Moment of liberation: cheers, prayers and a juicy steak

It seems the Cardinal gave his first exclusive interview to the American Catholic News Agency. Good choice.

“I was watching the television news in my cell when the news came through,” Pell told CNA, in an exclusive interview shortly after his release on Tuesday.

“First, I heard that leave was granted and then that the convictions were quashed. I thought, ‘Well that’s great. I’m delighted.’”

“Of course, there was no one to talk to about it until my legal team arrived,” Pell said.

“However, I did hear a great cheer from somewhere within the jail and then the three other inmates near me made it clear they were delighted for me.”

After his release, Pell said he spent the afternoon at a quiet location in Melbourne, and enjoyed a steak for his first “free” meal in more than 400 days.

“What I am really looking forward to is celebrating a private Mass,” Pell told CNA before he had the opportunity to do so. “It has been a very long time, so that is a great blessing.”

The cardinal told CNA that he had lived his time in prison as a “long retreat,” and a time for reflection, writing, and, above all, prayer.

 
Few 78 year-olds could walk out of a maximum security jail after being put through years of torturous abuse by corrupt politicians, officials and media identities. I can think of no greater example of manly fortitude in recent Australian history. Daniel Andrews was too cowardly to even mention Cardinal Pell yesterday and too morally insipid to apologise. I recollect also the leave taken by desk copper and VicPol Commissioner, Graeme Ashton, a few years ago for “mental and physical exhaustion.” Both identify as male but they’re not men – not as George Pell is a man. There is something to be drawn from his example by the entire Catholic clergy.

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125 Responses to Moment of liberation: cheers, prayers and a juicy steak

  1. Iain Russell

    Agree entirely. Must be AOTY for 2021.

  2. WDYSIA

    Good for him. I hope he washed it down with a nice red.
    Chris Merritt in today’s Australian confirms that Pell’s accuser had a history of psychological problems but that this was kept from the jury. He also says that Pell’s defence was not allowed to seek further information about his psychological state. Merritt calls for scrutiny of Victoria’s legal system.
    Elsewhere I read that the accuser will make a statement through his lawyer today.

  3. Petros

    So what happens now to the other judges that got it so wrong? Doctors would be charged with negligence and be deregistered.

  4. WDYSIA

    The Pell jury was never told that the complainant had a history of psychological problems that required treatment. Nor were they told that Pell’s legal team was rebuffed in court — in the absence of the jury — when they attempted to gain access to records showing the extent of this man’s psychological problems.

    Pell spent over a year in jail because of a lying nutter. Was this the outcome of Dan Andrews legal changes?

  5. AC

    No doubt blowhards Louise Milligan and David Marr will be on their ABC soon sprouting “new” evidence or some excuse why 7-0 was not an acquittal!

  6. WDYSIA

    I apologise for posting yet again but I missed this yesterday and I will apologise if other people have noted it before. Rupert Murdoch backed Bolt who backed Pell.
    https://twitter.com/MayneReport/status/1247474883501514752
    Well done Mr Murdoch. But did Pell get caught up in a Murdoch vs ABC proxy media war?

  7. Tintarella di Luna

    Yes currencylad, you have put it so elegantly as usual, there are men and then there are carriers of the XY chromosome. Cardinal George Pell, what a man.

    As far as I am concerned he embodies and displays the cardinal and theological virtues with an exemplary grace – Prudence and Temperance – as per his statement, his Fortitude in bearing the burden, calumnies and hatred and his deep respect for Justice the child of Truth and the faith, hope and love that sustained him over the disgraceful travesty which is in fact criminal justice.

    I am very sad though that I could not thank God by attending to celebrate Mass yesterday or today or who knows when.

  8. rickw

    “However, I did hear a great cheer from somewhere within the jail and then the three other inmates near me made it clear they were delighted for me.”

    Crooks are more decent than Daniel Andrews.

  9. Up The Workers!

    When individuals so poison the environment that an accused person cannot get a fair trial, they are charged with contempt of court or a similar charge.

    Is there any likelihood that the A.L.P.B.C., Fauxfacts and their Walkley-Award-winning fiction-writing staff will be similarly charged?

    Are Walkley Awards often given out like confetti to lurid fiction-writers or just the fact-free activist Leftard ones?

    Are the cases presided over by the two Labor-appointed Appeal Court Judges being scrutinised for any other instances of the imprisonment of innocent men?

    If not, why not?

  10. Herodotus

    I heard a report on the BBC World Service overnight. They interviewed what sounded like an Australian correspondent, who said things which seemed to suggest that he got off on a technicality and innocence was not proven. Surprise surprise, they were talking to some ABC bint.

  11. Eyrie

    “there are men and then there are carriers of the XY chromosome”
    I’m stealing that Tintarella.
    Sinc, can you make that a liberty quote, please?

  12. It appears that Their ABC is not giving up,. They continue to sow misinformation about the High Court judgment in an attempt to confuse the layman and convince them that Pell is still guilty and simply got off on a ‘technicality’. Can there be anything more repulsive than Their ABC?

  13. nb

    ‘Daniel Andrews was too cowardly to even mention Cardinal Pell’
    Wow! Horrendous coward.

    Herodotus, #3399351, posted on April 8, 2020 at 6:21 am:
    ‘BBC World Service … seemed to suggest that he got off on a technicality … they were talking to some ABC bint.’
    Unanimous judgment, all signing up to the same set of reasons. Those reasons said a reasonable doubt existed because there was a perfectly credible version of events from witnesses whose truthfulness was not questioned. That is not a technicality. That is the fundamental principle for determining innocence or guilt in criminal law – reasonable doubt.

    For the judgment itself go to this High Court site and download the PDF:
    http://eresources.hcourt.gov.au/downloadPdf/2020/HCA/12

    The judgment is worth reading.
    The ABC is now merely a propaganda unit for communism. Communism cannot survive organic internal diversity of thought. Communists call divergent thought ‘false consciousness’.
    ABC, truly a disgusting organisation.

  14. notafan

    That is lovely.

    I knew his fellow prisoners would recognise him for the man he is.

    ‘A great cheer’.

    Delightful memory for our Cardinal Pell.

    ‘Manufactured obscurity’

    You lovin’ that phrase Louise?

  15. Crossie

    Well done Mr Murdoch. But did Pell get caught up in a Murdoch vs ABC proxy media war?

    I don’t think so, ABC has had it in for the Catholic Church for longer than Murdoch.

    I remember as a child ABC used to televise Sunday Mass, can’t remember when they stopped and what was their excuse. Televising Mass in the current lockdown could have been their contribution to this emergency but no, misinformation is their new mission.

  16. Crossie

    rickw
    #3399348, posted on April 8, 2020 at 5:57 am
    “However, I did hear a great cheer from somewhere within the jail and then the three other inmates near me made it clear they were delighted for me.”

    Crooks are more decent than Daniel Andrews.

    And reminiscent of the happenings in Jerusalem some two thousand years ago. Andrews isn’t even up to being Pontus Pilate, he’s just a Pharisee.

  17. Perfidious Albino

    I think I read Ferguson-Jones is releasing a book based on their recently televised hatchet job “Revelation”, appropriately, published by Hachette. No doubt this is ‘within the rules’ but I would like to know whether she personally receives an income from this over and above her ABC salary and what publicly owned resources may have been leveraged in order to do so. It seems a similar model to Milligan’s work of fiction and frankly it stinks. If I was the relevant federal minister I would be having a close look at this and revising the ‘rules’ if necessary.

  18. nfw

    I’m not Catholic but from the get-go (and Gillard’s RC (sic)) saw it as a set-up. I now see all the spittle dribblers on Their ALPBC are saying things such as “just because the verdict has been overturned doesn’t mean he’s been found not guilty”. Ah, yes it does spittle dribblers because if your “guilty” conviction has been erased you are ipso facto not guilty as if the trial never took place. I would like to hear the dribblers comment on the sexual harassment allegations against Joe Ukraine China Biden.

  19. Iampeter

    Few 78 year-olds could walk out of a maximum security jail after being put through years of torturous abuse by corrupt politicians, officials and media identities.

    Except for the ones that voted for him to be released I suppose?
    Isn’t leftist identity politics fun?
    Funner still on a right wing blog!

    George Pell is a man.

    Yea he’s a real man. I mean, he’s never had a job, never made a living engaging in rational productive activity.
    Due to his religious beliefs he has a completely perverse view of sex, so he’s never been in love, started a family, or even had so much as a fling. Likely he’s never even had sex.
    What a man!
    Not like those wimps that deal with reality honestly, that engage in rational and productive activity, producing all the wealth and prosperity we enjoy. Men that have healthy sex lives and loving, fulfilling relationships with other people, starting families and raising more men who will keep living fully and prosperously. No, these aren’t real men.
    No, it’s the guy who in his twilight years has less achievements under his belt than lifelong welfare recipients that is the real man.

    Seriously, I agree that Pell should’ve been released but people who have all this love and respect for Pell really need to re-assess their standards and judgement.

  20. notafan

    Oh shut up you foul creature.

    You want to deny a man’s humanity because he is a celibate.

    He ‘managed’ the seminary, he was in charge of the Catholic education Office, real jobs in anyone rational’s book.

  21. notafan

    Much forensic demolition here.

    Chris Friel

  22. calli

    It appears that Their ABC is not giving up,. They continue to sow misinformation about the High Court judgment in an attempt to confuse the layman and convince them that Pell is still guilty and simply got off on a ‘technicality’. Can there be anything more repulsive than Their ABC?

    If the ABC is actively seeking to undermine the finding of the High Court, they should be immediately closed down. Taxpayers’ money should not be used to fund subversive enterprises, and any government worth its salt would cut the spigot right now while they’re caught in the act.

    Yes. I’m dreaming.

  23. I am Putrid reckons those 18 year olds who got their heads blown off in WW1 before they found the bordello weren’t real men.

    Such confused bullshit. Conflating feminist shaming of men, a caricature of Randian Objectivism, traditional fundamentalist Christian values and post 1970s western sex positivism.

    Just stop Putrid. You don’t know your ear from your rear.

    PS -Putrid thinks Fr Maximillian Kolbe was not a real man.

    https://youtu.be/BA65lg1HWt4

  24. Tintarella di Luna

    “there are men and then there are carriers of the XY chromosome”
    I’m stealing that Tintarella.

    You’re welcome Eyrie – have been so vexed by what has been undertaken by the taxpayer-funded ABC — this should be the opportunity for the government to shut it down and fire them all except for national emergency broadcasts without opinion attached — a travesty and it continues to misinform and misguide while continuing to traduce an innocent man.

  25. Tintarella di Luna

    Are the cases presided over by the two Labor-appointed Appeal Court Judges being scrutinised for any other instances of the imprisonment of innocent men?

    If not, why not?

    Well there is Lawyer X and the corruption and stench still isn’t enough for the voters to get rid of the XY carrier Dunderhead Dan.

  26. notafan

    This paper, as an example of what was going on in Operation Tethering, is well worth reading.

    Chris friel why 1997, revisited

  27. Herodotus

    The other Ferguson in The Australian keeps trying to get the right tone on the Pell case, but still manages to slip in some odd sentences, such as finishing with Pell was wronged. No more, no less.
    And, in respect of whether those events could have taken place, It’s now plain that they couldn’t.
    It was plain to most intelligent observers from a long way back.
    Why isn’t Pell’s character mentioned by commentators as part of the reasoning that he couldn’t have done those deeds?
    They just don’t want to admit it.

  28. Igor

    This will no doubt go down in the annals of legal history with that of the travesty of the Lindy Chamberlain case. Then, like now, the persecuted was a victim of a sustained witch hunt, trial by media and character assassination. In this case the witch hunt was championed to the very end by that bastion of balance, the ABC, which, along with the Victorian Police, included trawling for victims with the implicit carrot of compensation. All of this on the public purse.

    In each case the public was manipulated to apply responsibility of the peculiarities and crimes of the institutions they were a part of to the individual. In other words, if they weren’t guilty of the crimes as charged with, they were guilty of something.

    A truly reprehensible stain that had and has no place it what most would hope is a civil society.

  29. Judge Dredd

    God gives you strength. With faith in God you can overcome any barbs that your enemies throw at you. It is interesting to see the fortitude of those who are Godless and those that have a strong faith in their lives. Weak men are generally God-less as they are confined to the material.

  30. Rob

    “However, I did hear a great cheer from somewhere within the jail and then the three other inmates near me made it clear they were delighted for me.”

    Crooks are more decent than Daniel Andrews.

    It seems like you don’t recognise that Dan Andrews is a crook.

  31. Gyro Cadiz

    The amazing torrent of mental disease confessions from screeching leftard nutters at the twitter #pell site overnight has not even slowed down.

    It’s like a volcano-sized boil has been lanced, with the pus and corruption pouring out endlessly. Never seen anything like it.

    These alleged people are insane.

    I have never even looked at a Twitt(sew)er thread before. Is it all just a vomitorium for mad leftards and other crazies??

  32. John Comnenus

    Well said currency lad. I was saying something similar to Mrs Comnenus last night. As Bolt put it last night how did he not kill himself. He is a tower of strength and principle in contrast to his persecutors who are cowards and shameless.

  33. Kneel

    Yea he’s a real man. I mean, he’s never had a job, never made a living engaging in rational productive activity.

    I would have thought you would appreciate the work he and his fellows do – after all, their teachings and advice are some of the few about that would recommend against taking you outside and beating the crap out of you for your intolerant, discriminatory, bullshit rants on a subject about which you clearly know nothing of any value – religion. You need to go and learn a bit about the subject before you post your infantile, ignorant crap – same advice you give others re: politics.

  34. Boambee John

    Herodotus
    #3399351, posted on April 8, 2020 at 6:21 am
    I heard a report on the BBC World Service overnight. They interviewed what sounded like an Australian correspondent, who said things which seemed to suggest that he got off on a technicality and innocence was not proven. Surprise surprise, they were talking to some ABC bint.

    If I might be (like the seagull) a pedantic pedanty pedant, Cardinal Pell did get off on a technicality, a minor one of exculpatory evidence, a word which seems haram to Their ABC.

  35. Kneel

    ” Crooks are more decent than Daniel Andrews.

    It seems like you don’t recognise that Dan Andrews is a crook.”

    Bit harsh on the average thief, innit, comparing them to that… individual.

  36. Iampeter

    Oh shut up you foul creature.

    Wow, you guys trigger easier than any leftists I’ve ever met.
    Conservatives really are the snowiest snowflakes.

    You want to deny a man’s humanity because he is a celibate.

    Because he is celibate for irrational reasons. Plus everything else I mentioned and you ignored.
    Strange that responses only focused on the sex par and missed the point anyway.

    He ‘managed’ the seminary, he was in charge of the Catholic education Office, real jobs in anyone rational’s book.

    Yea the fact that he is a pretty high ranking member of one of the worlds most left wing, corrupt and evil organizations kinda overshadows everything else anyway. I was being charitable and not mentioning it since I could make my point just fine without needing to.

  37. Boambee John

    Crooks are more decent than Daniel Andrews.

    I am reminded of the petty thief in London during the Falklands war. He stole a briefcase from an unlocked car, and found information in it related to British operations.

    He dropped it off at a police station, with a note to the effect that he was a crook , but a patriotic one, and a suggestion that the careless person concerned should be hanged.

  38. Peter Finch

    Who is this I am a Dork? It reminds me of the irriate at school who goes around annoying everyone just to get attention. When he was bashed by the school bully it empowered him to go harder. Well I for one will turn the other cheek but not the facial variety. Best we let him post and just fly past his tortured logic, hang on is that a logical expression?

    Anyway I hope they opened a 1990 Grange for George! Perhaps everyone could recommend which wine should have been served at his “first supper” outside Dan’s pen.

  39. Suburban Boy

    I mean, he’s never had a job …

    From Wikipedia:

    “Shortly after becoming Archbishop of Melbourne in August 1996, Pell discussed the issue of child abuse with the Victorian premier, governor and retired judge Richard McGarvie, who all recommended swift action. He engaged the law firm Corrs to draft a scheme which would be funded by but operate independently of the Archdiocese of Melbourne. … Victims were publicly encouraged to come forward.

    Pell’s Melbourne-specific policy preceded the national church response, known as “Towards Healing”, which the Australian Catholic Bishops’ Conference approved in November and took effect in March 1997.

    When Pell was appointed a cardinal in 2003, the ABC [!] noted that he had established Australia’s first independent commissioner to handle child sexual abuse complaints against clergy.

  40. Iampeter

    God gives you strength. With faith in God you can overcome any barbs that your enemies throw at you. It is interesting to see the fortitude of those who are Godless and those that have a strong faith in their lives. Weak men are generally God-less as they are confined to the material.

    Yea, but those “weak men” don’t fly planes into skyscrapers, so…

    I would have thought you would appreciate the work he and his fellows do – after all, their teachings and advice are some of the few about that would recommend against taking you outside and beating the crap out of you for your intolerant, discriminatory, bullshit rants on a subject about which you clearly know nothing of any value – religion.

    Why was Elderly Man from Skipton banned from the Cat again?

    You need to go and learn a bit about the subject before you post your infantile, ignorant crap – same advice you give others re: politics.

    This is what you need to do and you know it.
    Hence the triggered, unhinged and absolutely inappropriate response.

  41. cuckoo

    “However, I did hear a great cheer from somewhere within the jail and then the three other inmates near me made it clear they were delighted for me.”

    At the risk of an extreme comparison, it reminds me of a man who was once promised “This day you will be with me in Paradise”.

  42. The Fifth Bike Rider of the Apocalypse

    7-nil.
    That’s some technicality!

  43. notafan

    Catholic church-evil.

    Iampeter- irrational hatred of the Church.

    That’s all there is, there isn’t, any more.

  44. Docket62

    I am not a catholic, but my wife and her family are.. They were in the middle of the paedophile war zone in Melbourne as kids and I have heard stories retold. To a person they forgave, they moved on and had successful lives (not measured by wealth or trappings)

    I deeply respect Pell for what must have been an horrific period of his life (not just the time incarcerated) and to be vindicated in the eyes of not only his god, but the community that still respects the church and its work must be as close to ecclesiastical nirvana as is possible.

    All the trolls in the world , all the vitriolic journalists in the world – can’t take that from him.

  45. Gyro Cadiz

    Tinta:

    I am very sad though that I could not thank God by attending to celebrate Mass yesterday or today or who knows when.

    Many masses online from all around the world now. Our Bishop and Archbishop Fisher have said that participating in a Mass this way is fully valid. I miss Communion very much, but spiritual Communion was normal Church practice well into the 17th century with physical Communion annually at Easter.

    Our priest noted that this is a fairly heavy Cross, we simply bear it as is our duty.

    Available is everything from Extraordinary Form Latin Mass from Lewisham (https://www.facebook.com/MaternalHeart/live/) to ALL the Masses from St Mary’s Cathedral (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZxfrykD8iSWExFBdM7fpRg/videos)

    ALL are fully valid participatory Masses.

    I am working from home, which I dislike. A silver lining is daily Mass attendance.

  46. Linden

    The chorus line from the ABC is that they should be the arbiters of who is guilty and who is not, based on the collective outrage and emotions of self righteous followers of the ABC. Never minds facts.

  47. dover_beach

    I see the scum and lees are still angry today, good!

  48. Des Deskperson

    ‘I think I read Ferguson-Jones is releasing a book based on their recently televised hatchet job “Revelation”, appropriately, published by Hachette.’

    My understanding is that Milligan took leave from the ABC to write her book which was published, IIRC, by MUP. The extent to which she received some sort of taxpayer funded assistance doing that period remains intriguing. As an ABC star, she would certainly have had remote access to ABC files. This may or may not have been disabled while she was on leave.

    While I am not an expert in intellectual property, my understanding is that if Ferguson made her, err, documentary as part of her duties as a ABC employee, then she wouldn’t be entitled to any further monies from the book. The intellectual property rights would remain with her employer. I was once co-author of an official history of an APS agency that had modest commercial sales from which I received not a cent.

    On the other hand, the book is not being published by the ABC but by a commercial publisher. This would seem strongly to suggest that the documentary was made separately by a private production company – in which Ferguson, and maybe ‘Stanley’, presumably have a financial interest – and sold to the ABC, with Ferguson/’Stanley’ retaining IP rights and flogging the book as a separate commercial enterprise.

  49. Linden

    Point is Iampeter, that it was a flawed prosecution from the start, and the Victoria Police brains trust together with the Vic Govt dept of Public Prosecutions should of seen that. The only had one shot and they wasted it. Personally I don’t believe Pell was guilty of the charges, but I think he knew of other stuff, a bit of Karma one might say. Never the less, courts don’t cement convicionst on emotions and public outrage. We have seen many horrendous crimes committed over the years, not once has a criminal responsible for any them ever been convicted on the strength of public outrage of emotional outbursts from victims or associated others. The role the ABC has attempted to play in this issue leaves it with a huge credibility gap, it must stop.

  50. Bar Beach Swimmer

    Frank Walker from National Tiles
    #3399413, posted on April 8, 2020 at 7:21 am
    I am Putrid reckons those 18 year olds who got their heads blown off in WW1 before they found the bordello weren’t real men

    +1000

  51. Linden

    If any law suits were to follow over this, who pays the ABC aka tax payer or the individual and or publisher?

  52. A real man would have done more to stamp out paedos and protect his flock
    He’s innocent of these rape charges but sure looks guilty of being an arrogant jerk
    Have a nice day everyone

  53. If there is a Hell, Their ABC and their ilk will receive first class tickets when their time comes.

  54. notafan

    I think he knew, karma.

    What sort of feelze crap is that?

    He knew, in 1996 he certainly knew, and did something about it.

    Any thing else is pure speculation specifically denied by Cardinal Pell, whom you effectively call a liar.

    He certainly admitted to recognising that Risdale was homosexual but funnily enough, Risdale didn’t brag about his conquests to Cardinal Pell who, obviously to all who recognise goodness, would have been aghast and taken decisive action.

  55. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    George Pell complainant, Witness J, says he accepts High Court appeal decision

    John Ferguson
    Associate Editor
    @fergusonjw
    16 minutes ago April 8, 2020
    No Comments

    The complainant in the George Pell sex abuse case has accepted the High Court’s decision to unanimously free the cardinal, arguing he understands the view there was a lack of evidence.

    He also has lamented the “darkness’’ he experiences and that he hoped other victims would not be deterred from coming forward.

    The complainant said he understood that the High Court was effectively ruling that the prosecution did not make out the case to the required standard of proof.

    In a two-page statement released Wednesday morning, he said that sex abuse cases required high standards of evidence to survive the rigours of the court system.

    “It is difficult in child sexual abuse matters to satisfy a criminal court that the offending has occurred beyond the reasonable doubt,” he wrote in the statement.

    “It is a very high standard to meet — a heavy burden. I understand why criminal cases must be proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

    “No-one wants to live in a society where people can be imprisoned without due and proper process.

    “This is a basic civil liberty. But the price we weigh for weighting the system in favour of the accused is that many sexual offences against children go unpunished.”

    The complainant sustained the prosecution case through the committal phase, the County Court and the Victorian Court of Appeal.

    Indeed, the prosecution built the case around his credibility, having been described by one observer as “one of the best witnesses” they had seen.

    However, the case was challenged on several levels, including the plausibility of the timing in which it was alleged to have occurred.

    The witness claimed he and another 13-year-old choirboy were assaulted in the priests’ sacristy at St Patrick’s Cathedral in 1996.

    Another alleged attack occurred against the surviving complainant in 1997. Its veracity was criticised by the minority VCA judge.

    theaustralian.com.au5:00
    George Pell complainant found to be ‘credible’ at every level of Australia’s judicial system

    The surviving complainant is represented pro bono by Dr Vivian Waller.

    The complainant said he was “okay” after the result.

    “This case does not define me. I am not the abuse I suffered as a child,” he said.

    “I am a man who came forward for my friend who, sadly, is no longer with us.

    “My journey has been long and I am relieved that it is over. I have my ups and downs. The darkness is never far away. Despite the stress of the legal process and public controversy I have tried hard to keep myself together.”

    From the Oz. Words fail me, they honestly do.

  56. P

    Inquiry into prosecution of Pell should follow High Court ruling

    Chris Friel – 5th April 2020

    “Conclusion.
    Amid the allegations that George Pell was the victim of a witch-hunt in which the police colluded with the media in ways harmful to truth and justice, a series of questions have emerged. A notable feature of the Pell case was the manner in which the story shifted, the causes of which need to be properly understood.[xx]To this end a careful inquiry of the documents, the networks, the practices, and the attitudes of the Victorian Police must be conducted. This paper offers a list that may serve as an introductory resource for those investigators wanting to lift the lid. It references some work already completed that has been undertaken with that purpose in mind.”

  57. Kneel

    “…I could make my point just fine…”

    That would make a nice change, should it ever occur.

    Your ignorance of religion, and Christianity in particular, is breathtaking in it’s scope. Should you take the time to examine the subject, you would find that the principles espoused are of great merit, regardless of the deficiencies of mere mortals apparent at times in the implementation.
    It seems that you think (if we are so generous as to assume – against all evidence – that such happens) that, for politics, one should support the right, regardless of the practicalities, but for religion, those who distort the doctrine for their own advantage are the paragon of it’s values. Yet another logic fail – hardly surprising really, you never have shown much of an aptitude for thinking outside your tiny little box, nor make any reflection on the possibility of having missed something important or got something wrong.
    Should you care to check, you will note that I did not incite nor promote violence towards your person, I was saying that the very person you were disparaging would be amongst the first to oppose such actions. In that light, it is more than a little amusing to see you call for me to be banned, while in the same post call others “snowflakes” for “over-reacting” to your deliberately provocative comments.
    Oh yes, you’re quite a piece of work, aren’t you? If you are not just a stirrer baiting the Cat up, then I truly feel sorry for you.

  58. notafan

    And a reminder to those who think this is merely about taking a side.

    Br Dowling, Br Best, Fr Risdale and convicted on the evidence and gaoled and not one Catholic saying anything in their defence because evidence.

    The defence of Cardinal Pell has always been about the ‘manufactured obscurity’

  59. calli

    A real man would have done more to stamp out paedos and protect his flock

    My understanding is that, for starters, he went about purging seminaries of practising homosexuals
    He refused the sacrament to homosexual activists who goaded him in his own cathedral
    He worked with agencies to provide compensation to victims

    I’m sure there’s always “more” any human being can do to stamp out wickedness. Just try it in the face of fierce opposition and see how you go.

  60. notafan

    The kid didn’t write that statement.

    ‘I came forward for my friend’.

    I don’t think so.

    I think his death was used opportunisticly for you to play a game.

    A game you were enthusiastically encouraged in, and your many errors smoothed away by the police and other interested parties.

  61. calli

    Your ignorance of religion, and Christianity in particular, is breathtaking in it’s scope.

    Kneel. I’ve been watching this one for months now. He is not ignorant of the tenets of Christianity. Far from it.

    He is trolling Christians. And he know which buttons to push.

  62. candy

    The mystery is still there of who this choirboy is and where.

    If he was abused by someone, who did it? And why did he come to tell so many lies.
    I don’t believe any quote in the media, as it is words he is told to say probably by Ms Milligan, it has the familiar Left type legal speak about it you hear everywhere.

    He may never have been abused at all, except by someone not a priest.
    His parents in all probability know the truth. And probably Ms Milligan.

  63. notafan

    That is true calli.

    As rector of the seminary, when presented with resignations en masse for insisting on horrendous changes such as daily mass, he happily accepted them and got rid of the entire cabal.

    And he refused Communion to the rainbow sashers.

  64. Gyro Cadiz

    Yea he’s a real man. I mean, he’s never had a job, never made a living engaging in rational productive activity.

    You reveal genuinely pitiful ignorance; the pastoral work of the Church, literally the greatest charitable organisation in human history, is entirely unknown to you. You are entirely ignorant of the fact that the Church was the ONLY major social assistance and charity organisation in Europe from the 5th century to the 18th century. Wow.

    Due to his religious beliefs he has a completely perverse view of sex, so he’s never been in love, started a family, or even had so much as a fling. Likely he’s never even had sex.

    You reveal unbounded ignorance of love. Love is not sex and has relatively little to do with sex. There are four sorts of love in this order of general importance:
    Ἀγάπη (Agapé)
    Φιλία (Filíos)
    Στοργή (Storgé)
    ἔρως (Eros)

    Only the latter MAY have a sexual component, it certainly does not have to. Read CS Lewis’, The Four Loves. (No, it is not a picture-book but try hard and you will understand it. No, a cartoon version is not available.)

    These categories have only been common knowledge for 2,400 years since Plato defined them. Illiterate medieval peasants knew this! You just publicly admitted to being less well educated than they were.

    What a man!

    Yes, he is, and far more so than you have shown yourself to be. He’s devoted his life to helping others and for 26 years has been actively persecuted by pitifully ignorant people as you have revealed yourself to be, a corrupt Victorian governance system and the vile disgrace of an excuse for a national media organisation. And he’s emerged, his innocence entirely vindicated, and still full of Grace.

    How long would you survive that sort of vicious persecution?

    Not like those wimps that deal with reality honestly, that engage in rational and productive activity, producing all the wealth and prosperity we enjoy.

    Which is based on the scientific flowering of the Renaissance, which was based in turn on both the active support of the Church and the ocean of ancient scientific information it deliberately preserved from the fall of the Western Empire until the 15th century.

    Once again, you demonstrate pitiful ignorance, you did not know that, did you?

    Men that have healthy sex lives and loving, fulfilling relationships with other people, starting families and raising more men who will keep living fully and prosperously. No, these aren’t real men.

    Oh yes we are. Once again you flaunt your ignorance and pitiful education. Please demonstrate, in logical form, how your statement above flows from your former statements. Oh, you cannot? You have never been educated in the science of logic?

    It really, really shows.

    No, it’s the guy who in his twilight years has less achievements under his belt than lifelong welfare recipients that is the real man.

    Apparently the only thing you regard as “an achievement” is sex. What a small, tatty little thing you have shown yourself to be.

    You do not have to be like that. Start by reading Plato. You have 2,400 years of education to catch up on.

  65. Linden

    You missed the fine print, ‘one might say’. Risdale’s conquests as you refer were the most despicable acts of pure bastary against many a vulnerable child and country farm families. To call them conquests, is pathetic.

  66. Kneel

    I’ve been watching this one for months now. He is not ignorant of the tenets of Christianity. Far from it.

    Quite so Calli – I agree. He is aware of them (therefore, not ignorant of them), but has not taken the time to study them in depth, so is ignorant of the consequences that spring from them.
    The issue has ever been the same, in both politics and religion – he has no understanding of the deeper issues, believes that the theoretical trumps the practical, is impervious to the insights of others regardless of their merits, and is materialistic to a fault. Hardly a set of attributes that is capable of a persuasive argument, or any argument at all really.

  67. notafan

    No Linden.

    I referred to what Risdale had done, in the manner he would have seen them, not in the light of what they actually were, which ought to be self evident.

    But you needed something to beat me around the head with didn’t you?

  68. Tim Neilson

    Iamashiteater, we all know that you are an unemployable hopeless failure in life.

    So your sneering at Cardinal Pell’s career provokes only thoroughly justified ridicule and contempt.

  69. Gyro Cadiz

    Ryan, it’s actually sad. I feel very sorry for Iampeter, even his term (?? what’s a nom de plume called on the boards?) is a sad little effort to insult Saint Peter.

    What sort of man wallows in ignorance like this?

    XY carrier indeed! And that’s sad, and kind of pathetic. It’s a deliberate waste of so much human potential. We would feel compassion for someone who has been forcibly limited in that way as that’s a definition of slavery.

    Yet this is voluntary, self-imposed, and I think it speaks to an overweening pride. And that’s the most dangerous of deadly sins.

  70. min

    I would think that I would one of the few people on this site who has actually trained in Sexual Deviancy which Idid to better understand what had happened to the many victims of sexual abuse that I counselled .
    Years before Gillard attacked the institutions , from memory a victims of Crime counselling service was set up and it was during this period those who had been abused came forward . Mostly women and not too many men back then however this may be explained by the research on prisoners back then
    It found 90 plus % of women prisoners had been abused and virtually no male prisoners. So a different question was put to the males At what age did you have your first sexual experience ? cannot remember exact wording and the majority answered 7 to 8 yeras old,
    Now the next issue when those in the media keep talking about rampant sexual abuse in certain institutions. I saw many many people and the perpetrators were fathers , uncles , family friends mothers’ boyfriends , coaches the closest to an institutional abuser was a man who was a used by a worker in a Salvation Army Boys’ Home.
    One of the things about perpetrators is they will go where they are in positions of trust with access to victims so that is why many enter institutions or Scouts etc .
    I think the research shows that abuse mainly done by relatives and friends.

  71. notafan

    It does min

    Overwhelmingly.

  72. notafan

    Enjoying your contributions too gyro

  73. min

    PS to former post homosexuality was still a crime back in the 80s and often wrongly linked to paedophilia.
    It was still in DSM 111 as a sexual deviancy

  74. a happy little debunker

    Hence the triggered, unhinged and absolutely inappropriate response

    You have been spanked so many times on this platform it is apparent that self reflection is not in your suite of skills, instead you continually seek affirmation of your own worth by the vitriol you can attract.
    Sad, just very sad!

  75. FelixKruell

    Min:

    Now the next issue when those in the media keep talking about rampant sexual abuse in certain institutions. I saw many many people and the perpetrators were fathers , uncles , family friends mothers’ boyfriends , coaches the closest to an institutional abuser was a man who was a used by a worker in a Salvation Army Boys’ Home.

    That’s why the royal commission focused on the institutional RESPONSE to child sexual abuse. It wasn’t about who was doing the abusing, but who was doing the enabling and the covering up. That is where the churches (and plenty of secular institutions) failed dismally. That’s where Pell failed too. Too little, and way too late.

  76. FelixKruell

    Tim:

    Iamashiteater, we all know that you are an unemployable hopeless failure in life.

    He’s right though. The first hint of an argument you don’t agree with, and you all go feral with personal abuse. Hardly the actions of people secure in their opinions or standing in life.

  77. JC

    Yes he is right, felicity. You’re a loser.

  78. Infidel Tiger

    “However, I did hear a great cheer from somewhere within the jail and then the three other inmates near me made it clear they were delighted for me.”

    This speaks volumes for the man.

    Rockspiders are reviled in prison and usually bleed out in the showers with a toothbrush jammed in them.

    To be cheered, means they knew the truth.

  79. FelixKruell

    JC:

    Yes he is right, felicity. You’re a loser.

    Thanks for emphasising my point so succinctly.

  80. Tim Neilson

    Gyro Cadiz
    #3399630, posted on April 8, 2020 at 9:53 am

    A laudably charitable and wise post Gyro. It’s right to feel pity for him.

    However it would be quite wrong for that pity to result in going along with his schtick, in an attempt to boost his self esteem.

    It is clear from many things posted by Iamashiteater over many years that he is a hopelessly unemployable failure in life.

    Like many such people he seethes with frustration and impotent fury that he doesn’t get the high status and adulatory recognition which, for some reason, he regards as his due.

    His way of compensating is to strut on to this site, sneer at other commenters, and bask in self-adulation over his own facile, absolutist dogmatic generalisations about “politics”.

    He thinks that we all should respond by saying “oh that’s so insightful Iamashiteater, you must be incredibly knowledgeable and perceptive”. That might give him a dopamine hit, but in the long run it’s dangerous.

    The vast chasm between his delusional self image and the abject reality can only get wider and wider unless he faces up to the truth about himself. If he doesn’t face up to the truth, the only end point is utter clinical psychosis.
    And the longer it takes for him to face the truth the harder that day of reckoning will be, and the more likely it is that he will have to go through a complete breakdown before starting on the path of mental restoration.

    Our real moral duty is to confront him as bluntly as possible with the truth about his stupid facile ignorant logic-fail bloviations.

    True, sometimes he seems to take pride in his self-perceived martyrdom at the hands of his critics, and that’s not helpful, but every now and then it gets through to him that the ridicule and contempt with which he’s treated is totally justified, and he throws a toddler tantrum or slinks off. Those are the moments we need to aim for to help him along his painful journey towards mental competence.

  81. Tim Neilson

    He’s right though. The first hint of an argument you don’t agree with, and you all go feral with personal abuse. Hardly the actions of people secure in their opinions or standing in life.

    You obviously haven’t read the many threads where Iamashiteater has been gutted, filleted, fried, consumed and shat out with sheer logic.

    Not that that’s hard.

    Also, I think it’s, shall we say, “inaccurate” to claim that people who have argued with you thread after thread in relation to Pell are going for personal abuse at “the first hint of an argument”.

  82. FelixKruell

    Tim:

    You obviously haven’t read the many threads where Iamashiteater has been gutted, filleted, fried, consumed and shat out with sheer logic.

    I must keep missing those. Every single time.

    Also, I think it’s, shall we say, “inaccurate” to claim that people who have argued with you thread after thread in relation to Pell are going for personal abuse at “the first hint of an argument”.

    The personal abuse usually starts in the very first post. This thread. Yesterday’s thread. Every thread. Maybe some introspection is called for?

  83. Gyro Cadiz

    Tim Neilson
    #3399697, posted on April 8, 2020 at 10:33 am
    Our real moral duty is to confront him as bluntly as possible with the truth about his stupid facile ignorant logic-fail bloviations.

    I agree with what you say, and especially with the bit above. It is a moral duty, so ill-will is not appropriate. I bear him none.

    From what you say, he is consumed by pride, which has generated anger, envy and perhaps covetousness (that’s arguable). Pride is the easiest of the deadly sins to trap yourself in to and the hardest to escape. Secularism is in itself a form of pride. The countervailing virtue to cultivate is humility. And that is very hard.

    How so very human is pride.

    I speak from personal experience. It was not until someone I love (Ἀγάπη, Φιλία, Στοργή, and ἔρως) pointed out to me how pride filled I was that I realised what I had done to myself. It’s a long road back from that and I am still travelling it. I hope he and the other pride-filled persons here can walk a similar road.

    He’s far from alone.

  84. Iampeter

    Point is Iampeter, that it was a flawed prosecution from the start, and the Victoria Police brains trust together with the Vic Govt dept of Public Prosecutions should of seen that. The only had one shot and they wasted it.

    I agree it was a flawed prosecution, specifically because the rule changes that have made it possible to put someone behind bars with nothing more than a single testimony go against the principles of an objective legal system.
    But that’s not the reason Pell supporters think it was a flawed prosecution. They only care because Pell is part of their tribe and they’d happily get a corrupt outcome and burn our legal system to the ground if it meant winning this one case. They’ve demonstrated no principles, no regard for the rule of law and no regard for long-term consequences.
    They’ve behaved like your typical leftists playing identity politics only with even less self awareness.
    In other words, Pell supporters have just as little credibility as the ABC.
    They are basically the same type of people.

  85. old bloke

    Cardinal Pell was a life long campaigner against child abuse in his church. Before he was elevated to Archbishop, he fought against the church’s hierarchy to remove the occasional crooked priests. There is nothing in that man’s character which would give anyone any reason to doubt his innocence.

    Cardinal Pell was known to have recommended to parents of abused children that they go to the police to report the matter. If the ABC was to do a proper investigation, why aren’t they investigating the Victorian police, and their apparent disinterest in investigating parental concerns.

  86. Iampeter

    “…I could make my point just fine…”
    That would make a nice change, should it ever occur.

    It did. That’s why you reacted the way you did.
    No amount of evasion, projection and confused babble from you is going to change anything.

    You reveal genuinely pitiful ignorance; the pastoral work of the Church, literally the greatest charitable organisation in human history

    The church is one the most murderous organizations in human history, but even the “charity” they do in more modern times is nothing of the sort. They provide handouts, trapping people in poverty like any welfare program and all in exchange for accepting their irrational beliefs. It’s just evil. All the more so because of how you’re trying to paint it.

    Only the latter MAY have a sexual component, it certainly does not have to. Read CS Lewis’, The Four Loves.

    What on earth…?
    I guess that’s the best anyone can manage trying to suggest the organization responsible for spreading the idea of sex being evil because it’s hatred of life on this earth, is actually all about love.

    Which is based on the scientific flowering of the Renaissance, which was based in turn on both the active support of the Church and the ocean of ancient scientific information it deliberately preserved from the fall of the Western Empire until the 15th century

    Sure. But those who are not dishonest know that Christianity is responsible for the Dark Ages, derailing our civilization for a thousand years and then fought our climb out of that dark period every step of the way and continues to do so today.
    Just look at the modern attempts by Catholics to oppose pain medication and more recently stem cell research. This is the stuff of pure evil.

    Apparently the only thing you regard as “an achievement” is sex. What a small, tatty little thing you have shown yourself to be.

    Except I mentioned many, many things, not just sex. But that’s what you and others here have predictably become stuck on because you hate it as a result of your religious hatred of life on this earth.

    I do so love Christians spouting obvious lies and historical revisionism in a pious and righteous tone.
    It only makes their dishonesty so much worse.

  87. Fisky

    This speaks volumes for the man.

    Rockspiders are reviled in prison and usually bleed out in the showers with a toothbrush jammed in them.

    To be cheered, means they knew the truth.

    Good pick up IT. The only people who believed Pell’s guilt are those whose careers depend on the Narrative.

  88. Iampeter

    Kneel. I’ve been watching this one for months now. He is not ignorant of the tenets of Christianity. Far from it.

    He is trolling Christians. And he know which buttons to push.

    If you understand enough to write the first sentence then you know the second sentence isn’t true so why write it?
    But I guess someone who is trying to conflate pedophilia with homosexuality doesn’t really hold honesty as a virtue. Honesty is of course the first casualty of religious belief.

    The personal abuse usually starts in the very first post. This thread. Yesterday’s thread. Every thread. Maybe some introspection is called for?

    What makes it even funnier is the ones throwing the abuse are also the loudest to cry when they get it thrown right back at them. They’ve even called for people to be banned.
    If these people were capable of any introspection they would never log in to anything online again just from the sheer shame they would feel.

  89. calli

    If you understand enough to write the first sentence then you know the second sentence isn’t true so why write it?

    Learn to read, troll.

    The first sentence is one word.

    The second sentence is the truth. I have been watching you.

    The third sentence – if it isn’t true and you know nothing of Christianity, why comment on something you know nothing about?

    There was no conflation of homosexuality and child abuse in my comment. I stated three things that Pell did when a comment was made that he did nothing. Two of those things concerned homosexuals in the church.

  90. stackja

    calli
    #3399892, posted on April 8, 2020 at 11:43 am

    Why bother with petering out?
    I just scroll on by.

  91. Fair Shake

    Is Pell Victoria’s Mandela (sans corruption) ?

  92. Tim Neilson

    I must keep missing those. Every single time.

    Perhaps.

    Or perhaps you just don’t understand what’s being said.

  93. Iampeter

    The third sentence – if it isn’t true and you know nothing of Christianity, why comment on something you know nothing about?

    You’ve already conceded that’s not the issue but then concluded I must be trolling.
    This is a contradiction.

    Pointing out your glaring contradiction is not an act of trolling you.

  94. Kneel

    “Why bother with petering out?”

    He has his god – logic. He has reified logic, and any who do not follow his faith to its ultimate conclusion, regardless of reason, are fools to be derided. Oddly, he sees no need to belittle himself for such an uninformed belief, but is more than happy to ridicule what he declares are unfounded beliefs in others.
    Logic is useful tool, but it is not all there is. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, and Peter hits every nail he sees.
    He is impervious to reasonable propositions that fly against his assumptions, and engages in bad faith – not here to make a case and argue the merits, but simply to state his opinion as ultimate truth and entertain no counter-point.
    As I’ve said before, he’s logical but not reasonable – a distinction he doesn’t even see, let alone understand.

  95. FelixKruell

    Tim:

    Or perhaps you just don’t understand what’s being said.

    I must be missing the logical argument embedded in ‘turd’ and ‘troll’ and ‘cretin’ and ‘turdball’ etc.

  96. Gyro Cadiz

    You reveal genuinely pitiful ignorance; the pastoral work of the Church, literally the greatest charitable organisation in human history

    The church is one the most murderous organizations in human history,

    Prove it. Then compare it to secular government actions in the 20th century ALONE.

    but even the “charity” they do in more modern times is nothing of the sort. They provide handouts, trapping people in poverty like any welfare program and all in exchange for accepting their irrational beliefs.

    Demonstrable lie.
    See a very basic primer here: A HISTORY OF CHARITY AND THE CHURCH Nicholas Placido (https://www.nacsw.org/Convention/PlacidoNAHistoryFINAL.pdf)

    It’s just evil.

    For most of the last two millennia, charity has meant aiding the sick, feeding the starving, helping the poverty-stricken, educating children and comforting the dying.

    You say that doing the above is evil.

    Your statement is a lie, “All the more so because of how you’re trying to paint it.””

    Only the latter MAY have a sexual component, it certainly does not have to. Read CS Lewis’, The Four Loves.

    What on earth…?

    This is an open admission of your ignorance.

    I guess that’s the best anyone can manage trying to suggest the organization responsible for spreading the idea of sex being evil because it’s hatred of life on this earth, is actually all about love.

    Oh dear. I do not think it is possible for a human being to be more wrong than you are here. Look at Humanae Vitae (http://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html)
    Sex is among the greatest of God’s gifts within the four natures of love (Ἀγάπη, Φιλία, Στοργή, and ἔρως). it is dismally ignorant secularists who have cheapened it into just another bodily function.

    Which is based on the scientific flowering of the Renaissance, which was based in turn on both the active support of the Church and the ocean of ancient scientific information it deliberately preserved from the fall of the Western Empire until the 15th century

    Sure. But those who are not dishonest know that Christianity is responsible for the Dark Ages, derailing our civilization for a thousand years and then fought our climb out of that dark period every step of the way and continues to do so today.

    Demonstrably wrong. Once again you publicly display pitiful ignorance and lack of education. The start of the so-called Dark Ages (which were not that dark in fact) began in AD 476, when Odoacer deposed Emperor Romulus. The Roman Empire had been declining but when Rome was sacked in chaos and ruin, the economy and then the population crashed as a chain of unstoppable events commenced. The road network, trade, port systems, credit and finance systems all collapsed. The only remaining safe environment for learning, philosophy and science was in fortified monasteries, nobody else was left to keep up the Great Conversation or make scientific discoveries. What they could and did do was recognise this and preserve what they could in the monastic libraries. All of this, and oh-so-much more, can easily be found in: “The Oxford Dictionary of the Middle Ages is an essential new reference work covering all key aspects of European history, society, and culture from 500 to 1500 A.D., as well as the Byzantine Empire, Islamic dynasties, and Asiatic peoples of the era. It is designed both for medievalists, who need a detailed and reliable reference tool, and for students and general readers seeking an accessible guide to the period. Over 800 scholars have assembled thousands of comprehensive entries, lavishly supplemented by hundreds of illustrations and dozens of maps.

    Add this to Plato should you wish to educate yourself.

    You are, and you have made it obvious that you are, completely ignorant of history.

    Just look at the modern attempts by Catholics to oppose pain medication and more recently stem cell research.

    Embryonic stem cell research starts with the murder of a human life. Murdering babies is morally indefensible. Church opposition to such murder led to fetal blood (from cord and placenta) stem cell collection post partum. I know of no opposition to this and there is certainly none to adult stem cell harvest and use.

    ……. you have no idea what a stem cell is, do you?

    So you have now reduced yourself to wanting to murder babies. Murder is an act of evil.
    Also, as you have noticed, nobody appears willing to take the unreferenced word of someone who has repeatedly proven themselves to be as dishonest, ignorant and uneducated as you through your own words. Where has the Church opposed the relief of pain?

    I think you have confused the words anaesthesia with euthanasia, a fancy secularist word for murder.

    What you say is “… the stuff of pure evil.”

    Apparently the only thing you regard as “an achievement” is sex. What a small, tatty little thing you have shown yourself to be.

    Except I mentioned many, many things, not just sex.

    No, you have not. You have made utterly unsubstantiated general statements with no shred of proof, and you have deliberately lied. You have extolled evil acts like murder and deliberate injustice.

    But that’s what you and others here have predictably become stuck on because you hate it as a result of your religious hatred of life on this earth.

    That’s so pitiful as to be actually funny. Read Humanae Vitae to see why I find you so amusing.

    I do so love Christians spouting obvious lies and historical revisionism in a pious and righteous tone.
    It only makes their dishonesty so much worse.

    Yet, you are the one displaying a complete ignorance of history (I am an historian by formal qualification) and I am taking deliberate pains to be very civil towards you. So again you are being openly dishonest , stating that common civility is being righteous. That’s (again) simply pitiful.

  97. Iampeter

    As I’ve said before, he’s logical but not reasonable – a distinction he doesn’t even see, let alone understand.

    It’s precisely because I’m being logical that you find me unreasonable. You have not gone to the effort to learn anything and can’t even string two thoughts together without completely contradicting yourself.
    But you still want to lecture those that have and do with a condescending tone.
    Unfortunately for you I’m not indulging your pretensions.

  98. Gyro Cadiz

    Enough time has been expended here by me today in writing posts to and being civil to this gentleman.

    I have higher priority tasks to attend to.

  99. Iampeter

    Prove it. Then compare it to secular government actions in the 20th century ALONE.

    Prove what? Will I also need to prove that the holocaust happened?
    And the actions of the 20th century were a consequence of Christianity, not secular governments.
    If you believe an innocent man should dying for the sins of others is moral then authoritarianism, death camps and gulags is what you’re going to get when this morality gets taken to it’s logical conclusion.
    None of the 20th centuries atrocities would’ve happened if not for Christianity so those are also to be added to it’s body count.

    And reading the rest of your post, from holocaust-denial levels of historical revisionism in trying to pretend the Dark Ages didn’t happened, through to the lunatic suggestion that stem cell research begins with murdering anyone, I see you are on the Owen Benjamin level.

    Sorry, but a civil tone does not give you license to spout ignorant and evil nonsense and I’m not going to indulge you either.

  100. Tim Neilson

    Iampeter
    #3400101, posted on April 8, 2020 at 1:16 pm

    Iamashiteater.

    I understand that you’re to all intents and purposes unemployable.

    But if you devoted a tenth of the effort to finding and holding down a low-level job that you devote to emotionally incontinent meltdowns when someone corrects your errors, you might actually make a contribution to society, albeit a small one.

  101. Kneel

    “It’s precisely because I’m being logical that you find me unreasonable.”

    No.

    Let me attempt to explain further using the current WuFlu epidemic.

    If we take the implicit (and often explicit) assertion that all human life is infinitely more valuable than the economy – that is, “if it saves one life, it’s worth it” – at face value, then it is quite logical to insist that everyone is locked down until such time as we have a cure or significant treatment, regardless of how long that may be, if ever. However, given the rather intimate relationship between the economy and human well being, this is not reasonable – it is not reasonable to bankrupt 90% of businesses and increase public debt by 10 times annual GDP to save one 80 year old from dying from this virus now instead of next years flu, when such actions will in all likelyhood result in financial ruin, suicide, murder, theft and so on, with a huge ultimate cost to society. Nor does it consider the price of freedom – many millions have died in many wars to obtain and/or keep their freedom, and this “solution” places what many see as intolerable limitations on their freedom. Yet a “successful” outcome is impossible if it is not viewed by most of society as reasonable. Therefore, such a strategy will ultimately fail to achieve it’s desired outcome – very predictable if one is reasonable, unintelligible if one is not and relies solely on logic.

    As can be seen by the contents of many of your posts, you are logical but not reasonable – and so you fail to convince most of the value of your cogitations. No doubt your repeated and arrogant assertions that anyone who does not agree with you is an ignorant fool doesn’t help in this regard either, and neither does your failure to concede when warranted.

  102. Vicki

    That Cardinal Pell spent his unfortunate time in prison in reflection and prayer is what I would have expected.

    Wrongful imprisonment is a terrible thing – but a man who has devoted his whole life to God would surely have sought his presence and be comforted by it.

  103. WDYSIA

    The cheers may have been his legal team waiting in another part of the building to see him after the judgement was handed down. Cute that his fellow inmates let him know they were also pleased. They probably banged on the doors or something. Pell communicating in prison code.

  104. Kneel

    “And the actions of the 20th century were a consequence of Christianity, not secular governments.”

    Yes, of course – communist regimes always spout Christian values and are never purely secular.
    Oh wait…

  105. Gyro Cadiz

    Swinging by quickly, I see that Iampeter has no response except ad hominem and screeching about anyone not concurring with his ignorance as being “evil”.

    Sad and pitiful. No effort to address his ignorance.

    Invincible ignorance self-believed to be invincible rectitude marks a man fallen into the sin of pride.

  106. WDYSIA

    Are the cases presided over by the two Labor-appointed Appeal Court Judges being scrutinised for any other instances of the imprisonment of innocent men?

    If not, why not?

    Those two were tax and commerce specialists I think. In any case, Maxwell was involved with Liberty Victoria for many years – LV being activist and generally hostile to conservative Christians.

  107. Gyro Cadiz

    If you believe an innocent man should dying for the sins of others is moral then authoritarianism, death camps and gulags is what you’re going to get when this morality gets taken to it’s logical conclusion.

    This is grammatically incorrect and so unintelligible as to be senseless.

    Does anyone know what he’s trying to say? You have more experience with his peculiar gibberish than I do

  108. Tim Neilson

    As can be seen by the contents of many of your posts, you are logical but not reasonable

    Actually Kneel, Iamashiteater’s grasp of logic is negligible, despite his tendency to wear the terminology of logic (“contradiction”, etc.) as a fashion statement.

    Liked your explanation of “logic” and “reason” though.

  109. Iampeter

    Swinging by quickly, I see that Iampeter has no response except ad hominem and screeching about anyone not concurring with his ignorance as being “evil”.

    I don’t think you know what “ad hominem” means.

    This is grammatically incorrect and so unintelligible as to be senseless.

    Shameless evasion from someone who believes stem cell research involves murder or something.
    Who would’ve thought?
    Good thing I didn’t bother wasting time going into more detail with someone like you.

    Invincible ignorance self-believed to be invincible rectitude marks a man fallen into the sin of pride.

    Pride isn’t a sin to moral people and the bit about “invincible ignorance” is just projection.

    Let me attempt to explain further using the current WuFlu epidemic…

    Please god, no! Make it stop! Kneel trying to explain something is like gazing into hell itself!

  110. Iampeter

    As can be seen by the contents of many of your posts, you are logical but not reasonable – and so you fail to convince most of the value of your cogitations.

    You’re not here to be convinced of anything.
    You and many are here to shake your tail feathers in front of equally vapid and ignorant people and make it appear like you’re interested in these topics.
    Instead of, you know, actually having any interest in these topics and going to even the slightest effort to learn anything.

    All you do is basically follow me from thread to thread babbling and lecturing me. You have nothing to say on any actual topic of discussion. In this way you’re actually much worse than fools like Tim, JC, Fisky, et al…

  111. Tim Neilson

    Gyro Cadiz
    #3400170, posted on April 8, 2020 at 2:09 pm

    He is displaying his utter ignorance of Christian doctrine.

    He seems to think that someone voluntarily giving his life for the benefit of others is the moral equivalent of “death camps and gulags”.

    Reasoning with him rarely does any good. He can’t actually think logically at all. He just throws around the terminology of logic, and always in ways which show he’s got no idea how to apply the concepts properly.

    For example, one time he was bloviating about the meaning of “publisher” in defamation law. I quoted a statute, an Explanatory Memorandum and a High Court judgement to show he was wrong. He sneered at me for “arguing from authority”.

    Yes, he really is that conceited, stupid and ignorant.

    It’s going to be hard work, but hopefully one day we’ll save him from himself and get him to develop an iota of self-awareness.

  112. Gyro Cadiz

    Oh, my. This is like one of those small kid’s toys, a silly little round-bottomed thing that pops back up when pushed.

    You provide nothing but unsupported and profoundly ignorant nonsense, then beg strangers to educate you. You lie about what people say: someone who believes stem cell research involves murder

    You lie about that.
    I said that embryonic stem cell research requires the death of the baby – the embryonic human being. That is, by definition, murdering the baby involved. There are no moral objections in the Catholic Church to adult stem cell research or to fetal stem cell research using stem cells harvested from the placenta and umbilical cord. Quite the opposite.

    To educate you about a Latin phrase, Ad hominem is Latin, and means ‘to the person’. In English, it is an adjective and describes the fallacy in logic of attacking a person’s character or motivations rather than a position or argument.

    Which is all you can, apparently, do.

    Pride isn’t a sin to moral people

    You have no discernible moral framework you live your life to, and patently do not understand what ‘pride’actually is.

    and the bit about “invincible ignorance” is just projection.

    You don’t know what it means, do you?

    I have a great deal of pity for you, that you revel so in ignorance.

  113. Gyro Cadiz

    Tim: He seems to think that someone voluntarily giving his life for the benefit of others is the moral equivalent of “death camps and gulags”.

    So he’s trying to say that the Sacrifice of Jesus is the equivalent to the murderous proclivities of left-wing socialists and secularists like Mao, Hitler and Stalin?

    That’s actually quite disgusting. It reveals him to be both an amoral monster and an atheist – no surprise there – it’s the bottomless depths of his ignorance and inability to learn, and lack of empathy which surprise me. Those, by the way, were recruitment criteria for Einsatztruppen; amorality, pride, atheism and lack of empathy. He’s keeping hideous company.

  114. David Brewer

    @notafan:

    and your [the complainant’s] many errors smoothed away by the police and other interested parties

    Quite. The “training” of the complainant was vital to getting this case through the Victorian courts. Friel:

    In general, the case is marked by changes in the story whereby what the complainant alleged altered according to a process of “trial and error,” seemingly as a result of what the police discovered. These include the fact that Pell joined a procession immediately after Mass, that he had his own sacristy, and significantly, that there was no kitchenette in the storage area immediately to the left of the door (which is where Reed told Pell that the boys found wine and also where the crimes began).

    In particular, the story would shift in a significant way after the police spoke to Portelli and Potter. From their statements in December 2016 it would have dawned on the police that the complainant had actually located wine in what was a wardrobe at the time. Thus, the police would have become aware that the complainant was describing the recent sacristy and that his recollections were not contemporaneous. As a result, further inquiries would or should have been discussed if not implemented, re-interviewing the complainant, for example. What tasks emerged as a result of the police discoveries?

    One of many reasons why a full inquiry is required. Andrews, it’s time to get your fingers out of your ears and your thumb out of your bum!

  115. Iampeter

    Oh, my. This is like one of those small kid’s toys, a silly little round-bottomed thing that pops back up when pushed.

    You provide nothing but unsupported and profoundly ignorant nonsense, then beg strangers to educate you.

    So…more projection?

    You lie about what people say: someone who believes stem cell research involves murder
    You lie about that.
    I said that embryonic stem cell research requires the death of the baby – the embryonic human being.

    So I lied about what? The exact words you used to say exactly the same thing?

    If all you’re going to do is project and play semantics there’s really no point.

    So he’s trying to say that the Sacrifice of Jesus is the equivalent to the murderous proclivities of left-wing socialists and secularists like Mao, Hitler and Stalin?

    Socialism is a re-branding of Christianity. Whether you’re a Christian mystic that wants to sacrifice individuals or a secular version of the same thing is hardly important.
    You need to learn to think in terms of fundamentals.
    But when you’ve started with a conclusion that you’re rationalizing then there’s bigger problems to sort out first anyway.

  116. Posts like this are why Catallaxy Files is a mandatory daily visit.
    Thanks.

  117. Socialism (as progressivism) is in part a rebranding of some aspects of late 18th century American Protestant Christianity.

    Catholicism was conservative leaning towards authoritarianism with some libertarian scholarship.

    The infiltration of Marxists in the 1950s and beyond does not mean the idea is Marxist, let alone socialist.

  118. Prisoners can call out to each other, there aren’t guards at the ready to beat them.

  119. Kneel

    Actually Kneel, Iamashiteater’s grasp of logic is negligible,…

    The logic is usually fine, it’s the premises and exclusions that are, err… dodgy.
    For instance, on abortion, he is saying “it’s not murder because you aren’t a person until you are born”, yet the definition he relies on (not being a person until birth) is simply a pre-defined line not based on capabilities, some sort of test or anything else that is an objective way to define what “independent individual” is, it’s just a line defined at an easily observed and well defined event, and as such could easily be moved to conception. If this happened, (the law changed) then his support would, of necessity, change to opposition – for the exact same event!
    To paraphrase the old physics joke, he’s assuming a spherical cow…

  120. Roger

    But when you’ve started with a conclusion that you’re rationalizing then there’s bigger problems to sort out first anyway.

    Physician, heal thyself.

  121. Iampeter

    The logic is usually fine, it’s the premises and exclusions that are, err… dodgy.

    You couldn’t even go one sentence without contradicting yourself.
    Pro-tip: if you have a contradiction don’t press “post comment.” Resolve the contradiction first.

    The rest of your post is completely wrong on every single sentence and I’m not bothering to go down that rabbit hole with someone as dishonest as you.

  122. David Brewer

    Chris Friel now has another post on the Pell case (“Concealed in the HCA”, on Academia). Interesting stuff, but I think he has missed something about the supposed “corroboration” of the complainant’s story through the fact that he could describe the room in which it happened. Friel reports that in the High Court trial:

    Kerri Judd…stressed…that since the area was generally out of bounds the complainant would not …have had the chance to be in the room at any other time…it would appear [that the High Court] are sceptical of the response from the defence, namely, that maybe the complainant got his knowledge from a tour

    The point is, the complainant didn’t just have one tour; he also admitted to exploring the out-of-bounds areas of the Cathedral on other occasions, as reported by Louise Milligan herself. In her hatchet-job book Cardinal, she describes the following exchange between the complainant (“The Kid”) and the mother of the other boy:

    The Kid gently told her what he says happened with the archbishop. “He told me that himself and [my son] used to play in the back of the church in the closed-off rooms,” she says.

    In the cathedral? I ask her.

    “In the cathedral, yep…”

    used to

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