s highest profile terror trials.

    A simple Google search would have revealed ex-model Girma had been convicted under the Terrorism Act for assisting her brother-in-law Hussein Osman, who tried to blow up a packed commuter train on 21 July 2005.

    There is even a Wikipedia page detailing her involvement, after Osman failed to blow up a train in Shepherd’s Bush when his rucksack bomb only partially exploded.

    He was taken by Girma’s sister and brother to her home in Brighton, where the student and model tended burns to his legs.

    Girma hid Osman – the father of her three nieces and nephews – in her home, and lied to the police about his whereabouts.

    She then helped him to a safe house, and he later escaped to London and then Rome.

    In June 2008 Girma and her siblings were found guilty of assisting an offender and failing to disclose information on the plot.

    She and her brother Esayas were both jailed for ten years, while her sister Yeshi – Osman’s wife – was handed a 15-year-sentence.

    Judge Paul Worsley told the siblings the sentences he was able to pass by law were “woefully inadequate to reflect the enormity” of the case.

    He said the sisters had told the court a “tissue of lies”.

    He added: “In my judgment it is almost impossible to imagine more serious offending.

    “I have no doubt that each of you were prepared to aid a ruthless fanatic and that you must have harboured hope that the bombers would have been successful in their mission to seek to damage our society where people can still go about their daily business fairly and with confidence.

    “This court will reflect society’s condemnation of what you did by imposing sentences which punish, deter others, and ensure the public are protected.”

    Upon her release, Girma rose through the ranks to become a systems and performance analyst in the housing team.

    She appeared on the cover of a council magazine to show off the success of its apprenticeship scheme.

    A source said: “How did she manage to get this job without any checks? All it would take was a Google of her name to see her past.

    “The database she had control over contains clients who are deemed ‘vulnerable.’ This is for a whole range of reasons — but one is them being on a watch list, or worries they could be at risk of links to terrorism…”

    Southwark Tory councillor Michael Mitchell said: “This is a truly shocking blunder. Allowing someone with that background to work with potentially vulnerable clients is an entirely avoidable risk. It’s a huge error.”

    She was one of 40 apprentices in 2013 and eventually got a permanent job at the council’s Peckham office.

    Southwark Council yesterday said Girma had been sacked and an investigation launched — but denied she had direct access to watch list data.

    Chief executive Eleanor Kelly said: “As soon as her background came to light we terminated her employment. She did not disclose her full offence.

    “During her employment this individual never had access to police watch list data.

    drive cab
    “We have fully reviewed her activity while she was employed at the council, including her computer usage, and no wrongdoing was uncovered.”

    The July 21 bombers attempted to blow up Tube trains and a bus two weeks after terrorists killed 52 passengers in the July 7 attacks.

    A huge death toll was averted because the four bombers failed to mix their devices’ chemicals properly.

  64. notafan

    He lives in the guest house, always had.

    Didn’t fitzsiimusn like to bang on about Cardinal Pell’s luxury accommodation?

  65. jupes

    Anyone here know anything about this:

    All I know is that the most outrageous claims will be accepted as fact even if proved false.

    We live in an age of propaganda that would impress Goebbels.

    #stolen generations

  66. Helen

    Well, bangers and mash for tea, with brown onion gravy. A nice red to start the creating. catch ya later

  67. Bruce of Newcastle

    Didn’t fitzsiimusn like to bang on about Cardinal Pell’s luxury accommodation?

    I hope not.

    It’s not just jail for George Pell, this is torture (Oz today, paywalled)
    By MIRKO BAGARIC

    The Cardinal’s case casts a light on the barbaric nature of solitary confinement.

    I don’t know whether they allowed him a Bible. If they did I suspect George will be happy re-acquainting himself with an old friend. I would be. Many many monks in their cells studied the Word for years, something I’m sure he’s warmly encouraged by.

  68. Rex Mango

    Dover, so very gothic claims in that article. This quote a doozy:

    ‘Those not killed were often enslaved.’

    Also liked the estimate of dead between 6 and 200, claims of killing children and women first and setting fire to bodies by wasting kerosene in the middle of nowhere in 1888.

  69. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    The disease is virulent even in otherwise competent and capable people.

    fatal when it takes root in a civilisation.

  70. RobK

    https://www.chinadialogue.net/article/show/single/en/11642-Is-coal-power-winning-the-US-China-trade-war-

    China has signalled that coal power will be a top priority within national energy policy as the government prepares its next Five Year Plan (2021-25).

    On 11 October, Premier Li Keqiang chaired a meeting of the National Energy Commission in Beijing that emphasised China’s energy security and coal utilisation and downplayed the importance of a rapid transition away from fossil fuels.

    Each meeting of the commission, which was established in 2010 and has met only four times, has had a significant impact on policymaking. Chaired by Premier Li and attended by more than 20 chiefs of China’s ministries and bureaus, the commission is the top body for coordinating energy policy.

    We for go our gifts.

  71. Rex Mango

    Would imagine right now to be a golden age if one was writing a PHD on the ‘frontier wars’, or massacres etc. Some regular contributors here should take note

  72. Boambee John

    If they hadn’t shot themselves in the foot with their one child policy, coupled to the Chinese predilection for sons, they would be sitting pretty now.

    And this is why the Chinese leadership need to avoid mass military casualties in any conflict in the near future. The parents of all those “little emperors” will be most unhappy if their only child dies in battle, particularly if there is no grandchild.

  73. 1735099

    Hazmatic
    #3214452, posted on November 17, 2019 at 9:38 pm
    Mater again is on the money.

    What “money” is that?
    The Anonymous Name-Dropper (henceforth referred to as AN-D to save space and pander to the ex-military lovers of TLAs) hasn’t posted anything in this cascade of text that supports Mater’s assertion that the fact that we “lost” is responsible for the less than positive view of the conflict, and that conscription had nothing to do with it.

    We didn’t “lose” by the way.

    Nor does it shed any light on the motivations of Nashos at the time, because unstructured interviews of thirty random veterans nearly fifty years after the event, is a very poor method of establishing fact.
    It is in fact “raw” data – so raw that it resembles freshly slaughtered game. It needs analysis to be safely digestible.

    There is also the problem of bias associated with self-selection, as I’m assuming (correct me if I’m wrong) that those interviewed volunteered for the process. An examination of the postings and ranks of the group interviewed also suggests that they were far from a representative sample, but more of that later.
    The nature of the questions, the quality of the reporting of the responses, and the lack of consistency in those responses also jeopardises the usefulness of the material, but hey, it’s posted, so let’s attempt some analysis.

    There are some themes that can be identified. One is that the experiences varied widely. Soldiers describe random allocations to units headed for Vietnam based on manpower requirements –

    And I said to my officer in my unit, “How do I get out of here?” And he said, “Quite simple. What don’t you like?” and I said, “I just don’t like that type of work and the intensity and the prospects of going to Vietnam with an armoured regiment and things like that.” So he said, “It’s quite simple. I’ll put you on a jungle training course and you can go over with whoever as a replacement for whoever vacancy comes up.” So straight away I was posted off on the jungle-training course. And very shortly after I completed that I received notification that a vacancy had come up in Vietnam.
    Archive no: 2022

    And –

    They gave us a couple of booklets on different things about the army and whatever, not a hell of a lot but they would have they must have told us something, but you did have a choice but you know that not many people achieved what they put in for. Some did. Some got engineers and artillery but the aim was to build up the infantry numbers.
    Archive no: 1905

    And –

    The particular group that I was with, who had been inducted as ninth intake national servicemen, we were due to get out in June, the end of June ’69, and the unit we were with wasn’t due to go to Vietnam until March ’69. So we were told we wouldn’t be going because there wasn’t sufficient time. It wasn’t worth taking us up there for three months. So we were, it was quite funny. They used to have parades and they’d say, “Right. Everyone who’s going to Vietnam stand over there. Everyone who’s not going stand over there.” and we used to stay in the middle and, “What are you doing?” We said, “Well we don’t know if we’re going or not.” and so some days they’d say, “Well pretend you are.” Then other days they’d say, “Well pretend you’re not.” So that’s where we were. However, as I say, being national servicemen they could sort of pick us up and use us to plug holes. On the, I think it was about, I don’t know, late September, we were told that we definitely weren’t going and two weeks later I was there. So that was fairly typical of the army. They used, they picked me up and I plugged a hole. There was a national serviceman whose time was up in a unit in Vietnam. He came home. I took his place and I served out the balance of his unit’s time with that unit.
    Archive no: 1154

    Some veterans are quite explicit in saying they volunteered –

    “I volunteered for Vietnam”
    Archive no:1201

    And –

    “No, what actually happened, and not many people know this, but I have got to be honest with you and say that I actually volunteered for service.
    Archive no: 889

    And others say they didn’t –

    Well you’re going to Vietnam.” I said, “Hey, hang on. I didn’t volunteer for this, this is not part of the deal, it’s not my script.” You know, you’ve got the wrong person sort of thing. He said, “No, you’re going to Vietnam. You’ve got – you can go home for this weekend, see your folks and report back here on Monday or whatever and then you’re going off to Vietnam.” So he said, “Roll up your sleeves.” And I said, “Well do I – can I object to this.” And he said, “Well, you can object but I mean, who’s going to listen.” So I said, “Well, don’t I have to volunteer?” And he said, “No.” So that was it.”
    Archive no: 1669

    And –

    Did you have to sign any kind of agreement that you were happy to go to Vietnam or anything like that?
    I don’t recall it. I don’t recall that at all. Maybe I did. Of course the worst thing about it was we knew we were going to Vietnam and so we came back from leave and we were sent to Sydney and we were up at Watson’s Bay on the [south] head of the harbour up there and we thought that we’d be going straight away but we were up there for three weeks or something.
    Archive no: 1994

    Some of those interviewed referred to “others” who opted out. This kind of response is a very common phenomenon when there is an emotional component embedded in the question. The subject wants to be seen in the best light, so rationalises his/her response along those lines. Carefully structured interviews can avoid this, but there is no evidence of structure in any of the questions posted. The aphorism “The older I get, the better I used to be” holds true. Remember, old men were interviewed about how they behaved as young men nearly fifty years ago. Answers to that kind of questioning are hardly objective truth. The significant factor is that it is always a shameful “someone else” not interviewed who opted out –

    And you actually wanted to be there. I’m assuming that not all of the guys in your platoon necessarily wanted to be there?
    No, not all of them wanted to be there. But, as I said, they accepted the fact that they were there, they had to do their training. They didn’t put themselves in the conscientious objector file and say, “You can stick it. Throw me in jail.” They just said that they didn’t want to serve overseas. They were prepared to do their two years but they didn’t want to go overseas. And when it came to corps allocations they were allocated to corps and jobs that would never see them get posted overseas.
    And that’s when I said, “I’m sick and tired of these deferrals.” So I went and volunteered as a national serviceman.
    Archive no: 1993

    And –

    Doug, the fellow I just spoke of, he played up a little bit and they transferred him from 1 Battalion in Holsworthy to Townsville, and three weeks before we were due to leave for Vietnam, there’s Doug standing there with all his bags. So all they did was just put him aside to keep him quite until things were ready and that was it, away he went. When the government has a war and you’re invited, they become very terse at you not turning up. That’s the easiest way of explaining it.
    Archive no:1886

    My quest is to search for the answers to a number of basic questions such as – how many national servicemen volunteered to enlist, and of those, how many deliberately chose a unit warned for operational service; how many national servicemen who did not volunteer to enlist but once through recruit and corps training made a deliberate choice to be posted to Vietnam; how many national servicemen (and regular soldiers for that matter) had a change of heart once they arrived in country; and across all of this, what were the motivations and how can they be classified.
    This set of responses doesn’t provide complete answers to any of these questions, but it is useful raw data. The question that sparked this whole quest for me has already been conclusively answered. That question refers to the debunking of the myth that every national serviceman who went to Vietnam was a volunteer. There are many other unanswered questions.
    A brief analysis of those interviewed using the nominal roll is interesting. Whilst I understand that those interviewed were most likely a random cross-section, this group of 30 is somewhat atypical. It consists of 12 from Infantry, 4 from Artillery, 3 from armoured Corps, 3 from Medical Corps, 2 from RAEME, 1 from Education Corps, 1 from Dental Corps, 2 Signallers, 3 Engineers and 1 SAS Trooper. Three are decorated.

    That adds to more than 30, because one name appears three times on the nominal roll, and one does not appear at all. I have included the three soldiers with the same name in the totals, although obviously only one of them was the veteran interviewed. 7 have non-commissioned rank (6 temporary) and one has a commission. Given three infantry battalions were in country for most of the deployment, and each battalion comprises about 1000 men, I would have expected a higher proportion of infantry in the sample of 30, if it is to be considered representative of all national servicemen.

    A more useful process would have been to introduce a few controls into the group sample. You will note that I avoid posting names. Doing so is completely unnecessary for the purpose of the exercise. These men have a right to privacy, a right completely ignored by the AN-D. It’s indicative of his general lack of respect of veterans, as is his malice directed against me, expressed in adolescent name calling, because I have the temerity to disagree with him.

    Another issue is the level of competence of those asking the questions and transcribing the answers. The questions are haphazard, and the transcription has basic errors. “Quite” is substituted for “quiet” and “principal” for “principle”. These are minor issues, but indicate a slipshod approach.

    AN-D, who persists in smearing my academic reputation has no absolutely problem in publishing second rate material. On this blog, if you kowtow to the prevailing orthodoxy, all is forgiven.

  74. Roger

    Anyone here know anything about this:

    Colonial Frontier Massacres researchers add dozens of sites to map of Aboriginal killings

    The History Wars, Round 2.

  75. Roger

    China has signalled that coal power will be a top priority within national energy policy as the government prepares its next Five Year Plan (2021-25).

    XR protesters gluing themselves to the Chinese embassy driveway in 3,2,1…

  76. Old School Conservative

    Girma got a job with Southwark Council as a trainee customer services assistant in 2013 — shortly after she was released early from a 10-year jail term.

    That’s no blunder – that’s a premeditated action. So was her rise up the council ladder.

  77. Bruce of Newcastle

    Sorry Roger. Although I suspect it may work for that story too. Nein had it and I flicked channel in microseconds, so I don’t know the details.

  78. Mater

    Mater’s assertion that the fact that we “lost” is responsible for the less than positive view of the conflict, and that conscription had nothing to do with it.

    Please don’t misrepresent me and say I indicated that conscription “had nothing to do with it”.

    Mater
    #3213840, posted on November 17, 2019 at 9:07 am

    If you are going to be objective in you study of the after effects on soldiers, that we lost must be entered into the equation (along side conscription).

    Keep it honest!

  79. Mater

    We didn’t “lose” by the way.

    Can you point to South Vietnam on a map?

  80. RobK

    Sudden surge in demand for pixels.

  81. 8th Dan

    I’m not sue

    So you say. The question is … can you prove you are a boy named sue?

  82. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Anyone here know anything about this:

    Colonial Frontier Massacres researchers add dozens of sites to map of Aboriginal killings

    The History Wars, Round 2.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-18/dozens-of-massacre-sites-added-to-map-of-aboriginal-killings/11707916

  83. 1735099

    Can you point to South Vietnam on a map?

    Australian troops had been withdrawn three years before the conflict ended and had successfully secured the province when they left.

  84. Frank

    The History Wars, Round 2.

    Guess that means the revisionist historians are about to get their histories revised by the next generation of historians. Good times and grant potential abounds.

  85. Overburdened

    TRIGGER WARNING!!! South Vietnam!

    Stand by for a fresh raft of shit.

  86. Overburdened

    ….. or from me.

    ….maybe #me too

  87. Gab

    Viet Cong Charlie is back. Like clockwork.

  88. Overburdened

    Let’s try

    …..not from me.

    ….maybe #me too.

    Fn thought I was on a winner there

  89. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Guess that means the revisionist historians are about to get their histories revised by the next generation of historians. Good times and grant potential abounds.

    It’s an inconvenient truth that some of those “massacres’ were fully investigated at the time, and found to be nothing more then “stories my Nanna told me.” Cite you “Mistake Creek” which “eyewitnesses” describe as having been led by a man, who had actually been dead for two years at the time.

  90. Muddy

    From Zulu’s link above:
    After the 1916 Mowla Bluff massacre, where between 6 and 200 Aboriginal people were killed by police, an Aboriginal eyewitness described the chilling way officers disposed of the bodies.
    [My bolding].

    We can expect ‘genetic memory’ to provide all the evidence required to substantiate whatever can be imagined.

  91. Mater

    Australian troops had been withdrawn three years before the conflict ended and had successfully secured the province when they left.

    You are being selective.
    Everything our blokes fought and sacrificed for, got taken by the enemy and was lost.
    Please don’t delude yourself into thinking that that doesn’t have a detrimental effect on soldiers and their enduring attitudes towards the experience.
    Such an outcome, and the ensuing bitterness, contributed to fermenting WW2.

  92. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Vegan activists Aussie Farms Inc lose charity status in protest fallout
    Animal activist group Aussie Farms came under fire early this year for releasing the details of farmers across Australia.

    By Kieran Gair
    An hour ago November 18, 2019
    7 Comments

    Controversial animal activist group Aussie Farms Inc has been stripped of its charity status after a lengthy and secretive investigation into its operations by the Australian Charities and Not-for-profits Commission.

    The group came under sustained attacks from the federal government after it published an interactive map in January that shared location and personal contact details of thousands of Australian farmers.

    The group sparked outrage among farming organisations and propelled the little-known outfit into the national spotlight after Prime Minister Scott Morrison branded the activists as “grubs” and pledged to strengthen trespass laws.

    ACNC Commissioner Dr Gary Johns said the removal of an organisation’s charity status was reserved for “the most serious of cases.”

    “By revoking the charity registration of Aussie Farms Inc, the organisation is no longer able to access Commonwealth charity tax concessions,” Dr Johns said in a statement.

    “Revocation of charity status is the most serious action the ACNC can take.”

    The group’s now-infamous website encouraged activists to upload photos and videos taken inside farms and slaughterhouses of examples of what they deemed to be animal cruelty.

    Their tactics ignited a fierce debate about the limits of protest when nine activists were charged with trespass after they dramatically chained themselves to a conveyor at a Goulburn abattoir in NSW in April of this year.

    On the same day, more than 20 vegan activists stormed Carey Bros Abattoir in Yangan, southeast of Toowoomba, while Melbourne CBD was thrown into chaos after activists chained themselves to vans at the intersection of Flinders and Swanston Streets.

    From the Oz. Hoo – bloody- ray.

  93. Rex Mango

    Been writing some more Invent Nam War Poetry:

    Rat Tat Tat, Boom Boom Boom
    Screech of arty overhead
    Holed up in the jungle
    Black clad commies all dead
    This was a first class bungle
    Till I called in fire mission making carnage widespread
    No medal for me, work to be done
    Wiped away sweat from brow and changed the reel on projector for next movie ahead

  94. Muddy

    Apologies: apparently that was Dover Beach who originally provided the link. (Bit slow in scrolling up).

  95. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Apologies: apparently that was Dover Beach who originally provided the link. (Bit slow in scrolling up).

    So was I, Muddy – thank you Dover Beach.

  96. kaysee

    Helen
    #3215061, posted on November 18, 2019 at 5:36 pm

    Im still on windows 7 joh

    Helen, I am on Windows 7 and have been using the AVG AntiVirus Free for years.
    I also run the Malwarebytes Free as a backup check every few weeks. It has worked well for me.
     
    Are you going to continue with Windows 7? It comes to the end of its life on 14 January 2020. Which means no security updates after that date.
     
    I am in the process of looking at the Windows 10 upgrade. There are several suggestions to upgrade to 10 because it is a better system. However, I am also hearing stories of crashes and bugs. I am happy with Win 7 – it’s perfect for my needs and serves me well. But using the internet without the security updates is too risky.
     
    Are there others in a similar situation? Currently with Win 7 and wondering what to do?

  97. Muddy

    I’m sticking to my belief that deep shame underlies part of the motivation for the black armband view of history, and the need to exaggerate the largely local, intermittent, and uncoordinated conflict that did take place between Europeans and some of the indigenous inhabitants.

  98. Pickles

    Old trannie on Sky. We’re doomed.

  99. max

    The parents of all those “little emperors” will be most unhappy if their only child dies in battle, particularly if there is no grandchild.

    Kidnapping young kids for ransom is a business in some parts of China. Snatching them off the street is not hard as passers by refuse to get involved and develop bystander’s blindness. What a culture.

  100. Pickles

    We need another Peter Roebuck. But not as flat. So we ended up with a trannie.

  101. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    I’m sticking to my belief that deep shame underlies part of the motivation for the black armband view of history, and the need to exaggerate the largely local, intermittent, and uncoordinated conflict that did take place between Europeans and some of the indigenous inhabitants.

    I’m remembering a “full and frank exchange of views” between you and “testpattern” on this blog. The “deep shame” comes from the fact that few, if any races, were conquered so utterly as the Aborigines, that their “resistance” consisted of spearing and clubbing to death a few white settlers and their families, and that few, if any, races merged so completely with their conquerors.

  102. Roger

    I’m sticking to my belief that deep shame underlies part of the motivation for the black armband view of history…

    Could you please eleaborate, Muddy?

    Shame concerning what?

    From my perspective it’s a concerted exaggeration of historical events in the interest of cultural subversion.

    Every nation has its creation narrative, if you will, more or less based on historical events (harder to mythologise as you come into the post-Enlightenment period). Undermine that narrative and you re-frame the way a people regard themselves and their origins, which is precisely the intent in this instance, imv.

  103. Boambee John

    Muddy

    I suspect that part of the “deep shame” comes from pushing stories that can only have credibility if aborigines stood around waiting their turn to die.

    For much of the period, the principal weapons available to the colonists were single shot muzzle loading pistols and muskets. Perhaps Top Ender or another with knowledge can confirm, but my recollection is that these weapons had limited accuracy beyond around 50 metres, and were slow to reload. A fit (proud?) aboriginal warrior could have crossed that distance while the colonist was reloading and stuck a spear in him. This does not seem to have happened much.

    Perhaps the “proud” indigenous men were in a hurry to leave the scene? But then, how could the alleged large numbers have been killed?

  104. Bruce of Newcastle

    The black armband thing gets right up my nose. My family, descended from a slave lady who had 8 kids to the plantation owner, never whined like this. They did stuff.

  105. Muddy

    Roger and Boambee John.

    Zulu pretty much nailed it in his response to mine, above. The shame comes from a dissonance between the ‘warrior’ identity and the reality that Europeans simply hobbled in on crutches.

    I don’t think that the shame motivation is universally shared, but it must be present to a degree.

  106. mh

    War poetry for Bob?

    Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom,
    Boom, Boom, Boom,
    Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom,
    Boom, Boom, Boom

  107. Muddy

    I’ve stated previously, that as a curious person and a history nerd, I’m keen to learn about other cultures. However I’m not at all happy that it is seen as necessary to denigrate my ancestors in order to elevate others.

  108. MatrixTransform

    fuck off Numpty, nobody gives a shit

  109. Knuckle Dragger

    ‘These are minor issues, but indicate a slipshod approach.’

    Are you imputing people again?

  110. Rex Mango

    Interesting that current historians are doing their best to demythologise the Anzac story, at the same time as others push the indig warrior identity thing.

  111. Roger

    I don’t think that the shame motivation is universally shared, but it must be present to a degree.

    OK, got it, thanks, Muddy.

    I’ve never heard such shame expressed by any indigenous bloke who wasn’t tutored to do so by white Leftists.

    The shame originates with the latter in regard to their own culture.

  112. Muddy

    Oops. Still scrolling up. My apologies to Rex for stating exactly what he did some time afterwards.

  113. Leigh Lowe

    Pickles

    #3215184, posted on November 18, 2019 at 8:21 pm

    Old trannie on Sky. We’re doomed.

    Alan Jones?
    Tony Windsor?
    Chrissy Pahn?

  114. Muddy

    Roger,
    I’m not sure that any indigenous person would express or perhaps even be aware of, such a sense of shame. I think ‘guilt’ probably describes what is pretended to be felt by left extremists. It’s a rough theory, I know, but shame can underlie and be masked by, other behaviours. Those who see a financial benefit to be gained are a different story.

  115. Boambee John

    mh
    #3215197, posted on November 18, 2019 at 8:43 pm
    War poetry for Bob?

    Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom,
    Boom, Boom, Boom,
    Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom,
    Boom, Boom, Boom

    The original Baldrick will be after you for breach of copyright.

    Speaking of which, does anyone know what happened to our Baldrick?

    On the subject of absent friends, it was good to hear from you Delta A.

  116. Muddy

    Baldrick – I asked the same question a number of weeks ago, and was told (by whom, I cannot recall), that Baldrick is apparently active online somewhere else. Twatter? Faceache? Slapback? Memory will not help me with this one.

  117. Rex Mango

    Ruecassel (chaser guy) just announced with straight face on Australia Talks that 84% of Australians think climate change is real and something should be done, they then moved onto shots of bushfires. Go into any pub, mention climate change and you will get laughed at.

  118. Top Ender

    Boambee John…For much of the period, the principal weapons available to the colonists were single shot muzzle loading pistols and muskets. Perhaps Top Ender or another with knowledge can confirm, but my recollection is that these weapons had limited accuracy beyond around 50 metres, and were slow to reload.

    Indeed yes, but it’s a bit more complex than that.

    If you had a landing party and saw some spear-wielding chaps on the distance, you’d presume, if commanding, that they intended no good, so you would tell off your Captain of Marines to provide protection.

    He, being a sturdy well-trained bloke, would probably deploy the protection party in two ranks drawn up to face the enemy. Might have 12-20 or so ashore – it would vary depending on the rate of the ships being used; how many ships etc. If a group approached intent on mayhem, he would let them get good and close – maybe 30m if they were running at you – and then give the order to fire with one rank only.

    Then they second rank would step forward through the first, and then if the enemy was still coming, another volley. Meanwhile the first rank was reloading.

    The sailors would have been brought in if the action looked like developing, They carried cutlasses ashore, and also could be using muskets – not as well trained as Marines though.

    Standard reload time for a Brown Bess musket was about 15-20 seconds in good hands.

    I doubt your aboriginal warriors were much good at tactical warfare. For a start they didn’t have effective weapons. Spears are Ok, but you can’t reload once thrown – you may have two or three but once they’re gone they’re gone. I doubt whether Australian Aboriginals would make a lot of impression on Royal Navy personnel – unless they had the element of surprise. Even without Marine protection the RN sailors were well used to defending themselves and would give a good account even when using their edged weapons and hard-pressed. Of course, you have the boats to retreat to.

    If you were really expecting trouble you could bring a ship gun with you – maybe one of the bow-chasers. They were more used for solid shot, but you could load canister into them – a big shotgun charge, if you like. One could be mounted in the eyes of a longboat and trained in harm’s way.

    Hope this helps.

  119. Rex Mango

    Seems 83% of Australians want more wind and solar polar too. How can the ABC get away with this rot?

  120. notafan

    Why would Cardinal Pell be ‘reaquainting’ himself with a Bible?

    Do you think he hadn’t glanced at one for a long time?

  121. mh

    Have the Chaser Boys climbed Ayers Rock yet?

    Coz that’s what they are about – breaking da rulz, kicking the Establishment, challenging the status quo!

  122. Muddy

    This is purely hypothetical, of course, but had our indigenous inhabitants domesticated animals such as horses, and developed warfare tactics using the same, the ‘resistance’ may have provided more of a challenge, particularly if co-ordinated.

  123. Rex Mango

    ‘What does me too mean to you? First of all it means an exchange of empathy between survivors’

    Just heard that exchange of empathy between Beverley Wang and the women that founded #Metoo & won the Sydney Peace Prize. Pell is probably her biggest scalp.

  124. cohenite

    The black arm-band aboriginal concept is like alarmism: merely a means for lefties to preen and justify their power grab.

    The aboriginals weren’t conquered, exterminated or otherwise oppressed by whitey; they were saved. But now all that good work, just like climate proofing this stupid country through coal, is being rooted by the left.

  125. Many years ago when I wrote papers on the law and history of this subject, I argued that there was at least as much to be said of the view that the Crown acquired its Australian colonies by conquest as by settlement. If acquired by conquest the aboriginals lost all title to their land. (Conquest was how the military takeover of German New Guinea was regarded.) This was not a popular argument. The High Court did not consider it in Mabo (although Murphy J held to this view in the Coe case I think). My overall judgement was that the colonists took whatever view (settled or conquest) suited their interests. Evatt’s view that NSW was a sui generis penal colony better suits the facts. It’s too late to revisit Mabo however and now the settled colony theory can be abandoned by the industry.

  126. Bruce of Newcastle

    Why would Cardinal Pell be ‘reaquainting’ himself with a Bible?

    Notafan – If I was put into solitary confinement with only a Bible I would be happy. I suspect George will be happy too. Paul spent many years in gaol – with poor eyesight and only scrolls to read when he could get them. Yet he says he learned to be content. It is a good thing to be content in the Lord’s keeping.

  127. Shy Ted

    Quick, turn over to the ABC, Australia Talks. Somebody says the most important thing affecting Australians today is whether you were conscripted or volunteered for Vietnam. Annabel and Waleed must have visited rural towns.

  128. Helen

    kaysee I intend to stay with Win 7, so long as I have adequate virus/malware. I have had AVG for years, too, but it seems to be slowing things up through bloat. And it constantly wants to make me by more stuff to fix what is slowing my ssytem. And you cant print if you are in the sandbox, banking, whichg is a waste of space.

    I will see how it runs now I have Malware back again, 29 pups and 2 malware would certianly slug the sytem. I still have 2 weeks before it expires.

    I also have crap cleaner, defraggler and speccy though I dont use the latter very much. The other two when I have spare time and feel virtuous.

    Just because Microsoft are no longer supporting Win 7, doesnt mean it wont work. It will just be like an old motor car, chugging along. When it dies eventually, I will probs go linux.

    Though I dont like the idea of being a geek to make things work, linux wise, I just want to have cocktails on the deck, not design build and then drive and repair the boat. Suck and see.

  129. Muddy

    Please excuse my ignorance Rafiki – Could you tell me what sui generis means, please?

  130. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    However I’m not at all happy that it is seen as necessary to denigrate my ancestors in order to elevate others.

    My ancestors were stockmen, drovers and station owners/mangers in the Kimberly’s, the Northern Territory and Queensland for over a hundred years from 1860. If you want to portray the pioneers as a mob of mass murderers, you’ll need better evidence then “stories my Nanna told me.”

  131. Rex Mango

    Didn’t catch the exact stat, but according to Australia Talks racism is big problem in Australia and most people think white people have an unfair advantage. Just saw the stat that says 75% of people reckon women are discriminated against on the basis of sex. This survey as crazy as any university gender theory course.

  132. Knuckle Dragger

    The Chaser could have been one of the funniest things to happen in the history of this country, and I really mean this.

    If only that cock pretending to be bin Laden, and all his entourage were mown down in a hail of gunfire when they tried that shit on in the protected area of whatever global commerce event it was.. Brisbane, I think.

  133. Gab

    Just saw the stat that says 75% of people reckon women are discriminated against on the basis of sex.

    Which women? The transgendered ones or the cis-gender ones? Or any of the other 32 varieties?

  134. BrettW

    If the accepted figure is 8,400 over 142 years then that is 59 per year on average. Or slightly over 1 per week.

    Not sure what the definition of genocide is but those numbers don’t support the view the British / Colonials were trying to wipe them out.

    Don’t have the figures but considering the size of the land area I don’t think there were many British troops here compared to other overseas colonies.

    I would guess their current “cultural activities” killing more of their own at a higher rate.

  135. Rex Mango

    When I wrote a 2nd year history piece about whether Australia was invaded, or settled, I said there was no war as the British Army played no part. Highest number of British troops in NSW was when on R&R from Maori Wars in NZ (which incidentally wouldn’t have been won, but for Australians). So I said there was no frontier war, or wars. My lecturer who was one of Australia’s leading military historians (now deceased sadly) disagreed with me, but gave me a good mark. He was one of the people leading the frontier wars charge back then.

  136. old bloke

    JC
    #3215012, posted on November 18, 2019 at 4:39 pm

    If we stopped, we would have to be sending food parcels from the east to WA.

    Great idea, please send me some Sydney rock oysters and a crate of Hunter Valley shiraz.

  137. Helen

    Steaky Bay oysters are better, and Id have champagne with them …

  138. Leigh Lowe

    mh

    #3215214, posted on November 18, 2019 at 9:09 pm

    Have the Chaser Boys climbed Ayers Rock yet?

    Which one doesn’t wear a white ribbon?

  139. Boambee John

    Top Ender

    Thanks. That covers the military situation well, however, many of the alleged massacres were by settlers or police who, in the first case, would not have the numbers to fire by ranks, and in the second case, were probably not trained to, even if they had the numbers (some of them would have been native police).

    It should not gave taken long for the aboriginals, if they were the intelligent active warriors of recent legend, to work out how to do over these lesser threats.

  140. Mater

    This is an editorial from The Hobart Town Courier in January 1834, a mere 30 years since first European settlement. Does this really sound like genocide underway?

    “Ten little children of the Aborigines, now domesticated at Flinders’ island, were last week brought up and placed with the four others already in the Orphan school, to be educated. It is of course a most desirable thing that these poor children should be properly instructed, for they have the intellectual faculty as strong as a European, and at first sight we were ready to applaud the committee for adopting apparently so benevolent a measure. It is delightful to a man of feeling to see these 14 little black children intermixed and taught in classes with the other little orphans in that noble institution; and were they all orphans and without another friend or relation to care for them, our satisfaction would be unmixed.

    “But this is not the case, most of them have parents or near relations dearly attached to them at the Establishment, by whom their separation is looked upon as the direst affliction that could befall them—a removal almost as painful as that of death itself would be. We are too ready to suppose, that because those poor people are of a different colour, they have not the same warmth of sentiment—the same tenderness of heart as ourselves—when the very opposite is the fact. The passions of the breast are even keener than ours, and we know that the parents and relations of these children daily and hourly lament their removal so much, that susceptible as they are, it is not unlikely to accelerate their death.

    “It is for this reason, that looking calmly at the matter we disapprove of the measure, and should rejoice to see the committee restore them to their homes. There is already a properly qualified schoolmaster on the island, or catechist to undertake that duty, and if it was desirable to teach them in conjunction with white children, it would have been easy to send some of the orphans from this place to stand in the classes with them.

    “These people are or ought to be as free as ourselves, and we maintain that we have no right whatever to take away their children without first consulting them—without the leave and consent of their natural parents and guardians first asked and obtained.

    “This was the great and laudable principle on which the government all along went, in the mediations of Mr. Robinson with all the tribes which brought about the present happy arrangement unprecedented in the annals of man, and it is not one of its least gratifying features, thus to see the remnants of various little states, formerly in open hostility with each other now living in social community (in all but the loss of their children) happy and contented.”

  141. Leigh Lowe

    old bloke

    #3215229, posted on November 18, 2019 at 9:26 pm

    JC
    #3215012, posted on November 18, 2019 at 4:39 pm

    If we stopped, we would have to be sending food parcels from the east to WA.

    Great idea, please send me some Sydney rock oysters and a crate of Hunter Valley shiraz.

    Helen

    #3215230, posted on November 18, 2019 at 9:29 pm

    Steaky Bay oysters are better, and Id have champagne with them …

    Old bloke … oysters and shiraz?
    Give yourself an uppercut.
    Helen is correct.
    Champagne (maybe a low alcohol prosecco) is the go with oysters.

  142. mh

    You know Hong Kong has changed when a HSBC trader pops out for lunch and gets tear gassed

    Hong Kong: ‘I was tear gassed getting my lunch’

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50438821

  143. Rex Mango

    KD, think it was APEC 2006, or 2007, with Dubya in town and it was Sydney. Part of the reason Howard clung on to power to host Bush for that summit. Did like the bit where the Chaser had blokes in suits running alongside the car as per Clint in In the Line of Fire, or Kim Jong Un in real life.

  144. cohenite

    It’s too late to revisit Mabo however and now the settled colony theory can be abandoned by the industry.

    Too late? I guess in the sense that the damage caused by NT claims could hardly be worse. But mabo, a terrible decision by activist twits, could be legislated away tomorrow since the idiocy of mabo allowed for extinguishment of the hybrid NT rights granted by mabo by legislative or executive process.

    For purposes of sui generis it means the 54th nations can do and claim whatever they want.

  145. Muddy

    Re the Chaser prats: It takes a great deal of courage to ‘kick the establishment’ when you ARE the establishment, doesn’t it? It’s a sleight of hand.

  146. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    I’m hoping hazmatic will be back tonight – Numbers Ho seems just about ready to burst a blood vessel.

  147. Knuckle Dragger

    So – going with the figures upthread for a one per week genocide over 142 years.

    Ze Chermans – very conservatively, six million over five years, 1941 from when Auschwitz opened to the Red Army finding it in early 1945 – 28.8 per week and change.

    So by any conservative analysis, we are at least 30 times worse at genocide than the lederhosen-wearing knee-slappers.

    So, there’s that.

  148. mh

    Pete Buttplug is now into $5.00 for Dem 2020 nominee!

    He’s right on the heels of Corn Pop and Pocahontas.

  149. Knuckle Dragger

    Rex,

    That’d be the one – ta.

    I was almost going to say there’s no way they’d try that on today, but on the strength of the Lindt thing they’d probably be allowed to buy a small truck’s worth of ANFO from Caltex and Elders, and then an Assistant Commissioner might make a polite enquiry of them as to the state of their garden.

  150. MatrixTransform

    Though I dont like the idea of being a geek to make things work, linux wise

    I personally like Linux Mint especially for no fuss install and clean simple gui.

    download it and put it on a memory stick

    boot from the stck and install it along side yr Win7

  151. Snoopy

    This survey as crazy as any university gender theory course.

    How can that be? It was a survey of the visitors to the ABC website who could be bothered to do the survey.

  152. Rex Mango

    High Court has been responsible for two decisions of note to divide Australia by race. Mabo which introduced property rights based on race and Bugmy which produced different sentences based on race.

    Warning, Julie Bishop now on Australia Talks, with Waleed & Annabel. Julie blaming populism at moment.

  153. Mark A

    Muddy
    #3215222, posted on November 18, 2019 at 9:17 pm

    Please excuse my ignorance Rafiki – Could you tell me what sui generis means, please?

    I’m not a lawyer, in general term it’s used more to describe unique flora or fauna. ie. one of a kind, a distinct species with no relatives.

  154. Muddy

    Boambee John
    #3215232, posted on November 18, 2019 at 9:33 pm

    It should not gave taken long for the aboriginals, if they were the intelligent active warriors of recent legend, to work out how to do over these lesser threats.

    Exactly.
    To maintain the ‘warrior’ culture myth, then, the disadvantages they faced must be enlarged, and the ‘resistance’ they showed must also be exaggerated.
    (To be fair, it is perhaps a little harsh judging them using European standards, for we might imagine they had not previously faced such organised, armed force. However, that there was seemingly little or no attempts to co-ordinate with other clans, and adapt tactics over several decades – stealing firearms, for example, using fire to raid and burn isolated settlements – leaves a large hole in the story).

  155. Boambee John

    Knuckle Dragger

    Check your maths.

    For simplicity, say 6 million over six years, or a million a year, or about 20,000 a week, allowing two weeks off for holidays.

    Our entire effort wasn’t even a week of real genocide.

  156. Boambee John

    Knuckle Dragger

    Check your maths.

    For simplicity, say 6 million over six years, or a million a year, or about 20,000 a week, allowing two weeks off for holidays.

    Our entire effort wasn’t even a week of real genocide, even if you believe the exaggerated figures now offered.

  157. Muddy

    Mark A – Thanks. I was just curious.

  158. pete m

    sui generis means unique / class of own. ie traditional law unknown elsewhere.

    No it was not conquest – all the letters of authority issued to governors etc made it clear the natives were to be accommodated as far as possible including settling lands on them – hardly a war like pronouncement. further, to initiate conquest would need international community support of the result – not likely here.

    The Mabo decision followed numerous overseas precedents of similar cases to Australia.

    What I cavil with is whether the Native Title Act is compliant with s51 just terms acquisition of property. As a later Act though it will hold sway if any inconsistency.

    I also believe only compensating for post 31/10/1975 transfers of crown land in breach of it but think there is a way to work with the NTA to go back to 1901 for Cth land. Still working on how this will apply to State owned lands or earlier colonies. I wonder if the England is off the hook for this.

  159. Entropy

    Rex Mango
    #3215224, posted on November 18, 2019 at 9:19 pm
    Didn’t catch the exact stat, but according to Australia Talks racism is big problem in Australia and most people think white people have an unfair advantage. Just saw the stat that says 75% of people reckon women are discriminated against on the basis of sex. This survey as crazy as any university gender theory course

    How very ABC.

  160. Vic in Prossy

    Any lotto on tonight?

  161. feelthebern

    You know Hong Kong has changed when a HSBC trader pops out for lunch and gets tear gassed

    He’s an idiot.
    There is a mall, foot court & proper restaurants & an MTR stop under his building.
    All HK workers at the moment know not to leave their building precinct at the moment.

  162. Knuckle Dragger

    Hey, I did veggie maths in Year 12. Proudly, I might add.

    Homework was to bring a joke to class.

  163. Boambee John

    Sorry for the double post, thought I had stopped it quickly enough for the slight addition.

  164. feelthebern

    Tracey Spicer refuses to take any responsibility for her actions.
    Well done on other journos at the Press Club for pushing back on her tripe.

  165. MatrixTransform

    I also believe only compensating for post 31/10/1975 transfers of crown land in breach of it but think there is a way to work with the NTA to go back to 1901 for Cth land. Still working on how this will apply to State owned lands or earlier colonies. I wonder if the England is off the hook for this.

    I wonder if sometime in the future, if saying something like that in Mandarin, will convey more or less the same sentiment

  166. Knuckle Dragger

    260 weeks in five years.

    6,000,000. 23,076 per week. I will therefore revise my earlier statement after having it peer-reviewed.

    We are 137.1% worse genociders than ze Chermans.

  167. Mabo was a good decision. There was nothing terrible about it. Terra nullius never applied here. Some native tribes were semi permanent, worshiped a monotheist god and practiced primitive agriculture and aquaculture.

    Can’t we be honest and say it wa s land grab, we invaded with the military and then civilians settled?
    A land grab that benefitted most white and most black alike.

    The way history is taught now is so dumbed down. You don’t read about how Aborigines assimilated very quickly in Sydney.

    The idea that Aborigines didn’t own the land is Marxist bullshit. They owned land, transferred land and even inherited land bordered and recognised by landmarks. They signed a treaty with Batman.

    Yes there were frontier wars and mistreatment of natives. But you don’t read about how 19th century liberals spoke out against the laws that lead to the government run Aboriginal reserves and stations (which now have become remote community shitholes).

    The uncertainty over NT probably violates article 1.1 of the ICERD and the restricted nature of IULAs and the Commonwealth as the sole legal buyer of NT destroys most of the value any NT does have.

  168. Rex Mango

    From memory one aspect of Mabo, was Henry Reynolds was the historian the court relied upon to develop their reasoning about Terra Nullius, so he can shoulder some of the blame. Turns out, he has now discovered his indig ancestry and heard him banging on about it on the radio other day.

    Thing that always got me, was the High Court is constituted on the basis of the Crown acquiring Australia, in the same manner as William I acquired England. So the High Court finding that a different legal system existed all along, it pretty much ceded it’s own jurisdiction. Bit like the Vatican declaring witchcraft ok.

  169. Bruce of Newcastle

    Pete Buttplug is now into $5.00 for Dem 2020 nominee!
    He’s right on the heels of Corn Pop and Pocahontas.

    Watch the squirming:

    High anxiety: Jittery Democrats fear their candidate won’t beat Trump (17 Nov)
    NBC News, by Alex Seitz-Wald

    They worry that Biden is too old and stumbling; that Mayor Pete Buttigieg of South Bend, Indiana, is too young and too inexperienced; and that Sens. Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are too far left and can’t win.

    It’s fun that the NBC guy can’t bring himself to mention that Mr Buttigeig is gay man married to another man, and that that is a big issue amongst black voters.

  170. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    From memory one aspect of Mabo, was Henry Reynolds was the historian the court relied upon to develop their reasoning about Terra Nullius, so he can shoulder some of the blame

    Henry Reynolds was also the historian who came up with the idea that white settlers massacred twenty thousand Aboriginals – two thousand white settlers were murdered by the Aborigines, and ten Aborigines were murdered for each white settler..Q.E.D.

  171. Muddy

    Yes there were frontier wars

    Bollocks.
    There is a difference between locally-based, intermittent conflicts, and formally structured and co-ordinated wars.

  172. Rex Mango

    Frank, Mabo wasn’t that bad, as it only applied to one Island, however it got applied everywhere by politicians and judges. Also the court should have just recognised freehold title, not invent a new one.

  173. Davey Boy

    no Q&A fred tonight? tonight we have SwonCone & his frens:

    Zak Kirkup, WA State Liberal MP
    Anne Aly, Labor Member for Cowan
    Hannah McGlade, Human Rights Law Researcher
    Lanai Scarr, Political Editor, The West Australian
    Dylan Storer, People’s Panellist

    Zak Kirkup = zap Kirkuk
    Anne Aly = Anal Yen
    Hannah McGlade = A Glad Henchman
    Lanai Scarr = Carnal Airs
    Dylan Storer = Dents a Lorry

  174. Muddy – in this context it means ‘one of a kind’. Evatt was writing in about 1828 I think, on the 100th anniversary of a NSW law that prescribed that English comon law (unless modified by statute) should in be of general application. (Of course, most of then NSW was occupied by the aboriginals, who applied their own laws.) His argument (I can’t check because I am sojourning in Berlin) was in effect that NSW was acquired to house convicts and little thought given to how the common law of colonisation applied. The Mabo judgments are very poor on an historical perspective. Gaudron and Deane were however happy to describe it as ‘dark’, unaware that dark-skinned people deprecated such language.

  175. RobK

    Sweet cheeses. Q&A has gone full alinsky.

  176. feelthebern

    Anne Aly,

    Terrorism deprogrammer.

  177. Thing that always got me, was the High Court is constituted on the basis of the Crown acquiring Australia, in the same manner as William I acquired England. So the High Court finding that a different legal system existed all along, it pretty much ceded it’s own jurisdiction. Bit like the Vatican declaring witchcraft ok.

    William didn’t destroy the existing legal structure.

    He destroyed the Saxon lords who kept on breaking their oaths in the harrowing of the north.

    The most significant thing is that Roman law was laid atop of common law the first time since the Romans, outside of the churches.

    It is why I assert that nullum crimen, poena nulla sine lege (and particulalry, poena nulla sine stricta and poena nulla sine certa have always been part of the common law.

  178. Shy Ted

    Right on cue, Australia Talks tells us the issue most dividing Australia is…. drum roll… Australia Day. Something tells me nobody went outside Ultimo.

  179. Attempted repeal of Mabo might be held invalid on the basis that it violated a constitutional prohibition on racially discriminatory law.

  180. Davey Boy

    we have an elderly white mail protester in the audience of Q&A! Tony shuts him down

  181. Knuckle Dragger

    ‘Bollocks.
    There is a difference between locally-based, intermittent conflicts, and formally structured and co-ordinated wars.’

    Yup.

    Using the Dark Emu model, for apparently this is the thing to do, shouldn’t there have been companies, battalions, brigades and divisions of superbly trained indig in phalanxes either ambushing and slaughtering colonists and Marines in their thousands, a la Teutoberg Gorge, or drawing an enemy force into their centre before rolling their flanks up and enveloping, as per Cannae?

    No? Oh.

  182. Top Ender

    Tomorrow is the anniversary of the sinking of our cruiser HMAS Sydney on 19 November 1941, in battle with the German raider Kormoran off Western Australia.

    We lost more men – 645 lives – in that one action than we lost in the entire Vietnam War.

    Much controversy over the engagement for many decades. The Wiki article is quite good – I get a mention down the pages for being angry with certain people…..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_between_HMAS_Sydney_and_German_auxiliary_cruiser_Kormoran

  183. Rex Mango

    Think the most important thing about the law it has to be practical (although almost never is). Mabo thirty years on has divided the country by different property rights. An army of public servants have got to occupy boring jobs doing nothing. Thousands of lawyers have sent their kids to private schools and bought plush houses in Melbourne and Sydney. A whole bunch of judges and politicians have retired with warm and fuzzy feelings, along with an Australia Day gong, or two. A few indig folk are better off financially.

  184. I should say that the point of first contribution is that if the colonies be regarded as conquered, the entire basis of Mabo reasoning is false. Will this bother the judges et al? No, because to them this is s political issue.

  185. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Tomorrow is the anniversary of the sinking of our cruiser HMAS Sydney on 19 November 1941, in battle with the German raider Kormoran off Western Australia.

    Pusser’s didn’t have a good year there, did they? First “Sydney” then “Perth” and “Canberra.”

  186. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Thousands of lawyers have sent their kids to private schools and bought plush houses in Melbourne and Sydney.

    The joke was MABO stood for “Money Abounding, Barristers Only.”

  187. twostix

    Can’t we be honest and say it wa s land grab, we invaded with the military and then civilians settled?

    The First Fleet had ~250 soldiers and ~1100 civilians.

    17 years of government education and this is what we get. Are you retarded, dot?

  188. jupes

    Mabo was a good decision.

    Dotty jumps the shark. Here we have a libertarian agreeing that the most totalitarian society ever – the tribe – should have legal status. FMD

    Yes there were frontier wars and mistreatment of natives.

    Can you actually have a “war” if one or both sides don’t know they’re in one?

  189. Muddy

    K.D.
    A war also implies the assent of a recognised authority. While the occasions where so-called ‘punitive’ expeditions set out to find alleged indigenous law-breakers could be described as having the assent of a recognised authority (in the form of a Government direction, to either soldiers or civilians), such occasions normally had limited objectives and centred on civilian law. (Whether or not the outcomes were legal or morally responsible, is another debate entirely). A war, on the other hand, usually had broader, or even ‘open’ objectives, and normally superimposed military needs upon a civilian population.

  190. Rex Mango
    #3215269, posted on November 18, 2019 at 10:01 pm

    Frank, Mabo wasn’t that bad, as it only applied to one Island

    The High Court have also ruled that there is one common law that unifies legal systems.

    The Mer Islanders were not the only native group that Vattel’s formula did not apply directly to regarding terra nullius.

    Why even pay attention to terra nullius? It was badly intentioned nonsense.

    This is like the debates that Hart, Hand and Devlin would have. Why are we bound to the laws of an evil regime? Do you have an objective morality or not? Can you honestly justify imperialism?

    Even if you can, why now should not native title apply in limited cases the same way that squatters can have rights or land can be enclosed or taken by adverse possession?

    Regardless…you’d think selling land to whites, treating land like whites with property transfers would count as ownership anyway…if the colonial governors had instructions to treat the natives justly, then they were ordered to respect the private property rights over real estate the natives had.

    We should not view indigenous Australia as an amorphous, commie blob of noble savages “who dern baleive in ohnershippe…” the way the left does. A few tribes here and there don’t fit into Vattel’s formula, a few count as civilised in a very primitive form, a few may well have been rightly (?) declared in terra nullius land and some had systems to own and alienate land title.

  191. Rex Mango

    Think key thing about Mabo is they lit a fuse that is still burning and no-one sure if it will burn out.

  192. twostix

    The first fleet simply made good use of the perfect implementation of open borders ideology of the aboriginal people.

    An open borders libertarian success story!

  193. RobK

    Q&A confirms there’s hardship out there and Gina’s unfair.

  194. A few indig folk are better off financially.

    Very few. I blame the IULAs and the Commonwealth as the sole buyer of native title.

    That came from the Act, which was really just Keating meddling in the internal affairs of Western Australia.

    The NTA would not have happened but for the races power.

    The races power ought to go.

  195. Rex Mango

    Frank, the common law absorbed a lot from the time before Norman conquest. It had about 600 years to develop from Henry II to settlement of Australia. It was very flexible and could be applied quite effectively and was across a new continent, as it has been around the world. There was no need to bring in new forms of property rights in 1992.

  196. Muddy

    Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
    #3215285, posted on November 18, 2019 at 10:15 pm

    Tomorrow is the anniversary of the sinking of our cruiser HMAS Sydney on 19 November 1941, in battle with the German raider Kormoran off Western Australia.

    Pusser’s didn’t have a good year there, did they? First “Sydney” then “Perth” and “Canberra.”

    A corvette was lost off the east coast of Ceylon in about April ’42, and H.M.A.S. Armidale in late Nov ’42 (I think). H.M.A.S. Voyager prior to that?

  197. EvilElvis

    Postwar, the Australian economy will be f**ked.

    Do we have to wait for a war, and for it to end before calling it? Sheesh…

  198. twostix

    Too bad the role they played in the coming China troubles will be all that open borders lunatics will be remembered for (you seriously argued we should let in how many Chinese Communists to our tiny western countries??)

    It’s a shame but at least they’ll always have the First Fleet to be proud of!

  199. Rex Mango

    Australia Day big issue on Q&A, what a surprise.

  200. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    A corvette was lost off the east coast of Ceylon in about April ’42, and H.M.A.S. Armidale in late Nov ’42 (I think). H.M.A.S. Voyager prior to that?

    TopEnder may be able to correct me, but Royal Australian Navy went to war in 1939 with two heavy cruisers “Australia and “Canberra” and four light cruisers, so, in a year, they lost half of their cruiser strength.

  201. Rex Mango

    Panellist on Q&A just said ‘we were dispossessed without treaty, it was unlawful’.

  202. Muddy

    Agreed, Zulu. I was adding the smaller vessels to the total.

  203. Tel

    Dotty jumps the shark. Here we have a libertarian agreeing that the most totalitarian society ever – the tribe – should have legal status. FMD

    If people are members of a tribe by choice (we can argue that) and also free to leave if they want to, then I’m OK with the concept of a group of people pooling their individual property rights and being recognized by law.

    That’s no different to, say a chess & whiskey club accepting member’s dues and buying a hall where they can play chess together and drink whiskey. The hall, furniture, boards, chess pieces and bar all belong to the club which is an incorporation of all the member’s interests, therefore it becomes collective property under law. There’s some process by which the club makes decisions (possibly voting, for example) and they might choose to sell this table and buy something different. Nothing totalitarian about that.

  204. Muddy

    Did we gain the Shropshire as a replacement for the Canberra?

  205. Rex Mango

    Panellist on Q&A adamant that Australia Day is hurting First Nations peoples.

  206. Why is it so offensive to say we had frontier wars and the many separate Aboriginal tribes got their arses handed to them?

    1. “I’m a white conservative, I am offended by this, what someone else, from another white ethnic group did, who I am not related to at all, 180 years ago”

    2 “I am a white lefty or indoctrinated blackfella and I cannot handle the reality that 40,000 BC technology was no match for early modern rifles, mounted police and NSW Marines and a society than could make maps – Aboriginal science is on par with CERN and Sloan Kettering”

    I brought up slavery (as in Australia had slavery, re: blackbirding and forced labour in mission stations, this happened after Federation so we can’t blame the poms) and people here went absolutely spastic.

    Research the Walgalu tribe (Tumbarumba to Tintaldra and Kosciusko), NSW).

    It got wiped out. The Wiradjuri, Ngunnawalor Ngairo are not the traditional owners of the area.

    They fought a war and lost in the worst possible way.

    Anyone who reckons they’re a Walgalu elder is full of shit. You may as well tell them that you’re Ghengis Khan.

  207. Muddy

    Panellist on Q&A adamant that Australia Day is hurting First Nations peoples.

    First Nations are Canadians, so how does Australia Day affect them?
    Cultural appropriation.

  208. zyconoclast

    Israel Folau criticised for ‘appalling’ Australia bushfire remarks

    Folau, who is Christian, gave a sermon in his Sydney church on Sunday in which he said Australia’s decision to pass abortion and same-sex marriage laws had gone against “God’s word”, adding the nation needed to “repent”.

    “Look how rapid, these bushfires, these droughts, all these things have come, in a short period of time. You think it’s a coincidence or not?,” he said.

  209. Muddy

    Frank Walker from National Tiles
    #3215314, posted on November 18, 2019 at 10:33 pm

    Why is it so offensive to say we had frontier wars

    You’re a legal eagle, correct?
    If affirmative, then you are aware that words have specific definitions and implications?

  210. EvilElvis

    Damn, there’s a lot of content to go through when you drop a few Qs out in the morning but get busy and don’t return until evening…

    Rest assured my time was well spent, a portion of which was spent at the local Medicare. Which is actually only a sign in the cesspit known as Centrelink. FMD, this country and every single one of its administrative public servants are fucked. It’s like walking into a warehouse now that has a help desk, with help realistically never coming. Just sit down with the other cattle, indigenous, crackheads, disabled freaks and oldies wondering why God would put them through this. The woman I presented to was a massive help… Her offsider noting my droll sense of humour at being voluntarily caught in this circle of hell exchanged knowing glances, eye rolls and no doubt sexual chemistry that would have burnt the place down. If you’d come back the next morning to the smoldering wreckage you wouldn’t know anything had changed…

    Filled out a form, returned to desk and stood in line behind a white Aboriginal double leg amputee who was eyeballing me. Height wise. Big boy on a couple of titanium pegs. I almost asked him if he was a lesbian. All of Centrelink/Australian society rolled into one lifeform.

  211. Rex Mango
    #3215296, posted on November 18, 2019 at 10:24 pm

    Frank, the common law absorbed a lot from the time before Norman conquest. It had about 600 years to develop from Henry II to settlement of Australia. It was very flexible and could be applied quite effectively and was across a new continent, as it has been around the world. There was no need to bring in new forms of property rights in 1992.

    Native title should be freehold and the government should not be the only legal buyer.

  212. RobK

    Q&A onto family values; there are lots of types of families. All this based on Australia Talks survey.
    I think the lawyer said genocide wrt her indigenous past.

  213. You couldn’t call this anything but a public castration:
    (Bolding same as the original statement)

    Statement from Frederick W. Smith, Chairman and CEO of FedEx Corporation
    November 17, 2019

    The New York Times published a distorted and factually incorrect story on the front page of the Sunday, November 17 edition concerning FedEx and our billions of dollars of tax payments and billions of dollars of investments in the U.S. economy. Pertinent to this outrageous distortion of the truth is the fact that unlike FedEx, the New York Times paid zero federal income tax in 2017 on earnings of $111 million, and only $30 million in 2018 – 18% of their pretax book income. Also in 2018 the New York Times cut their capital investments nearly in half to $57 million, which equates to a rounding error when compared to the $6 billion of capital that FedEx invested in the U.S. economy during that same year.

    I hereby challenge A.G. Sulzberger, publisher of the New York Times and the business section editor to a public debate in Washington, DC with me and the FedEx corporate vice president of tax. The focus of the debate should be federal tax policy and the relative societal benefits of business investments and the enormous intended benefits to the United States economy, especially lower and middle class wage earners.

    I look forward to promptly hearing from Mr. Sulzberger and scheduling this open event to bring further public awareness of the facts related to these important issues.

  214. Rex Mango

    Folau’s argument about bushfire causation is more sensible than Adam Brandt’s.

  215. mh

    It’s fun that the NBC guy can’t bring himself to mention that Mr Buttigeig is gay man married to another man, and that that is a big issue amongst black voters.

    It’s funny that Butters is Mayor of South Bend.

  216. Top Ender

    Here you go – list of RAN ships lost in WWII:

    http://www.gunplot.net/casualties/ranww2shiplosses.html

    It’s an excellent web site if you haven’t seen The Gun Plot before.

  217. twostix

    The most pathetic thing I’ve witnessed this year.

    Degrading.

  218. Rex Mango

    Youngest bloke on Q&A reckons there is no such thing as traditional family values and society will never collapse due lack of them. Also just said family values were broken up on 26Jan1788, but not due SSM. Reported without comment.

  219. Knuckle Dragger

    #istillmisstestpattern

  220. Top Ender

    Poor old Waller of the Perth and Rankin of the Yarra should have been given a VC apiece, as should Sheean of the Armidale.

    The fact that the RN approved our awards, and the Army and RAAF’s were approved in Australia, seems to be quite Ok with the various “inquiries” that have been held over the years. To this day the RAN has never been given a Victoria Cross.

  221. Rex Mango

    TE, any ships lost in any war since WW2? Perhaps the future War of the South China Sea the RAN may have to step up to the plate?

  222. Tel

    Why is it so offensive to say we had frontier wars and the many separate Aboriginal tribes got their arses handed to them?

    It’s inaccurate, and some people are bothered by that. War requires a declaration of war by the ruling party at the time, or at very least a generally understood notion that the war exists without formal declaration.

    You can have local feuds, maybe rough frontier justice, even perhaps some genuine confusion over property rights and mutual obligations … but not a war.

    If there had been a genuine war then all of the native inhabitants would have very easily been wiped out.

  223. Rex Mango

    Onto climate change now on Q&A and young bloke reckons Torres Straight Islands going under water, so there goes Native Title.

  224. Muddy

    Thanks, Top Ender.
    I have visited the Gun Plot previously, but only briefly.
    Vampire was the destroyer off Ceylon I was thinking of.
    Why is Armidale classed as an Auxiliary Mine Sweeper? Was ‘corvette’ not a class?

  225. Old School Conservative

    If only that cock pretending to be bin Laden, and all his entourage were mown down in a hail of gunfire when they tried that shit on in the protected area of whatever global commerce event it was

    I’ll bet it was a prearranged stunt, carried out in full knowledge and agreement by “the authorities”.
    The armed security forces would have blazed a swathe of death and destruction on that group of comedians had they not been briefed beforehand.

  226. Rex Mango

    Another panel member also declared she doesn’t believe in family values. Rather odd, that so many parents go to such lengths to instil something that doesn’t actually exist.

  227. War requires a declaration of war by the ruling party at the time

    You’re taking the piss aren’t you?

    […and what about “low intensity conflict”, let alone “economic warfare”, the wars on drugs, wahmen, terror…]

    If there had been a genuine war then all of the native inhabitants would have very easily been wiped out.

    I gave you an example of where this actually happened (Walgalu in Sthn NSW).

  228. Overburdened

    Vincent Lingiari was a champ and so was Gough Whitlam we are advised by Paul Kelly.

    In spite of his best efforts, most people these days wouldn’t know much about Vincent Lingiari unless he has marquee status in history classes at school, of which I would not know.

    The issue isn’t about what happened it is about the incapacity of Indigs to adapt to a prevailing dominant culture.

    This implies no expressions of support for the supremacy of the Europeans. The decay and replacement of the last iterations of that era is pretty much done.

    Given what I know about the situation, I reckon if the Europeans and Britain (#brexit conscious) hadn’t turned up, the indigs in what are still the most marginal locations would have exhausted themselves.

    No good deed will go unpunished etc

    I feel the need to say that, depending on the circumstances, I respect everyone I meet as worthy in the first instance and take each individual as I find them. None of my comments should be viewed as personal criticisms of individuals, and as much as possible I do not say things that are not arguable.

    I have found this a helpful approach in some places.

  229. RobK

    Here we go. … H2, RE, bushfires, CAGW

  230. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Did we gain the Shropshire as a replacement for the Canberra?

    IIRC, yes – “Shropshire” was loaned from the Royal Navy – “Shropshire” and “Arunta” were present at Surigao Strait – the last “Big Gun ” naval battle in history, where the American battleships – including those salvaged after Pearl Harbor – “crossed the “T”, in traditional style, and sank two Japanese battleships “Fuso” and “Yamashiro” with almost all hands.

  231. twostix

    Every single anglosphere nation on the planet ran on the idea that we are successful and safe thanks to god and it is gods protection that saves us from the disasters that the average heathen shithole suffers every other day.

    Looks like we’re going to find out!

  232. Overburdened

    Soz

    Meant to say that if I give an individual a spray, it is never about politics or issues unrelated to them.

    It is because they are appalling people, demonstrated by their actions.

  233. Rex Mango

    Woman of colour wearing scarf asking question of panel about politicians lying about cause of bushfires. She wins Q&A Victim Poker.

  234. Rohan

    Are there others in a similar situation? Currently with Win 7 and wondering what to do?

    You can still upgrade to win10 for free if you have a legit win7 license.

    It works. Did Dads laptop last week. Zero issues.

  235. twostix

    Also at this point literally front-paging Folau’s remarks at his minuscule church on major newspapers is starting to smell a bit like incitement (definitely stalking and harassment).

    The media class in this country are vicious little shits and I regret being against letting Gillard create a government department to put a leash on them. At least we’d occasionally see them whipped by the Labor party.

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