HCQ – an immorality tale

A fascinating discussion of the politicisation of HCQ with this as part of a very long story told here: Hydroxychloroquine: A Morality Tale by Dr Norman Doige.

No one wants to enter cancel-culture territory but this brings him close. He nevertheless describes what happens after Trump stated that HCQ might be beneficial in treating Covid.

Trump’s political base cheered for HCQ and his opponents booed and accused him of practicing medicine without a license—and began dredging up any evidence, or “experts,” they could find, who might emphasize that HCQ was dangerous, or useless, or both, and thus they responded to his hyperbole with their own, and then some. As Risch observed in Newsweek, for many HCQ became “viewed as a marker of political identity, on both sides of the political spectrum.”

CNN began a nonstop campaign criticizing the safety of the drug, holding Trump responsible for three people who overdosed on it in Nigeria. Rivals went after Raoult, now tainted because Trump had mentioned his work. A New York Times profile depicted the scholar-physician as a Trump doppelganger, with his, “funny hair” and, being a man “who thinks almost everyone else is stupid,” who “is beloved by the angry and the conspiracy-minded.” Headlines such as, “Why does Trump call an 86-year-old unproven drug a game-changer against coronavirus?” were common. Stories began equating HCQ with Trump (“Trump’s drug”) and emphasized not only that it was dangerous, but that HCQ was old. And old was definitely not good. The implication was that far better than old was some new drug—that wasn’t yet invented, never mind tested—that might be in the utopian “pipeline” to the always better medical future.

What the media, and public health officials, did not report at the time was how poor people’s chances were should they go to hospital and need intensive care for the illness. Hospitals were finding that 80% of people put on mechanical ventilators died. All the commentators who railed that HCQ was “unproven” because there had been no randomized control trials (RCTs) didn’t mention that standard ventilation treatment for COVID-19, which had become treatment-as-usual overnight for severe cases, had no RCTs supporting it either. There was a double standard as far as HCQ was concerned.

Our poor protagonist, HCQ, could now go nowhere in a hyperpoliticized America without being hectored and called “Trump’s drug.” In the media, HCQ was now “touted,” “hyped,” and not “recommended” or “prescribed,” by the physicians who advocated for it. If someone took the do-it-yourself approach, as in the sad story of the Arizona man who, terrified out of his wits of the coronavirus, along with his wife, drank fish tank cleaner mixed with soda, because she had noticed it had among its ingredients, “chloroquine phosphate.” His death was blamed on “a chemical that has been hailed recently by President Trump …”

This was all happening at a moment when clinicians working 12- to 15-hour shifts, seven days a week with COVID patients, probably had more knowledge of the disease and its treatment than any studies could yet provide. During this first-wave HCQ-chastisement by the American media, a survey study of 6,200 frontline physicians in 30 countries showed that, worldwide, HCQ was chosen by the physicians, from among 15 options, as what they thought was the most effective treatment for patients (37% chose HCQ). The other drug the physicians thought highly of was azithromycin.

But in the United States, HCQ was embroiled in the Republican-Democratic rivalry. On March 12, Michigan State Representative Karen Whitsett, a Democrat representing the 9th Michigan House District in Detroit, went into quarantine for cornavirus symptoms, and by March 31 got her test results and was diagnosed with such a serious case of COVID-19 that she thought she was dying. She and her physician, Dr. Mohammed Arsiwala, sought permission to use HCQ but could not get it, because the Michigan Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs, under Democratic Governor Gretchen Whitmer, had issued an order prohibiting the use of HCQ for COVID-19.

The politics of HCQ are a tale of such sordid malevolence (see Daniel Andrews for a local example). Read the article if you have the time. As I say, it’s long, but this is what you find at the end.

A public health establishment, showing extraordinary risk aversion to medications and treatments that are extremely well-known, and had been used by billions, suddenly throwing caution to the wind and endorsing the roll-out of treatments that are entirely novel—and about which we literally can’t possibly know anything, as regards to their long-term effects. Their manufacturers know this well themselves, which is why they have aimed for, insisted on, and have already been granted indemnification—guaranteed, by those same public health officials and government that they will not be held legally accountable should their product cause injury.

From unheard of extremes of caution and “unwishful thinking,” to unheard of extremes of risk-taking, and recklessly wishful thinking, this double standard, this about-face, is not happening because this issue of public safety is really so complex a problem that only our experts can understand it; it is happening because there is, right now, a much bigger problem: with our experts, and with the institutions that we had trusted to help solve our most pressing scientific and medical problems. Unless these are attended to, HCQ won’t be remembered simply as that major medical issue that no one could agree on, and which left overwhelming controversy, confusion, and possibly unnecessary deaths of tens of thousands in its wake; it will be one of many in a chain of such disasters.

You do know it’s almost entirely about Trump and about almost nothing else.

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74 Responses to HCQ – an immorality tale

  1. Sinclair Davidson

    Has anyone tried leaches and bleeding?

  2. incoherent rambler

    Has anyone tried leaches and bleeding?

    On the patients or on the medical “experts”?

  3. rickw

    How does a small state in the arse end of nowhere end up banning HCQ in concert with fellow left wing travellers around the globe?

    Unprecedented intervention in Doctors decision making with respect to treatment by many Governments.

    Australian Doctors already voted with their feet on the issue, that’s why our HCQ stocks are so low.

  4. Sinclair Davidson

    On the patients or on the medical “experts”?

    Why not both?

  5. Leigh Lowe

    Sinclair Davidson

    #3550071, posted on August 17, 2020 at 11:26 am

    Has anyone tried leaches and bleeding?

    Yes, I lodged my return in late July and just got the notice of assessment.

    Not sure what that has to do with Kung Flu drugs, but.

  6. incoherent rambler

    On the patients or on the medical “experts”?

    Why not both?

    Comprise. Leeches for the patients and bleeding for the “experts”

  7. incoherent rambler

    Compromise. FFS

  8. Terry

    ‘…as in the sad story of the Arizona man who, terrified out of his wits of the coronavirus, along with his wife, drank fish tank cleaner mixed with soda, because she had noticed it had among its ingredients, “chloroquine phosphate.”’

    Bullshit!

  9. Bruce of Newcastle

    The politicization by the Left of science and medicine is yet another evil by them.

    Doctors Pen Open Letter To Fauci Regarding The Use Of Hydroxychloroquine for Treating COVID-19 (15 Aug)

    As experience accrued in treating COVID-19 infections, physicians worldwide discovered that high-risk patients can be treated successfully as an outpatient, within the first 5 to 7 days of the onset of symptoms, with a “cocktail” consisting of hydroxychloroquine, zinc, and azithromycin (or doxycycline). Multiple scholarly contributions to the literature detail the efficacy of the hydroxychloroquine-based combination treatment.

    The Left aren’t treating us with leeches, they are the leeches. Bloodsuckers.

  10. nb

    ‘sordid malevolence’
    The phrase is good, but ‘strategic malevolence’ might better describe the anti-human campaign. These people are, in general, not bright, but it does not preclude them from some level of deliberated calumny.

  11. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Has anyone tried leaches and bleeding?

    does it involve being tied up?

  12. Chris M

    Has anyone tried leaches and bleeding?

    Both are beneficial medically and are treatments still in use by doctors but mostly likely not for Wuhan virus.

  13. Terry

    It is truly amazing (astounding even) that the same crowd that preaches the [misunderstood and mis-applied] “precautionary principle” on “Climate Change™” has no interest in providing (or even allowing) the use of a cocktail of (very) cheap drugs, with minimal to no side-effects, for treatment of patients that without that treatment, face the prospect of progressing to a cytokine storm and very high prospect of dying on a ventilator.

    Now that the demand for ventilators has significantly diminished, perhaps we can turn those manufacturing enterprises over to gallows and guillotine production – there’s going to be a massive shortage very soon.

  14. BM

    Has anyone tried leaches and bleeding?

    The leeches have been bleeding us dry for a long time.

    That’s pretty much why we’re in this mess.

  15. Chris M

    It is truly amazing (astounding even)

    Not any more, it’s not about the virus it’s a Marxist takeover and they are malevolent.

    Dunno about gallows and all, just give them a big mega dose and withhold medications for their own safety. Compulsory mask only.

  16. Docket62

    You do know it’s almost entirely about Trump and about almost nothing else.

    And on the basis of TDS, tens of thousands of people have been consigned to death by Covid merely because they chose the wrong time to die.

    If nothing else comes of HCQ, every Government worldwide who stopped its use, should face charges of crimes against humanity, and the politicians jailed.

  17. John A

    Sinclair Davidson #3550081, posted on August 17, 2020, at 11:39 am

    On the patients or on the medical “experts”?

    Why not both?

    I thought the Westminster system held the politicians accountable…as well.

  18. pat

    includes Switzerland/HCQ:

    Youtube: 7m19s: 16 Aug: Sky News Australia: Outsiders: Rowan Dean: History to vindicate Sweden & Switzerland covid-19 strategy…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDuDdKTZf_Q

    Swiss data (scroll down):

    13 Jul: FranceSoir: Covid-19: hydroxychloroquine works, a proof?
    http://www.francesoir.fr/societe-sante/covid-19-hydroxychloroquine-works-irrefutable-proof

  19. Bruce

    That HCQ has been in widespread use against Malaria for decades seems to have been thoroughly scrubbed from the “official” record.

    HCQ is essentially synthetic Quinine.

    You know, the quinine that is found in lots of things, including a proper Gin and Tonic.

  20. Mother Lode

    And didn’t it all start with Trump merely saying HCQ looked promising?

    He wasn’t saying that it was definitively the answer.

    The left has been content to denounce HCQ as being pharmacologically useless and at the same time toxic.

    All because Trump mentioned it.

  21. Catcalling Inebriate

    The author could have looked up HCQ research. He would have found, for example, that the WHO lists under mythbusters the fact that HCQ is of any use in COVID-19 infection. (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/myth-busters?gclid=Cj0KCQjwsuP5BRCoARIsAPtX_wG-LC67a-OmTNjGiF2GQBy2ANCROjZc-j1BLo4f3xzQqvEHCTCd1IIaAkboEALw_wcB). Johns Hopkins says there is no evidence of HCQ benefit in COVID (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/newsroom/news-releases/covid-19-story-tip-hydroxychloroquine-not-recommended-for-treatment-of-covid-19) Bonus quote :”“Patients infected with COVID-19 often have compromised heart and vascular systems, and receive other drugs that can interact with hydroxychloroquine and can put patients at increased risk of arrhythmias or irregular heartbeats,” says cardiologist Oscar Cingolani, M.D., associate professor of medicine at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. “These cardiovascular side effects in some COVID patients aren’t often seen in patients receiving the drug for other purposes like autoimmune disorders, so therefore the safety observed in these other patients can’t be inferred for COVID-19 patients.”
    I suppose you could ask a Democrat or Republican or someone from CNN or Breitbart. Personally, I like to ask people with knowledge of health and science.

  22. Mother Lode

    He would have found, for example, that the WHO lists under mythbusters the fact that HCQ is of any use in COVID-19 infection.

    Well, the WHO has been consistently making the right calls so far, I suppose.

    But we could just go to the source and ask the Chinese government what they think.

  23. Professor Fred Lenin

    Has anyone consulted the indigenius elders yet? With their 600,000 years in Australia and an advanced society (a la Pommy Pascoe ) surely they should have some input to the Chinese Biowar Virus treatment .
    Wuhan Dan the China Man should go to see them early one morning ,before the bottleshops open , he migh learn summink .

  24. Professor Fred Lenin

    Hasanyone checked if people who had HCQfor malaria have contracted the Chinese Biowar Virus ?
    Just a line of investgstion that should be looked at .

  25. Paul

    The FDA restricted usage of HCQ on 22March this year, and the TGA followed suit on 24March, along with a lot of other countries who follow US classifications.
    In both cases, explanations were ostensibly to preserve stocks for existing users, so some people already knew of its potential for other uses. And, this was two months before Trump’s announcement.

    FDA is one third funded by Pharmaceutical companies, which, of itself, may be unavoidable, but increases the possibility for poor decision making.
    HCQ is out of any sort of Patent, it’s a preventative, not a cure, and costs cents not tens of dollars per treatment. It may not serve the purposes of companies who can make billions out of a vaccine.
    Evidence of actual onground reports about its efficacy are being ignored or besmirsched by the bureaucrats, while there is very little evidence of onground experience in any of the bureaucratic dogpiles.

    HCQ is best explained as a preventative and is the best most logical reason Trump took it, not by looking it up on Google, but by the advice of his doctor. Maybe his doctor should have been arrested for attempted assassination???.
    The rare and late experimentation with it was conducted on late term patients and failed, the same as an Aspirin might fail with a brain aneurism.
    There may well be a crime against humanity in here somewhere, as to how this simple medication came to be demonised.
    Even in Victoria’s case, it’s use may well have saved over half the Nursing home deaths, with NO ill effects for early use. I have written to my local member about it but she preferred a form letter response.

  26. Terry

    The most common side effects are:
    * headache
    * dizziness
    * drowsiness, fatigue, and restless sleep
    * thirst and sweating
    * tingling or numbness in hands and feet
    * ringing in the ears
    * blurred vision and eye irritation
    * fluid retention and ankle swelling
    * mild allergic reaction
    * abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, heartburn, diarrhoea, and constipation
    bladder irritation and pain, frequent urination.
    * can increase the risk of heart attack or stroke in people with or without heart disease or the risk factors for heart disease.

    The drug being described is, of course, Ibuprofen

  27. Peter Smith

    The fact is we will never know what would have happened with HCQ if Trump had not mentioned it.
    I would rate his mentioning of it as possibly the biggest mistake he has made in office. (Maybe his only mistake of consequence.) It might have robbed tens of thousands of people of their lives. That is not necessarily to say that HCQ works effectively or not – though it has been used by many doctors who say that it does when applied in early course. It is to say that most of the political, media and medical establishment lost any semblance of scientific open-mindedness and became intent on showing that it didn’t work. Not good medical science methinks. Not good for the sick.

  28. Mitch M.

    It is to say that most of the political, media and medical establishment lost any semblance of scientific open-mindedness and became intent on showing that it didn’t work. Not good medical science methinks. Not good for the sick.

    In the USA alone there are over 50 trials currently underway exploring HCQ as a treatment option. In 6 weeks the results of the HCQ+zinc should be available. Governments have banned it because Trump’s mentioning it led to the perception it must be a wonder drug and many will do anything to get their hands on it. You’re right, he should have kept quiet.

  29. Mother Lode

    I would rate his mentioning of it as possibly the biggest mistake he has made in office.

    I agree.

    Trump should always consult the left to see what they won’t politicise and lie about before he does anything.

    And in other news, Israel has declared that they will not retaliate when the Palis lob rockets over the border and kill Isreali men, women and children so as to protect the kids in the schools and playgrounds that the Palis launch from.

    There are a whole lot of institutions that are, pardon the pun, sick. The HCQ debacle is merely a symptom. (more puns). Putting plasters to cover the pustules leave them to fester and the problem get worse – all for the sake of not provoking the gruesome opportunism of the Democrats.

  30. Penny

    I just hope these political health advisers and Scott Morrison, Greg Hunt Daniel Andrews and that twerp of a health advisor ( don’t recall his name ) who said when questioned about HCQ said “the jury is out, it doesn’t work” that their day of reckoning comes soon as they have allowed people to get sick and die for political reasons

  31. Paul

    Senator Ron Johnson covered off on this in Steve Bannon’s War room on HCQ, long but rivetting. He was asked ehy Trump had gone quiet on HCQ, and the answer was basically that. If he continued to mention it, even more people would die from the blow back

  32. Lee

    In the USA alone there are over 50 trials currently underway exploring HCQ as a treatment option. In 6 weeks the results of the HCQ+zinc should be available.

    Apparently a number of tests with HCQ have been carried out without the use of zinc as well, which pretty well guarantees that it won’t work as a cure for Covid-19.
    If that was done deliberately it suggests the tests were rigged to get the failed result wanted.

  33. Mitch M.

    Lee
    #3550282, posted on August 17, 2020 at 4:34 pm
    In the USA alone there are over 50 trials currently underway exploring HCQ as a treatment option. In 6 weeks the results of the HCQ+zinc should be available.

    Apparently a number of tests with HCQ have been carried out without the use of zinc as well, which pretty well guarantees that it won’t work as a cure for Covid-19.
    If that was done deliberately it suggests the tests were rigged to get the failed result wanted.

    At present we don’t know what is the best treatment so options are on the table. When I looked at a meta-analysis for SARS and MERS the best treatments by far were steroids + antivirals but in this instance most people only hear about HCQ. It is just plain wrong to be so focused on one treatment without considering all the possible treatments. The focus on HCQ is actually creating a perverse situation where some people think it is the only viable treatment.

  34. Astatine Jones

    Plenty of evidence against, plenty neutral and an increasing amount supporting use of HCQ at low dosage, early application in the treatment of Covid-19. Some investigations better than others, some useless, some flawed. Cases of fraud? I don’t know.

    Unfortunately in a time of medical crisis, the gold standard double blind experiment to test the effectiveness of a drug is difficult if not impossible to perform.

    Utility of a drug against one disease doesn’t necessarily confer clinical effect against another, especially if they are very different. HCQ has application against Malaria (protozoan parasite) and because it’s an anti-rheumatic drug, it’s also used for Lupus (an autoimmune disease). For a viral infection? Maybe useful is the only scientifically valid starting point.

    Medical controversy over the use of HCQ has much more to do with the fact that Covid-19 is a new disease and the very cautious approach taken by the medical profession regarding the use of any drug rather than Left vs Right or what Donald Trump says or thinks.

  35. cohenite

    There is overwhelming evidence HCQ works; the tests showing it doesn’t are all flawed or fraudulent. The left particularly the media have politicised the chunk virus to the detriment of Western economies and have directly caused the deaths of many people.

    The left just play this game better. Look at nien; it has deliberately forfeited a conservative base for ad revenue. It is now just another left wing media outlet. Until conservatives own the media and have leaders with courage gramsci march will continue.

  36. Chris M

    You’re right, he should have kept quiet.

    Why should he (Trump) have kept quiet?

  37. Astatine Jones

    There is overwhelming evidence HCQ works; the tests showing it doesn’t are all flawed or fraudulent.
    Evidence yes – for, neutral and against. Some testing flawed. Don’t know about fraud though. Double blind testing difficult if not impossible in time of medical crisis.

    Medical controversy over the use of HCQ has much more to do with the fact that Covid-19 is a new disease and the very cautious approach taken by the medical profession regarding the use of any drug rather than Left vs Right or what Donald Trump says or thinks.

  38. Catcalling Inebriate

    So, no one here thinks WHO or Johns Hopkins knows better than they whether HCQ is viable? I suppose that if Trump says a gallon of turdwash is a cure, you’ll be down to the dunny?

  39. cohenite

    I suppose that if Trump says a gallon of turdwash is a cure, you’ll be down to the dunny?

    There’s no room, you’re already there.

  40. Lee

    If WHO says that HCQ doesn’t work on coronavirus victims, then they must be right! (/sarc off)

  41. Tim Neilson

    So, no one here thinks WHO or Johns Hopkins knows better than they whether HCQ is viable? I suppose that if Trump says a gallon of turdwash is a cure, you’ll be down to the dunny?

    I wouldn’t trust the WHO. I’d trust Johns Hopkins in relation to what it actually says, i.e. that people with heart conditions can be worse off with HCQ, and that there’s no large scale clinical trials validating it for COVID 19.
    But that doesn’t mean HCQ should be banned for COVID 19. I’d rather that properly qualified doctors were able to form their own view about their own patients, and if they’re convinced by the anecdotal evidence about HCQ and zinc (not expressly mentioned in the Johns Hopkins article), and assess the side effect risks, they can choose to prescribe it.

  42. old bloke

    Peter Smith
    #3550266, posted on August 17, 2020 at 4:09 pm

    The fact is we will never know what would have happened with HCQ if Trump had not mentioned it.

    Nope, anecdotal reports of HCQ’s efficacy had been spreading on the internet well before Trump’s comments. One very early report, in early February, was from a Doctor in France who claimed that it saved all of his Peking Pox patients.

  43. Paul

    WHO is unequivocally discredited.
    Johns Hopkins can’t spell ZINK, so they left it out of their research. Feel free to disprove that.

  44. feelthebern

    HCQ.
    Another Rorschach test.

  45. Lee

    and if they’re convinced by the anecdotal evidence about HCQ and zinc (not expressly mentioned in the Johns Hopkins article),

    Using HCQ on coronavirus patients without zinc is about as helpful or useful as a vehicle without wheels.
    But, hey, if you want to “prove” something doesn’t work, leave out an essential ingredient.

  46. EllenG

    This whole story is about republicans v Democrats. Why is anyone talking about medicine? Seriously.

  47. Kneel

    “Why should he (Trump) have kept quiet?”

    Then he could be blamed for not talking about it soon enough – same as closing borders.

  48. Ozman

    Catcalling Inebriate
    #3550217, posted on August 17, 2020 at 2:49 pm
    Personally, I like to ask people with knowledge of health and science.….

    Or just go alone with Bill Gates, the expert about population reduction.

    Bill Gates says hydroxychloroquine has ‘severe side effects,’

    No longer considered trustworthy, the once prestigious medical publications, Lancet and NEJM had to both withdraw the flawed results of specious tests that claimed hydroxychloroquine was ineffective in the treatment of COVID-19.

    Iatrogenesis exists. Go and ask your medical expert how to cure it.

    Clown!

    Only it is not funny preventing people from having a proven safe prophylaxis and following the advice of medical doctors who have numerous case histories of hundreds of patients recovering from COVID-19 from taking hydroxychloroquine with zinc or azithromycin or both.

    If you are interested in data and not just being a murderer and making a fool of yourself commenting on what you obviously know very little about, for starters, you might do well to consider what Chris Martenson has to say. Chris Martenson holds a PhD degree in pathology from Duke University in 1994 and an MBA degree from Cornell University in 1998. He followed a post-doctoral program at Duke University, where he specialized in neurotoxicology. Martenson is a fellow of the Post Carbon Institute

  49. A C Osborn

    It is not just about TDS.
    It is also about shed loads of cash to be made with new drugs and vaccines.
    There is no money to be made from HCQ or Ivermectin or Doxycycline (best used together) or Dexamethasone or Avigan or interferon or Lenzilumab or Nitric Oxide or Vitamins C, D, B12 and Zinc.
    They are all older drugs/treatments and well established and mostly very cheap.

  50. Iampeter

    The politics of HCQ are a tale of such sordid malevolence

    Gotta love the lack of self awareness from Trump supporters who politicized HCQ and are then projecting their own behavior onto everyone else.
    Of course this is to be expected from people who support the biggest spending President in history, who won office by promising to centrally plan the economy, but still call others “the left.”

  51. Terry

    ‘Trump supporters who politicized HCQ’
    ‘love the lack of self awareness’
    ‘projecting their own behavior onto everyone else’
    Does the troll realise it is an ironic troll?

  52. Terry

    The only question that is relevant for HCQ is: “Is it safe to use?”

    The answer to that is unequivocally, YES!

    The drug is very cheap and has a long history of safe use with known side-effects (very few).

    Whether it is effective or not against SARS CoV-2 and/or COVID-19 is of secondary importance. We can prove or disprove its effectiveness with controlled studies without denying the drug combination to those that might die without it.

    If a Doctor or Patient believes it can be helpful (proven or not) and it does little or no harm, then it is immoral to ban it. Those exceeding their moral authority should be held to account (1. Removed from public positions of authority; and 2. Prosecuted)

  53. Iampeter

    The drug is very cheap and has a long history of safe use with known side-effects (very few).

    Same thing can be said about a lot of drugs that could also help with COVID so why are Trump supporters only talking about HCQ? Almost like you’ve politicized it or something…

    This is just the usual pattern of Trump blunders, saying something he shouldn’t have, then doubling and tripling down when called out on it.

    I can see why you guys like him.

  54. Terry

    ‘only talking about HCQ?’
    No one (except Leftards) is only talking about Hydroxychloroquine (eg Ivermectin)

    The politicisation is due to “Trump Derangement Syndrome”, not Trump.

    Hence, we’ve seen Leftards the world over, heads exploding, propagandising a completely safe drug as “dangerous”; because what’s a few (tens of thousands) more deaths to the glorious Socialists – the ends justifies the means, baby!
    #orangemanbad

  55. Kneel

    “This is just the usual pattern of Trump blunders, saying something he shouldn’t have…”

    So what was it he said that was “wrong”?
    “[HCQ] Looks promising”? – It did and does. Brought to the attention of many medicos because he talked about it.

    Or is this just more along the same lines as “no wall” – ie, ignoring reality.

  56. Tim Neilson

    Same thing can be said about a lot of drugs that could also help with COVID so why are Trump supporters only talking about HCQ?

    Because no-one’s trying to ban anything else. See, in government, or any other exercise of responsibility for that matter, there’s a thing called “results”. I know this will be impossible for you to understand, but – trust me – people who are actually competent to make decisions tend to focus on things that need to be changed (or protected from undesirable change), not things that don’t need to be changed and aren’t under any threat of being changed. That’s because, unlike you, they want to achieve that thing called a “result”, rather than just fellating themselves in self-adulation about their supposed insightfulness.

  57. Iampeter

    The politicisation is due to “Trump Derangement Syndrome”, not Trump.

    But Trump brought it up…

    more deaths to the glorious Socialists – the ends justifies the means, baby!
    #orangemanbad

    Gotta love Trump supporters calling others out for being socialists.

  58. Paul

    Tim Neilson
    You fooled me by starting to talk about HCQ, then segueing on to masks.
    On governments, the only result they want is re-election, and their hapless underlings, well, a pat on the head will do.
    Neville Chamberlain down here in Victoria believes fear will get him the result he wants. It’s his only tool.
    But if an actual leader turns up, and there aren’t many around, the voters may get some courage too.

  59. Rex Anger

    But Trump brought it up… 😢

    Fixed it for you IamDesperateToGetARiseOutOfSomeone…

    And a you, as a fascist calling believers in democratic process and civil society socialists is one of your sillier projections, IamBenito’sLovechild…

    Now enjoy your lockdown while it lasts. It is everything you’ve ever wanted…

  60. Catcalling Inebriate

    Ozman: conveniently you ignore the fact I referred to both WHO and Johns Hopkins. I would also cite the fact that no country experiencing the virus has so far sought to apply your medical advice. Which would suggest that every government and health authority in the world is in on your conspiracy. Or that you’re wrong.

  61. Astatine Jones

    HCQ. Plenty of evidence against, plenty neutral and some (perhaps an increasing amount) supporting early application use of HCQ at low dosage in the treatment of Covid-19. Some investigations better than others, some useless, some flawed. Cases of fraud? I don’t know but there’s not much evidence for fraud other than conspiracy theory.

    Unfortunately in a time of medical crisis, the gold standard double blind experiment to test the effectiveness and associated side effects of a drug is difficult if not impossible to perform. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, especially in the medical profession.

    Utility of a drug against one disease doesn’t necessarily confer clinical effect against another, especially if they are very different. HCQ has application against Malaria (protozoan parasite) and because it’s an anti-rheumatic drug, it’s also used for Lupus and Arthritis (autoimmune diseases). For a viral infection? Maybe useful is the only scientifically valid starting point.

    Medical controversy over the use of HCQ has a lot more to do with the fact that Covid-19 is a new disease and the (necessarily) very cautious approach taken by the medical profession regarding the use of any drug – rather than Left vs Right or what Donald Trump says or thinks. But don’t take my word for it, simply Google (Scholar) ‘HCQ Covid-19’ and wade through all the studies. Unless of course, ‘medicine’ and ‘science’ are dirty words that you find offensive.

  62. Paul

    Catcalling Inebriate.
    Don’t be silly. Same reason they are completely blind about Sweden…. the political herd self protecting.
    If they break from their herd, they go straight onto the hunters menu.

  63. Astatine Jones

    Well I can’t believe my comment has not been published, despite several attempts. Probably because I associated the terms ‘medicine’ and ‘science’ and didn’t give Trump his dues. The trials and tribulations of being labelled a ‘concern troll’ (Rex Anger, can’t remember date of publ.) I guess. So I’ll change my tact. Yes, it’s all about Trump. In fact, I believe, with great authority, he was working with Surrey and Hammer as a promising young lab assistant at the Sterling-Winthrop Research Institute back in the day (1950) when they came up with the synthesis of HCQ. Responsible for the critical hydroxylation step, shades of Walter White. Undoubtedly deserves the next Nobel Prize in Chemistry, which I’m sure he’ll be happy to collect in Sweden after all this nonsense has just simply disappeared.

  64. John A

    Catcalling Inebriate #3551150, posted on August 18, 2020′ at 1:16 pm

    Ozman: conveniently you ignore the fact I referred to both WHO and Johns Hopkins. I would also cite the fact that no country experiencing the virus has so far sought to apply your medical advice. Which would suggest that every government and health authority in the world is in on your conspiracy? Or that you’re wrong.

    Incorrect. See Switzerland’s experience with both using and stopping using it, then resuming using it.

    Go back to the Morality Tale link and see for yourself that there was a direct cause and effect relationship with the Fatality Rate. And the same article carefully points out what the studies show about when it should be used ie. in the early phase of the viral attack on a person, from immediately when symptoms appear. The result is that the attack is blunted, the virus weakened, and the patient recovers more quickly (most in less than the 14-21 days usually ascribed).

    Using it with patients in the second stage, after the virus has thoroughly compromised their health, is a waste, and the patients die. But that is not the result of using HCQ, rather it is because their condition was already terminal.

  65. Astatine Jones

    Obviously I’ve been trollified and consequently banned from commenting on this article, so what more can I say but quote George Orwell:

    If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

  66. Paul

    Fresh from Zerohedge.
    Minnesota Democrat Governor Quietly Reverses Course On Hydroxychloroquine.
    The wonderful thing about US is that anyone can sue anyone.
    See my previous post.
    So maybe the whole herd will turn because someone is looking to sue someone over a preventable death.
    Keep your fingers crossed for what’s left of our elderly, but this could stop the needless deaths.

  67. Tel

    But Trump brought it up… 😢

    Wrong. Trump put together his team, very early in the outbreak, mid March approximately. They informed him and then Trump announced that Hydroxychloroquine was a drug that showed potential, based on a French researcher who had achieved promising results at that time. Earlier a Chinese team had also announced some promising results.

    https://www.truthorfiction.com/the-covid-19-chloroquine-controversy-explained/

    That was completely Trump’s job as POTUS to show leadership, assemble a team, help coordinate FDA early “emergency” approval and get information out to the American people. The media immediately politicized it, the moment Trump announced anything.

    Trump did not invent the idea … nor did he bring up the topic … he took the information that was available and assisted in bringing this potentially lifesaving drug to the American people.

  68. Ozman

    Tel, I read that article you provided. I note the author tries to be balanced. However, the fatality he mentions regarding the Phoenix couple became a homicide investigation. The wife had psychiatric issues and her husband’s death was ruled an accident.

    Anyhow, Ron Paul is thrilled that Trump has sidelined the corrupt Fauci and promoted Scott W. Atlas, MD, (the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center).

    Atlas wrote an oped in the Hill stating:
    Fact 1: The overwhelming majority of people do not have any significant risk of dying from COVID-19.  
    Fact 2: Protecting older, at-risk people eliminates hospital overcrowding. 
    Fact 3: Vital population immunity is prevented by total isolation policies, prolonging the problem. 
    Fact 4: People are dying because other medical care is not getting done due to hypothetical projections.  
    Fact 5: We have a clearly defined population at risk who can be protected with targeted measures.

  69. Astatine Jones

    Obviously I’ve been trollified and consequently banned from commenting on this article…

    Clearly not.
    But obviously I’m an impatient bugger….;-)
    I doff my hat to robust debate at the Cat.
    George would approve.
    Regards,
    AJ

  70. Iampeter

    Trump put together his team, very early in the outbreak, mid March approximately. They informed him and then Trump announced that Hydroxychloroquine was a drug that showed potential, based on a French researcher who had achieved promising results at that time. Earlier a Chinese team had also announced some promising results.

    Well, when you get things wrong you definitely like to do so on every level possible.
    Firstly, Trump didn’t put together a team early in the outbreak. That would’ve been in december 2019 when the CDC first brought this to his attention and he dismissed it as a “deep state plot.”
    Finally in March, three months too late to have any chance of containment, Trump finally and belatedly started taking some little action. Largely it was blocking the CDC from procuring tests, forcing them to “make in America,” along with his FDA blocking any private companies from production as well.
    The CDC’s needlessly rushed tests proved faulty, so Trump sidelined the CDC, as if this was their fault, and put Fauci in charge.
    He also gave insane press conferences, sounding like a complete crackpot, saying things like it was just 12 cases and would be zero next week. At this point the entire world panicked and we’ve been sitting in moronic lockdowns ever since.
    This has just been a small taste of what a world without American leadership looks like.
    Secondly, he only mentioned Hydroxychloroquine because he either has a financially stake in seeing it sold and so is corruptly using the office of the Presidency to profit himself yet again, or he simply randomly repeated what he heard at one of his briefings and tried sounding smarter than he actually is to the press. After beclowning himself like this again, he followed the usual pattern and doubled down.

    In short, you’ve got everything as backwards as possible and just like Trump you’ll be doubling and tripling down!

  71. Rex Anger

    Ermagerd! Evilbad Orange Man (Who is Evil and Bad and a Man. Which makes him Evil and Bad) dun everything wrong and it’s all his fault cos he’s bad and evil!

    Seriously IamGaslightingBiglyToday-DonotLightUpNearMe? So much farting and huffing and propaganda and overactive imgination from your little troll-sphincter this morning.

    Are you eating all your stockpiled beans today because they’re going off or something? I thought those things were rationed in Viktoristan?

    In short, you’ve got everything as backwards as possible and just like Trump you’ll be doubling and tripling down!

    You really need to stop with these admissions, IamHavingAnotherFreudianSlip. They do your cause no good at all…

  72. Paul

    In a world of “owned” politicians, leadership is rare, and the ability to identify it even rarer.
    Take Andrews, please take Andrews. who rules by fear, and laws to enforce it. That is not leadership.
    How is his outcome better or worse than almost anyone else. His problem now is just how long he can keep five million people irrationally afraid.
    Trump has stood as much as politically possible in front of his people, and encouraged them every step of the way. That’s a leaders job.

  73. Rex Anger

    Probably because I associated the terms ‘medicine’ and ‘science’ and didn’t give Trump his dues. The trials and tribulations of being labelled a ‘concern troll’ (Rex Anger, can’t remember date of publ.)

    Thank you for the shout-out, Metalloid Man. However, the reaction to your posting has nothing to do with PDT, except that the entire affair has been made to revolve around him. Not by you, nor the medical world. But by the various vested interests who cannot stand someone like him (or worse us plebes) being in charge.

    In an era in which facts, empirical data and its associated knowledge, and Truth itself are routinely and deliberately made subordinate to political agendas (Thankyou Marx and Thankyou Trotsky), anyone who brings an ‘official line’ or ‘right-thinking’ ideas into an environment full of at least partually informed contrarians and free-thinkers is going to draw flak. Case in point, spruiking the thoughts of a majority of ‘right-thinkig’ engineers, etc. about how to making green steel and hydrogen power is good for the environment and progress. And then digging in and dismissing the challengers to this idea. That is what draws tags like ‘Shill’ and ‘Concern Troll.’ We cannot be right all the time on all things.

    (As an aside, burning coal is burning coal is burning coal. Where you hide the ‘burning coal’ bit in an industrial process to make hydrogen, syngas, etc. to run your steel mill or your hybrid car to appease the feefees of the rich, stupid and goat-cheese eaters matters naught).

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