What do statistics have to do with it?

Now that we know almost every official number of Covid deaths is a gross exaggeration, continue with this from the front page of The Oz

Daniel Andrews is locking Victoria and the national economy into a long and ugly grind towards Christmas, with grave consequences for many businesses.

This is the depressing consequence of the severity of Victoria’s second wave.

No one wants to be here; the document that charts the way forward for Australia’s second-­biggest state is a horror show for tens of thousands of businesses employing millions of people.

The Andrews measures are even tougher than many were expecting. The business reaction has been blistering. And the political consequences will be lasting.

Right, so obviously what comes next is something along the lines of call off the dogs. I’m afraid not.

But anyone who has kept a serious eye on the coronavirus numbers will know the current infection rate is still too high to ­justify any significant reopening of the economy.

The infection rate!!! Not the death rate, which is trivial and focused on people of a certain age with an average of 2.6 “co-morbidities”. In the meantime, since nothing can be done about the fools, simpletons and hysterics running the place, it is obviously time to just lie back and enjoy it. Although I will endorse Robert Gottliebson’s view that A third mistake by Victoria will mean it’s time for intervention assuming there is some form of intervention. This is Victoria’s Captain Queeg moment but there will be no mutinies on the Good Ship Victoria. All doubters will be made to walk the plank.

BTW the official death rate in Victoria is 666 dead out of a population of 6.5 million, which comes to 0.01%, which is one death per 10,000.

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111 Responses to What do statistics have to do with it?

  1. stackja

    Someone, Twain?, said lies and statistics.

  2. Hay Stockard

    Dan Tse Tung. A prince of liars.

  3. Megan

    That’s what happens when the paid scribbler class cannot tell the bleeding obvious difference between someone’s nose swabs showing positive for Cov19 and an actual, hospitalized case.

    We have more ‘education’ than our ancestors could have dreamed of, yet overall we are dumber than rocks. And just as easy manipulated.

  4. Megan

    And yes, stackja, it was Twain who said that there are lies, damned lies and statististics

  5. incoherent rambler

    one (attributed) death per 10,000

  6. Judge Dredd

    666 – nothing to see here folks. When numbers like that get put up, it just becomes a joke.

  7. If every person in the state were tested, the covid positive rate would likely skyrocket. They know that and that this is not about covid, never has been. This is a test run.

  8. Bruce in WA

    The Australian seems to be having couple of bob each way on most issues, lately. Taking in opposing views even in the same article.

  9. yarpos

    Sure the death rate is low, but that is with draconian lock downs in place of course. You offer no viable alternative just a whine. Not a lockdown fan, just wondering how brave the critics would actually be if they were at the helm.

  10. stevem

    Ever since Sydney got 50 cases imported from Melbourne, the number has been edging downward. Yes there was a spike that threatened to go the way of Victoria, but strong contact tracing and pertinent information to the public has kept a lid on it.

    This proves a wildly expanding outbreak can be caught and stopped from 30-40 a day – with competent management. Waiting until zero cases per day for 2 weeks is purely draconian and stupid. Solid contact tracing would allow Victoria to open much sooner, rather than announcing late November (all going well).

    Everybody’s locked down, contacts are minimal to non-existent. Track those cases and open things up in weeks, not months. Not a whine, solution

  11. Boambee John

    stevem

    Solid contact tracing would allow Victoria to open much sooner, rather than announcing late November (all going well).

    What proportion of Victorian public servants is chosen for competence, what proportions for intersectionality, political allegiance, various politically correct categories?

    Going by performance so far, the number of competent staff is low, and probably concentrated in the higher age brackets.

  12. stevem

    I did see that drawback….

  13. Old Moss

    Once upon a time a Governor General sacked an Australian Prime Minister for making shady financial deals abroad, with, it was argued, grave consequence for Australian governance, all of which from todays perspective looks like a minor order aberration. Andrews is on the cusp of completely destroying the lives of millions of Victorians and severly impacting the entire nation for years to come. SloMo cannot armchair this disaster any longer without becoming complicit in the horror to come. The constitution no doubt says he cannot activate the Army and liberate the place, but who would complain if he did?

    Or shall we simply silo ourselves in our home prisons remembering better times and taking comfort from the thought that Melbourne’s entire underworld is presumably home too, watching the telly and playing with the kids.

  14. Nob

    They only have to test a few more when required and they’ll get the numbers they want to extend lockdown.

  15. Nob

    yarpos
    #3575848, posted on September 7, 2020 at 3:08 pm
    Sure the death rate is low, but that is with draconian lock downs in place of course. You offer no viable alternative just a whine. Not a lockdown fan, just wondering how brave the critics would actually be if they were at the helm.

    Maybe you didn’t mean to express it that way but you’re effectively saying that it takes bravery to admit you’re on the wrong track but Dan’s a coward.

    Fortunately, I have some idea on how brave I’d be because I’ve run businesses , where the consequences of my decisions and actions affected my situation as much as anyone. “Skin in the game” as they say.

  16. Grunter

    Yarpos – yours are the words of the ignorant, illiterate and innumerate.

  17. Rohan

    I posted this vid last week On facechook. Only to have their science factcheck unit put A notice on my post that it was fake news.

    It’s a brave new world and all that.

  18. sfw

    “What proportion of Victorian public servants is chosen for competence, what proportions for intersectionality, political allegiance, various politically correct categories?”

    The other day I had to call ‘Business Victoria’ anyway I had to hang up after a few minutes with the first two calls as both of the people who answered obviously had English as a second language, I’m sure they were trying hard it was that their English was so poor and their accents so strong I couldn’t understand them. I supposed that Andrews has been stacking his public service with diversity picks to get the votes of the ethnics. They certainly weren’t employed as the best people available.

    When I finally spoke to someone I could understand I explained how I was filling out a form that required my SRO customer number, without which you couldn’t get to the next part of the form. I explained how I didn’t have an SRO number as the form was for people who had lost rental income but weren’t eligible for land tax reductions. After an hour she said that I had no choice but to get an SRO number. Another hour spent with SRO staff who said I couldn’t have a number but suggested that I just put some random numbers in the form box and proceed.

    We’re in the best hands.

  19. min

    Contact tracing the problem so a tender was put out for computer program and finalised on August 25 th so they have to get it up and running . How long would that take To install, train etc. so Andrews has given himself leeway to cover the inadequacy and who knows if it is up to NSW standard .

  20. BoyfromTottenham

    Yes, the death rate is what is important for policy. But what is the rate of False Positives for the current testing technology? If the test has a significant false positive rate then the pollies and CMOs are definitely on the wrong bus with lockdowns. And how many of the 666 deaths in Victoria are so old or unwell that their life expectancy is less than a year? I guess it might be well over 90%. How many more times is a Labor state government going to ruin the Victorian economy?

  21. Professor Fred Lenin

    By the video DANDEMIC DANS Chinese Biowar Virus is a PLANNEDDEMIC ?

  22. The Golden Age of the Dumb fuck has arrived … All hail King Dan !

  23. Leo G

    Sure the death rate is low, but that is with draconian lock downs in place of course. You offer no viable alternative just a whine.

    The death rates are quite high for those over 65 years who are infected.
    This has been reported in the news media quite frequently, but in a way which conceals the extent to which the mortal risk is concentrated in those older folk. On average the risk to the over 65 group is more than 100 times that of the under 65s with no significant comorbidities.

  24. Dusty

    I was born here, and now no longer want to be here. I have to finish some commitments, but I no longer wish to be a rat on this sinking ship called Australia. Dan is going to extend it indefinitely.

  25. notafan

    Yes Leo but questions could be asked about deaths not in hospital. No transparency on how they arrive at those being covid19 caused.

    Of course if someone is hospitalized and their disease is actively managed we can accept covid caused but anything else raises questions.

  26. Roger

    A third mistake by Victoria will mean it’s time for intervention.

    Here’s the thing:

    Victoria would have to request Commonwealth intervention.

    I’d wager that won’t be happening whilst Andrews remains in charge.

    Over to you, Victorian ALP parliamentarians.

  27. Roger

    On average the risk to the over 65 group is more than 100 times that of the under 65s with no significant comorbidities.

    Ergo the only group that should be socially isolating until a vaccine is available is over 65s.

    If they so choose.

  28. Shane

    Definitely not a subject that the Victorian loyal opposition much less any of the media talking heads on Channel nine etc are willing to mention in polite company

    https://finanz.dk/world-bank-imf-exposed-covid-aid-conditional-on-imposing-extreme-lockdowns-curfews/

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/corruption/belarusian-president-claims-imf-world-bank-offered-him-a-bribe-to-impose-covid-restrictions/

    Belarusian President Aleksandr Lukashenko said last month via Belarusian Telegraph Agency, BelTA., that World Bank and IMF offered him a bribe of $940 million USD in the form of “Covid Relief Aid.” In exchange for $940 million USD, the World Bank and IMF demanded that the President of Belarus:

    • imposed “extreme lockdown on his people”
    • force them to wear face masks
    • impose very strict curfews
    • impose a police state
    • crash the economy

    Belarus President Aleksandr Lukashenko REFUSED the offer and stated that he could not accept such an offer and would put his people above the needs of the IMF and World Bank. This is NOT a conspiracy. You may research this yourself. He actually said this!

    Now IMF and World Bank are bailing out failing airlines with billions of dollars, and in exchange, they are FORCING airline CEOs to implement VERY STRICT POLICIES such as FORCED face masks covers on EVERYONE, including SMALL CHILDREN, whose health will suffer as a result of these policies.

    And if it is true for Belarus, then it is true for the rest of the world! The IMF and World Bank want to crash every major economy with the intent of buying over every nation’s infrastructure at cents on the dollar!

  29. We need two metrics.
    Deaths.
    Hospitalisation.

  30. Shaun

    Biggest thing I have seen with everything is “skin in the game”. Anyone taking a pay check from the taxpayer should be put on job keeper. No if’s buts or candy nuts. I bet covid would disappear real quick if that was the case. The fact that we have these “emergency” clauses in a democratic system where the opposition party is not involved is problematic. Unelected bureaucrats making decisions on behalf of others with “no skin in the game”. In fact it is a positive for the health dept. Blank cheques, all public scrutiny is removed, jobs and advancements for themselves. They don’t care for the frontline workers. They are pawns for sacrifice.
    South Aust has just announced a special unit in the health dept just in case covid spike arrives. 150 positions. No scrutiny, no question, all under the “covid emergency banner”.
    “No skin in the game”

  31. Leo G

    Yes Leo but questions could be asked about deaths not in hospital. No transparency on how they arrive at those being covid19 caused.

    It is well known that certain comorbidities makedly increase the risk of COVID infection, directly and indirectly. Among the direct component are age-related changes in immunological defences. The indirect component mainly appears to be the result of increased close contacts in higher risk situations.
    I haven’t studied the latest CDC report in any detail, but I think the above video production rather misrepresents the significance of comorbidities.
    Medical authorities have reported that COVID patients with a significant history of hypertension, obesity, chronic lung disease, diabetes, or cardiovascular disease appear to have the worst outcomes through conditions such as ARDS and pneumonia.

  32. Ozman

    Just had an encounter with a female psychologist I know. She is keen to get the Covid vaccination. She has great faith in science. She is also pro-windmills, anti-CO2, loves Greta, and anti-Tump–of course!

  33. Professor Fred Lenin

    Shaun ,politicians and media propagandists and the Stasi too ,think of the money we would save paying all those tossers less. Bet they would have an open up plan on the table rapidly .

  34. Professor Fred Lenin

    Put pressure on alp aparstchiks ,Dandemic Dan the Wuhan man is destroying the brand ,their plans for a lucrative political career are shot to bits by this clowns meglomania ,federal and state will wear this stinking carcase round rtheir necks for years . Now if you remove him and try and mend the damage he has done you may yet have a chance at a career in politics .

  35. Roger

    She has great faith in science.

    Does she not see a contradiction between that faith and being a psychologist?

  36. Ozman

    Shane
    #3576048, posted on September 7, 2020 at 5:54 pm

    Belarusian President Aleksandr Lukashenko said last month via Belarusian Telegraph Agency, BelTA., that World Bank and IMF offered him a bribe of $940 million USD in the form of “Covid Relief Aid.” In exchange for $940 million USD, the World Bank and IMF demanded that the President of Belarus:

    • imposed “extreme lockdown on his people”
    • force them to wear face masks
    • impose very strict curfews
    • impose a police state
    • crash the economy

    Belarus President Aleksandr Lukashenko REFUSED the offer

    Big protests in Minsk, Belarus. Apparently, Aleksandr Luashenko rigged the election. Nobody dying from COVID, though. Like BLM marches. Victorians should march on Spring Street.

  37. Ozman

    Roger
    #3576120, posted on September 7, 2020 at 6:49 pm
    She has great faith in science.

    Devout Catholic.

  38. Roger

    Devout Catholic.

    Sorry Ozman – she way well be devout but her actual religion is not Catholicism.

  39. Frank

    Someone, Twain?, said lies and statistics.

    Statistics is well and good for deciding on who gets the money for cancer treatments, the oncologists or the aroma therapists. Still, it is a dismal little science and experience tends to teach you that you’re an anecdote once you catch it.

  40. Frank

    Someone, Twain?, said lies and statistics.

    Statistics is well and good for deciding on who gets the money for cancer treatments, the oncologists or the aroma [email protected] Still, it is a dismal little science and experience tends to teach you that you’re an anecdote once you catch it.

    Because obviously [email protected] fires up the spaminator.

  41. Back Burn

    This episode squarely places the 4th Estate as being complicit in mass human suffering. Just as destructive as the clergy or nobility. As always, the commoner takes in the a…

  42. Kneel

    “… just wondering how brave the critics would actually be if they were at the helm.”

    Well, were it I, then I would like to think I would be brave enough to make the actual decision myself, instead of handing it over to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats. I have no doubt it would be a long way from perfect, but it would be based on all sorts of things other than “medical” concerns – all those pesky things like “freedom”, “the economy”, “rights”, “proportional response” and so on.
    Call me old fashioned, but that’s the job, and that’s – allegedly – why the pay is good.
    “Pay peanuts, you get monkeys” – true enough, but just because you pay in gold bars doesn’t mean you get Einstien.
    Viktoriastani’s are paying gold bars, but they still have a monkey in charge. (apologies to monkeys – a little harsh on you, I know)

  43. Matt

    Can’t believe you’re still trying to push this discredited ‘only 6% of deaths are due to COVID’ line.

  44. Tel

    The death rates are quite high for those over 65 years who are infected.

    Not high when you compare it to other diseases and consider the same age group.

    It’s quite normal for old people to die of something … we all end up dead from something. The natural human lifespan is approx 70 years (presuming no violence nor accidents), and although modern technology and good diet can improve that to approx 80 years the inevitable thing that happens is old people have weaker immune systems and are thus vulnerable to many common diseases that younger people easily shrug off.

    Nearly 3000 old people die every year in Australia from pneumonia that no one even bothers to identify … that’s the current state of normal. About 1000 old people die every year from flu (not pneumonia) or something that appeared sufficiently close to flu that a doctor ticked that box. Most flu is not positively identified by RNA testing, so a good chunk of the statistics have always been guesswork.

    The big problems with COVID-19 are now understood and can be significantly reduced with sufficient will power:
    * If any person gets a continuous aerosol dose over an extended period of time, or a very heavy dose in a short space of time, they get hit exceptionally hard … this effects medical staff doing long or repeated shifts especially without protective equipment, it also is a problem for bus drivers, and people in old age homes, or people locked in cabins on cruise ships where the same air in a confined space goes round and round.
    * Putting sick people on ventilators often does not help, and of course in the early days doctors had no idea which drugs to use, but that’s getting sorted out now … it’s not strange that a new disease confuses the doctors for a while, and then they argue about it, and eventually figure it out.
    * Using security guards and hotel staff as quarantine supervisors does not work because they have no idea how to avoid contagion, and end up making things worse.
    * Surprisingly large numbers of people are deficient in basic vitamins, such as A, C, D, and Zinc and although all of these can easily be fixed, first you need to get the medical industry interested in low-cost solutions, then you have to get nursing homes to allow their customers some time in the sun every day, then you need to get Dickhead Dan to allow people out of their houses … all achievable with a bit of effort.
    * There’s a lot of overweight people out there … because the government carb-loaded “Food Pyramid” was not only wrong it was outright dangerous, and every public servant who scoffed at Dr Atkins should be held at least partly liable for the damage done. Seriously this has killed far more people than COVID-19 ever will, and following the “Food Pyramid” is probably the single greatest co-contributor to COVID deaths as well.

  45. Tel

    Biggest thing I have seen with everything is “skin in the game”.

    Declaration of “emergency” anything should be linked to an automatic and instantaneous cut of at least 10% of all government salaries across the board, including especially politicians and senior public servants. The only ones not getting that cut would be those at minimum wage already.

    If it’s a real emergency then the pay cut is a small show of solidarity and anyone as dedicated as that lot claim to be would be happy to make the sacrifice because after all we are all in this together. If it’s not a real emergency then at least the pay cut will encourage them to think carefully beforehand.

  46. Tel

    Big protests in Minsk, Belarus. Apparently, Aleksandr Luashenko rigged the election.

    There are always consequences for people who say no to the IMF and World Bank … that’s just the way coincidence operates.

  47. Leo G

    Can’t believe you’re still trying to push this discredited ‘only 6% of deaths are due to COVID’ line.

    The “line” is not discredited. It is quite reasonable to infer that, without the comorbidities, up to 94% of the COVID deaths may not have eventuated. What is not so reasonable is to assume that COVID was not a cause of death in those cases.
    The comorbidities increase the risk of infection, and aggravate the outcome.

  48. Rex Anger

    Can’t believe you’re still trying to push this discredited ‘only 6% of deaths are due to COVID’ line

    Can’t believe you’re still trying this concern-troll line of attack after your last trouncing on the issue, bugman.

    Might want to take that stethoscope off, my dear ‘front-line’ medical worker Comrade. We can’t have that accidentally throttling you when the Cats pile onto you, VikPlod-style again…

  49. Matt

    By that logic Leo, without COVID those deaths wouldn’t have occurred. COVID-19 is listed on the death certificate as the underlying cause in ~95% of deaths – that is the primary cause that led to death.

  50. Matt

    Sure Rex, I copped a real trouncing last time. Pile on all you like, it doesn’t make you right

  51. Shane

    ”Ozman
    #3576133, posted on September 7, 2020 at 6:58 pm

    Belarusian President Aleksandr Lukashenko said last month via Belarusian Telegraph Agency, BelTA., that World Bank and IMF offered him a bribe of $940 million USD in the form of “Covid Relief Aid.” In exchange for $940 million USD, the World Bank and IMF demanded that the President of Belarus:

    • imposed “extreme lockdown on his people”
    • force them to wear face masks
    • impose very strict curfews
    • impose a police state
    • crash the economy

    Belarus President Aleksandr Lukashenko REFUSED the offer

    Big protests in Minsk, Belarus. Apparently, Aleksandr Luashenko rigged the election. Nobody dying from COVID, though. Like BLM marches. Victorians should march on Spring Street. ”

    Its the first time to the best of my knowledge that anyone has implied that Dan rigged the last state election in spite of the other above-cited similarities.
    I’ve always simply assumed up to now anyway that the Liberals were just trying their hardest to lose [ possibly because they had been given a heads up that it would be a good time to lose & it simply wasn’t their turn]

  52. Ozman

    Roger
    #3576139, posted on September 7, 2020 at 7:02 pm
    Sorry Ozman – she way well be devout but her actual religion is not Catholicism.

    Okay. What would her religion be?

  53. Ozman

    Shane
    #3576216, posted on September 7, 2020 at 8:01 pm
    Its the first time to the best of my knowledge that anyone has implied that Dan rigged the last state election in spite of the other above-cited similarities.

    Implication was unintended. More the fact that though the people are protesting a rigged election, there are no signs of deadly viruses killing people, just like BLM marches, therefore Victorians ought not be banned from marching in protest of draconian lockdowns.

  54. Ozman

    Tel
    #3576181, posted on September 7, 2020 at 7:34 pm

    Nailing it!

  55. Leo G

    By that logic Leo, without COVID those deaths wouldn’t have occurred.

    Interesting logic.

  56. Wyndham Dix

    Christiana Figueres,2015

    “This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution.

    “This will not happen overnight and it will not happen at a single conference on climate change…It is a process, because of the depth of the transformation,” said Figueres, who said last year that Communist China, the world’s top emitter of greenhouse gas, is “doing it right” regarding climate change while calling the U.S. Congress “very detrimental” in the fight against global warming.

    Can there any longer be doubt that what globalist politicians, including the very many in Australia, failed to achieve completely through the manufactured crisis of climate change they are now accomplishing at alarming speed through another manufactured crisis, to wit COVID-19?

  57. Leo G

    Can there any longer be doubt that what globalist politicians, including the very many in Australia, failed to achieve completely through the manufactured crisis of climate change they are now accomplishing at alarming speed through another manufactured crisis, to wit COVID-19?

    I doubt that politicians are the real goal seekers, but it does appear that those crises are manufactured as a defence of globalism.

  58. Pingback: COVID 2.5 election post. – Dark Brightness

  59. IainC

    Morlock-down
    Captain’s Log, Stardate 2120.
    Captain: “Crew, we’re back in Earth orbit preparing to land in Melbourne for this so-called AFL Grand Final everyone else talks about. Prepare to land.”
    Pilot: “Sir, the Victorian Government Premier is refusing permission to land, in case we have coronavirus.”
    “What nonsense. Who is this Premier fellow?”
    “Sir, he’s Premier Northcape Andrews, hereditary leader of the State of Victoria, a position handed down from Father to Son since his great, great grandfather in the 2020s. His dynasty keeps getting 99% of the vote every election, thanks to a grateful populace thankful for keeping the coronavirus outside their borders.”
    “What? That virus has been eradicated everywhere in the known universe.”
    “Yes, they haven’t had a case for 80 years, but their Supercomputer tells them it’s too risky to open up – even a single case could bring a third wave, whatever that is.”
    “Supercomputer?? But everyone’s been using Superdooper computers for generations.”
    “I know, Sir, but he says that they don’t want to change now in case the answer comes up different.”
    “Groan. OK, what about this Grand Final thing?”
    “Good news Sir. It’s being played at its traditional home ground, the Gabba for the hundredth time. The match is between traditional rivals the Antarctic Magpies and the Tasmanian Tigers.”
    “I thought there was once a “Richmond Tigers” and a “Collingwood Magpies”?
    “Yes sir, but they all moved out of the state decades ago.”
    “Well, I hope the good folk of Victoria can watch it in comfort.”
    “That’s the scary thing, Sir. Most of the population has been under lockdown for so long, they’ve started to change form – they have long hair, glowing eyes and can’t stand the sun. It’s like in that book the Time Machine, with the Morlocks. They spend all their time in the dark, accumulating toilet paper and packets of pasta. They only emerge at night when the curfew ends at 8pm, and return to their burrows at 5am.”
    “Dreadful, what a life.”
    “They seem to enjoy it, Sir.”

  60. Up The Workers!

    The same report from Johns Hopkins University that came up with the figure of 2.6 co-morbidities per alleged covid-19-related deaths in the U.S.A., also found that in only 6% (six per cent) of cases did people die solely of covid-19 and in 94 % of cases, there were co-morbidities – such as cancer, heart attack, stroke, diabetes, dementia, old age, etc., etc., present as well.

    Only in 6% of alleged cases did people die from Covid 19, whereas in 94% of cases, they died with it.

    If these figures carry over to Australia, then only 45 of our 762 deaths nation-wide are likely to be deaths From Covid, while some 716 are likely to be deaths With Covid, but just as likely to have been caused by one or more of the average 2.6 co-morbidities present.

  61. Matt

    ‘Alleged COVID-19 related deaths’.
    Read the CDC report – for the majority of deaths where COVID-19 is reported on the death certificate (approximately 95%), COVID-19 is selected as the underlying cause of death – that is, COIVD-19 caused the death. If they didn’t have COVID-19, they wouldn’t have died. For the others, COVID-19 may have contributed to the death, but the underlying cause of death was another cause, such as terminal cancer.
    So to claim that only 6% of deaths were caused by COVID-19 and the remaining 94% died of other causes is simply not correct.

  62. Ozman

    Matt
    #3576542, posted on September 8, 2020 at 6:02 am

    So to claim that only 6% of deaths were caused by COVID-19 and the remaining 94% died of other causes is simply not correct.

    Of course, you know when and where the virus was isolated and purified so that it could be identified and proven aetiologically the sole agent for elderly people dying in hospitals from pulmonary obstructions and other co-morbidities due to a weakened immune system.
    Many researchers are still looking.

    Matt, why don’t you let everybody else in on this most important finding, so we can begin to have some confidence in the medical authorities making a fortune out of diagnostics while using incorrect procedures.

  63. Matt

    ‘isolated and purified’

    COVID-19 is listed on the death certificate as the underlying cause in ~95% of deaths – that is the primary cause that led to death. For example, COVID-19 infection leads to pneumonia leads to death. Without COVID-19, the person wouldn’t have pneumonia and wouldn’t have died.

    There are also things listed on the death certificate that are considered to contribute to the cause of death but are not involved in the chain of events that resulted in the underlying cause of death. So it is not unusual to have co-morbidities listed on a death certificate. Good luck to all of us if our death certificate only lists a single thing.

    The CDC reports a list of co-morbidities that are on the death certificates of people who died FROM (not WITH) COVID-19, for example ‘All other conditions and causes (residual) A00–A39, A42–B99, D00–E07, E15–E64, E70–E90, F00, F02, F04–G26, G31–H95, K00–K93, L00–M99, N00–N16, N20–N99, O00–O99, P00–P96, Q00–Q99, R00–R08, R09.0, R09.1, R09.3, R09.8, R10–R99’ – these are just some of the co-morbidities.

    From that list of items that are listed as contributing to but not causing death, here are a few:
    R00 Abnormalities of heart beat
    R01 Cardiac murmurs and other cardiac sounds
    R03 Abnormal blood-pressure reading, without diagnosis
    R04 Hemorrhage from respiratory passages
    R05 Cough
    R06 Abnormalities of breathing
    R07 Pain in throat and chest

    So what you are saying is that this is what killed those people, and COVID-19 was just an incidental finding? Go on believing that then, there’s clearly no helping you.

  64. Ozman

    No evidence of a virus being purified. Thought so. No real evidence, just the propaganda of a puppet!

  65. Matt

    Are you claiming the virus doesn’t exist? There are a multitude of papers that have isolated the virus.
    And just completely ignoring the debunking of your WITH/OF claims – which makes sense, because there is rebuttal. But cling to your false narrative that COVID-19 is only responsible for 6% of reported deaths.

  66. flyingduk

    The natural human lifespan is approx 70 years (presuming no violence nor accidents),

    Actually, not its not, its more like 40. In our hunter gather past, we died of ‘getting a bit slow’, not of ‘old age’. Just about everything else in the animal kingdom did too. If you use professional contact sport as a proxy for a mobile, competitive, hunter gather lifestyle, you can see the analogy: prime performer up to about 30 or 32, getting old at 35, notable is still playing at 38, no one left at 40.

  67. Ozman

    Matt
    #3576581, posted on September 8, 2020 at 7:12 am

    Produce the paper that has been peer reviewed that has isolated and purified the virus to identify it as the gold standard.

  68. Matt

    Right – so you are claiming the virus doesn’t exist.

  69. Ozman

    flyingduk
    #3576584, posted on September 8, 2020 at 7:17 am

    The natural human lifespan is approx 70 years (presuming no violence nor accidents),

    Actually, not its not, its more like 40

    When was that! I have seen many graveyards where nearly all the headstones stated the people buried there lived into their 80s and 90s.

  70. Ozman

    Matt
    #3576589, posted on September 8, 2020 at 7:23 am
    Right – so you are claiming the virus doesn’t exist.

    Produce the proof?

  71. Matt

    Wow – this is exciting. I’ve come across a few ‘the virus isn’t as deadly’ down players, but never a fully fledged ‘the virus doesn’t exist’ conspiracy theorist.
    Serious question, do you also believe that water fluoridation was a Nazi and/or Soviet mind control plot. I’ve only every heard that in person once.

  72. Terry

    ‘Serious question, do you also believe that water fluoridation was a Nazi and/or Soviet mind control plot. I’ve only every[sic] heard that in person once.’
    Overruled – strawman.

  73. Matt

    Fair call Terry, but I’d love to find out if there are others out there that genuinely believe that myth too.

  74. Leo G

    … for the majority of deaths where COVID-19 is reported on the death certificate (approximately 95%), COVID-19 is selected as the underlying cause of death – that is, COIVD-19 caused the death.

    In most COVID-19 related deaths CV-19 is not the immediate cause of death, nor is it the genuine cause of death. The WHO has directed that COVID-19 be recorded as the underlying cause of death, when it is recorded as having merely contributed to death.
    Australian authorities have issued guidelines that pre-existing co-morbidities should not be recorded as a cause of death, even when they contributed to the death and when they more directly led to the death than any COVID-19 chain of events.
    The guidelines require co-morbidities to be recorded in Part 2 of death certificates only (ie not in Part 1 as a cause of death) in any case where COVID-19 is present.
    My view is that the direction to certifiers, claimed to be “due to the public health importance of COVID-19” is an instance of noble cause corruption.

  75. Maryanne

    It seems the infection rate stats are a sham. “… up to 90 percent of people who have tested positive should actually have been negative, as they are carrying only tiny amounts of the virus, are not contagious, pose no risk to others, and have no need to isolate.” : https://www.rt.com/op-ed/499816-positive-covid-virus-contagious/
    I used duckduckgo and that was the first link in the results. I looked at the next thirty and none was a MSM link.

  76. Terry

    ‘Fair call Terry, but I’d love to find out if there are others out there that genuinely believe that myth too.’
    Each to their own. I am sure there is a myriad of suitable conspiracy theory websites (ranging from mildly plausible, if unlikely, right through to out-of-ya-mind-batshit-crazy) one could visit, to scratch your itch.

    If we can just confirm 911 was an inside job, we can finally declare the moon landings fake, and that the Queen is a Lizard-Alien#, right? 😉

    And my favourite. The existence of “Conspiracy Theorists” is proof of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Change; aka: A nutter-butterfly flaps its wings over a keyboard in some basement and CO2 causes the atmosphere to spontaneously combust, except if sufficient indulgences are purchased from a Climate Shaman – then it’s all good.

    And let’s not forget that joining BLM, Antifa, or Extinction Rebellion is a proven prophylaxis against SARS-Cov-2.

    # Prince Charles does Her Majesty no favours dispelling this theory.

  77. Richard Standley

    I’ve tried several times to download this video to my facebook account…
    The online censors keep blocking it…
    I guess they have a joke-free policy in case someone gets offended…

  78. nb

    Who’d have thought it? Pay rise for me, penury for you. And in California, another bastion of leftism:

    Gyms within government buildings in San Francisco have been open for months, despite privately owned establishments being ordered to close due to the coronavirus.

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/09/07/lex-est-quod-dico-san-francisco-government-gyms-open-private-gyms-forced-to-remain-closed/

  79. nb

    I hope Daniel Andrews and his health establishment take notice of these studies showing significant beneficial effects from the use of Vitamin D. If the aim of the shutdown is to prevent overwhelming our medical facilities, these studies suggest that problem is solved. I hope the medical advisors address Victorians as to the efficacy and usefulness of Vitamin D, as described in these studies, particularly the Spanish one. I hope Daniel Andrews expresses to the population the hope these studies promise for an early end to the shutdowns.

    The First Clinical Trial to Support Vitamin D Therapy For Covid-19
    https://medium.com/@shinjieyong/the-first-clinical-trial-to-support-vitamin-d-therapy-for-covid-19-906a9d907468

    Vitamin D helps the body fight coronavirus, major Israeli study claims:
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/vitamin-d-helps-the-body-fight-coronavirus-major-israeli-study-claims/

  80. Ozman

    Matt
    #3576609, posted on September 8, 2020 at 7:41 am
    Wow – this is exciting. I’ve come across a few ‘the virus isn’t as deadly’ down players, but never a fully fledged ‘the virus doesn’t exist’ conspiracy theorist.

    I would call you a moron, but, why should I. Now that you are excited, rather than go into your bedroom and get off on whatever else excites you, go and do some research. Learn a little about an EM and why it’s pictures are required to demonstrate a virus actually exists. And while you are at it, dig deep into what the PCR is really designed for and understand why the technique is not a true diagnostic tool.

    The myth is perpetrated by those who make claims without producing the required evidence. We who question just want absolute proof, not the propaganda of the collective.

    There is no need to pressure doctors to create a fake narrative, by stating all deaths are caused by a coronavirus, if the real virus exists.
    Doctors pressured to put COVID-19 on death certificates:
    https://fee.org/articles/physicians-say-hospitals-are-pressuring-er-docs-to-list-covid-19-on-death-certificates-here-s-why/

    Matt, your inability to think for yourself is rather alarming. There are a number like you who frequent this board. The phenomena of puppets parroting propaganda and posting on Catallaxy Files is not a new. Certain individuals have been doing so for years. Dyed in the wool anti-truthers!

  81. Up The Workers!

    Ahhh…Queensland.

    Perfect one day – an A.L.P.F.L. Labor-Leprosarium the next.

    The W.H.O. (Wuhan Health Organisation) advises: “Be sure to add some pineapple chunks or sliced paw paw to the Bat Soup, to cater for local tastes.”

    Could this years’ A.L.P.F.L. Grand Final be a tie between the avaricious “Palace Chook” and Deadly Dan’s totalitarian Chi-Com pals at the Wuhan Wet Market and Chemical Weapons Facility?

  82. The BigBlueCat

    BTW the official death rate in Victoria is 666 dead out of a population of 6.5 million, which comes to 0.01%, which is one death per 10,000.

    And the death rate compared to the infection rate is 3.4% (675 / 19574 for Victoria as I write) – the vast majority of these from cross-infection in aged care facilities. The cynic in me thinks the government doesn’t really care about aged care, so this death rate is helping solve a problem for them. 3.45 is a problem but isolated for the most part to certain at-risk categories. That’s where the money should have been spent – they should have learnt from the Cuomo/deBlasio experiment in New York (arguably they did – they replicated it!).

    Of course, there are more infections out there than are being reported, and the death reporting can be considered more “favorable” to COVID-19 rather than the comorbidities. Clearly it is down to inadequate hotel quarantine security – another Dan Andrews government decision. Why does the Health Minister still have her job????

    Their argument is that if there was no shutdown, the numbers would be much worse. But what about abandoning shutdown but keeping face masks and social distancing? What then? Why is there no reasonable middle-ground being discussed?

    And why doesn’t Chairman Dan’s plan have no clear pathway to opening up the economy? Opening up our borders (within Victoria, within Australia and internationally)? All we get from Dangerous Dan is “fear the virus, obey me”. And he does this without adequate scrutiny from the parliament (he has, of course, silenced that form of debate), releasing the police to enter, arrest and seize without warrants, and (it seems) arresting certain media for doing their permitted work.

    If Dan Andrews gets re-elected, God help Victoria, because Dan won’t.

  83. The BigBlueCat

    So what you are saying is that this is what killed those people, and COVID-19 was just an incidental finding?

    While COVID-19 might have been the agent accelerating death due to the comorbidities, it could have been influenza or the common cold, or a dodgy vindaloo that was served at lunch that day. Or bad case management. But COVID-19 it is, so fear the virus, obey Dan!

    The issue is that COVID-19 is highly infectious, but the federal and state governments did nothing to ensure the COVID-19 plans put in place by private and public aged care centres were adequate for the job they had to do. But given the aged care tragedies in New York, it was clear that this is where the efforts needed to be put, along with the hotel quarantine security (which as we now know is the source of the 2nd wave of infections in Victoria).

    The fact that neither the Victorian government particularly did not ring-fence at-risk communities is the real issue here. Their gross incompetence has cost lives, cost jobs, and cost the economy. We may not recover for decades – not from COVID-19, but from the virus that is Dan Andrews.

  84. Rex Anger

    Pile on all you like, it doesn’t make you right

    Who told younthat, bugman? Your ALP branch paymaster?

    Seriously, that stethoscope your scriptwriters gave you is far too small- It’s throttling.yor brain.

    Otherwise you’d be trying a different angle, instead of the same one you try to shill here every other week. And the same people shut you down on each and every time.

    Iampeter, for all his leftist buffoonery and robotic NPC repetitiveness, had more variety than you, bugman.

    Now either up your rhetoric game, or ‘zorf. The others have you comfortably cornered on dialectic, and your LockDan-sympathetic troll scripts give you no flexibility when you’re challenged on your rhetoric.

  85. Matt

    You make me laugh Rex – ‘comfortably corner on dialectic’, ‘same people shut you down’
    You keep repeating the same nonsensical claims, and think that sheer repetition means you are right.
    It’s very entertaining.

  86. Rex Anger

    Sounds like Iampeter is back, with his repetitive No, U! reply, plus a suitably passive aggressive attempt to laugh it all off.

    Do you even understand dialectic, bugman? I am fairly sure I have never seen you use it…

  87. Astatine Jones

    Ozman:
    Produce the paper that has been peer reviewed that has isolated and purified the virus to identify it as the gold standard.

    Using Google Scholar, this would be it:

    It is the reference genome of the SARS-CoV-2 causative agent (virus) in the NCBI genome database and was determined by Chinese investigators early 2020.

    It is cited (ref. 44) in this review (Journal of Clinical Medicine):

    in section 4 (SARS-CoV-2 Genome Organization), following a statement on the sequencing of ‘a total of 7655 complete genomes from 67 countries in the Global Initiative on Sharing All Influenza Data (GISAID) database’ (as of 14/04/20) (ref 43).

    Genome sequencing, usually involving PCR, is *the standard* way of characterising viruses and complements structural techniques like x-ray crystallography, NMR and EM, which are not appropriate for clinical diagnosis (they are time consuming and labour-intensive!)

    If you think PCR is a shonky method, then I suggest you review the last 50 years of molecular biology before firming on that conclusion.

  88. Matt

    Dialectic involves a reasoned discourse where people are willing to discover the truth between different positions – something that is unlikely here given the propensity to unscientific views and alternate truths.

    Nothing is going to shake Leo from his opinion that there is no such thing as COVID-19, nothing will change the view of others here that COVID-19 is causing deaths – they would rather believe that people are just co-incidentally dying with a fake virus and through a massive globally conspiracy all of the doctors around the world are putting COVID-19 as the cause of death.

  89. Rex Anger

    Dialectic involves a reasoned discourse where people are willing to discover the truth between different positions – something that is unlikely here given the propensity to unscientific views and alternate truths.

    Rhetoric, bugman. Your attempt at definition is coloured by the emotive bias you have chosen to use to try and convince me to take your side.

    Pseudo dialectic- Your invention that Leo G (when it was actually OzMan- oops!), and your further projection onto all of us that chalenge the vast majority of the alleged Covid-19 death figures, claim that the virus does not exist.

    Leo G’s statement . It is quite reasonable to infer that, without the comorbidities, up to 94% of the COVID deaths may not have eventuated. What is not so reasonable is to assume that COVID was not a cause of death in those cases, cannot be for a moment imagined to infer he does not believe the virus exists.

    He used dialectic.

    You, on the other hand, deliberately chose to misinterpret, conflate and inflame his words, and Ozman’s counter to your rhetoric,

    Of course, you know when and where the virus was isolated and purified so that it could be identified and proven aetiologically the sole agent for elderly people dying in hospitals from pulmonary obstructions and other co-morbidities due to a weakened immune system.
    Many researchers are still looking

    To try and smear them, and now the rest of us, as conspiracists and therefore worthy of your contempt.

    You need to try far harder than that, bugman. Maybe trying your skills on se other treads and not being so monomanically focussed on enforcing LockDan’s granny-killer Narrative on Covid might help you…

  90. Leo G

    Nothing is going to shake Leo from his opinion that there is no such thing as COVID-19

    That is not my opinion, as Matt must know.
    He is evidently a dishonest social influencer troll.

  91. Matt

    Sorry Leo – mixed you and Ozman. Doesn’t change the point though.

  92. Rex Anger

    It is the reference genome of the SARS-CoV-2 causative agent (virus) in the NCBI genome database and was determined by Chinese investigators early 2020.

    If you think PCR is a shonky method, then I suggest you review the last 50 years of molecular biology before firming on that conclusion.

    Metaloid Man, the test methodology itself has never been in question. What the PCR is testing for very much is.

    We are told that the Covid-19 test seeks antibodies, as produced by infected individuals’ immune responses. The issue being, is that no specific Covid-19 antibody has been isolated or confirmed.

    You produce coronavirus antibodies in response to any and all coronavirus infections.

    Given these facts, and that the specificity and sensitivity of these tests has been repeatedly questioned (and ignored, as they are allegedly the best identifiers available, and something must be done!), that they are guiding the apparent governmental overreactions to this virus worldwide is a sore point amongst all sceptics, reasonable people and non-ideologues.

  93. Rex Anger

    Doesn’t change the point though.

    What point is that, trolly-kins? You are dishonest in your projections?

    That you have sought solely to enforce a pro-lockdown narrative at the Cat?

    That you cannot understand or speak dialectic?

  94. Matt

    Correcting facts on COVID cause of death =/= supporting lockdowns

  95. Rex Anger

    Correcting facts on COVID cause of death =/= supporting lockdowns

    Perhaps so, but given that you came on here belching contempt for the evidence from the USA and worldwide about the overinflation of COVID-19 deaths, mostly for political or funding purposes, one must wonder firmly about your motivations, troll.

    Your ‘corrections’ involve a Narrative that is already several weeks out of date. Please relink with the Collective at your earliest possible covenience to download the new Narrative…

  96. Matt

    There is no ‘evidence from the USA and worldwide’ about the over-inflation of COVID-19 deaths – there is a mis-interpretation of what the 6% CDC figures actually means.

  97. Leo G

    We are told that the Covid-19 test seeks antibodies

    There are COVID PCR tests which detect antigens (ie sections of the target virus) and there are other PCR tests which detect antibodies.

  98. Rex Anger

    Really?

    How so?

    Come on bugman, how does a single 6% of all cases clearly attributable to the beer bug mean that the numbers of overall deaths are still accurate?

    Why does death by heart disease while sick with a coronavirus in an 80+ y.o. count as a sole coronavirus death, for example?

    Or are we now going to argue semantics for political reasons, bugman? Which is about all you have done since you appeared in late July, pretending to be a ‘front-line’ medical worker.

    About the same time as LockDan of Yarragrad doubled down, as I recall..

  99. Ozman

    Astatine Jones
    #3577068, posted on September 8, 2020 at 1:08 pm
    Ozman:
    Produce the paper that has been peer reviewed that has isolated and purified the virus to identify it as the gold standard.

    Using Google Scholar, this would be it:
    It is cited (ref. 44) in this review (Journal of Clinical Medicine):

    I read the paper from the Wuhan laboratory.
    Nothing there that shows that the virus was isolated and purified to produce a gold standard.

    Using the PCR technique for gene sequencing as a diagnostic tool has been used for decades to produce a massive diagnostic industry. No argument there. Kary Mullis who developed the technique disagrees with its results as a diagnostic. No virus is actually isolated and purified, instead fluid mixed with other viruses taken from the source, using Polymerase Chain Reaction, is just like putting ink in water and pouring more water into the bucket, more ink colored water is produced, as is evidenced in the sequencing of the paper published in Nature.

    Journal of Clinical Medicine citing a published paper is not the same as verification of the experiment and counts for zilch. That’s contributes to the consensus of the collective. Fake science!

    The following is from the British Medical Journal. You will find that the same conclusion is drawn as many researchers–no gold standard. Without the gold standard, which is necessary for real science to be accurate, questions are left unanswered.

    The lack of a clear-cut “gold-standard” is a challenge for evaluating covid-19 tests; pragmatically, clinical adjudication may be the best available “gold standard,” based on repeat swabs, history, and contact with patients known to have covid-19, chest radiographs, and computed tomography scans. Inevitably this introduces some incorporation bias, where the test being evaluated forms part of the reference standard, and this would tend to inflate the measured sensitivity of these tests. Disease prevalence can also affect estimates of accuracy: tests developed and evaluated in populations with high prevalence (eg, secondary care) may have lower sensitivity when applied in a lower prevalence setting (eg, primary care).11

    One community based study of 4653 close contacts of patients with covid-19 tested RT-PCR throat swabs every 48 hours during a 14 day quarantine period. Of 129 eventually diagnosed with covid-19 by RT-PCR, 92 (71.3%) had a positive test on the first throat swab, equating to a sensitivity of 71% in this lower prevalence, community setting.

    Further evidence and independent validation of covid-19 tests are needed.
    https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1808

  100. Matt

    From the CDC website:
    ‘Deaths are coded to U07.1 when coronavirus disease 2019 or COVID-19 are reported as a cause that contributed to death on the death certificate.’

    ‘COVID-19 is listed as the underlying cause on the death certificate in 94% of deaths (see Table 1).’

    This is not contentious. COVID causes respiratory illness. Someone who contract COVID, develops pnuemonia and dies will have U07.1 (COVID) and J09–J18 (Influenza and pneumonia) on the death certificate. COVID-19 will be the underlying cause of death.

  101. Astatine Jones

    Rex Anger:
    The main type of diagnostic test used for Covid-19 in Australia and elsewhere is the RT (reverse phase)-PCR, and it looks for genetic material identifying the virus. It’s similarity to other coronaviruses isn’t disputed, but it has unique genetic material that singles it out.

    Tests looking for human exposure to the virus measure antibodies in serum. Admittedly they are more problematic. However, there is a lot of (growing) evidence (and again I’m simply employing Google Scholar here along with my own critical reading) to indicate specific antibodies to the SARS-CoV-2 virus have been identified in infected and convalescent patients.

  102. Matt

    Not sure if you read the actual paper that this quote comes from:
    ‘One community based study of 4653 close contacts of patients with covid-19 tested RT-PCR throat swabs every 48 hours during a 14 day quarantine period. Of 129 eventually diagnosed with covid-19 by RT-PCR, 92 (71.3%) had a positive test on the first throat swab, equating to a sensitivity of 71% in this lower prevalence, community setting.’

    Because it goes on to say:
    ‘In brief, the sensitivity was only 71.9% for the first testing and increased to 92.2% by the second testing, to 96.9% by the third testing, and to 100.0% by the sixth testing. In contrast, the first testing achieved a specificity 99.96%, which was reduced by less than 0.1% by further testing.’

    Given that they were testing close contacts from the time of contact, not from the time of symptoms, it’s not surprising that some initially tested negative during what would have been the incubation period, and then subsequently tested positive.

  103. John A

    But anyone who has kept a serious eye on the coronavirus numbers will know the current infection rate is still too high to ­justify any significant reopening of the economy.

    Which idiot wrote that puerile rubbish? Oh, a journalist? Nuff said.

    I have been watching the stats daily, and even though yesterday saw a pause in the headlong downhill rush to what should be normality, there is no high infection rate.

    Here are some Victorian numbers from the Coviddata site
    (The finished post won’t preserve the spacing, sorry folks.)

    Cases: 3 Sep 4 Sep Diff
    Active 2295 2060 -235
    Inactive 80 80
    Recoveries 16370 16625 255
    Deaths 591 650 59
    Totals: 19336 19415 +79 should = new cases

    Av. Tests per day
    25715 25500

    So the cumulative net increase in cases 79 divided by average daily tests 25500 = 0.31% positive. Reported new cases 76. That’s not a very high infection rate, either in relative or in absolute terms, is it?

  104. Rex Anger

    This is not contentious. COVID causes respiratory illness. Someone who contract COVID, develops pnuemonia and dies will have U07.1 (COVID) and J09–J18 (Influenza and pneumonia) on the death certificate. COVID-19 will be the underlying cause of death.

    Perhaps so, bugman. But the sensitivity of testing is still in question, as is the fact that clinical coding is confusing, prone to error and very much at the discretion of the reporting staff.

    This has been an ongoing issue the entire time, bugman. In many places.

    If the numbers are suspect, so is any defence of same…

  105. The BigBlueCat

    John A
    #3577237, posted on September 8, 2020 at 3:08 pm

    Spot on. While it’s understood there are many in the community who have COVID-19 but aren’t represented by the statistics, there is little justification to manage 100% of the population through stay-at-home orders when social distancing and the wearing of face masks are perfectly adequate for controlling community transmission.

    The reducing number of active cases is significant, but the “experts” in DHHS (who are advising the government) have no way of knowing what these numbers mean. I suggest they are being overly reactionary and are doing to so keep their jobs. They should know we are at levels that are societally acceptable in terms of risk and controllability, yet Andrews’ political imperative is to prove himself following housing towers, hotel quarantine security, tracing procedure inadequacies and massive and unjustificable heavy-handed overreach by VicPol.

    And now we see an opinion piece from Steve Bracks in The Age hammering ScoMo for being “political” …. pot, kettle, black!

  106. Astatine Jones

    Ozman:
    There is no such thing as a 100% accurate complicated chemical biology test – and the BMJ paper you link affirms this. However, while it does discuss the challenges in PCR testing presented by the lack of a ‘clear-cut gold standard’, it doesn’t trash the use of the test at all. It concludes:

    …RT-PCR tests have limitations when used to guide decision making for individual patients. Positive tests can be useful to “rule-in” covid-19, a negative swab test cannot be considered definitive for “ruling out.”

    Really, if the PCR test is so unreliable, then it would not be employed for testing other viruses in medical diagnosis or research and in many other (e.g. environmental) applications.

    Furthermore, the Journal of Clinical Medicine article I linked simply cites the Nature paper (ref. 43) to indicate that this is the ‘reference genome’ relevant to all of the other genome sequencing studies referred to in ref. 44 – therein lies the requisite scientific replication (and this was back in April – I just looked at the database and the number is now >95000). How is this fake science?

  107. Leo G

    … there is little justification to manage 100% of the population through stay-at-home orders when social distancing and the wearing of face masks are perfectly adequate for controlling community transmission.

    Don’t forget the most important transmission control- hand hygiene.

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