All the jealous old pooh-bahs crawl out of the woodwork

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109 Responses to All the jealous old pooh-bahs crawl out of the woodwork

  1. Nob

    Sure.

    Right after they destroy all the union monuments in light of the sheer bastardry and organised crime history they have.

  2. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Chris Barrie? Wasn’t he part of the problem?

  3. Perfidious Albino

    Yep, watch all those with lingering chips on their shoulders and resentments take the opportunity to come out of the woodwork now like the hyenas they are.

  4. stackja

    “The retired admiral, who led the ADF when troops were first deployed to Afghanistan…”

    Chris Barrie to face charges?

  5. Entropy

    You can tell the ADF priority is not war fighting with Morrison types running the show.

  6. billy boy

    What purpose are our troops serving by being in Afghanistan? Time to bring them home.

  7. Big_Nambas

    After this debacle we will be lucky to have any troops to defend our way of life. If you think all these man bun wearing loons will go to war you are deluded.

  8. Pedro the Loafer

    Another miserable ghost seeking some sort of relevance.

    Fuck off back to your warm milk and Arrowroot bikkies, Grandpa.

  9. Chris M

    What battles did he fight in? Never heard of him before.

  10. Boambee John

    Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
    #3666512, posted on November 21, 2020 at 11:40 am
    Chris Barrie? Wasn’t he part of the proble

    I didn’t recognise him in the photo. He has aged remarkably (and not well)?

  11. Roger

    What battles did he fight in? Never heard of him before.

    23 days non-combat duty off the coast of Vietnam on HMAS Melbourne according to his bio.

    (HMAS Melbourne never fired a shot in her career. She did, however, manage to sink two friendly ships by colliding with them.)

    A real attention seeker, this bloke.

    On the telly at any chance – ABC of ocurse – rabbiting on about climate change.

  12. C.L.

    I think his Vietnam experience was aboard HMAS Brisbane, Roger.
    His naval career was honourable and impressive.

    But yes, he is an attention-seeking dick.

    He doesn’t get to ban a memorial to the service of combat soldiers in a land war – 41 of whom were killed.

  13. Roger

    I stand corrected on that, CL.

  14. Eyrie

    billy boy
    #3666519, posted on November 21, 2020 at 11:46 am

    What purpose are our troops serving by being in Afghanistan? Time to bring them home.

    It is a live fire exercise with live targets.

  15. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    (HMAS Melbourne never fired a shot in her career. She did, however, manage to sink two friendly ships by colliding with them.)

    HMAS Melbourne, at one stage, had sunk more ships, then the rest of the Royal Australian Navy combined…

  16. Adrian

    the fact that nothing has been proven yet in a court of law seems irrelevant to the media and their hangers on.

  17. candy

    I do think there should be trials first.

    Also there are SAS members back home now with families and regular jobs who are now being tarred with the same brush, probably have people looking at them out the corner of their eyes, thinking are you one of the ones who massacres civilians in Afghanistan like the media said.

  18. Cynic of A

    I think, based on reflection and some knowledge, that the Afghan war was enabled to allow a pile of office desk warriors in Canberra, to go to a safe place in Afghanistan for a few months, so their pensions can be increased by the “War Service” amount. Iraq was a bit too dangerous though.
    If you dig in, some of these upper echelon officers who have done nothing but sit at desk for years, get an extraordinary pension. It’s a bit of a secret actually.
    I have a lot of respect for “diggers”, but Officers out of Duntroon? Not so much.

  19. Albatross

    Barrie, mate, this is for you:

  20. Mater

    I have a lot of respect for “diggers”, but Officers out of Duntroon? Not so much.

    Do you think “Officers out of Duntroon” weren’t SAS Patrol Commanders in Afghanistan?
    Do you think this anti-Officer, anti-authority shit might have something to do with where we are (allegedly) at?

  21. covid ate my homework

    Hmmm, disband our military, destroy our police….I wonder who would benefit?

  22. Mique

    I have a lot of respect for “diggers”, but Officers out of Duntroon? Not so much.

    You, sir, are an idiot. Congratulations for putting your profound ignorance out there as a warning to mankind.

  23. miltonf

    Hmmm, disband our military, destroy our police….I wonder who would benefit?

    Undermine the family unit, kill a quarter of your unborn, shut down power stations, off shore our manufacturing…the marxists have been busy over the last 60 years.

  24. Bronson

    Covering for his own involvement? Exactly what did he know and when did he know it from his time in Afghanistan?

  25. Roger

    the fact that nothing has been proven yet in a court of law seems irrelevant to the media and their hangers on.

    More to the point, it seems irrelevant to the PM & Gen. Campbell.

    Their willingness to ditch due process and resort to trial by a willing media is appalling.

  26. Jonesy

    ADFA has been bastardised by the UNSW partnership. Rules of engagment today, I would bet, would not be recognised by diggers of even thirty years ago. Singleton has been emasculated to allow the weaker recruits pass infantry quals. Recruiting say they are having little problem meeting targets but the ads portray a woke community that you would “love” to join. Aim of the army…to kill your enemy, to gain and hold ground with the most lethality and effectiveness and the minimum of resources expended…that’s injury and death on your side. having people who think its cool to drive around in an Abrams are the absolute wrong people to have serving.

    In passing, the SAS is fast heading for the bad, sole destroying days of post VietNam with no deployment and no career advancement.

  27. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Recruiting say they are having little problem meeting targets but the ads portray a woke community that you would “love” to join.

    “My Army gives me all the time I want with my children.”

  28. Chris M

    23 days non-combat duty off the coast of Vietnam…

    I also did a Ha Long bay cruise, was great. Well it’s good he fought and won these battles for us, thanks mate.

  29. Bela Bartok

    Mitchell’s cartoon in the Tele is a disgrace. Compares Australian infantryman with a Nazi.
    The joy to destroy those figures stronger than them is repulsive.

  30. maree

    David Kilcullen has a very objective , fair and deep piece on SASR in Afghanistan in this morning’s Weekend Australian. If you are a subscriber, it is a most informative read. Apparently there are means of getting behind the paywall if you are not a subscriber.

  31. Infidel Tiger

    Australia’s official state religion is now Karenism.

  32. miltonf

    Mitchell’s cartoon in the Tele is a disgrace. Compares Australian infantryman with a Nazi.
    The joy to destroy those figures stronger than them is repulsive.

    They’re giving BRS the full Alinsky like they did Pell.

  33. Vicki

    David Kilcullen has a very objective , fair and deep piece on SASR in Afghanistan in this morning’s Weekend Australian.

    Yep. Kilcullen describes the reality of the unequal burden placed on the SASR throughout our 20 years fighting in that godforsaken place.

    Especially applaud his remarks about the need to recognise shared culpability (if there is any) – right up to & including the governments of both parties that countenanced the dependence on our Special Forces.

  34. Perfidious Albino

    Rare that a patrol commander would be an officer, maybe an NCO. BRS was a corporal.

  35. Perfidious Albino

    Actually, the more I think about it the more disgusted I am with former admiral Chris Barrie. As the head of the Australian Defence Association, he is abusing his ‘authority’ to call for a spill of the war memorial board on the basis that they are alleged to be ‘too close’ to SF types, and demanding that any SAS related display be warehoused.

    Sounds like re-heated inter service rivalry to me, members should petition to have him dumped as the head of the ADA for bringing it into disrepute.

  36. Mater

    Rare that a patrol commander would be an officer, maybe an NCO. BRS was a corporal.

    More rare that it was a Corporal…by a long stretch.

    Each Troop is made up of four Patrols, one of which is commanded by the Tp Comd (Captain). The others by Sgts.
    When working as a Troop, the Captain commands.
    This is the way it works. Exceptions are rare.

  37. Professor Fred Lenin

    What defence force was he in command of ? Some two bob overseas shithole ?+

  38. Iain Russell

    ZK2A, Barrie is indeed emblematic of the fem-woke corruption of the ADF. He vies with David Morrison for Greatest Plonker of the Fall.

  39. dopey

    Still wondering what ‘credible’ evidence means.

  40. maree

    Having regard to allegations thrown against ADF personnel after Vietnam, I am surprised that wing of the War Memorial hasn’t been singled out for closure. My husband and his mates were accused of all kinds of atrocities, as baby and granny killers, throwing the enemy out of choppers, torture, etc, with not one allegation proven. It was a meme sparked by My Lai.

  41. Speedbox

    I’m sure the Yamashita doctrine has been discussed elsewhere on the Cat but perhaps military Cats could offer an opinion.

    Namely, that even setting aside the Yamashita Standard, I would have thought that an Officer was responsible for the actions of his soldiers. Further, the Officer did not actually have to be in the field at the time – he, and potentially his commanding officer are accountable (and potentially higher up the chain).

    This principle applies in business every day. It is not just the alleged wrongdoer but their boss and very easily the next level boss beyond that. Sometimes it goes up to the Board (subject to some criteria).

    Anyway, does military ‘protocol’ usually act the same way irrespective of the Yamashita Standard?

  42. Speedbox

    I have never served so have no background into this.

  43. Rex Anger

    @ Speedbox-

    Moreso than you think. This is why so many service and ex-service types are softly whistling like kettles right now.

    Riccardo Bosi explains it best in the video below. 0:00-16:00. Though you may derive interest from the rest of it as well…

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_title&time_continue=554&v=bV-5uJ6iccY

    Note how steamed he gets. Bosi is an ex- 2CDO Company Commander. Of the same vintage as Rick Burr and Angus Campbell.

  44. Vicki

    Anyway, does military ‘protocol’ usually act the same way irrespective of the Yamashita Standard?

    The current international military protocol deriving from the Geneva Conventions et al. are all cited and discussed at length in the Brererton Report. It is a long read, but worth reading to anticipate where they are heading.

    And yes – it is pretty clear that the culpability of relevant senior command is accepted. How far that chain goes, remains to be seen.

  45. lotocoti

    His naval career was honourable and impressive.

    I’m sorry, but that has to be disregarded.
    There were tales of BUCCANEER engaging in actual buccaneering, ie the taking of prizes without lawful authority.
    Or as what may be described these days as theft and looting from seized vessels.

  46. Entropy

    Adrian
    #3666604, posted on November 21, 2020 at 12:54 pm
    the fact that nothing has been proven yet in a court of law seems irrelevant to the media and their hangers on

    I suspect the plan is to so corruptly prejudice the atmosphere that a court case cannot proceed. Then of course the accused will never receive justice, but most importantly, the termites get to use the outrage to disband the only remaining effective military unit in favour of filling the ADF with full time SES workers.

  47. Gerry

    The war memorial is a small recognition of heroism and the sacrifice that the Australian service men and women have made. In no way should that recognition be diminished …..the heroism and sacrifice still stands as strong as ever.

  48. HP

    Morrison warns against trial by media on alleged war crimes


    Yeah.. that would be horrible, now wouldn’t it.
    But trail by and attention-seeking Prime Minister, however, is fine of course.

    For example, when Morrison as PM pre-judged cases that may end up in courts, when he said we were “required to deal with honest and brutal truths” in this report.

  49. Albatross

    Infidel Tiger
    #3666692, posted on November 21, 2020 at 2:21 pm
    Australia’s official state religion is now Karenism.

    More like Maoism.

  50. Speedbox

    Thanks Rex. Watched the first 16:00 …..then the next 20:00 and will finish off later.

    Riccardo is obviously a bit worked up – with justification. I have been very troubled at the way the Government and the media seem to have already made their decision as to the guilt of the soldiers. Indeed, both the PM and Minister for Foreign Affairs have already spoken with their counterparts in Afghanistan and reportedly apologized FFS.

    Beyond that, the report appears to be drawing a ‘pre-emptive’ line of responsibility where the Yamashita doctrine is already swept aside. Never mind standard military protocol.

    I have mentioned previously that I have no military background but I understand ‘natural justice’ well enough, and what I am seeing now has the hallmarks of a 17th century ‘witch trial’.

  51. BrettW

    Was talking to a recently retired senior officer who has served in Afghanistan. His son is still serving and is one of those who has the Meritorious Unit Citation which has been recommended to be taken away from the approx 3,000 who received it for service over several years. He says there is already action in progress to appeal the decision. His son also has a bravery award. Have been to his house and in pride of place is a picture frame with the award and photo of his son with the medal citation. I am guessing other families or ex servicemen have similar frames with their citations and medals etc.

    He was not happy with the unfairness of it in that the actions of the few are going to punish thousands. I doubt Angus Campbell has taken the time or sought advice about the impact his action might have on those suffering from PTSD and wondering what was the point of the whole deployment.

    I did a bit of Googling and both Campbell and Bill Burr (Chief of Army) are ex SAS although both before 2006. Burr was the CO SAS. The inquiry recommended looking into merit medals relating to command during the period of the inquiry (ie. 2006 to 2015 ish). Further looking around and I found a current MAJGEN Daniel McDaniel (currently on exchange in USA) who has extensive SAS service including command of the SAS during 2 years covered plus deployed to SOTG and receiving a medal for that deployment. There will be others who have received medals for merit whilst at SOTG and were probably destined for higher rank.

    I am not in favour of the idea of removing all medals and this aspect is going to cause much angst amongst those who served well and honourably. Not checked the dates but I am guessing it might be possible that some in SOTG who did receive medals for command and leadership may not actually have had troops under their command who are subject of allegations. For example a Captain in a Squadron which had no allegation raised during its tour of operations. A distinction needs to be made. Once you get higher up to LTCOL then surely the issue is more difficult to defend. For example Brisbane Times mentioned a particular patrol leader, considered a ring leader, who was known to have drink and DV issues at home but continued to be deployed. There the accountability rests with SAS HQ at home and senior officers who knew about his issues will probably have been in country with him at some time.

    One part of the report struck me as odd. It related to cases where there were investigations in country. It basically said since the investigator or team might only investigate one incident they would not be aware if there was a pattern. So for example a patrol leader who had major allegations made on three deployments the implication was that this might not be picked up. I call major BS on this. My reading of the report was not 100% but it was enough to see what was obviously missing. The incidents went on for 11 years ! The report does cover why it was hard to investigate cases . For example hard to go against operators risking their life, difficult to investigate on the ground etc. Another was that any allegations might be suggested to be Taliban propaganda. However the 4 Corners incident was as clear a case of murder as you will find. I recall reading in the paper but not in the Inquiry report that that case had been cleared after some sort of inquiry (obviously prior to footage appearing on national TV). Even if it was thought that villagers making allegations were Taliban efforts there would still presumably be a pattern if it was the same few patrol commanders involved. Villagers are hardly going to know the identities of the soldiers concerned. The patterns should have been there to see or at least further mentioned in the report. Surely the report should have commented on the 4 Corners case and looked into how that incident was initially covered. Of course it could be part of the redacted areas but I think the inquiry has deliberately not covered whether incidents were investigated. There was a mention of the SOTG Legal Officers running interference in relation to inquiries.Others might care to comment.

    I am guessing that those involved in the allegations of blooding and unlawful killings etc were also good at their patrol / operator jobs so it might be the case that higher ups preferred not to look for any patterns.

    It is noticeable that Chief of Defence Campbell and Chief of Army Burr are both ex SAS. Due to the nature of operations since 2001 this is hardly surprising. I am guessing it is guys like them (ie. Ex SAS) and the Special Operations Generals who were all ex SAS) who were briefing the Generals several years ago that SF / SAS could handle the continued deployments over so many years. This was the message given to the politicians. An article I read indicated the units were happy to be deployed. I am guessing the money was good. Basically nobody wanted it to stop or had the guts to tell the Govt they had to change the method of deployments.

    Saw a figure that does not include the incidents where Afghan soldiers shot Aussies. Basically SF had 60% of the deaths but only a small proportion of those serving.

    Either way senior officers should be held accountable and there must be many ways the information would have come to their attention. The inquiry does mention one incident going up to MAJ rank. In that case multiple soldiers were unhappy with what happened.

    Either way I find I am conflicted, in particular due to the 4 Corners footage if that is an example of the sort of things that happened. He was so casual about killing an unarmed civilian and don’t recall him saying to the camera helmet guy anything other than should he shoot him. Their casual attitude is also reflected in the fact they kept and apparently shared the footage of their involvement in a war crime. Too arrogant to be bothered about a proper cover up.

  52. Roger

    Morrison warns against trial by media on alleged war crimes

    Probably only because A-G Porter has told him to pull his head in.

    I’m beginning to think Cormann was right & Morrison is another PM with personality issues.

  53. Infidel Tiger

    Is there a single non defective person in politics?

    They are all sociopaths, narcissists and incredibly ignorant.

  54. NuThink

    Speedbox
    #3666789, posted on November 21, 2020 at 4:12 pm

    I would have thought that an Officer was responsible for the actions of his soldiers. Further, the Officer did not actually have to be in the field at the time – he, and potentially his commanding officer are accountable (and potentially higher up the chain).

    This principle applies in business every day. It is not just the alleged wrongdoer but their boss and very easily the next level boss beyond that. Sometimes it goes up to the Board (subject to some criteria).

    Especially in Victoria if an employee is killed the boss is responsible – but strangely not for premiers and their cohorts – who were doing it for our own good. So who could blame them higher up? Benevolent dictator comes to mind.

  55. C.L.

    Great contribution, Brett. Much appreciated.

    I am not in favour of the idea of removing all medals…

    I’m not sure I’m in favour of removing any medals.

    I notice that word again – stripping – is being thrown around by our cult-crazed media.
    Bettina Arndt – STRIP the award!
    George Pell – STRIP the award!

    Strip, strip, strippety strip.

    Cock heads.

  56. Roger

    Is there a single non defective person in politics?

    It woulod seem that normal people, who are mostly averse to crawling, backstabbing and lying, are weeeded out by what is required to advance in a political party these days.

  57. BrettW

    CL,
    I had a quick look through the lists for New Years and Queens Birthday Honours and the SF recipients seems to be those called Captain R or CPL J etc. Medal types are three :

    Individual bravery awards such as Medal for Gallantry or Star of Gallantry. In Ben Roberts Smith case there is the VC. There are not too many so if the recipient is not a subject of any allegations doubt there will be an issue. For BRS I doubt any allegation is related to the incident for which he got the VC. My personal view is even if convicted of something serious he still committed the act of bravery for VC and should retain it. His third medal (Commendation) is for his last trip to Afghanistan and is more for being a patrol leader than for an act of bravery. If something happened during that period then medal might be at risk. His Medal for Gallantry, as far as I am aware, is for a firefight, just after the first incident listed by the inquiry (I call it the Lone Survivor one). That incident has been cleared by the inquiry and quite rightly so. It therefore pre dates any other allegation made against him.

    The second type of medals according to the Honours lists are for Distinguished and Conspicuous Service type medals for command and leadership and job well done type reasons. If you were a Captain whose men had no allegations against them then should be no issue. However if two patrols under your direct command have been charged with offences then the medal should be looked into further. MAJGEN Mc Daniel’s medal is going to be interesting to see what happens. May affect a few others who are below MAJGEN rank.

    The big issue is the Citation as it is a group award for close to 3,000. The ex senior officer mentioned the clerk and the armourer type would lose it even though did not come close to a war crime type incident. I know what type of job his son did and definitely worthy of his citation. Don’t know for sure and probably never come up before but can say 30 people have unit citation taken off them whilst others keep it. Clearly the Inquiry and Angus Campbell think all must lose it and this is going to be a major morale issue.

    Might have to set up a small team to look into medals so that those who got them can have any doubts about keeping them removed. This would leave a few that might have to be reviewed once any trials completed. Senior HQ should not be removing medals until such cases resolved.

    As you would expect families of those who have received the citation or medals would be strong supporters of the military. Campbell needs to bear this in mind. He has forwarded his recommendation to the Govornor General (also an ex Chief of Defence and Army General). If it was my son I would be writing to the GG to ask him to reject Campbell’s blanket recommendation.

    “not sure I’m in favour of removing any medals”.

  58. Ed Case

    Forget the BBC AgitProp, here’s the latest on the Mink Cull, and forget 2.85 million culled Minks, the
    Feds are closer to 13 million down.
    Have a read of this, these people are out of control: https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201120-denmark-s-mink-farmers-despair-as-livelihood-dies

  59. Ed Case

    Wrong thread for Mink news, sorry about that.
    Anyway this bloke was quite famous in his day, Wiki is circumspect, but the NZ Dict. of Biography gives a better picture.
    He led the Maori Battalion in Italy in WW2, reputed to have executed POWs, lucky not to have been hanged for murder in NZ in the 1960s, still kept his MC and DSO: https://teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/5a27/awatere-arapeta-marukitepua-pitapitanuiarangi

  60. Zatara

    The retired admiral, who led the ADF when troops were first deployed to Afghanistan

    So, the man who accepted the conditions and ROE which put his soldiers into shitty, no-win situations, which might have directly led them to act improperly, is now out to de-nut them.

    Another senior political twat in uniform and total failure of moral leadership.

    “Where do we get such men?” asks RAdm Tarrant in the book ‘The Bridges at Toko-Ri’.
    Well you won’t be getting any more of them if you keep using them as political pawns.

  61. Bushkid

    Oh FFS, how about waiting for the outcome of any legal action, verdicts from actual court cases (and any appeals arising therefrom!) before going full retard on the SAS and any War Memorial displays, stripping of medals, etc.

    For goodness sake, nothing at all has even got to any courtroom as yet. These idiots just need to stop!

    The precedent was set with the hounding of Cardinal Pell, and the canvassing for “witnesses”, and now we have the bizarre situation where good men are more than likely going to be maligned and lied against simply because there’s a buck to be made in a country where lying to whitey is no problem at all. Witnesses have to be credible, and their testimony has to be proven before anyone can be judged guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

  62. Bushkid

    C.L.
    #3666927, posted on November 21, 2020 at 6:29 pm
    Great contribution, Brett. Much appreciated.

    I am not in favour of the idea of removing all medals…

    I’m not sure I’m in favour of removing any medals.

    I notice that word again – stripping – is being thrown around by our cult-crazed media.
    Bettina Arndt – STRIP the award!
    George Pell – STRIP the award!

    Strip, strip, strippety strip.

    Cock heads.

    Words are ammunition to the left. The nastier the connotations of the words used, the better to diminish and denigrate the “accused”. Communist public shaming all over again.

    The anger, hatred and absolute bastardly of the left continues to amaze me. Are these people so warped and futile as human beings that they are compelled to destroy anyone and anything that isn’t them, or something they “approve” of?

  63. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    The precedent was set with the hounding of Cardinal Pell, and the canvassing for “witnesses”

    I don’t have a reference, but weren’t there advertisements placed in the Pushtu language newspapers, also canvassing for witnesses?

  64. Bushkid

    Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
    #3666654, posted on November 21, 2020 at 1:46 pm
    Recruiting say they are having little problem meeting targets but the ads portray a woke community that you would “love” to join.

    “My Army gives me all the time I want with my children.”

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! Oh, how we laughed!

  65. Bushkid

    Boambee John
    #3666546, posted on November 21, 2020 at 12:10 pm
    Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
    #3666512, posted on November 21, 2020 at 11:40 am
    Chris Barrie? Wasn’t he part of the proble

    I didn’t recognise him in the photo. He has aged remarkably (and not well)?

    Aged indeed, and rather a lot! When I knew him, he had hair and it was more than a few shades darker than what’s left there now. I had to read the caption to know it was him.

    On a serious note, any CDF holding that office during the time any of these events are supposed to have occurred has to bear some responsibility. After all, the buck has to stop somewhere, doesn’t it. Waiving any such responsibility right at the start is not going to wear well.

  66. Bushkid

    Ah bugger! I confused my Commodores – it was Lord, not Barrie. No wonder it didn’t look like him! Mea culpa.

  67. Well being cynical about it and a bit Hi-Alanish, what would the following military record in an MPs bio indicate?

    Australian Regular Army from 1987-1993. Posting 1 MIL HOSP RACT, 22MP PL RACMP, 23MP PL RACMP, SIB Randwick RACMP, Army Reserve 1984-1987 SUP COY 2/17 RNSWR.

  68. candy

    “My Army gives me all the time I want with my children.”

    The Army must let lady Army people work 9 to 3 Monday to Friday with no deployment ever.

    I think it proves the regular Army is not a fighting force as we used to understand it, but just a public service employer with incredible benefits and highly suitable to women. It’s not really an Army anymore. It’s just a government department but with uniforms. There is no reason to make these people into heroes anymore. It is ridiculous to do so.
    The SAS is a completely different kettle of fish, which it seems certain parties want to destroy, in my opinion.

  69. Dr Faustus

    Not sure how the legal process of proving guilt is going to square away with compensation for the 39 identified alleged victims (and doubtless others waiting in line).

    Hopefully the Afghanis have a good understanding of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’.

  70. jupes

    From the wiki link:

    Barrie was a member of the commissioning crew of HMAS Brisbane and he later served in her during a seven month deployment to Vietnam, in 1969, where she operated on the gunline with the US Navy provided naval gunfire support to land forces ashore.

    It is quite possible that Barrie’s ship killed more than 39 (actual) civilians during these actions.

    Perhaps Brereton could earn himself a few more $mil investigating this.

  71. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! Oh, how we laughed!

    It’s an ad that sticks in my mind – the first time I saw it was when my D.V.A. card was delivered in the mail…

  72. jupes

    However the 4 Corners incident was as clear a case of murder as you will find.

    Bollocks.

    We don’t know what int briefing that was given prior to the assault.
    We don’t know what that Talib was doing before the footage started.
    We don’t know what was going on outside the area of the footage.
    We don’t know what the helicopters were reporting at the time.

    We do know that in the majority of helicopter assaults in Afghanistan, (actual) civilians leave the area.
    We do know that an enemy does not have to be armed to be a legitimate target.
    We do know that during an assault, there is not always time to take prisoners.
    We do know that the digger asked permission before shooting the Talib.

    I’d be surprised if he gets convicted. His life will be ruined of course, because the process is the punishment, but it is quite likely that what we witnessed was normal combat tactics, not much removed from the first assault wave in WW1.

  73. Rex Anger

    3667066, posted on November 21, 2020 at 9:57 pm
    Well being cynical about it and a bit Hi-Alanish, what would the following military record in an MPs bio indicate?

    Australian Regular Army from 1987-1993. Posting 1 MIL HOSP RACT, 22MP PL RACMP, 23MP PL RACMP, SIB Randwick RACMP, Army Reserve 1984-1987 SUP COY 2/17 RNSWR.

    Pogue.

    RACT is Royal Australian Corps of Transport. If Officer, in charge of a Transport Troop of about 8-12 trucks (or so. Not sure of exact numbers. I was Cav. Bite meee!). If not, just a Driver. Did transport tasks for Military Hospital in Sydney area.

    RACMP is Royal Australian Corps of Military Police. A widely disliked group, often comprised of killjoys and Karens with more power than their egos are rated to handle. Can do very useful and valuable work if performing Route Security, Rear Area Security and Close Personal Protection (my Platoon SGT at Kapooka in 2006 was one of these. Very decent guy). Not very much liked in a barracks situation.

    As MP, this individual either ran a Platoon, or if NCO (minimum rank of Lance Corporal in MPs) was an aforementioned killjoy. Amplified in Special Investigations Bureau role. All listed units would be at Randwick, Holsworthy or Dundas in Sydney.

    Corps Transfer to Infantry (maybe?) in Reserve service, but more likely carried out administrative taskings within 2/17’s Support Company.

  74. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    RACMP is Royal Australian Corps of Military Police. A widely disliked group, often comprised of killjoys and Karens with more power than their egos are rated to handle.

    A Corps best described as “fulfilling the maximum task for minimum minds.”

  75. BrettW

    Jupes,
    You raise some interesting points and no doubt a lot will be offered up in defence. I hope they work.

    One problem is that lies have presumably already been told in the initial cover up as the incident had apparently been investigated. However I would be most surprised if the version of events given matches what is shown in the camera footage which came out years later.

    A major problem with most of these cases is going to be that the prosecution will be aiming to turn some team members into witnesses against others in return for immunity. I presume the guy with the helmet camera is the more senior otherwise why ask him the question. Him not saying no is an issue for him but footage does not show he ordered it as such. I assume there are a few other soldiers nearby out of view. Their identities will all be known. If they offer immunity to one then any previously agreed version of events between the group is going to be seriously affected.

    In this case I find it incredible that after being cleared by an initial investigation the footage could still surface. One of the team or their mates has it in for at least the two nearest the deceased Afghan. Either that or the footage was so out in the open that it was not one of their team. Without the footage their chances at trial would be significantly better and issues you suggest could be more believable.

    I hope they get the best lawyer around. I am certainly not happy about any SF going to trial for something that happened in Afghanistan. However for not taking “care” of the footage they have assisted in their own prosecution and made the case far more difficult to get out of. Mind blowing stupidity.

  76. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    I hope they get the best lawyer around. I am certainly not happy about any SF going to trial for something that happened in Afghanistan

    How in the name of all that is holy is anyone going to get a fair trial, when some of the witnesses regard lying to unbelievers as acceptable, in the name of their backward religion?

  77. jupes

    One problem is that lies have presumably already been told in the initial cover up as the incident had apparently been investigated. However I would be most surprised if the version of events given matches what is shown in the camera footage which came out years later.

    Why do you presume the incident was covered up? If the Talib died in legitimate combat -which is a reasonable assumption – then there would have been no need for a cover up.

    The most likely crime here is that ADF leaders allowed the digger to be slandered by the ABC without even mentioning any of the mitigating circumstances. Just fucking disgraceful.

    Without the footage their chances at trial would be significantly better and issues you suggest could be more believable.

    Again, you are seeing what the ABC wants you to see. That footage could just as likely clear him. There is nothing wrong with killing unarmed enemy during an assault. Albert Jacka killed at least three Germans who surrendered to him during the action in Pozieres for which he was awarded an MC.

  78. jupes

    You are right about that footage though. While it most likely doesen’t show criminality, it does show SAS tactics and as we have seen, can be used as propaganda by the enemy (in this case the ABC).

    I would argue that they never should have taken any footage in the first place, however once it was taken then it should have been controlled by the squadron hierarchy. They fucked up. I suspect it was stolen by one of the so-called “whistleblowers”.

  79. BrettW

    Jupes,
    You use the words “legitimate combat” and say nothing wrong with killing an unarmed civilian during an assault. You mention footage shows SAS tactics.

    What I saw in the footage did not involve any form of combat or assault. It is a small team landing from a helicopter and running straight towards an unarmed man in a field. Man complies with instructions and is then shot dead. No weapon or communication device seen or mentioned. There is no other firing involved and the camera helmet guy and shooter do not appear concerned by any other dangers apart from the deceased.

    Like you suggest there could be multiple other things involved that are not shown in the footage. Say for example he was actually a known Taliban from that area and his poster was up in their briefing room saying a Taliban target. As much as I would be happy for his death the circumstances in the footage are hard to classify, in my mind, as a legitimate shooting. The shooter clearly thinks he deserved to die for whatever reason currently unknown to us. It is possible he could have been doing something prior to start of the footage.

    Hopefully any jury sees it more your way than from mine. My view is only based on the footage.

  80. jupes

    You use the words “legitimate combat” and say nothing wrong with killing an unarmed civilian during an assault.

    Why do you think he is a civilian? He is wearing the uniform of the Taliban.

    What I saw in the footage did not involve any form of combat or assault. It is a small team landing from a helicopter and running straight towards an unarmed man in a field. Man complies with instructions and is then shot dead. No weapon or communication device seen or mentioned. There is no other firing involved and the camera helmet guy and shooter do not appear concerned by any other dangers apart from the deceased.

    So you have been mislead by the footage. Don’t fret, the majority of viewers probably think that as well. However I am willing to bet that they didn’t fly out to kill one bloke in a field. Their objective was probably a few hundred meters away out of sight of the cameras. Maybe a compound.

    The Talib was taken down by the dog. Maybe you missed that. I’ll speculate as to why they ran to him straight from the helicopter. It could have been that he was firing at them while they were still in the air, or just ditched his weapon and ran when they landed. We don’t know, but that is a reasonable assumption in the circumstances.

    If the assaulters don’t appear concerned about other dangers, it’s probably because overwatch helicopters are reporting from the air and/or other teams have landed on their flanks.

    You have watched one tiny part of an assault without any context. Sad that you fall for ABC spin.

  81. Crossie

    I’m beginning to think Cormann was right & Morrison is another PM with personality issues.

    He is destined to be like Rudd and Turnbull as soon as he is turfed out.

  82. Crossie

    How in the name of all that is holy is anyone going to get a fair trial, when some of the witnesses regard lying to unbelievers as acceptable, in the name of their backward religion?

    And particularly after ads were run in Afghanistan to get them ready to perform.

  83. Dot

    The *American (Canadian, sorry I cannot recall…) witness* on the helicopter didn’t even see the incident. They just heard gun fire and assumed.

    I am fairly sure a competent court will declare that as hearsay but also unreliable the the context of a military action.

  84. Dot

    And particularly after ads were run in Afghanistan to get them ready to perform

    The Australian government are treating the SAS the same way Hitler treated the shoes.

    No. I am not kidding.

    This is seriously sick shit.

  85. maree

    Ben Roberts Smith is another George Pell war game in action. It is just too familiar from the left, they are now so obvious.

  86. Up The Workers!

    Regrettably, the mug-shot of the old codger in the photo doesn’t extend below waist-level.

    If it did, I wonder whether we might see that he is dressed in the specific uniform of a Labor-appointed Chief of the Defence Farces, which includes shaven legs, fishnet stockings and lurid red high-heels?

    Labor Defence Farce Chiefs have commanded whole fleets of paper-clips, pencils and staples, sailing over seas of Liquid Paper. Their aim is to have the enemy die of laughter at the very sight of the Australian Leftard Diversity uniform worn by its gladioli-waving commanders.

    Oddly enough, the last one I can recall in that uniform was somebody named “Morrison”.

    Relative, perhaps?

  87. Perfidious Albino

    I have no doubt that part of the pile on here is resentment of SF people getting a lot of the plum ‘Chief of’ jobs and trying to tear them down the next few tranches in advance.

  88. Vicki

    I’m sure most contributors to this thread have read, or at least scanned, the Bremerton Inquiry Report. It makes interesting reading on many counts. Much, of course, is redacted.

    https://afghanistaninquiry.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-11/IGADF-Afghanistan-Inquiry-Public-Release-Version.pdf

    In particular, it is important that the public should understand the the full implications of the altered rules of engagement that followed the mandating of the Geneva Conventions in western countries. I have argued elsewhere that these effectively negate effective use of Special Forces behind enemy lines and in many combat scenarios particularly in the Middle East.

    The report also notes that most of the western countries engaged in the field in Afghanistan have likewise undertaken proceedings against their soldiers for alleged war crimes. This, of course, has not been reported by our censorious press salivating at the opportunity to undermine our SASR.

  89. Vicki

    Sorry – typo – the Bremerton Inquiry, of course.

  90. Vicki

    I did it again! the BRERERTON Afghanistan Inquiry.

  91. Roger

    I have argued elsewhere that these effectively negate effective use of Special Forces behind enemy lines and in many combat scenarios particularly in the Middle East.

    Which brings us to the politicians who authorised it.

  92. BrettW

    Jupes,
    Hopefully the context behind the shooting clears the guys.
    Either way I think their QC is going to say to them he / she would have preferred to have not had ,the footage in evidence.

  93. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    War crimes claims: Special forces given too much responsibility, says ADF chief Angus Campbell
    Chief of the Australian Defence Force (ADF) General Angus Campbell is backing bodycams for soldiers.

    Richard Ferguson
    Reporter
    30 minutes ago November 22, 2020

    ADF chief Angus Campbell says special forces in Afghanistan may have been given too much responsibility, after the findings of the Brereton war crimes inquiry

    General Campbell is now backing the introduction of bodycams for ADF personnel in battle, in light of the revelations.

    The war crimes inquiry — which has recommended the investigation of 19 defence personnel over 39 unlawful killings of innocent Afghans — found the SAS was given tasks other areas of the ADF could have performed.

    General Campbell said some Afghan operations could only have been undertaken by SAS troops, but other parts of the army could have played a bigger role.

    “You’re right to say that special forces have been very busy over the last 20 years and they have had a very wide range of roles and responsibilities and operational commitments,” he told ABC News on Sunday.

    “In terms of their role in Afghanistan, there were aspects right from the start and all the way through that campaign which necessarily had to be done by special forces capability.

  94. BrettW

    Relative to my post at 7.53 last night there is an article in Fairfax by Masters etc about bravery medals.

    The issue of changing the facts relating to recommendation for awarding of medal is raised.

    Seems there is a suppression order relating to the identity of the medal winner (s) so draw your own conclusions

  95. Gyro Cadiz

    Ferking Chris bloody Barrie.

    I worked for that tool after he was CDF. A more narcissistic, self-centred knob it is impossible to find. Horrible human being, he’d render his grannie down at the glue factory for a buck. Navy people hated him.

    But this got the old bastard a headline. Global warmie.

    And nobody ever did find out how he got the moolah to afford his estate and lifestyle in Greece.

  96. Natural Instinct

    ZK2A at 10:44 am

    General Campbell is now backing the introduction of bodycams for ADF personnel in battle, in light of the revelations.

    I read that bit and saw Brereton’s rationale as “police use them” and it has been successful.
    I then thought about the details of how it would work in a war – slightly different to the suburbs of Sydney.
    Fail everywhere from equipment malfunction thought to who is going to look at thousand of hours of boring footage to get to the important bits.

  97. Whalehunt Fun

    innocent afghans

    No such thing exists. These filth were harbouring the scum that did the WTC and tried it on here. They are all, man woman and child, guilty and should have been put to the sword. You harbour someone who wants me dead, I want you dead and everyone related to you. I want your livestock burned, your wells poisoned and you lands salted. I want you not just dead, I want every trace of your having existed, expunged.

  98. Whalehunt Fun

    And as for the scum that object you doing something toward my wishes, they are not entitled to hold an opinion, much less express one.

  99. Mustapha Bunn

    All this has happened in Britain. Ambulances chasing scum bag lawyers advertising for Afghanis to come forward with stories of the killing of innocent civilians. Claims for compensation and legal expenses for the claimants paid for by the tax payer etc.A nice little earner for all concerned but fuck you Jack if the claims are untrue.
    Even now British soldiers are being chased through the courts over events in Northern Ireland back in the 70/80’s. The IRA were all given pardons of course.

  100. John Comnenus

    Barrie was part of the problem of promoting a risk averse war by using special forces. It was short sighted, craven “leadership” of the worst kind. In the end military officers are responsible for the maintenance of good discipline and military order and the conduct of their men. I think this will become a particular problem for Campbell who appears to have been the task force commander at the height of the problem.

    I think both General Campbell and LTGEN Burr should resign. The very best interpretation of events is that this culture of criminality festered under their leadership. Furthermore, I find it impossible to believe that the Troop and Squadron Officers either knew nothing about this or hadn’t heard the rumours.

    But the final point to note is that Barrie is pre-emptying the process of charging those allegedly involved and giving them their day in court. Innocent til proven guilty is still allegedly a thing in Australia.

  101. Clam Chowdah

    t is quite possible that Barrie’s ship killed more than 39 (actual) civilians during these actions.

    So you admit killing civilians is an issue. That’s a start.

  102. Fred

    I think all officers at Russell Hill should wear body cams.

  103. Clam Chowdah

    I think both General Campbell and LTGEN Burr should resign. The very best interpretation of events is that this culture of criminality festered under their leadership. Furthermore, I find it impossible to believe that the Troop and Squadron Officers either knew nothing about this or hadn’t heard the rumours.

    Yes. Completely agree.

  104. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Taliban ‘war crimes hypocrites’
    Amanda Hodge
    SOUTHEAST ASIA CORRESPONDENT
    @hodgeamanda
    48 minutes ago November 22, 2020
    No Comments

    The Afghan government has ­defended Australia’s legacy in ­Afghanistan as “overwhelmingly positive” and denounced the ­Taliban as hypocritical after the insurgents pounced on war crimes allegations against SAS troops at the weekend to demand punishment for “savage, degenerate invader” forces.

    The militant group called for those responsible for war crimes in Afghanistan to be punished “so that it may heal the hearts of the victims”, and warned that alle­gations detailed in the Brereton report were only the tip of an iceberg of atrocities committed by coalition troops.

    The statement was uploaded to the Taliban’s official website on Saturday, coinciding with fresh rocket attacks on the capital, Kabul, which killed eight and wounded dozens more. At least 163 civilians have been killed in November alone in Afghanistan’s ongoing insurgency.

    A senior Afghan government official on Sunday dismissed the comments as attempted propaganda, pointing to continued attacks against civilians and government forces even as the insurgents claim to be prosecuting for peace.

    Ahmad Shuja Jamal, director general of international affairs and regional co-operation in ­Afghanistan’s Office of the Nat­ional Security Council, told The Australian his government was shocked by the details in the Brereton report and welcomed Scott Morrison’s assurances to President Ashraf Ghani that prosecutions would be pursued.

    A four-year investigation by NSW Court of Appeals judge Paul Brereton found credible evidence that Australian special forces soldiers committed, or directed, up to 39 murders of non-combatants in 23 separate incidents, and ordered junior soldiers to kill Afghan prisoners and civilians in a practice known as “blooding”.

  105. jupes

    General Campbell is now backing the introduction of bodycams for ADF personnel in battle, in light of the revelations.

    Stupid beyond belief.

  106. jupes

    So you admit killing civilians is an issue. That’s a start.

    The absence of a weapon does not make a Talib a civilian.

  107. Perfidious Albino

    Sorry lads, we’ve had to scrub the mission, private Jones forgot to plug the body cameras into the charger again…

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