It wasn’t the flu, it was YOU

From The Australian: Morrison brings Ardern into national cabinet in trans-Tasman solidarity:

Ms Ardern will take a seat alongside Mr Morrison and the state and territory leaders at Tuesday’s meeting to discuss ways to allow a quick return to travel between the two countries and to kickstart businesses in the region that have been devastated by COVID-19.

We have not been devastated by COVID-19. We have been devastated by a stupid, panicky government without a brain in its head or any obvious sense and judgement. We could have taken the same road as Sweden. We could have done whatever it takes to protect those most at risk while leaving the rest of us out of lockup.

Whatever it was, it has come and virtually gone. It is time, without delay, to open things up. But no. YOU decided to go the whole way at a cost of $4billion per day and are still mulling it over. You are the ones responsible. If you are going to play around with this Invasion-of-Privacy App of yours, and delay the recovery, it will be YOU and no one else who is responsible. Since you can take off these restraints any time you like, it is YOU, the Liberal-National Party Coalition that is primarily responsible for the enormous harm that has been done to our lives and the economy.

And since nothing you can do, nothing you can do at all, will prevent whatever it was coming back, if you are still going to threaten us with going back into lockup, the economy will never really start up again, only those bits that can easily open and shut since no one can now trust your judgement.

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68 Responses to It wasn’t the flu, it was YOU

  1. rickw

    Politics isn’t Hollywood for the really ugly.

    It’s Hollywood for the REALLY DUMB AND UGLY

    If you we’re Scomo’s manager, he’d be the dud on your team that you’d be looking to get rid of at the first opportunity.

  2. Steve

    Please justify the “Invasion-of-Privacy App” comment. I work in IT, I understand the risks and benefits, I’ve looked at the reverse engineered code. It isn’t perfect, but I say that without justification that comment is seditious nonsense.

  3. Is Arden in Cabinet seriously a thing?

    Either we invade or she pisses off.

  4. a reader

    Arden was invited to the meeting to talk about reopening Trans-Tasman travel as a priority.

    The only positive is she’s been reduced from a head of a national government to that of a territory head of government which means she’s as important as the Chief Minister of the ACT. Take that Jacinda

  5. Spurgeon Monkfish III

    SloMao’s panicked, hysterical overreaction to this chinese chimera was entirely due to the pasting he copped from the braindead lamestream meeja over those bloody greenfilth induced bushfires.

    Therefore the economy (and society) had to be destroyed to protect his fragile worthless ego.

    Grate effort, you disgusting fascist pillocks.

  6. Bob

    The LAST thing Australia needs is to reopen borders with NZ.
    That toothy, horse-faced narcissist that NZ embarrassingly has masquerading as a “leader” only wants to create a back door around our border controls.
    Once it’s opened, the flights from Syria to New Zealand will be chockers. And you know where they’re coming next…

  7. Colonel Bunty Golightly

    Mrs Ed seems popular with leftoids around the world but much less so in NZ it seems?

  8. candy

    Don’t look too deep into it. Ms Adern is a well liked, admired lady leader.

    Inviting the lady to join the National Cabinet gives the Cabinet more prestige, even a little glamour, spices it up as the health crisis has passed over.

    It’s a look, for the camera, for good visuals. Any communication could have been done by Skype or Zoom or a phone.

  9. Gyro Cadiz

    Hmm. Not sure that Sweden’s a good model. Their per capita kark-it rate is 27 times ours on a per capita basis. Their economy does not appear to be in 27 times better state.

    That said, we do need to wind back these restrictions fast. Until there’s a vaccine, we are going to be dancing on a knife edge no matter what.

  10. yarpos

    Steve you may well work in IT, lots of people do, help desk people, project managers, sales people and actual technologists. It doesnt mean we should value your opinon more than any other. Assuming you actually understood the code , I hope you will also understand all future updates and ensure no scope creep on the app once the platform is out there and of course its eventual removal without trace as promised . Looking at the app tells to precious little about the back end where the real action and concern is, so if you dont mind I will pass on your certification of the app.

  11. min

    Lost me when he told Tehan to apologise to Andrews . Andrews now looks a power hungry know nothing who has a massive cluster in an abattoirs that apparently had a case back on 4 th April. Disaster when a part time music teacher gets it and a school closed down. Look at the different treatment a Labor donor gets. However it looks if the drivers have now got a bit antsy.

  12. Grunter

    Well said Steve.
    The point should also be made that the PM should listen to the experts but should not blindly obey them; he and the State Premiers should make up their own minds about how to move forward.
    It’s all about the new order politician who want to come out of this situation blameless because they did their level best by following the experts’ advice.

  13. Sydney Boy

    Don’t look too deep into it. Ms Adern is a well liked, admired lady leader.

    Well before she was a leader. Parallels with Obama getting the Nobel peace Prize after only 6 months in the job.

  14. billie

    jeez steve, tell us what you really think

  15. feelthebern

    I work in IT

    Selling Playstations at JB Hifi doesn’t really meet the standard we’re looking for.

  16. thefrollickingmole

    Mates first reaction was :So she can send back all the shitheads we deported as crims then?
    Think hes spot on the money.

  17. Steve

    Selling Playstations at JB Hifi doesn’t really meet the standard we’re looking for.
    Nice deflection. But my point holds, it is not an “Invasion-of-Privacy App” and I would be happy to see evidence to the contrary. And the implication that the government is intentionally using it to invade privacy is not worth commenting on.

  18. Rohan

    Steve, reverse engineered code is not the original source code. In any eevent, where is this code? For I too would like to look at it. So far that hasn’t been released.

    Here is but one argument at ZDNet that says there is a lot to be concerned with.

    Disclaimer, I too work in IT, developing and testing busines systems amongst my multitude of hats. It is not sedition to sugest that this government panicked, is in way over the heads and is leveraging tools via blackmail that could very well be used for/by an Orwellian state.

  19. Botswana O'Hooligan

    One might ask the question of, how many people who lived or grew up in the Soviet Bloc countries have downloaded this app?

  20. areff

    Until there’s a vaccine

    Don’t hold your breath, pal.

  21. Tim

    Well said steve

    We need a lot more straight talk and a lot more of holding the government to account

    It is probably time to leave lib / nat labor and greens at the bottom of the ballot tickets and send a message. The best thing that could happen at present is that no government is elected. At least this way no one can claim a mandate. With a bit of luck it may just sink in that the plebs arent happy with any of them.

    If we keep voting the same way we will keep getting the same or worse result

  22. Faye

    I think ScoMo was in tandem with President Trump. I think that President Trump was unable to NOT shut down because the Democrats and media would have torn him to pieces as the deaths came. POTUS instead made sure that those who had lost income received some help moneywise.
    During the shutdown, the useless selfish behaviour of the Democrats was on display to warn people not to vote for them in November.
    The COVID-19 episode has been illuminating. China is now exposed as untrustworthy, vicious to its people, and above all, must save face! and Party comes first! President Trump will bring manufacturing back from China to America; set up new supply chains; include partner countries – Five Eyes, Japan, India, etc plus the South American countries, Taiwan, South Korea, etc whittling down China’s hold on supply and manufacture. He’ll probably still trade with China but nothing like it was. In the end his second term will be fantastic as he brings it altogether. America will be just about self-sufficient.
    Australia should become self sufficient as well. I wish I was as sure of Australia as I am of America.
    Well that’s how I see it anyhow from bits that I have read.

  23. V

    meanwhile government is spending up big on unionsed workforces such as train drivers in Queensland who managed to deliver more services than ever before despite an 80% reduction in passengers.

    Government claims they need to provide services for the people who are working but that is just nonsense.

  24. Destroyer D69

    Any legal or legislative “protections” touted by the proponents of this app can be easily reversed. amended,increased,expanded. access granted to the local boy scout group, or any organization in the golden child of government club, with the SIMPLE application of the LEGAL process of amendment by the Legislative Instrument process,….Promises are not set in stone. ALWAYS remember “There will be no carbon tax”

  25. Beachcomber

    Referring back to an earlier post by Steve, “May you live in idiotic times”. Here’s an interesting piece of history.

    Woodstock Occurred in the Middle of a Pandemic

    In my lifetime, there was another deadly flu epidemic in the United States. The flu spread from Hong Kong to the United States, arriving December 1968 and peaking a year later. It ultimately killed 100,000 people in the U.S., mostly over the age of 65, and one million worldwide. …..

    …… The contrast between 1968 and 2020 couldn’t be more striking. They were smart. We are idiots. Or at least our governments are.

  26. Dr Faustus

    Nice deflection. But my point holds, it is not an “Invasion-of-Privacy App” and I would be happy to see evidence to the contrary.

    Clearly this is a correct statement in itself: if you voluntarily load the app onto your phone, and enable it, you are welcoming government scrutiny rather than having it rudely thrust upon you. So, QED.

    Unfortunately, you also have no idea which phone identities will be connected to you, whether there actually is any medical nexus between any of them, or what effective use the various State medical officers might make of the information they are allowed to access.

    Or, absent continual technical scrutiny, what future upgrades COVIDSafe 2.n might contain.

  27. Professor Fred Lenin

    Several serious results from the attack of the Chinese Covids ,
    We will not be giving any aid to foreign countries any more I mean we would have to borrow money to give it away and our politicians would never do that would they?
    We woukd no longer contribute fundto the UN or WHO and other branches of the UN .
    We would be borrowing money to pay the interest on the money we borrowed before .
    The following steps would correct these things .
    The GST would have a modest increase to 30 per cent and be on Everything ,
    A financial transaction will be levied on all credit and debit transactions of 10percent .
    A land tax of 40 per cent of property value will be levied annually .
    Politicians and public employees salaries would be increased to compensatde for the new taxes and levies .
    We anticipate a budget surplus by the year 2260 give or takr 100 years .

  28. Driftforge

    And since nothing you can do, nothing you can do at all, will prevent whatever it was coming back

    Come now – it’s not that hard. Close the border and you are done. If you must have transit for some reason, have proper quarantine.

    Arguably that’s a better outcome for the nation in the long run anyway.

    Its remains amusing to see how different groups have gone different directions with this. The Cat seems to be one of the few places that has gone full Monty.

    Apparently our governments providing competent coordination is anathema.

  29. Hay Stockard

    I respect your right to download the app.
    Your prerogative to be a mug as long as it doesn’t impact on me.

  30. Beachcomber

    Our “Leaders” in Australia forced us to abandon ANZAC Day gatherings and ceremonies. We timidly accepted this and were grateful that our overlords gave us permission to be seen in the driveways of our homes.

    The West’s establishment media has portrayed Belarus’ President Aleksandr Lukashenko as a Soviet-style anti-democratic scoundrel. But he shows far more decency and Reason than any of our Dear Leaders.

    Belarus’ Lukashenko: Surrendering Victory Day Parade to a Virus Is Out of the Question

    Editor’s note: In explaining his decision Lukashenko pointed out two things. Firstly, it’s voluntary. Nobody who doesn’t want to go is forced to. Secondly, where would Belarus and Belarusians be today if their forefathers had similarly panicked in the face of some virus or disease? (For that matter typhus exacted a devastating toll on Belarusian partisans.) A historic victory is nice but you have to keep being worthy of it. Even if COVID was the plague, which it is not. Some things are sacred, and some things — like honoring those who sacrificed to preserve the existence of your people — take precedent before minimizing every conceivable risk to your hide (but in fact, for the vast majority exposure is actually a good thing as it primes the immune system and builds the herd immunity).

  31. Infidel Tiger King

    Until there’s a vaccine

    There will be a vaccine about the same time you are shopping in a farmer’s market on Mars.

  32. a happy little debunker

    The ‘curve’ had been flattened by the 7th of April.
    28 days of under-reaction by the lack of political leadership.

    Are they still playing the ‘long game’ that see’s infections peak in November?

    As for Jacinta Adern – all she wants is an Australian led recovery of NZ’s tourism industry, after she totally shattered the NZ economy.
    I say that we should not allow Australians to travel there – as they are more likely to be ‘infected’ by a New Zealander than any destination in Australia (excepting specific Victorian meatworks, NSW nursing homes and Tasmanian hospitals).

  33. Infidel Tiger King

    I’m not worried in the slightest about the government tracking me.

    I’m more worried about their incompetence forcing me, my family or work colleagues to self isolate after a false positive reading or some other complete and utter stuff up our governments are famous for. Our governments are not dangerous, they are incompetent and idiotic. The less chance you give them to hurt you, the better.

  34. Tom

    Since you can take off these restraints any time you like, it is YOU, the Liberal-National Party Coalition that is primarily responsible for the enormous harm that has been done to our lives and the economy.

    Morrison’s is the most disastrously incompetent government in Australian history. Led by a clown who has never had a real job in his life, this is what you get when you have a coalition that used to believe in low taxes and limited government, but was talked out of it by the lazy, fat-arsed public service (on full pay) and every layabout tax-eating parasite in Australia, represented by the hysterical alarmists who run the Australian news media, barracking for ever bigger and more intrusive and interventionist government.

    By this time next year, we will lucky to have an economy the same size as it was in the mid-1950s.

  35. Up The Workers!

    It is good to see international relations and Foreign Affairs being normalised with the return of mutual immigration across “the Dutch”, as the sheep-frighteners call it.

    Jacinda Horseteeth will keep on exporting all her knuckle-dragging criminal classes to Australia and Peter Dutton (God Bless Him!) will keep on exporting them right back there again.

    We’ve got more than enough Socialist bludging freeloaders, parasites and good-for-nothings (both local and imported) on either the taxpayer-funded Centrelink Dole-System or on the taxpayer-funded Parliamentary Dole-System. (I’m still very suspicious about Albo, the Italian Rapscallion).

    WE don’t need any more.

    And ‘Mr.Ed’ would still like his dentures back!

  36. nfw

    So Ms Bolshevik Ardern’s presence means that New Zealand is now some sort of Australian dependency like Norfolk Island? Will she be putting her hand out for GST revenue too?
    Excellent article and comments by Mr Kates. Sums up how we non politician non public servants, that is those of us seeing our livelihoods destroyed by cowards and fools who listen to “experts” and who pander to the Karen market, feel. Had a thought about schools. As teachers are not teaching, stop paying them; that might get their attention long enough for them to demand to go back to work. After all, what are they going to do, resign and get jobs elsewhere? Yeah right.

  37. Iampeter

    We have not been devastated by COVID-19. We have been devastated by a stupid, panicky government without a brain in its head or any obvious sense and judgement.

    Yep, this virus could never have caused the damage the government response has caused.

    And since nothing you can do, nothing you can do at all, will prevent whatever it was coming back, if you are still going to threaten us with going back into lockup, the economy will never really start up again, only those bits that can easily open and shut since no one can now trust your judgement.

    Yep, which is exactly why these lockdowns made no sense to begin with.
    Now we’re all just that much poorer and that much less able to handle the outbreak which will just resume when things open up.

  38. Roger

    Don’t look too deep into it. Ms Adern is a well liked, admired lady leader.

    Funnily, she is only liked by Australians.

    The rest of the world, including her fellow NZ citizens, appear to have settled on the judgment that she’s a shameless showboater with little substance, a sort of female Justin Trudeau.

  39. Boambee John

    Roger

    sort of female Justin Trudeau.

    Known in some parts of Canadia as “Justine Trudeau”, aka leader (in a loose sense of the word) of Trudopia.

  40. duncanm

    Roger
    #3440748, posted on May 5, 2020 at 4:35 pm
    .. a sort of female Justin Trudeau.

    She’s actually a more masculine Justin Trudeau.

  41. I keep saying that Sweden is doing lots of voluntary social distancing. Half the population is working from home, foot traffic was down by over two thirds and so on.

    This social distancing is going to result in reduced production etc. Most everyone I know was moving to WFH, fewer hours, non-overlapping shifts at work, taking leave to avoid the workplace. The only person who kept on going as normal has had most future work evaporate due to fear. Maybe I’m not representative, but surveys are suggesting very few people are keen on going to sports events and concerts with large crowds etc.

    Our governments are merely exacerbating the economic situation, but it was fait accompli when a novel, fast spreading virus with potential 1-3% fatality rate emerged.

    I think you could argue the Victorian government is reducing production by keeping kids in home-school. Though the data NSW is using to re-open is pretty thin- we will know either way in a couple of weeks.

    You could argue the Vic response was disproportionate to the SA/WA/NT response but I think Vic isn’t as blessed with warmer climates and less density compared to the western part of the country.

    Right now I’m really hoping that everyone who has recovered from covid is donating their plasma and that its a nice little silver bullet even for end stage disease. Anyone at risk who tests positive gets a dose of convalescent antibodies and things can go back to normal soon.

  42. jo

    Staff at Cyber security will not download the app. From an impeccable source.

  43. Andre S

    The only thing keeping the COVID app “private” is government intent. The government immediate intent is obvious, but once the app is intertwined within the algorithms of a functioning society there is no escaping the transformatory path it will take, exploited because of its power, the future intent of “the government app” will be altered and hidden behind its original intent only transparent to those who value freedom and can manage their anxieties and fears enough to avoid the exploitative intent “the government app” will have. It is naive to think otherwise unless you are a tech stuck in a time warp.

  44. Scernus

    So: self proclaimed IT experts, explain this.
    The App only registers if you have been within 1.5 metres of another user for greater than 15 minutes via bluetooth.

    How is that of any use in an aeroplane with recycled air pumping throughout a cabin filled with smartphones on flight mode?

  45. Tel

    And since nothing you can do, nothing you can do at all, will prevent whatever it was coming back, if you are still going to threaten us with going back into lockup, the economy will never really start up again, only those bits that can easily open and shut since no one can now trust your judgement.

    Yup … our enemies understand Sovereign Risk and the damage it does to a free people and a capitalist economy. They are working this to perfection, every possible opportunity to destroy stuff is being utilized.

  46. Is Arden in Cabinet seriously a thing?
    Either we invade or she pisses off.

    Well, if we can’t vote the termagant out can you please invade, dispose of 90% of our civil service, and deport the government to Mr Trump’s lovely resort run by the marines and Guantanamo.

    We refused to join Australasia in 1901, and if we could vote we would not become the poorest state in Australia now.

    But we’d prefer to vote her out, and enjoy the tears.

  47. Dr Faustus

    So: self proclaimed IT experts, explain this.
    The App only registers if you have been within 1.5 metres of another user for greater than 15 minutes via bluetooth.

    Not so. That’s just what Stuart Robert said would happen.

    The CovidSafe app apparently records all handshakes within Bluetooth range that exceed 15 minutes – not just those within 1.5 metres. Depending on phone/transmitting conditions this will pick up all app-enabled phones within something like a 10m to 20m radius.

    If the data is uploaded, the State medical officer’s end has a stab at working out how far apart all the contacts were by using the recorded signal strength and individual phone transmission characteristics of each recorded phone. There is nothing specified in Robert’s determination about “1.5 meters”, or how far apart the phones must be for the Medical Officer to be able to use the data.

  48. Roger

    Well, if we can’t vote the termagant out can you please invade, dispose of 90% of our civil service, and deport the government to Mr Trump’s lovely resort run by the marines and Guantanamo.

    You’ve made your bed, now lie in it.

  49. Texas Jack

    ScoMo indicated in his midday press conference that it was his idea to invite Saint Jacinda into the National Cabinet discussion, which if true simply gives us more reasons to be cynical. The cabinet idea is a very clever little ploy, ushering in amply opportunity to grandstand pandemic-risks versus the “effective national response” for effect while dispersing the risk of greater community awareness of their rank stupidity across the widest possible spread of political hides. Having Ardern turn up to smile and be cheery and conform with the very-serious vibe (while agreeing to do nothing) is all nice and useful – in the original context attributed to Lenin.

    The nub? Morrison will probably get away with it all, and can probably run any time he likes on saving the planet. Albanese hasn’t had the slightest good fortune. Outside the Blogosphere and maybe Adam Creighton the media are a bunch of conforming lap dogs. The state leaders are lemming-like useful idiots who see Morrison as their useful idiot – evidence of at least temporary symbiosis. So I would bet that teeth gnashing Catallaxy Cats will be off in the naughty corner more frequently, the Blog will spend more weekends in lockdown, because none of us will be able to stand watching him get away with it all.

  50. Leo G

    The CovidSafe app apparently records all handshakes within Bluetooth range that exceed 15 minutes – not just those within 1.5 metres. Depending on phone/transmitting conditions this will pick up all app-enabled phones within something like a 10m to 20m radius.

    Bluetooth 5 sacrifices data rate for range- up to four times the range of Bluetooth 4.2, a maximum of around 250 metre. That’s for data of course, and mediated by the handshaking between devices. The inquiry signal reception doesn’t involve handshaking, so its reception range is very much greater.
    Its the inquiry signal that transmits the 48-bit organisationally unique identifier used by the COVIDSafe app.

  51. Dr Faustus

    Leo G: I don’t doubt you. I’m working off my own observations of functional/effective Bluetooth app range. I’d expect the CovidSafe app code to filter on signal strength and massively reduce ‘radio range’ – but, of course, with top-secret code, I couldn’t know.

  52. Tel

    Faustus, do some searching on low cost Bluetooth ID sniffer software and see what they can do.

    I think that gives you a better idea of the kind of range you can expect for an app that is simply pulling ID’s out of the air. Not to say that I know exactly what CovidSafe app is doing … but at least there’s well documented capabilities of what’s possible with fairly ordinary phone or laptop equipment.

  53. Squirrel

    NZ has a lot more to gain from re-opened borders than does Australia – in spite of some selective statistics which were trotted out today in an attempt to make it sound as if a nation with 5 times the population and 7 times the national income would gain about the same as its very much smaller neighbour.

    Hasten slowly with this one, “national cabinet”.

  54. Leo G

    with top-secret code, I couldn’t know.

    That’s the nub of our situation. There is no published description of how the social distance limit criterion is implemented by the app, only that it uses the Bluetooth signal without pairing and can’t determine the social distance between devices without exchange of location data.

  55. Candy:

    Inviting the lady to join the National Cabinet gives the Cabinet more prestige, even a little glamour, spices it up as the health crisis has passed over.
    It’s a look, for the camera, for good visuals. Any communication could have been done by Skype or Zoom or a phone.

    The Muslams are right about women.
    A small dab of competency would be a good thing.

  56. Dr Faustus

    Faustus, do some searching on low cost Bluetooth ID sniffer software and see what they can do.

    Interested in the system design, but Bluetooth technology is not my field. Your suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

  57. Robber Baron

    I’m over 50. I’m not good with technology. I don’t know how to download the app. Well, that’s my excuse.

  58. Rockdoctor

    Hasten slowly with this one, “national cabinet”.

    Agree, she has done nothing but have cheap pot shots at Australia on everything since she was elected from climate change to sending crims back to our illegal immigrant policy among some. The local media will fawn over her but none of that will rub off on Morrison.

    Frankly rewarding past snide behaviour will encourage more, why even entertain her?

  59. Soberinthemorning

    The problem with the app is the example it sets. This time a good cause, maybe. Next time, because some national security or cop wants to track people and so on. Never give the authoritarian state an inch.

    Watch that movie Enemy of the State, starring the magnificent Gene Hackman.

  60. Tel

    Faustus, consider something like this for example:

    http://trafficcast.com/spectrarsu/assets/BlueTOAD_SpectraRSU-Cutsheet-April18.pdf

    Shows you a small device that is clipped to a traffic light, such that it is in radio range of the road, and monitors traffic flow by scooping Bluetooth device IDs out of the vehicles as they pass underneath. You can judge the size of the device and range of the radio based on the photos in the brochure. I’m presuming you need a bunch of them to monitor travel time, congestion etc.

    Obviously that’s a specialized device, but gives you an idea of what’s possible, relatively easily.

    I found that some phones (and a small number of other devices) do change address randomly on an occasional basis as a privacy protection. Not sure of the details. At least you can see the type of purpose these Bluetooth ID sniffers are being used for.

  61. Rob

    When can we expect some evidence that the app is actually doing what it is allegedly capable of doing?
    With minuscule numbers of Coronavirus infected people out and about, the App may well prove to be absolutely useless.

  62. Bad Samaritan

    I read these threads, and always marvel at how everyone avoids the main issue; which is….What is so important about 15+ minutes?

    Once a pollie or two is seriously confronted with this question, you will either get a refusal to answer, or else total destruction of the rationale for the past couple of months lunacy.

    The hounding of people at beaches who are next to each other for a few seconds or a few minutes; the few moments within the 1.5 metres in a supermarket or service station queue; the frightened avoidance of passers-by in the street will all be shown to have been total BS. “We have expert advice that the danger from fleeting contacts is virtually zero, so we’ve gone with that as the thresh-hold. we don’t care to waste time on under 15 minutes since there will be SFA infections”

    What other reason would there be?

  63. Ray Hughes

    I used to come here for reasoned debate , but it is getting tiresome to hear all the bagging of a government that , in my humble opinion is doing what it thinks is right, not what the left or the right want, we have charted a middle course compared to many other countries and we have been lucky that deaths are not comparable to say Spain or Italy, but have any of you experts thought about the seasons in those countries ? the northern hemisphere is in winter , we are entering winter are you ready for the death toll if we follow those countries? the virus appears to like the cold, I am just a person who has worked since i left school at 15 retired at 70 and have seen so amny left and right governments all doing what they thing is best for us , here and the UK where I was born, I would say we are lucky to have Scotty from marketing leading then any of the alternatives and certainly a lot of the contributors to this site, and I must say the vitriol that still seeps through is disappointing. How many Deaths are acceptable?

  64. Ray

    The government doesn’t even know what to do.

    They’re making it up as they go along.

    “Don’t wear PPE, it actually makes the virus spread quicker”.

    From that moment on, you could have written off their judgement.

    The death toll on Italy is not statistically significant. There are no excess deaths.

  65. Leo G

    I used to come here for reasoned debate , but it is getting tiresome to hear all the bagging of a government.

    Offhand, I can’t think of any place with reasoned debate that also consistently refrains from bagging any government.
    In case I haven’t met my bagging quota, I’ll add a few more general informal comments about rhe performance of Australian governments in managing the presesent crisis, firstly with regards to the COVIDSafe app.
    COVIDSafe is not presently fit for purpose. It looks to me like virtue signaling and pandering to hysteria- a case of starving a cold by feeding a phobia, when what is needed is rational, disciplined management.
    More generally, government responses to the epidemic have been based on pseudo-scientific theories of herd immunity, that largely disregard the heterogeneity of human populations. The focus in Australia has been to entirely eliminate the virus, to avoid more targeted protections for the most susceptible, vulnerable groups.

  66. Kneel

    “How many Deaths are acceptable?”

    None. No deaths are acceptable. Some are inevitable.

    Let me turn it around – what economic price is acceptable?
    $100B? $500B? $1T?
    5% unemployed? 10%? 20%?
    Is a recession acceptable? A depression?

    Economies matter – to tax revenue, to health outcomes, to lifestyles and more.

    How many will die because of the economic damage? (suicide, homelessness leading to exposure etc)
    How many will lose a house, a marriage, not be able to see their kids?
    How many will see their credit rating trashed?
    How many self-employed will fold, making the job market even tighter (more applicants)?
    How much innovation lost because no more “small guys” left?

    How much personal responsibility for your own health?
    Should you cede this to GovCo?
    Should you be forced to?
    What precedents does this set – for surveillance, for intrusive GovCo?

    Yes, lives matter, but so do economies because economies affects lives, just as lives – and lifestyles! – affect economies. Privacy matters – not as much as lives, but it matters none-the-less.
    So stop talking just about “who’ll die” and ask “who’ll be affected, how and how much?”
    All are crap choices, but we have to pick one. We need a sober, considered response, not panic or a knee-jerk reaction that barely helps the target and has significant “collateral damage”.

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