“It’s pretty much a waste of time” – Norman Swan


……………………………….

 
Turns out “pretty much” is not a technical term. The drug cuts the COVID-19 death rate by half:

 

(CNN) – A surprising new study found that the controversial antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine helped patients better survive in the hospital.

A team at Henry Ford Health System in Southeast Michigan said Thursday its study of 2,541 hospitalized patients found that those given hydroxychloroquine were much less likely to die.
Dr. Marcus Zervos, division head of infectious disease for Henry Ford Health System, said 26% of those not given hydroxychloroquine died, compared to 13% of those who got the drug. The team looked back at everyone treated in the hospital system since the first patient in March…

It’s a surprising finding because several other studies have found no benefit from hydroxychloroquine, a drug originally developed to treat and prevent malaria. President Donald Trump touted the drug heavily…

 
Hey, Norman: real scientists conduct research. They don’t lazily bloviate to win cheers from the ABC canteen.

UPDATE: Lying scum journalists very probably killed thousands of people because their Get Trump mental illness derailed hydroxychloroquine for months:

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55 Responses to “It’s pretty much a waste of time” – Norman Swan

  1. Karabar

    The ABC and its lackies seem to think that “science” is some sort of Deity, or something decided in a committee. They have no clue that it is a process for seeking Truth, through logic, reason, and rational thought, borne out by careful observation and measurement of empirical results.

  2. Because Trump said it was good, every Leftist in the world immediately agreed that it was not. If Trump had said the opposite, it would have been lauded.

  3. Catfeesh?

    Surprising that CNN reported on it. Also surprising that CNN couldn’t get the word “surprising” into the article a few more times.

  4. Roger

    The ABC and its lackies seem to think that “science” is some sort of Deity, or something decided in a committee. They have no clue that it is a process for seeking Truth, through logic, reason, and rational thought, borne out by careful observation and measurement of empirical results.

    +1

    You’ll even run across scientists today who don’t understand scientific method.

  5. candy

    I’m not sure but I think hydrochloroquine was given to patients with the virus whereas President Trump was taking it and not having the virus.
    So that would be two different scenarios, as treatment or as preventative?

  6. Covid has exposed all the experts for what they really are …….. Leftard fools !

  7. Steve

    Its simple…the globalist establishment wants a vaccine only “solution”. Thier agenda is using covid19 to further thier agenda using vaccines for tattooing people gor identity purposes.

    The vaccines also appear to be RNA based, which when administered effectively perform illegal DNA modification of people and as such is illegal human experimentation.

    The image of camps in 1930s germany come to mind…

    They can shove that.

    Anything therefore that threatens thier sick little empire is to be attacked with thier attack dogs….

  8. Roger W

    “Lying scum journalists very probably killed thousands of people because their Get Trump mental illness derailed hydroxychloroquine for months”.

    And don’t make the mistake of thinking they give a damn.
    You will find this probably reported once and on the equivalent of about page 25 of the old newspaper format. Don’t expect to even hear about it on their ABC, let alone mentioned by “Dr” Swan (who I don’t think has actually practiced medicine for 40 years).

  9. Penny

    If the regime of Hydroxycloroquine zinc and Azithromycin had been widely used so much carnage could have been prevented both to the world’s economic and health
    HDQ regime can be used in the early stages of the disease and as a prophylaxis, as in countries with malaria, one tablet a week
    I was on chloroquine (40x more potent than HDQ) for 12 years as was my whole family and all the other Europeans living in East Africa, no side effects
    This is as much a political disease as a medical one
    I have emailed conservative commentators such as Andrew Bolt, Alan Jones etc asking why they have gone cold on reporting on the effectiveness of HDQ treatment, I never receive a reply

  10. flyingduk

    I am a physician and have been following the Hydroxychlorquine story for several months. I have no doubt it works. The chloroquines have long been known to have antiviral properties ‘in vitro’ (= in lab tests) and have shown very promising results in small clinical trials as well. One french study reported that 70% of its COVID patients became ‘virus negative’ after a week on it, and their subsequent survival rates are very very good. How it works is unclear, but may involve it enhancing the entry of zinc into cells, which impairs viral RNA replication. What is clear is that it has to be taken early., all antivirals do. Perhaps surprisingly, the patients viral load is highest very early in the illness, possible even before symptoms start, and declines rapidly thereafter. Amongst those who get very ill or die, it is the bodies own inflammatory response that is the main problem. The back story to the whole ‘chloroquine – bad’ narrative is not just ‘orange man bad’ either. Lets not forget that Gilead was desperate to find a home for their $3000 drug ‘Remdesivir’ (which had already failed against MERS and Ebola). The USA FDA has approved it, despite it having marginal (at best) efficacy and no where near as beneficial as either Chloroquine or Dex.

  11. nb

    ‘Lying scum journalists very probably killed thousands of people’
    Lest we forget.

  12. Roger W

    Following up on Penny and Flyingduk, anyone with medical knowledge know the likely benefits of anti-viral drugs like Lysine and anti-inflamatory drugs like Voltarin or Celebrex?

  13. Frank

    Dr Norman Swan is trained as a paediatrician and joined the ABC in 1982. Does anyone know if he still practices medicine or if he is full time ABC instead. Wikipedia and his ABC bio are not clear on the matter.

  14. Tony

    It’s a retrospective study. They can be a good starting point for randomized control trial. However, the patients in these studies weren’t randomly assigned to treatment groups, it’s possible patients more likely to survive were given HCQ whereas the sicker patients were given different drugs.

    You can’t really draw firm conclusions from these studies. They are the basis for better designed RCTs. The whole HCQ in Covid field has been stuffed by the refusal of French doctors to randomize and use placebo groups at the start of the pandemic. RCT results are coming soon. We will know either way.

  15. Spurgeon Monkfish III

    Bolt, Alan Jones etc asking why they have gone cold on reporting on the effectiveness of HDQ treatment

    Bolt has Professor Peter Collignon on his show quite frequently and the latter recently indicated that a local trial of Hydroxychloroquine was underway. Perhaps Bolt is simply waiting to report the results.

    Collignon has been one of the few sensible reasoned voices heard amidst all the recent hysteria, as opposed to numbskulls like Swan.

  16. Big_Nambas

    Swan is a fuckwit, both Norman and Wayne.

  17. John Smith101

    Good posting.
    This video might be relevant, too, in Victoria at least:

  18. Tel

    It’s a surprising finding because several other studies have found no benefit from hydroxychloroquine, a drug originally developed to treat and prevent malaria.

    Surgisphere – total fraud.

    Strangely CNN does not warn their readers … can’t imagine why.

  19. Mitch M.

    Tony
    #3503136, posted on July 4, 2020 at 10:48 am
    It’s a retrospective study. They can be a good starting point for randomized control trial. However, the patients in these studies weren’t randomly assigned to treatment groups, it’s possible patients more likely to survive were given HCQ whereas the sicker patients were given different drugs.

    You can’t really draw firm conclusions from these studies. They are the basis for better designed RCTs.

    You could have been one of the authors. The study states:
    Conclusions and Relevance
    In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact.

  20. incoherent rambler

    a process for seeking Truth, through logic, reason, and rational thought, borne out by careful observation and measurement of empirical results.

    Can you add the word “reproducible” in there somewhere?

  21. Mother Lode

    Also surprising that CNN couldn’t get the word “surprising” into the article a few more times.

    I also like the ‘controversial’.

    The controversy consisted of the MSM insisting it couldn’t work.

  22. Hay Stockard

    The left. Cunning as shit house rats but otherwise pig ignorant.

  23. stackja

    Liberty Quote
    THE mindless and usually vicious stupidity of the left has been on vivid and utterly dependable display …

    — Terry McCrann

  24. Whalehunt Fun

    Norman Swan proving yet again that he is indeed a doctor. Of duddology. A PhDud.
    Seriously is there even one ABC cretin whose cardboard carton into which you would bother to poke air-holes?

  25. New Chum

    There is a good video at this website about Hydroxychloroquine worth 29 m of your time viewing someone with better skills than me might post. http://theclimatescepticsparty.blogspot.com/
    search for “Excellent video re HCQ, politics, and Science”
    I would recommend turning CC closed captions on the video.

  26. Beachcomber

    John Smith101 at 11:10 am

    Rising Covid-19 numbers?

    Also,

    We’ve been hijacked by the Deep State and their medical technologies. Most of us remain clueless about what they actually mean.
    What do the “experts” mean when they say a person “tests positive” for Covid-19?
    They don’t actually mean the person has been found to “have” it.
    It only shows that molecular traces of some RNA sequences were present, or maybe not present if it is a “false-positive”. It reveals nothing about infection by any virus.
    The whole vicious charade of Covid-1984 is a Stalinist masquerade propped up by debased pseudo-science.

  27. Another Ian

    Re Whalehunt Fun
    #3503195, posted on July 4, 2020 at 12:34 pm

    There is that definition of Ph.D. as “Piled Higher and Deeper”

  28. flyingduk

    Following up on Penny and Flyingduk, anyone with medical knowledge know the likely benefits of anti-viral drugs like Lysine and anti-inflamatory drugs like Voltarin or Celebrex?

    I have no knowledge of Lysine, but as a general comment, the anti virals MUST be given very early, preferrably as soon as sympytoms first appear. This is because most viral replication occurs early. If you wait until you are very sick, you have well and truly missed the window for limiting viral replication and can instead only focus on limiting the consequences with steroids and supportive care.
    With regard to the anti-inflammatories, as a general principle, you should assume that the body’s own instrinsic responses are good, having been developed over millenia, hence symptom suppression may be unhelpful. Thus, using NSAIDs like Voltaren to reduce fever and aches might be detrimental. Furthermore, some anti-inflammatories actually impair immune function directly by blocking antibody production. Unfortunately the waters are muddied (as they always are in medicine!) by other factors, for example some of the NSAIDs appear to have antiviral properties as well! Clearly medicine is more art than science!

  29. Tony

    @flyingduck

    One french study reported that 70% of its COVID patients became ‘virus negative’ after a week

    A few studies have shown interferon and convalescent plasma can go viral negative for most (Like 85% IIRC) in three days.

    Not saying HCQ can’t be combined with these etc but alone I’m not sure it has a large effect on lives saved. I am also wondering if it will be pushed out in favour of other antinflammatories like dex and cholchicine. Dex is also cheap and more widely available and it has some good data behind it. Drugs like cholchicine may so help with preventing clots etc.

  30. Iampeter

    Hey, Norman: real scientists conduct research. They don’t lazily bloviate to win cheers from the ABC canteen.

    Yea, Norman! Real scientists just obey commands from Emperor Trump, to the approval of his supporters, who make the ABC seem objective by comparison. Don’t you know Trump is a stable genius? He said so himself!
    Anyway, the FDA’s previous approved use of hydroxychloroquine in March is now being reversed because the overwhelming majority of studies show the opposite of what is being posted here.
    I mean, CL kinda mentions this but then proceeds to discard that little detail because it doesn’t suit narrative of God Emperor Trump always right:

    It’s a surprising finding because several other studies have found no benefit from hydroxychloroquine, a drug originally developed to treat and prevent malaria. President Donald Trump touted the drug heavily…

    The mind of a Trump supporter:
    Anything agreeing with Trump = must be correct!
    Anything disagreeing with Trump = must be wrong!
    You know, exactly the kind of mindless bias that they accuse organizations like the ABC of engaging in, but with zero self awareness.

  31. Megan

    The long term safety issues come as a surprise to a friend of mine who has taken it for 20+ years to manage her Lupus flares.

  32. Bemused:

    Because Trump said it was good, every Leftist in the world immediately agreed that it was not. If Trump had said the opposite, it would have been lauded.

    Were that the case, we’d all have been forced to get hydroxychloroquine suppositories, live, in colour, on national TV.

  33. John A

    Iampeter #3503237, posted on July 4, 2020, at 2:16 pm

    Hey, Norman: real scientists conduct research. They don’t lazily bloviate to win cheers from the ABC canteen.

    Yea, Norman! Real scientists just obey commands from Emperor Trump, to the approval of his supporters

    Excuse me, pebbles, but have you seen this retraction?

  34. egg_

    The ABC and its lackies seem to think that “science” is some sort of Deity, or something decided in a committee. They have no clue that it is a process* for seeking Truth, through logic, reason, and rational thought, borne out by careful observation and measurement of empirical results.

    *And so “The Science is NEVER settled”.

  35. egg_

    Arbaline vaccine was used against Malaria in the 1940s?

  36. egg_

    Atabrine tablets US WWII Pacific Theatre.

  37. Richard Bender

    No, it wasn’t anti-Trump hysteria (as opposed to your pro-authoritarian President hero worship, I presume) that help back hydroxychloroquine. It was because “several other studies have found no benefit”, studies that had no ideological persuasion one way or the other. But I guess we should have ignored all that and force fed people a chemical with known adverse side effects with no evidence of efficacy, just because the President of the United States says so?

    Now, if there is now compelling evidence of benefit that outweighs the harmful effects, great, we have a line of defence for seriously ill people. But it’s a pretty weak line to beat up Norman Swan over, particularly when his clearly wrong at the time prediction of how many people would be hospitalised and how many would die provide ample ammunition if you want to engage in a character assassination.

  38. flyingduk

    Not saying HCQ can’t be combined with these etc but alone I’m not sure it has a large effect on lives saved. I am also wondering if it will be pushed out in favour of other antinflammatories like dex and cholchicine.

    Its not either/or, these approaches are complimentary. Antivirals (like Chloroquine) can be beneficial if given early, ie in the first week of symptoms. Anti-inflammatories (like Dex) are only beneficial from the 2nd week on, when viral replication is pretty much over, and the fight moves to moderating the damage the immune system is doing.

  39. Squirrel

    “Lying scum journalists very probably killed thousands of people because their Get Trump mental illness derailed hydroxychloroquine for months”

    And their Strayan comrades can take a good share of the “credit” for the clusterfuck unfolding in the enchanted realm of Dan, Emperor With No Clothes of Victoriastan – the enlightened ruler who can do no wrong, and who can never be embarrassed with inconvenient questions.

  40. flyingduk

    No, it wasn’t anti-Trump hysteria (as opposed to your pro-authoritarian President hero worship, I presume) that help back hydroxychloroquine. It was because “several other studies have found no benefit”, studies that had no ideological persuasion one way or the other.

    Er, yes it was, the benefits of chloroquine were reported as early as February. The mainstream media jumped to kill it because ‘orange man bad’. They were aided by the makers of Remdesivir (Gilead) and their allies, who set up a study designed to fail (by giving excessively high doses of HydroxyQ, and giving it late, way to late for it to be helpful even if it was effective). They then compared it to their own study which was set up to succeed (colour me shocked!) by having irrelevant ‘success’ criteria (like days of symptomatology). They then used a (clinically irrelevant) reduction in days of symptomatology to halt their trial early (before it could be shown it was useless in terms of survival). Based on this, (and the now retracted Lancet paper), they killed the Hydroxychloroquine trail and got their own drug FDA approved. Sadly, just as we have seen with ‘climate change science’, ‘COVID science’ is also corrupt and can be steered towards the result you want, if you have enough money 🙁

  41. egg_

    “Lying scum journalists very probably killed thousands of people because their Get Trump mental illness derailed hydroxychloroquine for months”

    Their ABC News Presenters were openly scoffing about it.
    So much for “public service” providers.

  42. Mitch M.

    Carry on with the conspiracies and it is all about Trump to your heart’s content. Meanwhile the research community is looking far and wide for possible approaches. Today I received an email which contained an abstract arguing for an approach that surprised me: using antioxidants to reduce the inflammatory response and subsequent cytokine storm. I’m not that confident the approach will work but it is good to see the exploration. I did a very quick search and there is some evidence to support their argument; particularly in relation to melatonin because it is a potent antioxidant and can boost the immune response in the right direction.

    Devilishly radical NETwork in COVID-19: Oxidative stress, neutrophil extracellular traps (NETs), and T cell suppression

    …The key role of oxidative stress in the pathogenesis of severe COVID-19 implies that therapeutic counterbalancing of ROS by antioxidants such as vitamin C or NAC …

    I wouldn’t go for C so much but the NAC idea is very interesting because it will help prevent T cell exhaustion.

  43. C.L.

    I guess we should have ignored all that and force fed people a chemical with known adverse side effects with no evidence of efficacy, just because the President of the United States says so?

    I don’t recall the President of the United States saying anything like that.

  44. flyingduk

    using antioxidants to reduce the inflammatory response and subsequent cytokine storm

    Indeed, there is a sound basis for this approach: one of the pathological mechanisms of SARS-COV2 is to bind to the ‘ACE2’ receptor. That receptor produces ‘ACE1-7’ which is an important molecule in dealing with ‘oxidative stress’, thus COVID impairs your own body’s ability to deal with the ‘free radicals’ it makes daily in the normal course of metabolism. Best practice flowcharts include the following generic immune boosters and antioxidants to improve your resistance even before you get the illness: Vitamin C, Vitamin D, NAC, Quercetin, Melatonin (all available on ebay). The US “East Virginia Medical School” publishes the current guidelines at: https://www.evms.edu/covid-19/covid_care_for_clinicians/

  45. Mitch M.

    : Vitamin C, Vitamin D, NAC, Quercetin, Melatonin (all available on ebay). The US “East Virginia Medical School” publishes the current guidelines at: https://www.evms.edu/covid-19/covid_care_for_clinicians/

    C and Quercetin and poor bioavailability which may be further impaired if gut infection is present. I’m a little wary of high C intake during highly infectious states because of the possibility of high levels of free iron. High C + free iron can be oxidative but that requires very high IV C.

    This might help re quercetin
    https://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/Article/2018/10/30/Overcoming-the-low-bioavailability-hurdle-of-quercetin-Indena-study-supports-phytosome-use-to-boost-absorption

    Thanks for the ACE 2-1-7 linkage. That’s an important component for understanding the strong inflammatory response of COVID and helps support the argument.

  46. jupes

    Atabrine tablets US WWII Pacific Theatre.

    I took Chloroquine for five weeks or so as an anti-malarial in PNG back in 1988. Survived.

    The course was Chloroquine and Maloprim as a prophylactic in country then primaquin to eradicate the disease on return to Australia.

    Didn’t work. I had two strains of Malaria (vivax and falciparum) concurrently, a couple of weeks later. Survived that too.

  47. Tony

    @flying duck

    Vitamin C, Vitamin D, NAC, Quercetin, Melatonin

    I’m on low doses of these in modest doses from a few weeks into the pandemic. Not Quercetin as it is hard to get hold of. I’m also making sure I get all the various B vitamins and my RDI of zinc and a few other minerals. The issue is that thing like Vitamin C and melatonin tablets come in quite high doses. I’m breaking my VitC tablets into quarters and the lowest dose melatonin (0.3mg) is still probably too high (though a covid clinical trial is using 2mg daily).

    I figure for the course of the pandemic the higher vitamin levels are ok. But I do have some concerns that longer term there is a slightly higher cancer risk etc.

  48. Tony

    The other thing is that I am considering asking my GP for an MMR booster. It’s been a few decades since my last shot and it seems MMR, polio, BCG, smallpox vaccines can boost non specific trained immunity.

  49. AC

    But Ita said he is a national treasure!!!

  50. Iampeter

    I don’t recall the President of the United States saying anything like that.

    Yea because that was the point and not the fact that Trump supporters are engaging in the very same dishonesty they are accusing “the left” of engaging in. As usual.

  51. Petros

    How does Norman Swan maintain his medical registration, and the use of the honorific “Doctor”, if he is no longer seeing patients? He does not have a doctorate from what I can see.
    On another note, the trials that used zinc in conjunction with hydroxychloroquine were showing promise, and then they decided to do studies which did not include zinc.

  52. Tel

    I’ve been looking into the possibility of Quercetin, but not many places sell it and there’s a bunch of conflicting information out there about what it does. Some people take it for allergies, because it suppresses the normal immune system histamine response, it can also reduce inflammation, probably a good thing. I should point out that Hydroxychloroquine has some similar effects which is why low doses are used to control lupus (immune system disorder). Do there’s the possibility that Quercetin might behave as a lightweight substitute for Hydroxychloroquine under some circumstances.

  53. Astatine Jones

    Norman Swan’s tweet about doubts over the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in the treatment of Covid-19 is dated May 19.

    Concern about the side-effects of treatment with hydroxychloroquine was shared by much of the medical community worldwide, including in Trump’s own USA. Trials into use of this drug (already employed against malaria and lupus) were in progress though, so it certainly hadn’t been written off as a useful drug for Covid-19. WHO and some other research organisations suspended trials when a massive study (671 hospitals worldwide, 96000 patients) claiming to demonstrate serious side effects from the use of hydroxychloroquine was published in the Lancet on May 22. However, this was retracted a week later by the journal (May 29) when independent review questioned the veracity of the findings. Most of the trials on hydroxychloroquine have now recommenced.

    The CNN news story and Greg Price’s tweet are dated July 3.

    Science isn’t perfect, there are no omniscient medical experts, and hindsight is 20/20. And don’t let facts ruin a good narrative.

  54. Astatine Jones

    The ABC and its lackies seem to think that “science” is some sort of Deity, or something decided in a committee. They have no clue that it is a process for seeking Truth, through logic, reason, and rational thought, borne out by careful observation and measurement of empirical results.

    Committee has a lot to do with modern Science. This is exactly why studies into the use of hydroxychloroquine were underway, why the Lancet study regarding potential serious side effects from its use was published, and (within a week or so) was retracted. Most of Science is essentially done by ‘committee’ and consensus. It’s called replication, collaboration, peer review.
    The lone scientist working away in a dusty (or ultra clean) lab to bring about a world changing discovery is mostly a fictional concept. Even Dr Frankenstein had an assistant.

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