We’re going to keep you all locked up until you people stop dying

This is from The Herald Sun:

Premier Daniel Andrews said restrictions would be in place until next year if Victorians didn’t adhere to them and case numbers didn’t decrease.

“It won’t be a 6-week strategy, it will be much longer,” he said.

“We will be into 2021 with significant lockdown in place.”

We are dealing with some kind of mental derangement. Daniel Andrews is our version of Captain Queeg. He seems to be taking the continuation of increased number of cases – not deaths in aged-care – but the number of cases as a personal matter. If you people won’t stop dying from this Covid virus, he seems to be saying, and keep getting the virus even asymtomatically, then I will keep you in lockdown until it stops.

He is a typical union thug who knows only force. We have now gone well beyond responsible health-care management into full-scale totalitarian mode. The scale of damage being created – and not just economic damage – is beyond comprehension. There must be some kind of reason applied to restore Victoria to an even keel. Seriously, is there no means to stop Andrews from continuing with this madness?

And this has been sent to me today also from overseas where Victoria is being recognised for the madness of the approach that is being taken.

This is about Melbourne written in the US by Jeffrey Tucker: Madness in Melbourne

Melbourne has now become world famous. I wonder if the member of the police shown in the video has ever heard of the Stasi. There is no question that Daniel Andrews knows who they were.

Melbourne is the new East Berlin.

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91 Responses to We’re going to keep you all locked up until you people stop dying

  1. Soberinthemorning

    Agree completely but why are polls still showing strong support for him? I am Queenslander if they tried something similar up here would be marching in the streets. Are Victorians all cowed wokesters?

  2. Leigh Lowe

    Tucker, like so many others, screws over his case with a lie.

    Army is on the streets fining/arresting people.

    The Army are not fining or arresting anyone.
    There is enough to criticize without bullshitting.

  3. H B Bear

    From Day 1 Covid has been a quasi-political phenomenon. Trump, the Ch1nese, Captain Dan, faceless bureaucrats – it has had everything.

  4. Mustapha Bunn

    A few days ago a lady in Hoppers Crossing was man handled to the ground by 3 Plods for not complying and yesterday a young woman was held by the neck and then thrown on the floor by another of Dan’s bovver boys in black. There were some on this site who said those women deserved it etc.etc. This on a right of centre blog think what was said by those on the left and yet on this blog again we Victorians are being slagged by all the fucking tribes in the rest of Australia because we “ don’t rise up against Andrews”. Some of you need to make your fucking minds up.
    Sorry for the language but quite frankly i’m Getting pissed off with the rest of the holier than though shit that’s coming from the rest of the country. As has been said by others in Victoria on this site since this nightmare started we did NOT all vote for the Prat.

  5. H B Bear

    Half the media advisors ( like Chairman Dan’s) are wondering how to make it go away, the other half ( likeSneakers McGowan) wonder how they can extend it.

  6. NoFixedAddress

    It is absolutely astounding Steve.

    The only mechanism that might have stopped him would be shutting down the flow of money he can spend but it appears there is no interest nor desire let alone he had already secured CCP support.

    Even an election cannot happen until November 26, 2022.

  7. H B Bear

    WA is yet to record a single case of community transmission as far as I know. Credit for running a decent quarantine but there are really only two roads into WA.

  8. H B Bear

    Victoriastanis (collectively, if it helps) have already failed once having re- elected Chairman Dan once when the red shirts and many egregious breaches of good governance were known, probably not well known thanks to a compliant media. They will get another chance in 2023 or whenever. We’ll see what happens then.

  9. Lazlo

    I have never liked Melbourne. If they vote for him again (take note Mustapha) then they deserve all they get.

  10. exsteelworker

    If ever a group needed to protest Melbourne is ripe for the picking. 8pm to 5am curfew……LOCKED UP TILL 2021….choking a young girl to the ground by a MALE COP for not wearing a mask….do they need anymore reason to protest.

  11. pbw

    This is the guy who went with two other detectives to Rome to interrogate Pell. This is the guy who pushed on with the prosecution. The State of Victorian is rotten through and through. The roll-call of deadbeats who have headed up VicPol is truly amazing.

  12. Some History

    If ever a group needed to protest Melbourne is ripe for the picking. 8pm to 5am curfew……LOCKED UP TILL 2021….choking a young girl to the ground by a MALE COP for not wearing a mask….do they need anymore reason to protest.

    A protest was planned last weekend IIRC. It looked as though only a small number would have attended. But, a few days before the event the protest organisers were arrested and charged with incitement to protest. Got that? “Incitement to protest”.

    Victoria Police arrest two men for organising planned Melbourne protest through CBD
    Two men have been arrested for planning a protest where hundreds of people were set to defy Melbourne’s lockdown.

    https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/victoria-police-warn-fines-will-be-issued-after-hundreds-plan-to-defy-lockdown-and-protest-through-melbourne-cbd/news-story/d6ba60315af7b0306634c908de4622dc

  13. stackja

    How many Victorians still believe Pell was guilty? Bracks and Macklin are keeping a low profile.

  14. Peter Smith

    No parliament sitting; no political opposition to speak of; no media opposition to speak of; a population of compliant, even grateful, sheep. Why would Dictator Dan change course?

  15. Lazlo

    Victoria Police now, conclusively = Stasi. What are citizens going to do about it?

  16. stackja

    Victorian voters keep electing ALP to government expecting a different result.

  17. Lazlo

    Let’s keep the border closed. Victorians seem determined to destroy their economy via Stasi virus panic and Green new deal madness anyway. Why should we all suffer for this? It has already started, so let’s get behind a De-Federation Party!

  18. NoFixedAddress

    Peter Smith
    #3545886, posted on August 12, 2020 at 11:57 pm

    No parliament sitting; no political opposition to speak of; no media opposition to speak of; a population of compliant, even grateful, sheep. Why would Dictator Dan change course?

    The only thing I can think you might do is if ‘a group’ of humble subjects were to make a direct petition to the Queen.

    The frothing at the mouth of the psychotic scum would make it worth it alone.

    Imagine red bandana man sneering and dribbling particularly if you could get Israel Folau to carry the Petition to The Palace.

  19. Tom

    I’ve never voted for the Liars, federal or state. And I will again vote against my invisible local member, Lisa Neville, who I expect will, like Joan Kirner before the Kennett landslide in 1992, be given the hospital hamdpass next year to become premier before the Liars corruptocracy is again swept out of power — with or without the invisible Michael O’Brien as the helm of the Lieborals.

    (O’Brien is so useless the media go to Jeff Kennett to comment on issues as de facto opposition leader.)

    The Stupid Fucking Liberals will again, as they always do, just tidy up the state budget, which has been pillaged by Andrews, in readiness for the next Liars state government in 2026.

  20. NoFixedAddress

    And the basis of the petition to the Queen is that her loyal subjects have had their property rights expropriated and extinguished by Her Australian representatives who have and are actively working against Her Gracious Majesty.

  21. Crazyoldranga

    Watching the video I’m reminded of Pirates of the Caribbean. “More your guideline than a rule”.

  22. Mark M

    I sent that Madness in Melbourne to a life long friend who grew up in Altona, now lives on GC.

    He replied in rage that anyone could think they could say that about Melbourne.

    He said Dan was doing a great job and was prepared for Queensland to be locked down if it ‘saved lives’.

    I suggested he get his news from other sources than FB (he is a FB tragic and counts Jimmy Barnes as one of his “friends”).

    Consequently, the weekly catch-up phone calls have ceased from him.

    I sent an email this morning, see if he replies.

  23. Mark M

    Madness.
    They can’t even tell the difference between a compound and an element:

    Australia’s doctors call for a post-COVID-19 HealthyRecovery

    Carbon [sic] pollution and associated global warming will have profound consequences on the fundamentals of human health: clean air, water, access to food and a safe climate.

    https://www.dea.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-08-06-Healthy-Recovery-Letter-_-Scott-Morrison-PM.pdf

  24. rickw

    As I have said from the start, we have a hostage situation.

    The population of the entire state are the hostages.

  25. Diogenes

    Mark,
    And what really grinds my gears is that because of this kind of stupidity from CMOs there was no planning for a pandemic despite the close calls we have had over the last 15 years eg SARS1, ebola, swine flu etc etc

  26. NoFixedAddress

    Australian Daily Cases of Cancer = 400 (Annual Total = 145,843)

    Australian Daily Deaths from Cancer = 132 (Annual Total = 48,003)

    https://canceraustralia.gov.au/affected-cancer/what-cancer/cancer-australia-statistics

    Victorian Daily Cases of Cancer = 96/day ( 2018 – 35,203)

    Victorian Daily Deaths from Cancer = 30/day (2018 – 11,134)

    page 10 from https://www.cancervic.org.au/downloads/cec/cancer-in-vic/Cancer-in-Victoria-2018.pdf

  27. John Bayley

    I am Queenslander if they tried something similar up here would be marching in the streets.

    Surely you jest.

    I’m a Queenslander also, and I am quite certain that should Headlesschook bring in similar measures, she’d be reelected in a landslide.

    People are sheeple everywhere. Pathetic and ignorant.
    Just the way our ‘betters’ want them to be.

  28. Alan

    Peter Smith (above) is right – Why would anyone change course?
    Look at your Liberal Party. According to Professor of Law Augusto Zimmermann:
    How Have You Let it Come to This?
    From the article: “Sir Robert Menzies would be appalled”.

    Mr Morrison not only has refused to criticise the Victorian Premier for being unable to stop the spread of the virus, he has further encouraged political arbitrariness and oppression in Victoria by, in his own words, “encouraging the Victorian government to ensure that there are appropriate penalties for those who do break public health notices.”

    Mustapha Bunn (above) made a good point:
    “on a right of centre blog … Some of you need to make your f****ing minds up.”

  29. min

    What can the Opposition do in Victoria? Even before pandemic , the media ignored them . Eg they contact all media daily and if invited on the free to air or ABC given minimum time. Andrews set up the Emergency cabinet in the beginning so no way to question them or get any information . Now if Opposition question any decisions Andrews and co have made ,they are the baddies . Good example when the Legislative Council was held last week , Mikakos refused to answer and accused them of breaking the rules re gatherings .
    Now we have Andrews out and out lying , documentary evidence from Federal government, and his own prove this and what are the Media doing ? The only attack coming is from 2GB and Ben Fordham .
    HELP a locked up for Six months granny Who spends her time making political memes , writing to anyone and everyone to find a solution .

  30. Spurgeon Monkfish III

    The only way this totalitarian takeover of Disasterstan will be brought to a long overdue end is if hundreds of thousands of people existing in that shithole (and I mean on a Marcos/Ceausescu scale i.e. at least 300,000 or more) turn up outside Spring St one morning and demand it (many many pitchforks, nooses, pikes and flaming torches would also be a nice additional touch).

    Then let’s see Dunderhead Dan Xi Man and his bloated beetle browed z-grade minions bullshit their way out of that one. Any “disproportionate” police response would look absolutely dreadful, especially given the previous free passes for the black imbeciles matter screechfests.

    Is such mass civil disobedience likely to happen? Of course not.

    Enjoy your state of disaster and consequent open air concentration camp conditions until well into 2021 and beyond, until around 50.1% of you* express your eternal gratitude to your gaolers by voting them into power (again).

    *A concession for poor ol’ mustapha.

  31. Mak Siccar

    Alan
    #3545999, posted on August 13, 2020 at 7:49 am
    Peter Smith (above) is right – Why would anyone change course?
    Look at your Liberal Party. According to Professor of Law Augusto Zimmermann:
    How Have You Let it Come to This?

    Read this excellent article in the wee hours this morning. Recommended reading for Cats with available time.

    https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2020/08/australia-how-have-you-let-it-come-to-this/

  32. Roger

    We are dealing with some kind of mental derangement.

    On the part of the populace perhaps but not your leadership.

    Andrews’s tactic of blaming the populace of Melbourne is designed to distract attention from his government’s failures on hotel quarantine.

    He appears to have Morrison’s support; not surprising as the Federal government dropped the ball on the aged care facilities, over which they have principal oversight.

  33. Gotta love how so many north of the border love to constantly disparage Victorians.

    Yet when there’s flood, fire, drought or any other disaster north of the border, Victorians come out in mass to provide as much assistance, out of their own pockets, as they can.

    You bastards forget so easily and would likely complain just as loudly if we decided to tell you to bugger off, given your attitude when you’re in good times.

  34. Lee

    He appears to have Morrison’s support; not surprising as the Federal government dropped the ball on the aged care facilities, over which they have principal oversight.

    Bitterly disappointed with Morrison.
    He won’t even stand up for himself and his own party, let alone Victorians.
    He apologises to his ideological enemies for the tiniest perceived slight, and hasn’t got the mongrel to take on Labor.

  35. Spurgeon Monkfish III

    love to constantly disparage Disasterstanians

    For very sound reasons, the least of which is that any idiocy foisted on those existing in Disasterstan invariably ends up being regarded as a set of instructions rather than a textbook warning (of what not to do) for the equally noxious fuckwits we’re cursed with maladministering other jurisdictions.

    Beryl Gladyschlocklian and Health Hazzard are watching events in Disasterstan unfold with grate interest – so they can impose the same fascist measures here as soon as they think they can get away with it, as is that fat useless upscreechee cow, Anesthesia Pluckachook.

    In any sane just world they would all have been violently apprehended by the citizenry, dragged to a very public place, administered a series of lengthy floggings and then hanged.

  36. mem

    “The Premier also revealed the majority of Victorian healthcare workers were being infected by coronavirus outside the workplace.

    He said the analysis was ongoing and he would be able to provide a detailed breakdown of workplace transmission next week, but early results had revealed “the majority of healthcare workers are acquiring coronavirus outside of the workplace”.
    So health workers are infected at a greater rate than the rest of the community but Daniel Andrews” bespoke research says “the majority of healthcare workers are acquiring coronavirus outside of the workplace”. Another lie in the making under the subterfuge of “preliminary results” Does he really think we are sucked in by this craaap Are health workers living in the towers just shacking up with untrained security guards?
    https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/coronavirus-victoria-infections-rise-by-278-eight-new-deaths/news-story/f9a41adaa8befc669faa3312ea77a228

  37. wozzup

    “Victorian Police forced to smash car windows……….”
    Ah nostalgia! How well I remember the good old days when Victorian cops were shooting people in the streets. Memories (sigh). Victorian police under Red Dan brings it all back as if it happened only yesterday.

  38. H B Bear

    Lieborals would much rather take on a fellow Lieboral than the Liars.

  39. Tim Neilson

    Are Victorians all cowed wokesters?

    No, only 61%.

  40. Mustapha Bunn

    Spurge on .. thanks for your “concession “. It’ very satisfying to get a tick from a smartarse.

  41. notafan

    My son tells me his friends are all sharing Dan as Hitler memes.

    Not the crowd I thought would arc up.

    Probably all quietly breaking the rules.

    Apparently people not driving across town is proof that the lockdown is working.

    Not dying might be a better indicator.

    Dan don’t care, he loves it.

  42. Spurgeon Monkfish III

    It’ very satisfying to get a tick from a smartarse.

    Takes one to know one, ol’ chap.

  43. mem

    Todays Daniel Andrews Corona Deflection Quiz
    Read the statement below
    Fact. Healthcare workers have a higher rate of infection than the rest of the Victorian community but:
    “The Premier also revealed the majority of Victorian healthcare workers were being infected by coronavirus outside the workplace. He said the analysis was ongoing and he would be able to provide a detailed breakdown of workplace transmission next week, but early results had revealed “the majority of healthcare workers are acquiring coronavirus outside of the workplace”.
    Questions
    Is the Premier quoting preliminary research to avoid taking responsibility?
    Is the preliminary research rigged to give this result?
    Are the aged care workers living in the tower blocks?
    Are the aged care worker shacking up with untrained security guards?
    Are some of the aged care workers moonlighting as security guards?

    Answer yes to all of the above and you will win a day at home and an hour of exercise.

  44. HT

    “They” are chemically sedating people in Aged Homes. I’m speechless, is this is what we have become?

  45. Wallace

    How is Dan going to run the belt and road if he can’t run this present episode?
    Btw.. Have the warfies on strike in Victoria gone back to work yet?

  46. cuckoo

    Andrews’ lying and obfuscation about the offer of ADF personnel to run the quarantine is already so Byzantine that I find it hard to follow. Only yesterday he was smugly asserting that if his minister said the offer wasn’t made, then that effectively proves the federal minister is lying, although he didn’t put it as bluntly as that. But if what I read today is correct, The Federal Defence minister has released documents proving that the offer was indeed made. So where does he go from here?

  47. Roger

    “They” are chemically sedating people in Aged Homes. I’m speechless, is this is what we have become?

    The vulnerable must be sedated.

    Oops – I meant to say protected.

  48. min

    The reason health workers ,which includes cleaners and other jobs Not just doctors and nurses , are living with , Mingling with the huge numbers of untraced , Non notified positive tested , or contacts . This is a mess from stories I hear from medicos in family, stories on 3aw Pathological Liar is telling us all that is working extremely well . Well for him so he can keep State of Disaster and emergency cabinet no accountability.

  49. Terry

    @H B Bear
    ‘Lieborals would much rather take on a fellow Lieboral than the Liars.’
    And why wouldn’t they? The Lieboral “leaders” of courage know their fellow Libs will not fight back.
    Might put their public sinecure at risk if they upset Labor and their cronies (unleash the media hounds).
    Besides, the Lieborals are infested with wets; functionally indistinguishable from Labor hacks, or even the Greens in most instances. They have far more in common with their “opponents” than their “friends”.
    The “Deep State” has control and its various brands are equally hideous.

  50. Diogenes

    I’m a Queenslander also, and I am quite certain that should Headlesschook bring in similar measures, she’d be reelected in a landslide.

    No 1 son & D-i-L (Sunshine Coast) are not affected by lockdowns , in fact D-i-L is making more money than when she was on maternity leave.
    Sister in law (Stanthorpe) is getting more hours than she can work in her tourism-related job because none of the other casuals want to go to work (Jobkeeper), and her pensioner hubby loves the extra payments he is getting – they are seeing an uptick in tourism – so no problemo (totally forgetting that Stanthorpe is 90% local, as in Brisbane, Sunshine and Gold Coasts, tourism )

    Except for the fact that we can’t visit and help out when kids are sick and can’t go to preschool… they love it, because they can’t see that they are being affected.

  51. Lee

    Andrews’ lying and obfuscation about the offer of ADF personnel to run the quarantine is already so Byzantine that I find it hard to follow. Only yesterday he was smugly asserting that if his minister said the offer wasn’t made, then that effectively proves the federal minister is lying, although he didn’t put it as bluntly as that.

    Cuckoo, Andrews is usually very careful to choose his (weasel) words, but is pretty clear in his inferences.
    Like the time he all but made it obvious that he thought that the High Court (7-0) got it wrong about Cardinal Pell, without directly attacking it.

  52. Roger

    As a self-described practising Catholic Andrews doesn’t seem to have much of a conscience.

  53. Terry

    Ah Bemused,
    ‘complain just as loudly if we decided to tell you to bugger off’

    If complaining is rejoicing (what isn’t opposite in these days of COVID-1984?), then yes there will be much “complaining”.

    But I think you’re onto something:
    * Send us your 39%, we’ll send you our “Greens”.

    * We can formalise “The Moat on the Murray”. (You’ll need a wall on your side to keep the grateful sheep in, after they click to what they’ve voted for – don’t worry, Dear Leader Dan has mates that can handle the construction, for a fee.)

    * You guys can get on with your lockdown towards Socialist Utopia; most liveable city in the world.

    *We’ll get the 39% to help us elect an actual government up here (remember, we only want the smart ones).

    There you go. Competitive Federalism.

    In a few years, after we’ve had enough time up here to run the Leftists out of town, clean up our bureaucracies, (read: fire most of them, and send them to Victoriastan), reduce taxation, and restore the rule of law, we might find an actual leader to declare, ‘Mr Andrewsachev, tear down this wall!’

    Only hole in the plan: how do we drag Canberra across the border? Or should we just Nuke it from Orbit, to be sure?

  54. Terry
    #3546213, posted on August 13, 2020 at 10:35 am

    Don’t forget that old saying ‘Pride comes before a fall’.

  55. duncanm

    Fact. Healthcare workers have a higher rate of infection than the rest of the Victorian communit

    bullshit.

    This is a classic case of ‘if you’ll look, you’ll find’.

    Healthcare workers have a higher rate of detected infection, because they’re being tested so often. The infection rate in the wider community will be exactly the same, but mostly untested.

  56. sfw

    I often speak to people in Melbourne when I’m doing business, many, possibly the majority will say that they are over Andrews, even some who were very supportive of him earlier. Problem is the fines are massive and the police very keen. Many people are out of work and are just getting by, one fine could result in disaster for them. They can’t afford to protest. This will continue until it gets to the point where they have nothing left to lose and then the big protests will begin. With the Commonwealth Gov propping up Andrews it won’t happen soon. We need the Libs to grow some and raise the pressure on the bat eared hunchback. Can’t see it happening.

  57. Hay Stockard

    Red China would like to give a special shout out to the voters of Victoria.

  58. Lee

    With the Commonwealth Gov propping up Andrews it won’t happen soon.

    Despite that, the feds are copping flak from Albanese over the virus, while he and Labor are strangely (ahem) quiet about Dictator Dan’s role.

    We need the Libs to grow some and raise the pressure on the bat eared hunchback. Can’t see it happening.

    Nor can I.
    It’s almost as though Andrews has something on the federal government.
    Morrison has to realise that Labor, state and federal, are not his friends, and will use and abuse him if they have to save their own skins.

  59. duncanm

    From the quadrant link above, a nice quote from Tacitus, attributed to Calgacus, a chieftan of the Caledonians:

    .. they make a desert and they call it peace

  60. There are only a few leaders in the western world prepared to call a spade a spade and not worry about the woke outcry; Trump, Orban, Putin (funny how the Left is against his reported vaccine) and one other whose name eludes me. There are certainly none in Australia.

  61. John A

    Chief Comm Patton talks about the Chief Health Officer guidelines.

    Well, are they for guidance or are they legally enforceable regulations?

    Please be clear, because you are not helping your deployed officers do the job you have given them!

  62. Dinky

    .choking a young girl to the ground by a MALE COP for not wearing a mask

    I’ve noticed that most of the mask defiers are women. Interesting that. Da sistas are doin’ it for themselves.

    As for the police throwing women to the ground & kneeling on them, I work in a suburb of Melbourne that has a high Sudanese population & quite a few of the women don’t wear masks. I wonder if our brave police would treat them the same way?

  63. min

    Well at least all government departments here in Vic are run on diversity and inclusion model

  64. The BigBlueCat

    Melbourne is the new East Berlin

    Well, BS to that – no-one gets shot for crossing the border without papers or staying out after curfew, and there are plenty of supplies of goods flowing into and out of Melbourne. That some may be in short supply is due to a few selfish and irresponsible people, both purchasing and supplying.

    As for smashing car windows, well I think VicPol could be more creative – block the wheels and let the passengers stew inside until bodily functions force them out. Or just charge on summons the registered owner of the vehicle for each passenger in breach of the guidelines, with an option to nominate who the occupants were. Or impound the vehicle – tow it with the occupants inside. But again, no-one has died from a smashed window. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    As for the little “princess” being choked and slammed to the floor – give me a break! She and her friend it seems are known anti-maskers and they were out looking for trouble (which they found). The cop eased her to the ground, and he wasn’t choking her but using pressure points. And in all this we hear cries of how p*ss-weak the cop was. Well, which is it? Was he choking her and slamming her to the ground? Or was he using acceptable techniques to control her and make sure she didn’t receive unnecessary damage? Stupid little “princess” has been charged with resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer and rightly so.

    I gotta tell ya – I am seriously wondering how right-wing (or centre-right) some Cats really are. Where are the cries to uphold the law? Uphold our safety? Uphold our rights to health and happiness? Protect our property? COVID-19 is proving to be infectious and dangerous. Do the right effing thing and wear that effing mask, and effing stay inside during the effing curfew – to do otherwise is selfish and dangerous, and puts your life, liberty and property at even greater risk. By not observing what the Chief Health Officer needs us to do will only extend the crises even further.

    I never voted for Dan, and never will vote ALP. Unfortunately, the opposition is useless (or worse). Dan has done some dumb and dangerous things that he needs to be held accountable for. But he’s also done some proper things, things that an alternative government would/should do. Given the COVID genie is out of the bottle, not wearing a mask and not observing restrictions is suicidal and irresponsible.

    I get it people hate the restrictions – so do I. But you are free to make whatever choices you think you need to make. Some of those choices have painful or expensive consequences. But you aren’t being forced at gunpoint to make a choice you don’t want to make, or being shot or put into detention having made the wrong choice (unless there’s a chargeable offence you’ve committed and are being detained for). So quite the East Berlin and Stassi rhetoric; the political issue here isn’t left versus right, it’s authoritarian versus laissez-faire. Or somewhere in the middle (which is where I think we are). But sure, vote the ALP out next election (of course, Dangerous Dan might have resigned by then – we can only hope).

    FMD – those wymminz who get tackled for resisting arrest deserve what they get with age or gender not a restriction on how they should be treated. They’re not arrested for not wearing a mask, but they are refusing to follow a reasonable police request and identify themselves. It should have happened at the BLM rallies, which is where the current crises most likely started from.

  65. Archivist

    @TheBigBlueCat

    Well, BS to that – no-one gets shot for crossing the border without papers

    You’re literally not allowed to cross the Victorian border, unless you have “papers” showing a valid reason. Maybe use a different example next time.

    As for the little “princess” being choked and slammed to the floor – give me a break! She and her friend it seems are known anti-maskers and they were out looking for trouble (which they found).

    The only context that can justify the police action is if she got violent at the cops first. That’s not how people should be arrested for non-violent crimes.

    I gotta tell ya – I am seriously wondering how right-wing (or centre-right) some Cats really are. Where are the cries to uphold the law?

    There is no law against being in public without a mask.

    Uphold our rights to health and happiness?

    Neither of those are rights. If they were, you could file a lawsuit when you suffer from allergies or watch a sad movie.

    I get it people hate the restrictions – so do I. But you are free to make whatever choices you think you need to make

    That’s factually incorrect, as demonstrated.

  66. Archivist

    Victorians should wear masks in public, for the simple reason that, regardless of the legalities, you will be arrested, and the media and courts are not on your side.
    Don’t pick a fight you’re going to lose.

  67. Tim Neilson

    Do the right effing thing and wear that effing mask, and effing stay inside during the effing curfew – to do otherwise is selfish and dangerous, and puts your life, liberty and property at even greater risk.

    Absolutist statements like this exacerbate the problem.

    Someone going for their run or walking their dog at 8.10 pm isn’t “dangerous” at all. In fact the converse is true – in built up areas forcing everyone to do their shopping etc. within a confined time setting is creating more crowding, and thus more near-interactions between people and thus increasing the (admittedly negligible) risk of further transmissions.

    As for masks, a doctor who works for Vic state government admitted to me that making people wear masks out of doors when we’ve already got 1.5 metres social distancing rules in place is little more than a superstition.

    BBC, your comments about attention-seeking lawbreaking are fair enough. But if you think that Dan’s regulations have anything to do with public health you’ve lost your critical faculties. The regulations are designed to provoke disobedience or catch out inadvertent non-compliance so Dan can blame ordinary citizens for his cockups.

    My view on the regs is that getting fined several hundred dollars to make a “statement” would be counterproductive – just playing into Dan’s hands by giving him another scapegoat. And I wouldn’t set out to break a regulation in any case. But I’ve got no time for this nonsense that we have to worship Dan’s voodoo gods and boogeymen.

  68. Lee

    As for the little “princess” being choked and slammed to the floor – give me a break! She and her friend it seems are known anti-maskers and they were out looking for trouble (which they found).

    Without justifying what the policeman did, a lady witness interviewed by Channel 9 said that the girl and the guy filming her were hanging around the same area the previous day.
    The witness seemed to be implying the girl and guy were looking for trouble, as you said, BBC.

  69. The BigBlueCat

    You’re literally not allowed to cross the Victorian border, unless you have “papers” showing a valid reason. Maybe use a different example next time.

    Has anyone been shot? If you have a valid, provable reason, there is no restriction to crossing the border. The rules are simple. Also, the rules are there because of the NSW government, not the Victorian government (as I undertsand it).

    The only context that can justify the police action is if she got violent at the cops first. That’s not how people should be arrested for non-violent crimes.

    Apparently that’s what happened … reports are she took a swing at the cop after giving him the finger. In any event, the police are permitted to restrain a person they are placing under arrest and they resist.

    There is no law against being in public without a mask.

    In a declared state of disaster, the directives of the Chief Health Office carry the weight of law. If what you are saying is true, then any fine for not wearing a mask could easily be overturned in a court of law. I suggest you give it a try if you are that certain.

    Neither of those are rights. If they were, you could file a lawsuit when you suffer from allergies or watch a sad movie.

    In Australia, we don’t have a Bill of Rights to turn to. But arguably, these are natural rights. But if not, then you have no complaint about the restrictions or the requirement to wear a mask.

    That’s factually incorrect, as demonstrated.

    You are free to not wear a mask. You can do that now – just walk down the street without a mask; no-one is stopping you – there are consequences if you get caught without one in the areas of restriction, but that is a risk you run. But the cops don’t forcibly put a mask on you. You are actively encouraged to wear a mask because no mask risks a fine for non-compliance with the Victorian CHO directives, but you are not forced at gunpoint to wear a mask, nor do you give up your rights as a citizen if you don’t wear a mask.

  70. Archivist

    In Australia, we don’t have a Bill of Rights to turn to. But arguably, these are natural rights.

    You don’t understand what rights are.
    You don’t have a “natural right” to be healthy.
    Otherwise (by your absurd logic), every time you get sick, that’s a rights violation. Try again.

    You are free to not wear a mask. You can do that now – just walk down the street without a mask; no-one is stopping you – there are consequences if you get caught without one in the areas of restriction,

    You don’t understand what freedom is.
    Here’s a simple starting point: if it’s against the law, you’re not free to do it.
    Some people cling to a twisted, distorted version of the principle that “actions have consequences” in order to pretend that reductions in freedom are not, in fact, reductions in freedom.

    (“hey, you’re still free to do it” *chuckle* “its just that there will be consequences if you do…” *snigger*)

  71. duncanm

    The BigBlueCat
    #3546544, posted on August 13, 2020 at 3:20 pm

    here’s a whole bunch of random, and legal, reasons to not wear a mask in Danistan.

    https://www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/face-coverings-covid-19#exceptions-for-not-wearing-a-face-covering

  72. duncanm

    I suggest victorians start wearing bandanas (aka. Antifa) over their mouths.

    It’s a legal face covering

    You can also use a scarf or bandana instead of a face covering.

  73. Chris M

    BigBlueCat = cop I thinking. Benefiting from the proceeds of human rights violations.

    Just cut a few holes in the mask and wear it, can breath OK and not be fined by the Stasi. Bonus points for putting anti-Dan slogans on it.

  74. The BigBlueCat

    Tim Neilson
    #3546525, posted on August 13, 2020 at 3:05 pm
    Do the right effing thing and wear that effing mask, and effing stay inside during the effing curfew – to do otherwise is selfish and dangerous, and puts your life, liberty and property at even greater risk.

    Absolutist statements like this exacerbate the problem.

    Since when is doing the right thing absolutist? See my response to Archivist – Victorians are free not to wear a mask, but the consequences of not wearing a mask in designated restricted areas carries a cost. And the reason to wear a mask is clear – it reduces (not elimnates) transmission of COVID-19 carried in aerosol droplets.

    Someone going for their run or walking their dog at 8.10 pm isn’t “dangerous” at all. In fact the converse is true – in built up areas forcing everyone to do their shopping etc. within a confined time setting is creating more crowding, and thus more near-interactions between people and thus increasing the (admittedly negligible) risk of further transmissions.

    I agree, the curfew is limiting, but as always it’s the majority that suffers from the minority’s stupidity. We hear of AirBnB parties, Macca’s runs, group gatherings, and other highly selfish behaviours given the restrictions and reasons we have them. As a lawyer yourself, you should know no-one is above the law.

    I think there’s a lot to be said for police discretion, and I hope they use their powers wisely and consider the additional risk they put on people when confronting them rather than letting them go. A single person walking their dog at 8:10pm to my mind is nowhere near the same risk than if 2 or more police officers front them about it. Better if he went out earlier.

    As for masks, a doctor who works for Vic state government admitted to me that making people wear masks out of doors when we’ve already got 1.5 metres social distancing rules in place is little more than a superstition.

    You and I both know there have been counter-claims about the efficacy of masks; I’ve read many studies for and against the proposition. For every doctor you put up, I can find one who will dispute them. But more recent RCT studies show their efficacy on COVID-19 borne on aerosol droplets from coughs and sneezes. Without a mask, aerosol droplets can eject up to 6 meters from the source – with masks, down to 20cm. It’s not about absolute protection, but minimisation of transmission. We all know a COVID-19 virus can pass through a mask – but COVID-19 is usually accompanied by the medium on which they ride – gross I know, but it’s phlegm and other junk we cough or sneeze out.

    But if you think that Dan’s regulations have anything to do with public health you’ve lost your critical faculties. The regulations are designed to provoke disobedience or catch out inadvertent non-compliance so Dan can blame ordinary citizens for his cockups.

    Maybe – I think anyone in his position needs to look at restricting interpersonal contact to reduce the spread, and it’s clear that the R-factor of COVID-19 is very high. The argument is of course that without restrictions we would be much worse off – at least by a factor of 4 and possibly by a factor of 15. He probably is deflecting the blame somewhat – but an independent enquiry into his actions should sort that out, as should the ballot box next election.

    At the end of the day, people do have personal responsibilities in a time of pandemic to act with due care in response to the potential for transmitting the virus, and without some form of regulation you should expect the full spectrum of responses, most of which will be “no response”. Which is what the numpties are doing.

    My view on the regs is that getting fined several hundred dollars to make a “statement” would be counterproductive – just playing into Dan’s hands by giving him another scapegoat. And I wouldn’t set out to break a regulation in any case. But I’ve got no time for this nonsense that we have to worship Dan’s voodoo gods and boogeymen.

    I agree about worshipping Dan’s voodoo gods and bogeymen (not that I fully understand what you mean by that). Chairman Dan’s problem is his history and his ideology. If we actually had a true libertarian or centre-right alternative, I’m not so sure they would be any different. As I have said, the restrictions are less about left versus right politics, but more about authoritarian versus Lasseiz-faire. COVID-19 is serious stuff, and we should take it seriously.

  75. The BigBlueCat

    Chris M
    #3546641, posted on August 13, 2020 at 4:29 pm
    BigBlueCat = cop I thinking. Benefiting from the proceeds of human rights violations.

    No, not a cop. Or a lawyer. Or a politician. Please point to the human rights violations of which you speak.

    Just cut a few holes in the mask and wear it, can breath OK and not be fined by the Stasi. Bonus points for putting anti-Dan slogans on it.

    Yeah, like that will slow down viral transmissions …. and the cops. Try again.

  76. The BigBlueCat

    duncanm
    #3546617, posted on August 13, 2020 at 4:12 pm
    The BigBlueCat
    #3546544, posted on August 13, 2020 at 3:20 pm

    here’s a whole bunch of random, and legal, reasons to not wear a mask in Danistan.

    https://www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/face-coverings-covid-19#exceptions-for-not-wearing-a-face-covering

    All perfectly good reasons not to. I never said there weren’t exemptions. But if you are required to, you should. If you just don’t want to because “rights”, go ahead, don’t wear it. Just be prepared for any consequences if stopped by a cop and if you have no reason to exempt you, and especially if you don’t identify yourself and then resist the subsequent arrest. I certainly don’t advocate any vigilante actions against non-mask-wearers.

  77. Chris M

    Yeah, like that will slow down viral transmissions …. and the cops. Try again.

    What does that mean, you think it’s illegal also? Think these cheap masks stop airborne virus? Definitely with holes it’s a positive to your health – no CO2 buildup = better blood oxygenation, full lung function and no dental damage.

  78. The BigBlueCat

    Chris M
    #3546679, posted on August 13, 2020 at 5:03 pm
    Yeah, like that will slow down viral transmissions …. and the cops. Try again.

    What does that mean, you think it’s illegal also? Think these cheap masks stop airborne virus? Definitely with holes it’s a positive to your health – no CO2 buildup = better blood oxygenation, full lung function and no dental damage.

    I advocate for proper masks used properly to reduce the aerosol spread. Other than solid barriers and very specialised masks, nothing stops airborne virus, but greatly reduces the aerosol spread – from 6m down to 20cm, and the recipient of the COVID-19 aerosol more than likely trapping it in their mask. Masks are about reducing transmission, not eliminating it. But reducing transmission to a level where COVID-19 infection rates become controllable for the ICU units having to deal with it.

    The right masks used properly and for up to an hour shouldn’t result in CO2 buildup – unless you can cite a research paper that says otherwise, I seriously doubt anyone is at risk of what you are saying. Even proper masks can be uncomfortable, but they aren’t life- or health-threatening to my knowledge.

    And yes, the DHHS has guidelines for masks – if the mask you use does not meet the guidelines you may be at risk of receiving or transmitting the virus. Or a fine. Why would you run the risk? Just to be “clever”? To “prove” a point? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    BTW – early on I hated the idea of masks and felt I had very good reasons to avoid mandatory mask-wearing (mostly “rights” and “liberty” – so I can relate to that side of the argument). But with some research via Google Scholar, I concluded that more recent research papers involving RCT studies and COVID-19 specifically were more likely to be correct than not when it comes to the issue of aerosol transmissions of the virus and the use of proper masks to reduce the aerosol spread (and therefore the transmission). But it takes everyone to wear them where social contact can be high.

    Most people object to masks because of “rights” and “freedom” and “bloody government” without considering the unbiased scientific research (like I did). Then they use their own biases to support and promote older scientific studies that have limited relevance to suit their argument. I have no skin in the game other than wanting to see COVID-19 risk reduced to a level where it can be controlled and (if possible) eliminated. Then we can all get on with our lives. It’s not a game – COVID-19 is serious stuff.

  79. Leo G

    I advocate for proper masks used properly to reduce the aerosol spread.

    Even the best surgical masks are useless for reducing aerosol spread, and cloth masks are worse than useless. In fact, they can act to aerosolise virions which may be in droplets retained by the

    There were are number of studies around 2015 examining the efficacy of surgical and other medical masks. Most reported that masks gave no protection against virus infection.

    Thee Lancet Respiratory Medicine journal (and yes, I know the publication has recently been embarrassed by publishing a bogus study on HCQ effectiveness in treating COVID) pubished an editorial comment that though “universal face mask use in the community has also been discouraged with the argument that face masks provide no effective protection against coronavirus infection …it would be reasonable to suggest vulnerable individuals avoid crowded areas and use surgical face masks rationally when exposed to high-risk areas.”</em
    Rational use of surgical masks in Victoria amounts to ritual scourging the public for the sins of government.

  80. Archivist

    Most people object to masks because of “rights” and “freedom” and “bloody government” without considering the unbiased scientific research (like I did)

    Masks work, as far as I can see. We agree on that.

    Where we don’t agree:
    * your rather ignorant statement that health and happiness are “natural rights” (they’re simply not);
    * that making something illegal doesn’t remove your freedom to engage in that activity (it does);
    * and that non-violent criminals should be arrested with the use of violent force (they shouldn’t).

  81. Leo G

    your rather ignorant statement that health and happiness are “natural rights” (they’re simply not);

    Health and happiness may not clearly be natural rights implied by God’s commandments, but surely are negative rights independent of customary or statutary laws and thereby natural rights under most political philosophies.

  82. Archivist

    If health is a natural right then, by your absurd logic, when you get sick your rights have been violated. Stop using words and phrases you don’t understand.

  83. Tim Neilson

    Since when is doing the right thing absolutist?

    To take an example, failure to wear a mask when out of doors and 50 metres or more away from any other human being is not “right” at law at present, but there’s no moral imperative to wear a mask in that circumstance because not doing it doesn’t carry any risk of harming any other human being. That’s why suggesting that we ought to give uncritical worship to Dan’s voodoo gods is absolutist.

    As a lawyer yourself, you should know no-one is above the law

    In theory – in Dan’s Victoria the practice falls well short. But if one takes seriously the idea of an obligation to obey the law:
    (a) one should also take seriously the idea of a responsibility on law makers to exercise their powers carefully; and
    (b) one oughtn’t to feel the slightest obligation to join the cheer squad for grotesquely oppressive laws imposed by an incompetent jug-headed imbecile in a fit of sheer panic that he might be held accountable for his own catastrophic negligence, just because there is a real issue that could have been adequately addressed with much less suffocation of individuals’ legitimate expectations of freedom.

    I agree, the curfew is limiting, but as always it’s the majority that suffers from the minority’s stupidity

    Then why doesn’t the government make and enforce rules that actually target dangerous behaviour and allow citizens to engage in non-dangerous behaviour? Banning “AirBnB parties, Macca’s runs, group gatherings, and other highly selfish behaviours” simply doesn’t require the sort of deranged monomanic totalitarianism that the Hunchback et al are foisting on us.

    I think there’s a lot to be said for police discretion,
    It’s a necessary evil because it’s rarely possible to draft laws that define permissible and non-permissible acts precisely enough. But that’s no excuse for the Hunchback and his clown troupe to not even try, and just impose totally unnecessary restrictions on ordinary citizens. Selective non-enforcement of the text of the law is the royal road to tyranny, and the scope for police discretion needs to be kept as near zero as possible by making an effort to proscribe only what really needs to be proscribed. The UK did it much better – they banned being out without a reasonable excuse, listed certain prescribed reasonable excuses (each of which would be both an absolute defence and a guide to what else might be reasonable), and thus gave citizens, the police and the courts scope for some flexibility without creating a culture of selective non-enforcement of the text of the law. But the Hunchback wouldn’t dream of entrusting those ghastly ordinary people with even that limited degree of autonomy.

    At the end of the day, people do have personal responsibilities in a time of pandemic to act with due care

    Agreed, but I don’t think that the Hunchback’s edicts are just requiring “due care”, or are even designed to try to emulate that. The default setting is mindless totalitarianism, with a side benefit of turning reasonable citizens into scapegoats.

  84. Leo G

    If health is a natural right then, by your absurd logic, when you get sick your rights have been violated.

    According to John Locke and other political philosophers, the right to life is a fundamental natural right, we each have a right and a duty to preserve our life, and that right can’t be arbitrarily repealed by human laws.
    We each have a similar right to protect our health.
    “Getting sick” does not necessarily involve a violation of your natural rights unless you became sick as a consequence of an action by others who knowingly infringed your right to good health or by a law having the same effect.

  85. The BigBlueCat

    Leo G
    #3546792, posted on August 13, 2020 at 6:41 pm

    You are free to believe what you want. The recent RCT studies specific to COVID-19 I read said otherwise. I would also suggest that the CHO understands this better than you might. In the meantime, if you’re in Victoria and outside for a permitted activity and you have no exemption, you are required to wear a mask. I suggest a good one, and wear it properly. If you don’t wear a mask, have no exemption and are detected by the cops, good luck (you’ll need it).

    Tim Neilson
    #3546948, posted on August 13, 2020 at 9:52 pm

    Tim, I fully recognise you are more versed in the law than I. But given the state of emergency/disaster declared in Victoria, there are special powers enacted that make the CHO directives equivalent to law. The question is if the restrictions put in place are reasonable given the specific circumstances, knowing that the restrictions limit those freedoms we had before, and understanding the restrictions are not permanent. Given the rapid increase in cases, it is clear that something needed to be done. If nothing else, it has people’s attention.

    Why they didn’t target specific dangerous behaviours and allow other clearly low-risk behaviours is something Chairman Dan needs to answer. While I am no ALP supporter, I want to see a return to fewer / no restrictions as soon as possible. But given the circumstances, I’m not confident a Liberal state government would have done anything differently, and they’re not putting their heads up to say so.

    As for police violence in arresting anti-maskers and others – the evidence is becoming clear that they have been refusing to provide name and address (which is a reasonable police request) and then on being arrested for not following a reasonable instruction from police they have resisted (sometimes violently). The anti-maskers have chosen the wrong way to fight this (in my view), and I think they know that trying to cast the police in a negative light is the only tactic they have to draw attention to their cause.

    I am a bit surprised about the lack of groundswell opposition towards the restrictions – I don’t know if that’s the media downplaying it, or the resistance is pretty meek or uncoordinated. The anti-mask rally seemed to fizzle quickly with very few people prepared to stand up and be counted.

  86. Archivist

    If health is a natural right then, by your absurd logic, when you get sick your rights have been violated.

    According to John Locke and other political philosophers, the right to life is a fundamental natural right, we each have a right and a duty to preserve our life, and that right can’t be arbitrarily repealed by human laws.

    Not the same thing. But even if they are: the state is not ‘arbitrarily repealing’ your health by allowing someone else to walk around maskless.

    The blockhead crew above also claimed that “happiness” is a natural right. If that was the case (according to your ridiculous logic), then sad songs infringe your rights because they remove your happiness.

  87. Archivist

    I am a bit surprised about the lack of groundswell opposition towards the restrictions – I don’t know if that’s the media downplaying it, or the resistance is pretty meek or uncoordinated.

    Without some kind of institutional support or mainstream media support, I don’t know what ‘groundswell opposition’ would even look like, or how it could possibly get traction.

  88. Leo G

    You are free to believe what you want. The recent RCT studies specific to COVID-19 I read said otherwise. I would also suggest that the CHO understands this better than you might.

    And you, of course, understand better than the Chief Health Officer of Victoria.
    My training in PPE related to hazardous materials and to some extent the testing of protective equipment. The doesn’t mean I am expert, merely well-informed. My comments were based on my experience and on my reading of recent medical and scientific publications.
    I note that recent review articles indicate there have been very few randomised controlled trials of surgical masks or cloth masks. Most studies recommend the use of masks in specific high risk situations and recommend they not be used otherwise without proper consideration of the downside risks.
    It is quite obvious the medical authorities are employing a non-scientific “no-regrets” policy about the general use of surgical masks by untrained users in very low risk situations where personal distancing and hygiene measures without the improper use of masks is lower risk.
    If some people are not complying with social distancing and hygiene instructions, then that problem will not likely be improved by requiring all people to improperly use masks in urban areas.

  89. The BigBlueCat

    And you, of course, understand better than the Chief Health Officer of Victoria.

    No, but I consider his advice seriously.

    I note that recent review articles indicate there have been very few randomised controlled trials of surgical masks or cloth masks. Most studies recommend the use of masks in specific high risk situations and recommend they not be used otherwise without proper consideration of the downside risks.

    I agree, but there are RCT studies relating to mask efficacy for COVID-19. While a non-aerosol-borne virus will pass through a mask, those on aerosol droplets are mostly caught in the mask material. But proper use and disposal, followed by hand sanitation is required to maintain low transmission of the virus. It’s masks used properly plus social distancing that is effective, not masks alone.

    It is quite obvious the medical authorities are employing a non-scientific “no-regrets” policy about the general use of surgical masks by untrained users in very low risk situations where personal distancing and hygiene measures without the improper use of masks is lower risk.
    If some people are not complying with social distancing and hygiene instructions, then that problem will not likely be improved by requiring all people to improperly use masks in urban areas.

    I agree, but how do you know if that person coughing and sneezing next to you (even if 1.5m away) is free from COVID-19. It’s a numbers game. Mandatory masks under certain circumstances (noting there are exceptions) aren’t the real “liberty” issue – things like curfews and travel restrictions are more of a concern to my thinking.

    Without some kind of institutional support or mainstream media support, I don’t know what ‘groundswell opposition’ would even look like, or how it could possibly get traction.

    Where’s the social media outrage? The websites? The efforts to write emails? The masks with messages on them? All we hear of are the few anti-maskers resisting arrest. I suspect there is little traction and won’t be unless the Stage 4 restrictions are extended. People seem to be more outraged because “Chairman Dan” rather than anything else it seems to me (and that might be fair enough given his record). Of course, there are media reports relating to the economic impacts of the shutdown, but not of masks. We need to get out of this situation quickly.

    The blockhead crew above also claimed that “happiness” is a natural right. If that was the case (according to your ridiculous logic), then sad songs infringe your rights because they remove your happiness.

    Some people like sad songs. But are you saying you don’t have a right to be happy? Hhhhmmmm. While we’re not subject to the US Declaration of Independence, it says “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” So somewhere in the world the right to pursuing happiness has been enshrined in a document, along with life and liberty.

    I agree though, that if something makes you unhappy, that should not be something for a legal remedy. S18C of the RDA comes to mind – it should be amended. But regardless, the pursuit of happiness seems to be a right, and therefore you can conclude that happiness is at least something that has “worth”. I’m ok to be corrected and modify “right to happiness” to “right to pursue happiness”.

    Article 25 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights speaks to “health rights”, albeit in relation to a right to “a standard of living adequate for health and well-being”. But not a right to be healthy as such.

  90. Rob

    Why is he wearing black? Anyone care to answer?

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