George Floyd was a life-destroying nuisance and a suicide

The medical examiner also found that Floyd had enough fentanyl in his system — I don’t want to say “to kill a horse,” because that would be a cliche. But it would be enough to bump off an entire team of Budweiser Clydesdales.”

Ann Coulter

 
These two men are not so much covering their own bottoms as they are defending themselves from personal and career destruction, if not assassination. For their cowardice, both deserve to be dealt with mercilessly by Chauvin’s attorneys. Not that it is likely to make any difference. The jury in this case – itself at risk (you don’t really believe the names of ‘not guilty’ holdouts couldn’t possibly be leaked, right?) – knows what it is expected to do. Chauvin’s legal strategy will most likely be to take cultural advantage of the fashionable “systemic” apportionment of blame and be the hapless patsy. That will fail in practice, however, because in the doll’s eyes of a leftist mob a guilty verdict kills the second bird of ‘institionalised racism’ with the same stone anyway.

There is also, of course, the irksome matter of Hennepin County Chief Medical Examiner Andrew Baker’s report which found no evidence of injury or trauma to Floyd’s neck or to any other part of his body. That would raise more than enough reasonable doubt in a rational age. How compelling it is to a generation for which post hoc ergo propter hoc isn’t a fallacy but an axiom remains to be seen. Derek Chauvin may not be a commissioner’s poster boy as a policeman but pretending there is some repeatable protocol for wrangling giant, erratic drug addicts is precious.

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190 Responses to George Floyd was a life-destroying nuisance and a suicide

  1. Chris M says:

    Derek Chauvin may not be a commissioner’s poster boy as a policeman

    Yeah, maybe not eh.

    Chauvin is poster boy thug cop, just as dangerous as Floyd and needs a good spell inside.

  2. Farmer Gez says:

    Chauvin was asked to relent many times but took the bully boy route of continuing to show he was in charge.
    Floyd was in a fragile state that was unknown to the cops but you can’t use that to explain the length of time he was pinned down.

  3. Roger says:

    Floyd was in a fragile state that was unknown to the cops but you can’t use that to explain the length of time he was pinned down.

    Poor policing, yes…but murder?

    In the current climate in the US I’m afraid that question is academic.

  4. Farmer Gez says:

    Not murder in my books either.
    We are looking at the end of trial by jury thanks to social media and a the vigilantes of the left media.
    Perhaps that’s a good thing if we relate it back to the Pell trial.

  5. Kneel says:

    “…Floyd had enough fentanyl in his system…”

    Coronor’s report says 11ng/ml fentanyl in the blood and 5.6ng/ml norfentanyl in the urine (post mortem). Norfentanyl is metabolite of fentanyl, BTW.

    Analgesia dose is 1-2 ng/ml.
    Anesthetic dose is 10-20 ng/ml.

    Not sure what pre- to post-metabolism ratios are, but he may have had enough in his system to seriously suppress his respiratory system – he was complaining he couldn’t breathe before he was “held” and asked to be laid down, not sitting.
    He had previously OD’ed, and was presenting the exact same symptoms as then – difficulty breathing, stomach pains, foaming at the mouth etc. When asked about this, he said he’d been exercising heavily (playing basketball?) and didn’t mention drug use.
    That sounds to me like sufficient “reasonable doubt” to wipe the manslaughter charge.

    Both the murder charges would be extremely difficult to prove – intent and/or deliberate negligence is integral to those charges in that state.

    Police training includes using this very same “hold” to safely constrain a suspect.

    Given the above, I think Chauvin will almost certainly be found “not guilty” – and the riots will ensue. Which they will anyway, even if he’s found guilty. Because “racism”.

  6. calli says:

    Given the above, I think Chauvin will almost certainly be found “not guilty” – and the riots will ensue. Which they will anyway, even if he’s found guilty. Because “racism”.

    Precisely. Floyd is a useful vehicle for the rank and file to justify theft at best, arson and murder at worst.

    The riots will be quelled largely by white law enforcement, thus re-enforcing “white supremacism” in the grievance culture. And so it will go on, ever escalating into all out race war.

    Which is just the way the Dems like it. Their slaves still endure chains, this time invisible to the wearer. But chains all the same. And they will never let them go.

  7. m0nty says:

    Yesterday on CL’s menu: misogyny.

    Today: racism.

    Tomorrow: probably both.

  8. Entropy says:

    Just the way you like it, Monty.

  9. Kneel says:

    “Which is just the way the Dems like it.”

    Indeed.
    Critical Race Theory says that your character traits are dependent upon your race, which sounds like racism to me. I prefer MLK’s dream, where people are judged on the content of their character rather than the colour of their skin.
    I guess that’s old fashioned and makes you so un-hip your bum will fall off – so be it, because the alternative is very much worse for everyone.

  10. wal1957 says:

    …and Montys point is?????

  11. Kneel says:

    “…and Montys point is?????”

    Covered up by artful combing of the hair. 🙂

  12. C.L. says:

    Chauvin is poster boy thug cop, just as dangerous as Floyd and needs a good spell inside.

    Don’t be silly.

    Floyd was in a fragile state that was unknown to the cops but you can’t use that to explain the length of time he was pinned down.

    He was waiting for an ambulance to arrive. Drugged men of that size have to be controlled at all times.

    There are numerous incidents on video from the US where a seemingly collared and compliant drug offender explodes suddenly and either escapes or kills the cop.

  13. JC says:

    m0nty says:
    April 3, 2021 at 1:20 pm
    Yesterday on CL’s menu: misogyny.

    Today: racism.

    Tomorrow: probably both.

    While on the subject of menus, what’s the donut count today, monst?

  14. IL Willis says:

    Kneel says:
    April 3, 2021 at 12:53 pm
    “Given the above, I think Chauvin will almost certainly be found “not guilty” – and the riots will ensue.”

    Not a chance Kneel.
    No juror is going to risk their life by deciding Chauvin is not guilty.
    I suspect more than a few jurors lied about their supposed impartiality, to get a shot at the guilty verdict and the “fame” that would follow.
    The appeal will be interesting however, although Minnesota is so deep-blue he probably won’t get a fair hearing there either.
    Agree there will be riots no matter what the verdict ….

    Chris M says:
    April 3, 2021 at 12:04 pm
    “Chauvin is poster boy thug cop, just as dangerous as Floyd and needs a good spell inside.”
    Maybe. We don’t really know much about Chauvin except that video.
    However, he did use an approved police method for control of non-compliant persons, Floyd was a large agitated man, and Chauvin (or partner) had called for medical assistance. Floyd showed no physical ill effects from Chauvin’s actions, according to the state coroner.

  15. Professor Fred Lenin says:

    Floyd is a perfect hero for the global fascists ,a sort of Horst Wessels Like the Hitler socialists had ,a complete mongrel, made into a hero by media .
    All his supporters would have crapped themseles if the drug addled waste of space had confronted them ,they would have called the Police to ;protect them and approved of any measures used to detain him sheer antifafascist and Bolshevik Lies Matter bullshit .
    The left are a pitifull bunch of idealogues ,weak as water .

  16. MatrixTransform says:

    Tomorrow: probably both.

    mUnty you seriously are a bobble head

    Catallaxy’s noddy dog on the parcel shelf …an ever dancing pot plant in sunglasses on the dash board

  17. MatrixTransform says:

    in the doll’s eyes of a leftist mob

    CL kicks another

    noice!

  18. Lee says:

    …and Montys point is?????

    He doesn’t have one.
    Unless he has predetermined Chauvin’s guilt – never let facts or evidence get in the way – and it is racist to say otherwise.

  19. C.L. says:

    Monty’s hero – Joe Biden – is currently presiding over the worst Latino child detention and sex trafficking disaster in US history.
    ————
    Calli, I think that’s right: the Democrats probably hope Chauvin is acquitted.
    ————
    I was the first to post the Chauvin video here at Catallaxy. Initially, I was outraged by what I saw. Having read about the entire incident from beginning to end, I now realise that Chauvin was trying to control an erratic, drugged individual. While I’m not entirely sure why he and other officers didn’t get Floyd up on his feet and into the car, the record does show they tried repeatedly to do so earlier but Floyd wouldn’t comply. Soon after, the situation became one not of arrest and booking but of ad hoc detainment awaiting medical attendance.

    I would say Chauvin may be guilty of a degree of negligence (by persisting with that emergency hold too long) and therefore – possibly – manslaughter. Talk of “murder” in any degree is just politics.

  20. PB says:

    The missing link is the reach and extent of Black violent crime in the US which has led to guys like Chauvin doing their job the way they do, and why they are trained, and led to think as they do. A kind of positive feedback process on both sides if you like.

  21. Damon says:

    The video may have been disturbing to people not used to dealing with drug-crazed lunatics, but Chauvin used an officially sanctioned method of restraint. Furthermore, Floyd was heard, on video, to say, quite clearly “I can’t breathe”; a remarkable statement from a person being strangled. Even if Chauvin is found not guilty, he can’t be released, because someone would surely kill him.

  22. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha says:

    Catallaxy’s noddy dog on the parcel shelf …an ever dancing pot plant in sunglasses on the dash board

    Well said!

  23. Arky says:

    I was the first to post the Chauvin video here at Catallaxy. Initially, I was outraged by what I saw.

    ..
    Remember that. You were disgusted, as was I.
    Reactions that were nothing to do with race.
    You should apologise Monty, that was a disgrace.

  24. Whalehunt Fun says:

    It might be contrary to what this buffoon believes in but it is exactly aligned with my beliefs. The safe arrival at a police station lockup of any repeat offending criminal is a shame and a disgrace. What is also a shame is that I am not on the jury to vote not guilty with a recommendation of a commendation.

  25. Muddy says:

    C.L. says:
    April 3, 2021 at 2:19 pm

    I would say Chauvin may be guilty of a degree of negligence (by persisting with that emergency hold too long) and therefore – possibly – manslaughter. Talk of “murder” in any degree is just politics.

    I’ve mostly refrained from commenting on this issue, because I don’t feel that anyone of us has all of the information required to make a judgement. I haven’t watched the video of Floyd’s arrest, and do not intend to. I was not there and subject to those circumstances. I have, however, had to deal with aggressive persons in the past, without the benefit of law enforcement resources.

    My thoughts are similar to those of C.L. quoted above, and I wonder if initially, officer Chauvin chose to keep Floyd in that position because he judged there was a better chance of Floyd calming, and thus presenting less of a danger to his own safety. I’m not aware of when the officers’ became aware of Floyd losing consciousness, however I imagine that will be a key point regarding negligence to follow procedure.

    My only other thought is regarding the almost-certain violence following the public announcement of the verdict: I would be confident that the skeletal plans for destruction have already been made by the core of insurgents (or their funding masters). I would not be surprised if the violence is initiated prior to any public announcement of the verdict. Lastly, if the security powers-that-be do not already have a firm idea of who the core insurgents are, and what their intentions are, this lack of knowledge has been purposeful.

  26. Rodney Henderson says:

    George Floyd carried out a home invasion where he pointed a loaded pistol at a pregnant woman’s stomache and demanded money.
    If he had killed the mother and child, there would have been no reports, no protests, nothing.
    Black criminal’s lives matter, not black women and children.

  27. JC says:

    Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. They’ve been problems with strong-arm tactics and arsehole tendencies of American cops for years. Think Vic Pol and possibly worse. The vid of the cop on the dude’s neck was the last straw for both whites and blacks. Breaking into people’s homes with huge swat teams when people are asleep…. even picking the wrong house at times. Shooting people on flimsy grounds. Anyone recall the vid of the poor white dude crawling along a carpeted hotel corridor, frightened stiff who was finally shot my the murderous piece of shit cop.

    Tell me if you don’t think say Vic Pol needs to be partially de-funded as I do. Same with some cop departments in the US.

    That cop on Floyd’s neck demonstrated a callous indifference to his plight. It may not be a homicide but the cop is a scumbag.

  28. Whalehunt Fun says:

    The callous indifference is exactly why I admire the guy. People who make the world safer for me and mine are heroes. Their callous indifference is to be not only applauded but taught in every police force.

  29. Arky says:

    Tell me if you don’t think say Vic Pol needs to be partially de-funded as I do. Same with some cop departments in the US.

    ..
    Just because police behaviour in black jurisdictions has been seized on by the usual Marxist arseholes as another thing to undermine the US, doesn’t mean that there isn’t problems with the way those places are policed.
    I’d be as resentful as hell if I was subject to some of the stops you see.
    Coppers need to prioritise letting people go about their business and not detain anyone without probable cause.
    That is seperate from good policing, where an active and visible and FRIENDLY police presence improves crime statistics and improves police relations.

  30. Rex Anger says:

    +1 Arky.

  31. Arky says:

    It’s why there were height restrictions on coppers and why 5′ nothing blonde chicks with a power complex make very bad coppers.

  32. Luke73 says:

    I’m guessing whatever the paramedic(s), medical expert(s) and coroner(s) say will be the most crucial and determinative testimony.

    Not a particularly clever observation but there it is.

  33. JC says:

    Arkeneald

    I strongly recommend Alice Goffman’s

    On the Run: Fugitive Life in an American City

    It’s an excellent depiction of the pathology of large American urban areas.

  34. C.L. says:

    America has a weird obsession with police and policing that has always puzzled me. Land of the Free on one hand; fetished coppers on the other. Conservatives are part of the problem. The same people who love their Constitution also habitually make a fuss about their (exaggerated) love for Law Enforcement.

    Ace often writes about conservatives struggling to break away from their fetishised love of the FBI – those beloved “men with guns and badges in suits.” (Who happen to be totalitarian douchebags).

  35. Rex Anger says:

    America has a weird obsession with police and policing that has always puzzled me. Land of the Free on one hand; fetished coppers on the other. Conservatives are part of the problem

    Institutional respect for law enforcers who were generally respectful in turn of their law-abiding citizenry.

    Same as the Peel’s principles of policing. When one or both sides choose to stop honouring that social contract, it comes down to force.

    I am disappointed that I have to remind Cats of this. It is a liberal and libertarian concept alike.

    Emoting contemptuously because it is fashionable is a leftist thing…

  36. JC says:

    Tragic.

    No kidding, sitting on a step in the summer in a large US city is the quintessential depiction of American life in hot summer evenings in urban neighborhoods. Urban policing made it almost criminal.

    Forty years in, the War on Drugs has done almost nothing to prevent drugs from being sold or used, but it has nonetheless created a little-known surveillance state in America’s most disadvantaged neighborhoods. Arrest quotas and high-tech surveillance techniques criminalize entire blocks, and transform the very associations that should stabilize young lives—family, relationships, jobs—into liabilities, as the police use such relationships to track down suspects, demand information, and threaten consequences.

    Alice Goffman spent six years living in one such neighborhood in Philadelphia, and her close observations and often harrowing stories reveal the pernicious effects of this pervasive policing. Goffman introduces us to an unforgettable cast of young African American men who are caught up in this web of warrants and surveillance—some of them small-time drug dealers, others just ordinary guys dealing with limited choices. All find the web of presumed criminality, built as it is on the very associations and friendships that make up a life, nearly impossible to escape. We watch as the pleasures of summer-evening stoop-sitting are shattered by the arrival of a carful of cops looking to serve a warrant; we watch—and can’t help but be shocked—as teenagers teach their younger siblings and cousins how to run from the police (and, crucially, to keep away from friends and family so they can stay hidden); and we see, over and over, the relentless toll that the presumption of criminality takes on families—and futures.

    While not denying the problems of the drug trade, and the violence that often accompanies it, through her gripping accounts of daily life in the forgotten neighborhoods of America’s cities, Goffman makes it impossible for us to ignore the very real human costs of our failed response—the blighting of entire neighborhoods, and the needless sacrifice of whole generations.

  37. JC says:

    Good post and comments, CL.

  38. Mick Gold Coast QLD says:

    Roger says at 12:39 pm:

    “Floyd was in a fragile state that was unknown to the cops but you can’t use that to explain the length of time he was pinned down.

    Poor policing, yes…but murder?”

    “Poor policing, yes…” It’s easy isn’t it? A dismissive wave and a leap to the clear and obvious conclusion.

    Try reading:

    Derek Chauvin’s Trial: Countdown to a Kangaroo Court, American Spectator, George Parry, Feb ’21 from a former federal and state prosecutor. Follow his link to the “devastating FBI 302 report (linked to here) of a July 8, 2020, interview of Hennepin County Medical Examiner Andrew Baker regarding Floyd’s autopsy” which was held back by the prosecution because it blows them out of the water evidently.

    I read a couple of accounts from Parry last year which culminated in this 25 minute video which is worth watching, for anyone interested in facts and data Who killed George Floyd, narrated by George Parry, Sept ’20

    Have a look at Bar Beach Swimmer on March 9, 2021 at 9:37 pm (Open Forum) recounting to me what the prosecution got up to in the Zimmerman trial; enjoy the farce of widely loved and admired George’ jury selection from March 8 to 24, reported at PowerLine blog.

    That should alter the ease you had in arriving at “Poor policing, yes…”

    The cop followed departmental procedures; the local mayor cheered the savages on as they destroyed the city’s future, knelt, gripped dead George’s elaborate wooden box and wept; and later signed off on a $27m gift to the family for no good reason. Chauvin is mid 40s and he has lost the lot – job, wife, anonymity, likely his freedom – all because the US has nothing to be proud of and is in a hurry to surrender.

  39. vicki says:

    I had read about the extent of the Fentanyl, but had not read the examiner’s failure to detect significant injury on the body.

    Certainly, mitigating factors were was the presence of drugs affecting the offender, his very formidable bulk and his refusal to cooperate.

    Whilst disciplinary action may be in order for excessive pressure exerted on the man’s neck, I cannot see how a manslaughter or murder charge could be easily sustained in normal circumstances.

    Sadly, these are not normal circumstances and the process of the law, indifferent to social pressures, seems a thing of the past.

  40. Muddy says:

    That’s a measured response, Mick GC.

  41. Arky says:

    If Chauvin had been making the least attempt to look like he was monitoring the bloke instead of staring stupidly at the people recording him, just talking to the dude or looking at him, it would be a different story.
    It’s not hard. One or two cops tasked with looking out and dealing with the crowd: “Paramedics are on the way folks, nothing to worry about”. And the cops dealing with Floyd looking half professional and like they might be paying some attention to the bloke’s state.
    It’s the attitude, on top of years of stopping and searching and pissing people off.

  42. Tator says:

    For those who think Chauvin will be convicted, maybe you should study the SCOTUS decision on Connor V Graham which is the defining decision on police use of force.
    Let alone the existence of exculpatory evidence in the full Autopsy report from Dr Baker which has zero forensic evidence supporting the Prosecution case as there was zero trauma to the neck muscles and zero evidence of asphyxiation or hypoxia externally or in microscopic examination of brain tissue samples.
    This plus the lethal dose of Fentanyl, the severe arteriosclerosis in 4 cardiac arteries and the presence of methamphetamine which is a well know cardiac antagonist just shows how the prosecution is grasping at straws by claiming the video is the proof that Floyd was asphyxiated by the knee on the neck.

  43. Boambee John says:

    You should apologise Monty, that was a disgrace.

    munty is a disgrace.

  44. Albatross says:

    m0nty says:
    April 3, 2021 at 1:20 pm
    Yesterday on CL’s menu: misogyny.

    Today: racism.

    You’re such a fucking idiot.

  45. Albatross says:

    How many of you have tried to restrain an agitated, ripped, 6’4″ man who was off his gourd?

    I hate cops as much as anyone else, but those here following along with the divide-and-dominate rhetoric from the media are absolutely pathetic. You are literally angry because your TV told you to be.

  46. jo says:

    Glad to see another scumbag gone. He can say hello to Ricky Slater. Just remember folk its always someone else’s fault.

  47. Arky says:

    How many of you have tried to restrain an agitated, ripped, 6’4″ man who was off his gourd?

    ..
    At the point where the dude is dying and you are crouched there with your hand in your pocket looking at a bunch of citizens filming you and telling you you are killing him, ‘restraint” isn’t what’s happening, and the faintest spark of self preservation should have kicked in and this oaf should have attempted to look the least bit concerned for Floyd’s welfare.

  48. Roger says:

    That’s a measured response, Mick GC.

    Chuckle.

    That should alter the ease you had in arriving at “Poor policing, yes…”

    Floyd was restrained and handcuffed, Chauvin had no reason to apply the neck restraint for nine minutes. It’s poor policing.

    Chauvin is mid 40s and he has lost the lot – job, wife, anonymity, likely his freedom – all because the US has nothing to be proud of and is in a hurry to surrender.

    Which is why I wrote that the murder charge was academic; Chauvin cannot get a fair trial in that city where his guilt has been assumed, as the judge in the American Sceptator piece you link to states.

    Well, we’ll see.

  49. Muddy says:

    At the point where the dude is dying

    You could tell that, simply by viewing the edited footage?

    looking at a bunch of citizens filming you

    Could any of them have been armed?
    It’s not like anyone ever walks up to a police officer, sitting in his car, for example, and just shoots them in their head, is it?
    Nah, unprovoked shit like that never happens.

  50. Arky says:

    You could tell that, simply by viewing the edited footage?

    ..
    No. From the fact that he died. Hence the murder trial.
    ..

    Could any of them have been armed?

    ..
    Maybe, hence: “It’s not hard. One or two cops tasked with looking out and dealing with the crowd:”.

  51. Mick Gold Coast QLD says:

    Albatross says at 5:10 pm:

    “How many of you have tried to restrain an agitated, ripped, 6’4″ man who was off his gourd?”

    I have the benefit of having seen how these things were dealt with decades ago, before the politicians took control (because their departmental “advisors” – social re-imaginers, anarchists – told them they must). Frank Walker, NSW attorney general under Neville Wran, led the left on a crusade to make life easy for the primitives and doped up flotsam and jetsam, emptied the asylums and had Tony Vinson introduce unlocked back door prison management.

    The new age magistrates hated the cops and aided and abetted the criminals in eroding their authority.

    As a consequence the relationships all changed. When a mate (Mick) woke to find an intruder in his lounge room the bloke, of no description whose family had been here for a hundred thousand years, pulled a knife which displeased Mick. He frog marched him across the room, out onto the balcony and over the balustrade to the concrete a floor or two below.

    The cops turned up to find the fool seriously broken, screaming and crying for help. The neighbours wanted them to step in, which they said they could not do – their standing orders were to wait for the ambulancemen because they did not have the requisite expertise (and could be readily sued). This would have been mid ’90s.

    Prior to then the cops would have made him more comfortable but the educated experts had stopped that.

    “Reasonable” policing behaviour is a moveable feast now and everyone outside the field is an expert, as has been evident this week from the weeping testimony in Minneapolis of passers-by who had no knowledge of anything much apart from a few minutes glancing and “Oh my God!”-ing”.

  52. Muddy says:

    If the neck restraint was not inhibiting the ability of the restrained person to breathe, keeping that same person in a position where they had less opportunity to physically resist arrest, until the arrival of medical assistance, may have been the safest option for the subject. Had opportunity been provided for the subject to demonstrate a further physical threat to the police officers involved – by attempting to stand him on his feet and place him in a police vehicle – the situation may have escalated to the point where lethal force may have been necessary.

    I have no special knowledge of that type of restraint.

    The question is: Was Officer Chauvin aware that George Floyd was experiencing symptoms of medical distress, and did he, Chauvin, take the appropriate measures to manage those symptoms with the resources available to him at the time?

  53. dover_beach says:

    If

    Hennepin County Chief Medical Examiner Andrew Baker…found no evidence of injury or trauma to Floyd’s neck or to any other part of his body

    then concern about Chauvin’s knee on Floyd’s neck is otiose. He would have died anyway.

  54. Dr Faustus says:

    I’m guessing whatever the paramedic(s), medical expert(s) and coroner(s) say will be the most crucial and determinative testimony.

    Not a particularly clever observation but there it is.

    Should be the case, you would think.

    My (100% inexpert) impression is that the outcome will however turn on Sgt Pleoger and Chief Arradondo’s testimony that Chauvin was way out of line with procedure in continuing neck compression after Floyd was subdued.

    Whether prejudiced or not, the jury will be acutely aware of the certain personal and community price of finding ‘reasonable doubt’.

    Faced with the already foreshadowed conflict in expert testimony on Floyd’s pathology, clear and unequivocal police statements of Chauvin’s apparent recklessness in applying force will likely allow the jury to find guilt on at least one of the charges with an easy (or easier) conscience.

  55. B.A Lert says:

    Floyd case no evidence of murder but authorities desperate to prove murder. Jeff Epstein case shows evidence of murder but authorities desperate to prove suicide.

  56. Muddy says:

    Look at it this way:

    If Chauvin’s knee had not been placed on Floyd’s neck at any point, would you consider it a wise decision to keep the suspect on the ground until the arrival of medical assistance? (Bearing in mind that a struggle had taken place, and the suspect claimed to have difficulty breathing).

  57. Roger says:

    Look at it this way:

    If Chauvin’s knee had not been placed on Floyd’s neck at any point, would you consider it a wise decision to keep the suspect on the ground until the arrival of medical assistance?

    Not in the prone position, which all police and prison officers know (or should know) is associated with asphyxia, particularly in people with small or large builds and those under the influence of intoxicants. The prisoner should be sat up or at least rolled to his or her side to avoid this danger.

  58. Tator says:

    Another legal opinionHERE

  59. Albatross says:

    Arky says:
    April 3, 2021 at 5:48 pm
    You could tell that, simply by viewing the edited footage?

    ..
    No. From the fact that he died.

    LOL. Too stupid to respond to. I rest my case.

  60. Albatross says:

    Jesus. The guy was 6’8″.

  61. Muddy says:

    Not in the prone position, which all police and prison officers know (or should know) is associated with asphyxia, particularly in people with small or large builds and those under the influence of intoxicants. The prisoner should be sat up or at least rolled to his or her side to avoid this danger.

    Fair point.
    If this position was contrary to procedure, and it is established that the maintenance of such a position contributed to Floyd’s death, it may be that Chauvin is culpable of manslaughter, or however that offence is titled.

    The knee restraint seems a separate issue.

  62. Muddy says:

    Was it possible for Officer Chauvin to manoeuvre Floyd into such a position?

  63. Albatross says:

    Muddy says:
    April 3, 2021 at 6:41 pm
    Was it possible for Officer Chauvin to manoeuvre Floyd into such a position?

    Yeah sure. Just like three of them could easily get him into the back of the squad car.

  64. Scott Osmond says:

    Every time I read a comment from Monty I’m reminded that every village needs it’s village idiot. Thanks for taking on this vital role.
    As for the druggo, no one is payed enough to put up with a oversized person who has self-medicated on a cocktail of drugs and who may do anything at all. Having spoken to ambos, er workers and police I’m extremely unsympathetic to anyone who willingly ingests this sort of thing. Second overdose and I’d say leave them to Saint Darwin and the universal rule of consequences.

  65. Tel says:

    For those who think Chauvin will be convicted, maybe you should study the SCOTUS decision on Connor V Graham which is the defining decision on police use of force.

    The prosecution are not really trying to win, they are putting on a show very much like the Zimmerman trial. The purpose is to create as much division as possible which will then be deployed for political ends … in that sense the verdict is irrelevant.

  66. Scott Osmond says:

    Sorry, that should read after the second. Third od would be bag and tag. Because if you do something that stupid you are obviously trying to die and we wouldn’t want to get in the way of freedom of choice would we?

  67. Muddy says:

    Albatross says:
    April 3, 2021 at 6:43 pm

    Yeah sure. Just like three of them could easily get him into the back of the squad car.

    So in the circumstances, they performed the task to the best of their ability, according to their experience and training?

    That’s not a rhetorical, nor a sarcastic question. I’m not an expert. I’m responding to the emotive, pavlov responses from earlier.

  68. Roger says:

    Was it possible for Officer Chauvin to manoeuvre Floyd into such a position?

    There were four officers present; two could probably have managed it, but they didn’t attempt to, instead the knee reportedly remained on the prisoner’s neck for more than two minutes after he lost consciousness. Stupid and unnecessary. But the fact that there is a manslaughter due to negligence charge on the indictment suggests that even the prosecutors know they are over-reaching with the murder charges…or would be in normal circumstances.

  69. LBLoveday says:

    “because someone would surely kill him”.

    They haven’t got Salman Rushdie yet.

  70. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha says:

    Every time I read a comment from Monty I’m reminded that every village needs it’s village idiot.

    Ek rol ap die vloer en lag my gat af…….

  71. Albatross says:

    Roger says:
    April 3, 2021 at 6:55 pm
    Was it possible for Officer Chauvin to manoeuvre Floyd into such a position?

    There were four officers present; two could probably have managed it, but they didn’t attempt to, instead the knee reportedly remained on the prisoner’s neck for more than two minutes after he lost consciousness.

    Kek. Monday morning quarterback says nobody regains consciousness after they pass out, or becoming momentarily unconcious turns a belligerent into a friendly.

  72. Baa Humbug says:

    I know one thing. If I was the cop and this dude said “I can’t breath” I wouldn’t have believed him. It’s a term we’ve heard too much these past 5 years.

  73. C.L. says:

    Roger, the officers stopped trying to put him in the car because of his extreme agitation and allowed him to lie on the ground at his own request.

    The irony here is possibly that Chauvin was trying to be ultra nice for the cameras.

  74. Muddy says:

    O.K.
    I’ve starting to read the article at C.L.’s link, and come across the officers’ not finding a pulse on Floyd. (As noted earlier, I have not watched any of the videos – perhaps I have commented prematurely). To keep the knee on the neck and not try to place him in a supine or recovery position at this point does seem inexplicable.

  75. Viva says:

    There should have been protocols in place for handling drug affected offenders
    Hopefully there will be now

  76. MatrixTransform says:

    There should have been protocols in place for handling drug affected offenders

    you can probably see the nodding dog when you look in the rear-view mirror

  77. Mick Gold Coast QLD says:

    I see here that Constable Chauvin is guilty because he was “staring stupidly”.

    That mindset, that educated objectivity, gets called in for jury duty – aaarrrghhh!

  78. Albatross says:

    Mick Gold Coast QLD says:
    April 3, 2021 at 8:01 pm
    I see here that Constable Chauvin is guilty because he was “staring stupidly”.

    That mindset, that educated objectivity, gets called in for jury duty – aaarrrghhh!

    Exactly my thoughts Mick.

  79. stackja says:

    Who was supposedly caring for Floyd? Why were police needed? Which bureaucrat failed? Blame only the last one? Who was first years ago? I don’t expect any proper answers. Leftist narrative is required only it seems.

  80. Albatross says:

    This is now a Citizen-only thread:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_urWSSZgwU

  81. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha says:

    That mindset, that educated objectivity, gets called in for jury duty – aaarrrghhh!

    There was a piece in the media, in the U.K., a few years ago, that claimed that, of your average British jury of “twelve good men and true”, two would be illiterate, and two more unable to comprehend any bar the simplest of evidence placed before them.

  82. JC says:

    Ronery of course never completed 8th grade.

  83. Mick Gold Coast QLD says:

    Viva says at 7:40 pm:

    “There should have been protocols in place for handling drug affected offenders
    Hopefully there will be now”

    “Hopefully” 😂😂 the many published reviews in the past 10 or 11 months, explaining the formal protocols used by Minneapolis Police over and over again – the protocols that Chauvin followed – will be discovered by commenters who care for facts.

    Try hard, Viva, to think about what public servants spend most of their time on – p… r… o… c… processes, good, good; and p… r… o… c… procedures, oh, excellent; and s… w… m… safe work method statements. Lovely, here’s a lolly.

  84. stackja says:

    Meanwhile in Chicago and NYC. Fewer police, so less crime, of course.

  85. stackja says:

    Any evidence of Floyd being uncooperative?

  86. Albatross says:

    Kim says:
    April 3, 2021 at 8:40 pm

    Sorry Kim. This thread is citizen-only now.

  87. Viva says:

    Mick from the Goldie

    I am well aware that knee on the neck was an approved method of restraining offenders in the Minneapolis Police Dept

    I can only assume that applied to violently resistant suspects not people who are clearly in physical distress following an overdose

    Ps I don’t post here often
    Sarky types like you act as a good reminder to keep it that way

  88. Mick Gold Coast QLD says:

    You express an opinion, not lucid, and complain when you get a response to that lack of clarity? Oh dear.

    “Sarky types”

    “Sarky”? Is that what the kiddies use in Year 9 now? What does it mean?

  89. Albatross says:

    Viva says:
    April 3, 2021 at 9:12 pm
    […]
    Ps I don’t post here often
    Sarky types like you act as a good reminder to keep it that way

    You shouldn’t post here. Even our trolls have a thicker hide than you do, and they’re contemptible.

  90. BorisG says:

    The appeal will be interesting however, although Minnesota is so deep-blue he probably won’t get a fair hearing there either.

    Minnnesota convinced and jailed a black cop for killing a white Australian woman all right. The left cried racism but to no avail.

  91. Viva says:

    Sorry Mick
    Scenic Railways has my attention at the moment
    Find someone else to joust with
    You’re spoilt for choice here lol

  92. BorisG says:

    The guy was unarmed, did not attack anyone, and while on drugs, was walking fine until the cop put him in this stranglehold, and then his life ended. Manslaughter is obvious to me. Murder would be strange. I am sure had he been a right wing activist, CL would be calling him the cop a murderer. Just like in the case of a poor Australian woman.

    All this cries of jurors lying of being impartial etc, is unfounded conspirological nonsense of a refined variety.

  93. BorisG says:

    You shouldn’t post here.

    Albdatross the boss, do you own this place? If not, then fuck off please.

  94. JC says:

    Boris

    One thing. He passed a fraudulent $20 note, which is why the cops became involved.

  95. Arky says:

    The whole video.
    Fuck those cops.

  96. MatrixTransform says:

    all the bobble-heads are come

    we are bobble

    you will be assimilated

    (not you JC)

  97. BorisG says:

    JC, but this is not a violent crime is it?

  98. Chris M says:

    He passed a fraudulent $20 note, which is why the cops became involved.

    Really. Totally deserved it then. And snuffing him was apparently less trouble than using handcuffs.

  99. MatrixTransform says:

    or Arky.

    fuck them all
    the dealers, the users, the cops, the politicians.

    London to a brick …

    I choose the brick

  100. Tel says:

    One thing. He passed a fraudulent $20 note, which is why the cops became involved.

    That’s why they showed up, but they very quickly realized the guy was cranked and behaving decidedly oddly. Personally, I think the “War on Drugs” has been a colossal failure, and the police should not get involved, and this is one more example of how it can go wrong … but the cops are trained to follow procedure and Chauvin followed the procedure … in a fair trial he would be found not guilty.

    This is obviously enough a political trial, and the incident has been and will continue to be used for political purposes. The fact that BLM not only has ignored the incredible hardship foisted on the black community by the “War on Drugs” but also openly put forward their goal to destroy the black family unit tells you all you need to know about where this is going. The best thing that could possibly happen is massive numbers of black Americans realize what they are dealing with and stand up to reject Marxism … I hope that happens, I know there’s good people out there, but I have no idea where it might end up.

  101. candy says:

    Chauvin’s vacant look was because he just doing what he thought was his job, restraining a drugged and large muscly man who may turn violent at any moment, and he was confused that people were staring. That was the vacant look.

    He simply could not compute that Floyd was dying. He just did not know. It just did not register with him what was happening. Lack of training, someone not amenable to training or just too many drug addled criminals to deal with and that this one was in an actual health emergency was rare, but in no way would he wake up in the morning go to work and think, I will kill a black man today and go to jail for ever.

  102. BorisG says:

    they very quickly realized the guy was cranked and behaving decidedly oddly.

    What is ‘oddly’? Was he violent?

    As for political implications – of course the way it was used for political purposes is disturbing. And why large layers of the public buy this nonsense about this violent criminal is beyond me. Sure politicians and activists use it for political ends but the general public ?

  103. Rex Anger says:

    Albdatross the boss, do you own this place? If not, then fuck off please.

    You first, stooge.

  104. BorisG says:

    but in no way would he wake up in the morning go to work and think, I will kill a black man today and go to jail for ever.

    Of course not. No one will claim that I think, but they will claim gross disregard for human life.

  105. Rex Anger says:

    . And why large layers of the public buy this nonsense about this violent criminal is beyond me. Sure politicians and activists use it for political ends but the general public ?

    Because you fools are so easily programmed. I mean, look at your post above:

    The guy was unarmed, did not attack anyone, and while on drugs, was walking fine until the cop put him in this stranglehold, and then his life ended. Manslaughter is obvious to me. Murder would be strange. I am sure had he been a right wing activist, CL would be calling him the cop a murderer. Just like in the case of a poor Australian woman.

    And especially:

    All this cries of jurors lying of being impartial etc, is unfounded conspirological nonsense of a refined variety.

    That’s Collaborator Bob- and Benito M0ntylini-level hysteria and bullshit. Especially when you admit to agreeing that the entire trial is comlletely politicised and justice will not be done, either way.

    Every emotive button that could be pressed in your psyche, has been. Hard. And you, ostensibly wise and aware enough to know the triggers and methods, then wonder why it is all so appealing?

  106. BorisG says:

    Mohammed Noor was convicted of third degree murder for killing Justine Diamond Under Minnesota law, third-degree murder is defined as “a person causing the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and without regard for human life, but without intent to cause the death of any person”

    I would not be surprised if chauvin is convicted of this.

  107. BorisG says:

    when you admit to agreeing that the entire trial is comlletely politicised and justice will not be done, either way.

    Nonsense. I believe in the US justice system, by and large. The trial will be used by politicians but I what happens in court is not pilitical.

  108. Rex Anger says:

    Nonsense. I believe in the US justice system, by and large. The trial will be used by politicians but I what happens in court is not pilitical.

    I wish I had your faith in fallible human beings.

    Especially when it has been shown that even SCOTUS and our own Courts will bend from delivering Justice as intended, when other agendas are in play…

  109. Arky says:

    I don’t think there’s a homicide conviction there.
    But if their normal initial approach to a suspect what was seen here, it’s no wonder they have lost the public in those areas.
    After minute 16 of that video, get your bloody knee off him. He’s handcuffed, unresponsive, dying and not going anywhere.

  110. mundi says:

    I think several of you have way way to much failth in US juries.

    If you want to know how stupid they are… just look at the Oj Simpson and Pell cases.

    Juries are easy to manipulate because they are lay people.

    In Simpsons case the jury was simply overloaded with information. All the actaul hard scientific evidence was presented in the first few hours and not contested. The defense then spent days and days days on trivial nonsense. But it worked. The jury forget about the hard evidence and accepted the constructed narrative.

    Pells case was even more disconcerting. In that case the prosecution was able to flip the jury by getting them to make a one logical. Instead of each sequential requirement reducing the likelihood, the jury saw them as parrallel opporunities – which increased the likelihood. Just one simple logical mistake (thinking about proparility in parrallel instead of serial) is enough to go from almost zero evidence (i.e way below ‘reasonable doubt’) to 100% guilty.

  111. BorisG says:

    Especially when it has been shown that even SCOTUS and our own Courts will bend from delivering Justice as intended, when other agendas are in play…

    In case of Pell which was as political as they come, our High Court did not waver.

  112. BorisG says:

    I think several of you have way way to much failth in US juries.

    If you want to know how stupid they are… just look at the Oj Simpson and Pell cases.

    Sure. Unfortunately we don’t know any better. In Israel there are no juries. My second uncle was a senior judge in Israel and believes contemporary laws are so complex, it is impossible for people to understand without legal training.

    I also heard form real jurors in WA how they lost faith in the jury system. Yet take it away, and we will hear screams that the last power it taken away by corrupt elite…

  113. Rex Anger says:

    In case of Pell which was as political as they come, our High Court did not waver

    It should never have reached that stage.

    And everyone in the legal profession knew it.

    Less greaseweaselling from you please, Boris…

  114. Tel says:

    What is ‘oddly’? Was he violent?

    The shopkeeper who reported the fraud/theft whatever you want to call it, described Floyd as drunk. I don’t know exactly what gave that impression but must have been something.

    The police arrested Floyd sitting in the driver’s seat of a parked car … when they tried to put him into the patrol car he suddenly became claustrophobic and freaked out saying he could not breathe … even though he was not claustrophobic in the first car. One of the police got the impression he might have been on PCP. Floyd wriggled his way out of the patrol car and fell on the ground which is when Chauvin jumped on him. That’s not outright violent aggression on Floyd’s part but it is resisting arrest and multiple people had observed there was something wrong with him. The police had already called for medical help at that stage and were holding him until the medics got there.

    I already said that I don’t support the “War on Drugs” and you have strategically ignored that information … but the individual police officers do need to follow the procedure they are given, not my idea of what might be a nice idea. Floyd was clearly intoxicated with something, and gave the appearance of needing an ambulance … I’m not an expert on the effects of caffeine / THC / methamphetamine / fentanyl cocktail mixtures and how to distinguish that from a regular PCP dose or someone who was faking it … neither are you I would guess.

  115. m0nty says:

    Monty’s hero – Joe Biden – is currently presiding over the worst Latino child detention and sex trafficking disaster in US history.

    Mmyes, Matt Gaetz is in a lot of trouble.

  116. BorisG says:

    It should never have reached that stage.

    I agree. It was a shame.

  117. BorisG says:

    I already said that I don’t support the “War on Drugs” and you have strategically ignored that information …

    I also agree war on drugs is a monumental failure. I also support locking up drug lords until a better solution is found. But this guy wasn’t dealing or anything.

  118. BorisG says:

    That’s not outright violent aggression on Floyd’s part but it is resisting arrest

    in my book resisting arrest for a non-violent offence does not call for this kind of use of force. But I understand US police forces have different standards.

  119. m0nty says:

    I was the first to post the Chauvin video here at Catallaxy. Initially, I was outraged by what I saw.

    And then you got your talking points from your usual sources about how it was actually the black man’s fault that he was choked to death by a white dude.

    Your first instincts were right. Chauvin may be a product of a racist system so it’s not all his fault, but the system only changes when cases like this affirm the rights of the (literally) downtrodden.

  120. JC says:

    Mmyes, Matt Gaetz is in a lot of trouble.

    Funny old world, Monster. Bunter Hiden takes money from Burisma, and the CCP, screws underage girls including his relative – gets a $2million book deal.
    Accusations about Gaetz are unproven and he’s in trouble,

  121. BorisG says:

    how it was actually the black man’s fault that he was choked to death by a white dude.

    Monty, how relevant is skin colour of either man? Research by none other than Washington Post shows the number of unarmed white men shot by police is about the same as of black ones (in proportion to the number of crimes committed by both groups), but you do not hear about these cases in the media. When an innocent white Australian woman was killed by police in the same city of Minneapolis, there was no mass demonstrations, no looting, no calls to defund police…

    Give me one statistic that suggests US police has a racist bias.

  122. m0nty says:

    A white person calling a non-violent black person who died from choking by a white policeman a “nuisance” is just plain racism. No other word for it. At least you are being obvious about it, CL. No doubt about your meaning.

  123. Arky says:

    who died from choking by a white policeman

    ..
    No, he didn’t.
    Or at the very least, that is an unproven conjecture on your part.

  124. BorisG says:

    Accusations about Gaetz are unproven

    JC, to be fair, accusations against either Biden are also unproven. They were actually first uncovered by the New York Times, who was very proud of the story and would have destroyed Biden beyond repair had Trump/Giuliani not screwed up by jumping the gun with their smelly interference in the poor country. As WSJ wrote in their critique:

    Even so, Mr. Trump came within a whisker of winning because it turned out millions of Americans felt more threatened by the lockdowns than the virus.

    And when your opponent hands you a gift like Hunter Biden, whose drug-fueled influence peddling, remember, was first reported by mainstream institutions like the New York Times, ABC News and the New Yorker, don’t turn the story back on yourself with a foolish and unnecessary call to the Ukrainian president. Shut up. Let the media carry the ball. Would Hillary have made this mistake? Did she put her fingerprints anywhere near the Steele dossier? Of course not. And when Hunter’s laptop surfaced, the mainstream press would have covered it because Hunter was still THEIR story.

  125. BorisG says:

    Chauvin may be a product of a racist system

    There is zero evidence that race was a factor.

  126. dover_beach says:

    No, he didn’t.
    Or at the very least, that is an unproven conjecture on your part.

    Indeed, as the reported:

    Hennepin County Chief Medical Examiner Andrew Baker’s report which found no evidence of injury or trauma to Floyd’s neck

    People chocked to death usually have bruising, etc. around the neck and throat.

  127. BorisG says:

    A white person calling a non-violent black person who died from choking by a white policeman a “nuisance” is just plain racism.

    You have a peculiar definition of racism. If a white man criticises a black man, it is not necessarily racism. If a white man criticises and insults a black man unfairly, it is not necessarily racism. There may be a host of reasons other than race.

    I am disgusted that this serial criminal and junkie become a national hero because his death in police hands was filmed. And I do not care if he was white, black or whatever.

  128. BorisG says:

    Just to clarify, I think he did not deserve to die. But he made choices in life that greatly increased the likelihood of premature death.

    If you take part in criminal activity (even non-violent), associate with other criminals, take all sorts of drugs, resist arrest when caught, you are very likely to die early due to overdose, violent disputes with associates, brawl, damage to health, or, like in this case, encounter with police.

    It still looks like he died as a result of police action, but the medical report is interesting.

  129. Dover Beach:

    Hennepin County Chief Medical Examiner Andrew Baker…found no evidence of injury or trauma to Floyd’s neck or to any other part of his body

    …and that’s the salient fact.
    Add to it that the miscreant had consumed the drugs voluntarily – knowing what it would do to him from a previous act – and this is where the case should focus.
    Had George shot himself in the head and succumbed to his injuries within ten minutes, there is no way the wallopers would be in this amount of shit. The idiot took his own life in an act of gross stupidity.
    Perhaps IV Narcan (Narcotic reverser) may have pulled him back from the brink, but there was no one there with the drug or the expertise to administer it.
    Time for a Winston Churchill quote
    “Just because a man is unpopular doesn’t mean he should be gaoled.”
    (Bad memory here, but someone will know the reference.)

  130. Mick of the Gold Coast:

    Try hard, Viva, to think about what public servants spend most of their time on – p… r… o… c… processes, good, good; and p… r… o… c… procedures, oh, excellent; and s… w… m… safe work method statements. Lovely, here’s a lolly.

    You cheated Viva.
    Should have gotten an elephant stamp as well, you meanie.

  131. Boris G:

    The guy was unarmed, did not attack anyone, and while on drugs, was walking fine until the cop put him in this stranglehold, and then his life ended. Manslaughter is obvious to me. Murder would be strange.

    Boris you really need to read the American Thinker article because what you are touting is a fabrication that refuses to admit the video evidence.
    Here.

  132. Albatross says:

    m0nty says:
    April 4, 2021 at 12:44 am

    What a fat and stupid post.

  133. min says:

    Re Floyd case I thought it came out in court that Police officer had turned him on side , correct medical procedure and then paramedics called . Anyone who has seen someone reacting to Ice in hospitals where it takes a number to control would take extra precautions with a huge strong man who was under the influence of drugs and not knowing which one . Have they shown police video yet?

  134. Kneel says:

    “The police arrested Floyd sitting in the driver’s seat of a parked car … “

    Yes – according to Floyd’s girlfriends testimony, both he and she were opioid addicts. It seems the other person in the car may have been a drug dealer. It also seems Floyd may have just purchased drugs from him, because the judge said video showed what appeared to be a “white spot” on Floyd’s tongue that rapidly disappeared.
    So, Floyd may have consumed it immediately rather than risk a drug charge.
    The other person in the car has indicated they will use their 5th amendment right to silence – which may be due to legal advise. If he testified that he sold Floyd drugs and it was found that Floyd’s death was drug related, he would be liable for prosecution for 3rd degree murder.

    As per my previous post, Floyd assigned his condition not to drug use, but to exercise when police asked – that may have been a fatal mistake, quite literally.
    Clearly, as several people have testified, Floyd appeared to be under the influence of something (ie, not sober), but police were unsure exactly what that was. He also appeared to be manic. He also presented as a physically large individual. He wanted to be laid down, not in a sitting position.

    All in all, a very difficult position for the police – If he was manic and on, say, PCP, there was a risk he would cause physical injury or death to either police or by-standers in a completely unpredictable way, which would justify the use of forcible restraint.

    As to Chauvin’s “failure” to check his condition, it is extremely likely that Chauvin felt his personal safety was at risk from a mob of by-standers, and hence spent more time observing those by-standers than perhaps he should have.

    It’s tragic to be sure that Floyd died. It is certainly justified to have some sort of investigation into the cause of his death and the surrounding circumstances.

    It is somewhat telling, in my view, that the city itself offered compensation to Floyd’s family – while Chauvin’s trial was still on-going. This would seem to indicate that the city officials may believe that Chauvin himself was simply following procedure and did nothing wrong – if they felt Chauvin was in the wrong, then why would they fund compensation, rather than pass that obligation onto the “perpetrator” of the “crime”?

  135. Albatross says:

    BorisG says:
    April 4, 2021 at 1:20 am
    Just to clarify, I think he did not deserve to die.

    What a twisted view of justice. Desserts have nothing to do with it.

  136. m0nty says:

    All in all, a very difficult position for the police – If he was manic and on, say, PCP, there was a risk he would cause physical injury or death to either police or by-standers in a completely unpredictable way, which would justify the use of forcible restraint.

    Ah yes, let’s consult an expert:

    Derek Chauvin used force that was “totally unnecessary” when he knelt on George Floyd’s neck for nine minutes and 29 seconds while Floyd was handcuffed and no longer a threat, the longest-serving officer in the Minneapolis department testified Friday.

    Capping a dramatic first week of testimony in Chauvin’s murder trial, Lt. Richard Zimmerman, a 35-year veteran who leads the department’s homicide division, questioned the reasoning and technique behind Floyd’s restraint, saying the man no longer appeared to be a threat.

    “Pulling him down to the ground, facedown and putting your knee on the neck for that amount of time is just uncalled for,” Zimmerman testified. “I saw no reason the officers felt they were in danger, if that’s what they felt, and that’s what they would have to feel to be able to use that kind of force.”

    Zimmerman, who was called to the scene of Floyd’s death at 38th and Chicago on May 25, testified that once someone is handcuffed, “they are not a threat to you at that point” and the amount of force should be immediately reduced. “If your knee is on a person’s neck, that could kill him.”

    The longtime homicide detective, who used to work patrol, said he and other Minneapolis officers had been specifically trained to take particular care with handcuffed suspects and warned to limit use of the prone position, in which suspects are held facedown on the ground, because it can limit a person’s ability to breathe.

    There was no need to keep kneeling on the dude’s neck after he was cuffed.

  137. Mango Man says:

    Kneel: the police evidence against Chauvin has been damning. He and his colleagues were fired immediately. The coroner found murder.
    The specific evidence of police is uniformly definite in pointing to Chauvin breaking procedure – notably in keeping Floyd face down while cuffed by hands behind his back (apparently inhibits breathing). Putting his knee on Floyd’s neck was simply confirmation of intent.

  138. Albatross says:

    He and his colleagues were fired immediately.

    Oh yeah. That’s good evidence buddy.

  139. Albatross says:

    Putting his knee on Floyd’s neck was simply confirmation of intent.

    Huh? You’re a bleeding idiot.

  140. candy says:

    Floyd may well have died without Chauvin’s intervention. It sounds like his respiratory system was depressed enough already and he had definitely OD’d enough, though he would have been saved by ambulance services if he had collapsed in the street.

    I don’t know if jurors will be bothered with medical evidence, though. If they find some form of “innocence” of Chauvin their lives are ruined, mass riots blaming MAGA and Trump still. All Hell will break loose. Manslaughter might prevent the riots. Murder charge should definitely prevent riots.

  141. dover_beach says:

    We’ve gone from Chauvin chocked Floyd with a knee to the neck, and then when we show there were no injuries to neck or throat of Floyd, Monty retreats to the knee hold was ‘unnecessary’ so let’s still find him guilty of manslaughter/ murder, whatever, I have some more donuts to eat!

  142. dover_beach says:

    Choked!

  143. Rex Anger says:

    Kim says:
    April 4, 2021 at 9:16 am

    Coroner on the other hand found murder.

    Wrong, anklebiter. The medical examiner certified the death as massive drug overdose only, with no evidence of injury from Chauvin compressing Flloyd’s neck with his knee.

    The ‘murder’ narrative everyone has been programmed to run with came from a private autopsy, paid for (allegedly) by Flloyd’s family. From Mick of GC’s link to American Thinker:

    …mounting political pressure led to subsequent private autopsy reports, paid for by the family, showing the cause of death as a combination of both fentanyl and asphyxiation from the officer’s knee.

  144. m0nty says:

    You lot keep quoting the Andrew Baker report as credible, yet he ruled the death as a homicide and Chauvin could absolutely still go down for murder if the cause of death was a heart attack caused by him constricting Floyd’s blood flow rather than asphyxiation caused by Chauvin constricting Floyd’s breathing.

    Prosecutors don’t have to prove that Chauvin’s actions alone caused Floyd’s death, according to Minnesota guidelines for jury instructions. According to the state and the defense’s proposed jury instructions, “  ’To cause’ means to be a substantial causal factor in causing the death. … The fact that other causes contribute to the death does not relieve the defendant of criminal liability.”

    Being restrained and pressed upon while lying flat on your stomach can restrict the intake of oxygen and output of carbon dioxide, and reduce blood flow through the heart, leading to a fatal cardiac arrest, said cardiologist Dr. Alon Steinberg, chief of cardiology and medicine at Community Memorial Hospital, based in California.

    Steinberg, who recently published a paper reviewing scientific literature on prone restraint, described Floyd’s death as a “prone restraint cardiac arrest.”

    “When people are in prone restraint and they die, it’s more accurate that it’s a cardiopulmonary arrest as [Baker] says,” said Steinberg. “It’s not asphyxia.”

  145. Kneel says:

    “I saw no reason the officers felt they were in danger, if that’s what they felt, and that’s what they would have to feel to be able to use that kind of force.”

    Heh.
    OK, you saw nothing in the video that you felt made it “reasonable”.
    But you know what?
    You weren’t there.
    Floyd had already lied to the police about the reason for his foaming at the mouth, and several testified that he was obviously intoxicated with something. He was in a manic state. Had Floyd admitted to having taken a depressant, Chauvin may have acted differently. But he didn’t have that information, so perhaps erred on the side of caution – had he failed to restrain Floyd, who then subsequently went on an ice/PCP fueled killing spree or even just damaged property, would Chauvin be held to account for failing to do his duty? Would Chauvin have been held to account for Floyd’s death if Floyd had jumped up, ran off, and had a heart attack? How does one judge such risks with limited and clearly untrustworthy information?

    But perhaps more importantly, and like so many other cases, Chauvin did not have the luxury of considering all the evidence available to him for days, and review video from several angles in slow-motion and zoomed. Not for hours. Not even for minutes. He had to make a judgement call on the spot in seconds, with what little information he had. And his duty was to take that course of action that he deemed presented the least risk to everyone – his fellow officers, the general public and of course the suspect.

    In all, I think Floyd’s death can best be described as “suicide by police” – by his own actions, he placed the police in the position that resulted in them killing him, much as someone carrying a weapon and refusing to disarm at police instruction would.
    Worthy of investigation to be sure, as all deaths where police are involved should be.
    As others have noted, it is clear that murder charges are politically motivated – at best, there may be a case for manslaughter, but even that seems pretty flimsy to me as more and more information comes to light.

  146. dover_beach says:

    Monty and the prosecution are desperate to convict for murder and will confect all manner of plausible scenarios.

    The real disgrace here is the tyranny of low expectations here. As in Georgia, were the left believe that a substantial number of African-Americans can’t identify their DL number plainly marked on their Driver ID, here, they are quite content to ignore or forgive Floyd’s conduct at every moment while judging harshly Chauvin’s conduct and convict him of murder on the flimiest of evidence.

  147. Arky says:

    had he failed to restrain Floyd, who then subsequently went on an ice/PCP fueled killing spree

    ..
    With his hands handcuffed behind him?
    You know, this discussion is fascinating for BOTH sides inability to see what they don’t want to see.
    One side doesn’t want to see the para- military, bully boy utter garbage attitude of the cops, and the other side doesn’t want to see how Floyd contributed to his own demise.
    Try to see the whole thing people.
    There is enough shitful behaviour and blame to cover everyone.

  148. m0nty says:

    I am prepared to see that Floyd contributed to his own demise, sure. He had drugs in his system.

    That doesn’t excuse what the cop did to him, and Chauvin can be convicted for murder even if Floyd contributed.

  149. m0nty says:

    It is instructive that a gentleman calling himself Kneel is defending a cop killing a black man by kneeling on him. The ultimate in nominative determinism.

  150. Kneel says:

    “With his hands handcuffed behind him?”
    ‘Twas a hypothetical, Arky. And even shoving someone to the ground in passing can result in serious injury or even death if they land “just so” on a hard surface. That 65 y.o. asian lady assaulted by a 6’6″ 150kg black man ended up with a broken hip, which is a pretty serious and life changing injury at that age.

    “You know, this discussion is fascinating for BOTH sides inability to see what they don’t want to see.”

    Yes indeed.
    As I noted, it is easy to “monday morning quarterback it” as the Americans would say. Do you defend the SAS where they are accused of “murder” where they are fighting an enemy with no uniform and who doesn’t obey the rules of war? It is a similar situation here, I think – decisions made in necessary haste in an attempt to minimise harm to the most possible extent are often criticised by those who spend hours, days, even weeks pondering the issue – a luxury the “perpetrators” did not and can never have.

    In any case, I feel that due to the bar being “beyond reasonable doubt”, there is sufficient doubt to acquit on all charges. Were the bar “preponderance of evidence”, then it would be a little more difficult, but “beyond reasonable doubt” is a pretty high bar that is not reached in this case, based on my limited knowledge of all the salient events.

    Besides, playing devil’s advocate is often invaluable in exposing preconceived positions, isn’t it? “All cops are bad” is at least as pernicious as “no cops are bad” – clearly some are bad and most are not. Is Chauvin a “bad” cop? I guess it depends on your assumptions, at least to some extent. Fortunately, the law is clear – for criminal matters, it is supposed to assume “not guilty” and prove guilt, and it is supposed to assume good faith while allowing for evidence this is not the case. IMO, there is no “good faith” in a murder charge against Chauvin in this case – manslaughter yes, murder no. And there certainly seems to be no good faith that Chauvin was doing his best to “serve and protect” under very difficult circumstances, including being given obviously false information that constrained his choices.

    As I said, “suicide by police” – he gambled his life by failing to be open and honest with the police, and he lost. God (or perhaps the devil) collected. Not, I think, the outcome anyone involved wanted.
    Not the outcome I would like either.
    But it was his choice to take that path – if the results are less than optimal, then he shoulders at least some of the blame.

  151. Mick Gold Coast QLD says:

    Arky says at 1:21 pm:

    “…
    You know, this discussion is fascinating for BOTH sides inability to see what they don’t want to see.”

    How rude! It is as if contributors are “staring stupidly” at your true truth, eh?

  152. Rex Anger says:

    @ Kneel:

    Is Chauvin a “bad” cop? I guess it depends on your assumptions, at least to some extent.

    That particular meme has received near-incessant ctivation and airplay from about 1 minute after the first story broke.

    Many cities have burned and people lost their lives in the process of feeding that meme, whether it is actually true or not.

  153. Rex Anger says:

    ctivation

    cultivation

  154. Albatross says:

    Arky says:
    April 4, 2021 at 1:21 pm

    t. Everyone is Dumb and Iamverysmart

  155. Kneel says:

    “…defending a cop killing a black man by kneeling on him.”

    Coroner says “combination” of things, the majority of which the officer had no, or limited, knowledge of and no control over. Fortunately for you, we are in a different country or you might potentially face consequences for presenting such a statement as fact, rather than opinion – just sayin’.

    I’m sure your own nominative determinism would suggest “exx cellent” while you drum your fingers together at the fact someone – anyone – has responded to your post without calling you names. That’s gotta be a win for you, eh? And given your apparent predilection for posting questionable if not downright false material and preposterous predictions, clearly somewhat rare as well. Feel free to print it out and frame it, if you so desire – it may be months, even years (if ever), before it happens again, and I wouldn’t want you to miss out in a moment of pique.

  156. Rex Anger says:

    Everyone is Dumb and Iamverysmart

    Don’t you do it…

    #PoliticallyIlliterateLeftistsEverywhere…

  157. Rex Anger says:

    Don’t you do it…

    If we speak its name 3 times, it will reappear…

    Excellent. 😃😃😃

  158. Albatross says:

    I

  159. Albatross says:

    …AM

  160. Kneel says:

    “It is as if contributors are “staring stupidly” at your true truth, eh?”

    That’s a little harsh, IMO. It may surprise you to learn that I actually agree with Arky on the comment you are replying to, despite the fact that many would assume it to be aimed at me.
    I just take it at face value – that he is unsure what really happened and amazed that so many can have a “solid” lean in one direction or the other with so little information.

    In truth, I am too – I just like to have a look at both sides and air the less popular one. Not because I think it’s correct, but because there are always at least two sides to any story and that you should hear both sides before even attempting to come to a conclusion. Often times, I find that playing devil’s advocate can change your opinion on contentious matters – it’s a context thing.

  161. Albatross says:

    LOL. Kim why do you post here? The Scientific American article is absolute propagandistic trash.

  162. Rex Anger says:

    In truth, I am too – I just like to have a look at both sides and air the less popular one. Not because I think it’s correct, but because there are always at least two sides to any story and that you should hear both sides before even attempting to come to a conclusion. Often times, I find that playing devil’s advocate can change your opinion on contentious matters – it’s a context thing.

    And no sooner than you said that, Kneel, did the anklebiter pop up to douse us in yet more leftist propaganda and name-calling…

  163. Rex Anger says:

    But I know at least done here are allergic to science. (ESP you Anger Boy)

    Yet the propaganda you just vomited on this thread had nothing to do with Science (TM) at all, EllenG…

  164. Albatross says:

    BTW you dumb slag, the Medical Examiner’s opinion, based as it is in no forensic evidence, does not have force of law. That’s what courts are for. If you and your ilk had your way, we’d still be living in caves.

  165. Albatross says:

    mUnt, please come in and White Knight for Ellen. She may reward you with a donut.

  166. dover_beach says:

    I am prepared to see that Floyd contributed to his own demise, sure. He had drugs in his system.

    He was already of his face and then swallowed the rest of the stash when the cops arrived. And then he lied and failed to cooperate with police. But let’s convict so some white guy of murder because his actions in retrospect are a little off colour.

    What I find amazing is the reach here. Rather than go for a lower charge where he would still serve 10 or so years Monty and co want life. And if he is beaten to death in prison all the better for the likes of Monty.

  167. Kneel says:

    “In fact both the medical examiner and the private autopsy found Floyd died by homicide.”

    Yes Kim. Even if they found he died solely from a drug overdose, this would be the case – the person who sold him the drugs could be charged with 3rd degree murder, which is, of course, homicide.

    “…evidence in the court from police that Chauvin did not follow procedure…”
    Umm, perhaps more accurately, that they have no reason to believe, based on video of the event, that he followed procedure. There is more context than just the video evidence. It’s certainly true that it appears that way – but we have yet to hear the defense arguments for why he did what he did. And such may change those opinions.

    As in other posts, I’m not actually defending Chauvin as such – I am presenting a plausible defense that a reasonable person could see as “reasonable doubt”. Not because I believe it to be accurate, but because so many seem to have decided he is guilty based only on the evidence of the prosecution. Let’s hear both sides first, eh?

  168. Rex Anger says:

    As in other posts, I’m not actually defending Chauvin as such – I am presenting a plausible defense that a reasonable person could see as “reasonable doubt”. Not because I believe it to be accurate, but because so many seem to have decided he is guilty based only on the evidence of the prosecution. Let’s hear both sides first, eh?

    A reasonable preumption.

  169. Kneel says:

    “And no sooner than you said that, Kneel, did the anklebiter pop up to douse us in yet more leftist propaganda and name-calling…”

    Water off a ducks back to me Rexy – “sticks and stones” and all that. Terribly old fashioned I guess, but there you go.

    Text based media is notorious for misunderstandings, and this blog is no different. I try to be precise, and I try to give the benefit of the doubt to all and sundry on each case individually. After some time, it becomes obvious who deserves it and who doesn’t. I feel confident you can all draw your own conclusions on who I feel might fall into those categories, so I won’t elaborate further here.

  170. Albatross says:

    “Hey everyone, keep an open mind”, they say, as they conduct a clearly politically-motivated prosecution, and taint the jury pool by blasting untruths out 24/7 for months. Yeah, right…

  171. Albatross says:

    What I find amazing is the reach here.

    Why? These are vicious, demonic people.

  172. Rex Anger says:

    Water off a ducks back to me Rexy – “sticks and stones” and all that. Terribly old fashioned I guess, but there you go

    That was directed at the ankle biter, rather than you Kneel.

    I have no contentions with what you said, and would like to see an actual impartial trial, outcome, and impartial reporting of same.

    But as Albatross has just said, and the trollherd keep demonstrating, there is far too much political mileage at play for a certain group of political zealots with a malicious agenda, to allow such a thing to happen.

    It suggests very strongly that they fear exposure (and the consequences of the same) far more than they fear any injustice.

    And deep down, that is what ultimately everyone on the Cat is arguing. Not about injustice, but rather the prospect (or otherwise) of the exposure, discrediting and dismantling of the Leftwits’ agenda and the punishment of its agitators and actors.

    And the Leftwits cannot have that. At any cost…

  173. Dr Faustus says:

    On an Easter note, if Floyd’s family had the choice between miraculously having George back safe and sound and keeping the $27 million…

  174. Mick Gold Coast QLD says:

    Kneel says at 3:02 pm:

    “It is as if contributors are “staring stupidly” at your true truth, eh?”

    That’s a little harsh, IMO. It may surprise you to learn that I actually agree with Arky on the comment you are replying to …”

    This is fun.

    Don’t talk to me about your “harsh”, talk to your china Arky – I was merely quoting him back to himself (you can find it yourself further back, up the page).

    Or is it that you too can measure intelligence and assess what a stranger is thinking from a Fox Movietone News reel teletyped from 9,000 miles away?

  175. Kneel says:

    “But I know at least done [sic – presumably “some”] here are allergic to science.”

    Well I at least have some experience in science – I worked for CSIRO for some few years as an electronics design engineer interfacing medical ultrasound machines to high speed data collection harware, so I have a passing acquaintance with the practicalities of science in general and medical science in particular.
    I have to say that in my experience – and speaking from an engineering point of view – the medical sciences tend to be somewhat speculative, considerably conservative, and heavily stats based. I have no doubt that all concerned have the best intentions and use some complex tools, but we are a long way from a definitive anything apart from death vs life in any particular case, and not always even that. And further that this is regularly downplayed by most practitioners because the truth is somewhat confidence sapping to put it mildly.
    Make of that what you will…

  176. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha says:

    On an Easter note, if Floyd’s family had the choice between miraculously having George back safe and sound and keeping the $27 million…

    Something tells me they would rather the $27 million?

  177. Rex Anger says:

    have to say that in my experience – and speaking from an engineering point of view – the medical sciences tend to be somewhat speculative, considerably conservative, and heavily stats based.

    And practical medicine and Med Science as I knew it Kneel (2008-19), is traditionally hyper-cautious and extremely empirical in its practice.

    The only more risk-averse group you’d find is insurance adjusters.

    However, this has changed quite spectacularly in this last 8 or so years, as a new age of pandemicism and Lysenkoised medical thinking has emerged.

    Lotsa money in pushing the Narrative, I suppose…

  178. Kneel says:

    “Don’t talk to me about your “harsh”, talk to your china Arky …”

    Perhaps I am wrong, however it was my take that Arky was suggesting that some are working backwards from conclusion to supporting evidence, and ignoring contra-indicative evidence – that he was expressing amazement that this was done, rather than accusing them of being unintelligent.
    So “stupid” as in “silly”, “illogical” etc, rather than “dumb”, “unintelligent” etc – the specific, rather than the general, if you like.
    As I said, text based media can often be misinterpreted, so I may be wrong – either about what he meant, or what you meant.
    I can at least be sure of what I meant, even if others cannot. I hope I have clarified sufficiently that you now see my point, even should you disagree with it.

  179. Kneel says:

    “…is traditionally hyper-cautious and extremely empirical in its practice.”

    My experience was from the early to mid ’90’s, and it certainly gels with yours – allowing for differences between experimental and established procedures, as my experience was more at the experimental end, while yours appears to be from the established end. The conferences were interesting…

    As a “pat myself on the back” exercise, what I built led to 3D and 4D ultrasound (3D = 3 dimension structure, 4D = 3D plus velocity, usually blood). When I was involved in it, in commercial machines all you got was a 2D “slice” and maybe velocity if you were lucky. By grabbing the raw data, you could do beam forming in software, have much finer control of TGC, send chirps and all sorts of other “fun” stuff – “fun” from an engineering perspective that is. It was very challenging work, I enjoyed it immensely and learnt a lot. Pity the office politics was so toxic…

  180. Dr Faustus says:

    Something tells me they would rather the $27 million?

    Wild guess there.

  181. Googoomuck says:

    There are a few comments here about the coroner saying Floyd’s death was a murder. From a US forensics site

    When a medical examiner identifies a manner of death as “homicide,” they are not drawing a legal conclusion. When a death is not from disease, homicide is simply one of the five permissible classifications of death. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 130A-385 (the others are “accident, suicide, … execution by the State, or undetermined”). According to the National Association of Medical Examiners (NAME), “[h]omicide occurs when death results from a volitional act committed by another person to cause fear, harm, or death.” In a publication entitled A Guide for Manner of Death Classification, NAME specifically notes “[i]t is to be emphasized that the classification of Homicide for the purposes of death certification is a ‘neutral’ term and neither indicates nor implies criminal intent, which remains a determination within the province of legal processes.”

    Tldr: medical examiners definition of homicide is not the same as the legal system.

    I hope Chauvin gets off. Floyd was simply overdosed and the EMTs got there too late. He had previous form for swallowing all his drugs when arrested. This probably happened again and his body just couldn’t take any more. The knee on the neck, whilst poor optics, is irrelevant.

  182. BorisG says:

    So the guy died while policeman’s knee was on his neck, yet this police action did not contribute to his death. Sure it is a doubt but not sure it is a reasonable one.

    Reminds me of another recent right wing meme: that many old people who died within a week of a positive Covid test may have died from unrelated causes.

    Equally reasonable.

  183. dover_beach says:

    So the guy died while policeman’s knee was on his neck, yet this police action did not contribute to his death. Sure it is a doubt but not sure it is a reasonable one.

    If the throat/ neck shows no sign trauma why would it be reasonable to draw the inference that the knee to the neck was the cause/ contributory of death? Is there evidence of the same knee hold causing death in other jurisdictions where police commonly use this hold? If there is, how prevalent is it given the commonality of its use? BTW, you seem to be using reasonable as if it meant merely plausible/ possible.

  184. Rex Anger says:

    Welp, given that Viktoristan considers plausibity sufficient to jail an innocent man these days, and then uphold the original sentence at appeal because 2/3rds felt the witness was believable…

  185. Tator says:

    Monty’s claim that it is a homicide because the final autopsy report states it is.
    Monty obviously hasn’t read the media release from the Hennepin County ME office that actually clarifies that as a statutory function of the medical examiner, as part of death certification for purposes of vital statistics and public health. Manner of death is not a legal determination of culpability or intent, and should not be used to usurp the judicial process.
    Press release from 1st June 2020

  186. Rex Anger says:

    @ Tator-

    Benito M0ntylini cares only for the side and the Narrative that gives him the best feelz.

    He saw the word, like all his co-ideologists did, and started shrieking and piling on.

    Facts are irrelevant, and all too often a mere inconvenience…

  187. BorisG says:

    If the throat/ neck shows no sign trauma why would it be reasonable to draw the inference that the knee to the neck was the cause/ contributory of death?

    The guy yelled he can’t breathe and then died… It sounds totally implausible to me given the circumstances. Mathematically proven – no. I am neither a forensic medical expert nor a lawyer. We have to wait and see how it plays out. I am reasonably confident in the judicial system.

    To all those who think the trial cannot be impartial, remember all those shootings where police were acquitted.

  188. dover_beach says:

    The guy yelled he can’t breathe and then died… It sounds totally implausible to me given the circumstances. Mathematically proven – no. I am neither a forensic medical expert nor a lawyer. We have to wait and see how it plays out. I am reasonably confident in the judicial system.

    Floyd was yelling ‘I can’t breathe’ before Chauvin touched him. That is plain from the police video. Body cam video shown in the last two days indicates the knee may have been on the shoulder blade, not on Floyd’s neck. Further, it appears he was in the car before the police arrive with his drug dealer, and it may that the dealer was giving Floyd drugs laced with fentanyl unbeknowst to Floyd. This drug dealer is also now pleading the fifth. Toxicology also shows he had three times the lethal dose of fentanyl. I suppose it still sounds implausible to you?

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